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Very Minor Idea: Alternate to 'Mark'

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Padre Dante, Jun 29, 2010.

  1. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    [Background to this post] I recently decided to start a new character on a different shard than my main one. In this way, I wouldn't be able to "lean" on my more advanced, and built up characters for armor, weapons, gold, etc. So far, this has been new, fun, and exciting. But ultimately, there has been one frustrating hiccup - marking runes.

    I have found that to mark runes - most likely a necessity to this game - you are forced to have magery on an account. No other skill will allow you to do this. So for training, hunting, searching, exploring purposes, I was kind of restricted to where I could get to easily, quickly, and safely (not a bad thing for a new character, but still...).

    So as a solution, I made a character with magery. Unfortunately, finding a mark scroll isn't the easiest thing. It's a circle 6 scroll, not able to be purchased from a vendor. A quick search online for player vendors with mark scrolls came up with single ones in the ten's of thousands of gold pieces.

    My suggestion - since the chivalry skill has minimum spells, and could use a little changing (i.e. why take the skill above, say 80?), how hard would it be to add a Mark spell to the Chivalry skill spell set? I think it would be a great alternative for new accounts, since a "warrior" class is probably the first a new player will start out with.

    You know, just an idea...flame away...
     
  2. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    I like the idea and have been saying the same thing for a long time now. We need another way to mark runes besides having to use a mage.

    *waits for the 'no, that would hurt the mage class' posts to start popping up*
     
  3. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    Maybe some item that could be crafted by a scribe: a rune marker of some kind, that might take higher mana or more resources than a mark scroll to use, so that a mage still has an advantage in marking.
     
  4. Tazar

    Tazar Guest

    A while back, I created a new character on a strange shard much as you did. I generally play a mage and one of the trickier (and more fun) things to do was to try to fill my first spellbook without assistance from other players. It took a while to do as I took on progressively harder and harder monsters to get a scroll drop.

    As an alternative... +15 on ring/bracelet, + magery of 15 or so on a spellbook would get you to 45. Without going to an expensive arty, you'd then only need about 15 real skill to be able to cast mark - once you find that spell scroll.
     
  5. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    I found myself in an infinite loop...

    (1) my new character needs marked runes.
    (2) I know! Make a mage character to mark runes!
    (3) [new mage built with 50 magery] - oh wait, I need to get a mark scroll :-(
    (4) search vendors - mark scrolls cost 25k
    (5) I can get gold with my new character!
    (6) Oh poop, I was waiting on marked runes to make gold/train...oh I know...my new character needs mark runes!
    (7) rinse and repeat.

    Or...allow a new spell in Chivalry to mark a rune. I mean, does that really take that much away from the mage class? I'm not talking about gate travel or summoning creatures. Just a way to fast travel to locations I have taken the time to find through exploration.
     
  6. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    This is the obligatory 'no, that would hurt the mage class' post. NOT!

    Actually, I like Saunders' idea ... a scribe creates a tool for rune marking. We have tinkers making pens, etc ... why shouldn't a scribe be able to make something a Warrior would/could use ... besides the scrolls? <shrug>
     
  7. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    a really long time ago, in a FoF or something, devs stated they would look into this. something along the lines of letting players use mark scrolls successfully. Lots of people have come and gone since then. Don't know if the idea is still out there.
     
  8. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
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    *sigh*

    Is it likely that these were the old gold colored non-rare rare mark scrolls and not just the regular old ones?
     
  9. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    Didn't even know about those, so probably yes they were.

    And for the record, I understand I can ask others for help, which I did eventually. But now I am ready for some more marked runes and will have to ask yet again. Eventually I'd like to be able to do this myself (hence self sufficiency). New UO players may not be so lucky to understand what is needed/possible. Again, brining me back to wanting a way for non-mages to mark runes. Either through other skills or from scribe-created items (fine idea, also).
     
  10. i personally think that scrolls should be usable by everyone, regardless of magery skill. otherwise, literally what's the point of the scrolls besides filling spellbooks and runebooks?

    since the spells outside of 'utility' use require magery or eval int for magnitude and duration, there wouldn't be any unbalance. hell, weren't ressurection scrolls originally suppose to be a commodity for that mages could sell to non-mage adventurers?

    this would allow non-mages to utilize the following spells, and give new business to scroll vendors:

    everyone can cast circle 1-2

    circle 3:
    telekinesis
    teleport - possibly (isn't range based on magery % though?)

    circle 4:
    recall

    circle 5:
    nothing
    incognito - if changed like for polymorph where you can toggle

    circle 6:
    mark
    dispel - possibly, isn't chance based on magery % though?

    circle 7:
    gate travel
    mass dispel
    polymorph

    circle 8:
    resurrection

    the rest of the spells all depend on actual magery skill and or eval int for any real use.

    the other magic skills' scrolls shouldn't work like this though, since they do not yield utility spells or are craftable.
     
  11. Well, I don't have anything against adding a Mark spell to Chivalry, but I think the easiest way to add this functionality would be to add this to rune books. Just like the recall spells, you could drop the mark scrolls onto rune books to allow you to store them, then mark runes without having the required magery skill.
     
  12. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Mark scrolls at 25k? Oo
    Some people are overabusing the fact that almost noone cares to sell them!
     
  13. Like Arcus pointed out, those are the gold mark scrolls. On a side note, I can't find any "normal" Mark Scrolls on vendors.
     
  14. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    I wouldn't mind this idea - but it still creates the problem for a new character finding the mark scrolls. But this solution would at least be a step in the right direction.

    As Arcus pointed out above, these 25k mark scrolls are the gold (non) rare versions, most likely now used for display over actually casting.
     
  15. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    Here is my no post. No.

    1. multiple char slots

    2. advanced char options

    2.5 Soul Stones

    3. Heaven forbid player interaction.

    4. Items(rings,bracelets, books, scrolls)

    5. Test center, If your want a character that can do it all this is your place.

    :popcorn:
     
  16. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    I think they should add a new item for inscribers to make and sell. A special "mark rune pen". Anyone can use. The cost to make is not cheap, but not outlandish either. Maybe 10 diamonds or something of that nature.

    This doesn't change anything existing, which I can see the "why-fors" of. And gives all the other players a means to mark runes, but at quite a bit more cost than for a mage.
     
  17. I agree with this. The problem is...who would sell them? I've spent days looking at what vendors are selling in search of a few specific items...and I find that they all sell junk, armor, artifacts, BODs, or all of the above.

    Very few sell empty runebooks let alone marked runebooks. House add-ons? Good luck finding them.
     
  18. TullyMars

    TullyMars Sage
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    Just out of curiosity, which shard did you move to?
    I find that those online searches don't show many vendors with basic supplies mostly just the slaughterhouse high end items. Some good ole fashioned footwork (outside of Luna for example) usually finds a vendor shop that will fit your needs. I sell out of marks about once a week myself and know three other stores that stock them as well. But you'd never find them in an online search.
     
  19. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Sorry Saunders, I must have skipped past your post without seeing it.
    So, I agree. :)
     
  20. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    Moved to Great Lakes. I admit to doing only minor footwork in search of vendors outside Luna/Tokuno. Still, with limited gold, and no way to recall back to a town (what a conundrum), I stayed close to moongates. Eventually a very nice individual helped me out and marked a handful of locations.

    Originally from Chessy, which, ironically has cheap mark scrolls for sale (10 for 400).
     
  21. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Ahh, GL! Go to the Yew Moongate (Trammel) and head straight down (SE) to the first clearing. You'll see a building with "YEW" marked on the roof. Go the the building east of that. This is Earte's Emporium, one of the older sellers on GL. There's Mark scrolls there, 10 for 600 gold. It's kept stocked regularly, and you can also leave messages on the bulletin board for special orders.

    The "YEW" building has a rune library too, I believe.
     
  22. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Are you on LA? Depending on add-ons needed I might be able to supply. I also have GM scribe that could do runebooks for you easily enough.

    Er, n/m - I just saw the _SP on your name. But if you do have an LA toon needing stuff drop me a PM and we'll see what I can do for you.
     
  23. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Having runes is a convenience, not a necessity. You can walk anywhere in the game fairly quickly from a moongate.
    Since you don't need runes, and since you could very easily find somebody to make you some for cheap if you want the convenience, I say the developers should spend their time elsewhere.
     
  24. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    You know what's funny?

    The Devs currently think that Chivalry is a SPELLCASTER'S skill. In fact, that's the response I got when inquiring why Chivalry doesn't add into the special move cost reduction, when Bushido & Ninjitsu do....

    Let's see:

    Probably considered a spell:

    Sacred Journey: And, this only gives the Paladin the ability to not be constrained to scrolls & runebooks, the latter no longer needing magery skill, and a human can use a recall scroll at the same level of difficulty as casting a 2nd level spell (roughly 75% chance of success). Probably the weakest case for something being considered a spell of any spell used by any spellcaster in UO.


    Borderline Holy Powers, that might be construed as spells, but aren't in practice:

    Cleanse by Fire: Part of the healing abilities of paladins (see close wounds below).
    Close Wounds: Effectively the traditional laying of hands of certain RPG paladin types, who AREN'T spellcasters until they are high level.
    Dispel Evil: This is more in line with the abilities (Protection from Evil aura) of paper RPG Paladins. Again, no spellcasting involved.
    Holy Light: This is akin to the Turning of undead, later expanded into more broader holy powers (smiting evil), of paper RPG Paladins in D&D3.x/Pathfinder (in which it also takes on aspects of other UO Paladin powers, such as Noble Sacrifice and close wounds). Still not a spell.
    Noble Sacrifice: sacrificing one's self, potentially, to save others. How is this any different from Honorable Execution, except the Paladin loses a LOT more as a cost, 100% of the time (HE only hurts if you fail to kill).
    Remove Curse: Spellcasting in most RPGs, but none of the UO skills that ARE full-fledged spellcasting skills, (that ALL have it in other RPGs) actually have it. As implemented, it's, once again, more in line with the non-spellcasting abilities of traditional RPG paladins.


    NOT Spellcasting: These are little different than the Samurai/Ninjitsu abilities

    Consecrate Weapon: Wow, temporarily makes a weapon 100% in your foe's weakest resist. Again, little different from many innate powers of traditional paladins (in some cases written up as Paladin-specific spell-like abilities/spells in paper RPGs).
    Divine Fury: More of a Second Wind/Berzerker Rage than a spell.
    Enemy of One: In recent editions of D&D, called "Marking a target". DEFINITELY not a spell, and more like a cross between Honorable Execution and Death strike, which the UO devs say AREN'T spells.


    By comparison, NINJITSU is more of a spellcasting skill than Chivalry.
     
  25. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    "or are craftible"...

    Um, all spell scrolls are craftible, you just need a full spellbook. I make necro, spell weaving and mysticism scrolls now and then without any issues.
     
  26. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I honestly don't think it is needed.

    As was mentioned, you can use relatively inexpensive items to get magery high enough to mark on a character; you also can ask most any mage on any shard to mark something for you and they will likely do it if you aren't asking for someplace extremely dangerous.

    This is all about not depending on anyone and not about non-mages being "short-changed". Get out and meet others, ask for help and see what you can do.

    This is the same advice I'd give a new player, and it goes triple for any person who has played for any length of time.

    Warrior types can run to most spots and make plenty of money without needing runes at all. They just can't pour money into their banks... oh wait, yes they can, using bags of sending.

    I played a warrior bard for years without magery. It was annoying at times, but I had no problems getting to most places with a bit of planning.
     
  27. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    A reasonable argument, but I think the others are discussing a tool/item that could be used to mark a rune, but with 0 magery skill. In this sense, it wouldn't be a mark scroll, proper; but rather something entirely different.

    That is, if I understand them correctly.
     
  28. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    Damn, you can't tame pets without a tamer. Lets add the ability to tame to Chivalry too, oh and Animal Lore too, so you can see the stats.

    And if you meet a nice mountain as a new player, you have to train a miner. That just won't do. Make it so chivalry can mine as well.

    And Lumberjack

    And Provoke

    And Discord

    And Blacksmith.

    *out of breath*
     
  29. Borric

    Borric Seasoned Veteran
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    This is a great suggestion. There a a few rune libraries on GL. Find one or two you like and thats all you really need.
     
  30. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    You could go kill monsters which drop 6th level scrolls. Won't take very long. That is how people originally got them. Or you could do that quest that gives you a full spellbook as a reward.

    As for the subject of giving other characters the ability to mark, I am against it. Each class is supposed to have unique abilities. Mages mark runes. You could always ask a mage friend to mark for you.
     
  31. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    Didn't think this post would generate so many responses. But they have all been great, both pro and con to the idea.

    In the end, no doubt, I will be marking runes with the current system, by building up a mage and either buy a/some mark scroll(s) or finding some as loot - or asking others to do it for me.

    And no doubt, each class has its own strengths and weaknesses. I just think adding a mark spell to Chivalry would be incredibly useful to characters both old and new, and also rather un-intruding upon mages. And no, I am not asking for a single character to be able to tame/mine/tailor/t-hunt/cast spells/melee/etc. - though that would be cool (j/k).

    And again, I respect all opinions offered in this thread, same as I am entitled to my own.

    After all, I did end the original post with "flame away..."
     
  32. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    I agree.

    I don't want to be the sole naysayer here (and I can understand why folks want this) but this is a slippery slope to me. We're always moving further and further towards characters being able to do everything themselves. Repair Armor was a major one. That takes away from the interaction.

    What is stopping you from hooking up with a Mage and asking them to mark you a couple locations? The last time I checked this was an MMORPG. You can socialize.
     
  33. Percivalgoh

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    It makes sense to me that if a skill can use a marked rune then that skill should also be able to mark a rune. This would allow easier solo playing so it would be good for players like me and the Op. Although I have a 3 characters capable of marking runes (treasure hunter, tailor/tamer, imbuer). I have 3 chivalry characters who I have to log out to mark a rune.
     
  34. Leprechauns.
    Mermaids.
    An ethical lawyer.
    A debt-free Greece.
    A Bill Clinton who says "no thanks, I'm married" to his secretary.

    Oh, sorry. I thought we were playing a game of "name the mythical creature".
     
  35. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Very good point, and you changed my opinion on this. We do need interaction, exactly of this kind.
     
  36. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    I have been wishing for a mark spell + a gate spell for palidins for a very long time.
    As far as rememedy for your current problem, you can always ask someone in the bank for help marking runes.
     
  37. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest


    This is the post I was waiting to see.

    QFT
     
  38. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    I only bring this up for argument's sake - but I wonder how many people that would be against adding a Mark spell to the Chivalry skill also use the 'Cleanse by Fire', 'Close Wounds', 'Dispel Evil', 'Nobel Sacrifice', and 'Sacred Journey' spells on at least one character? 50% of the Chiv. spells are practically doubles of other Magery spells.

    And for the record, I had already found help from another player in creating a rune book for me before I ever posted this thread. I have no problem using the community, but was simply suggesting what I felt to be the benefit of an alternative to the Mark spell for non-mage classes.
     
  39. Lorax_Pacific

    Lorax_Pacific Lore Master
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    Remember before chiv or any other spell type all characters had magery. Even melee characters had to have magery, which in a way made strict melee characters rare and more powerful.

    Personally, I wish people had to walk more. When I started we had to walk from Vesper to Britain and pass the crossroads. That was a huge blast.

    Marking runes is overrated. You never run in to anyone to interact. One of the best things about UO in the beginning is how close everyone interacted.

    I know what you mean though and would accept having every skill and spell on one character if the developers made it that way, but I don't think it would be good for the game.

    When you log in as a character that has no magery you should pretend you are so amazed at the abilities of the mages. Interract with other mages and not make multiple characters to advance yourself to the ultimate in single player.

    Safe Travels,

    -Lorax
     
  40. Percivalgoh

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    I enjoy cruising around exploring new areas but I like to mark runes so I can go to specific areas with minimal time wastage. For me this game has to a large degree come to time management. I only have a little time to play each day and the more I can get out of it the better. I used to have characters with no magery who had to hoof it or let others gate me. It was all good back when I could spend the extra hours per day.
     
  41. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    You have a strange idea of what qualifies as a double...

    Clease by fire damages the person doing the curing
    Noble Sacrifice nearly kills and totally mana dumps the caster making him almost certain to die in combat
    And all but SJ have their effects firmly grounded in the caster's karma, not eval or actual skill level of the governing skill (magery heals and cures are based on magery skill, magery area of effect skills are based on Eval).

    While I personally wouldn't mind something a non-mage could do to mark (perhaps a craftable item that is consumed or requires charges), I've already made the case higher up in this thread that CHIVALRY IS NOT A SPELLCASTING SKILL, at least not in the classic sense as Magery, Necromancy, Spellweaving or Mysticism. The Chivalric abilities come from the power of belief (the closest thing to what the UO mythos will allow to a cleric - note that the only priests in the game are evil NPC followers of Mondain).

    Paladins, in their original ultima incarnation, could only cast half-power cleric spells (see: Ultima III) - a class of spells not in UO, and only partially approximated secularly in a tiny fraction of the magery spellbase, if only because they couldn't NOT have healing magic in game.

    Once you drop Sacred Journey out of the Paladin list (which it effectively IS, on Siege Perilous, where it and Recall DO NOT WORK), you are left with a power list that approximates not magery, but Bushido & Ninjitsu - and those DO count for weapon special moves (and each require two other skills that also count - unlike Chivalry).

    Dispel Evil: Evasion
    Divine Fury: Confidence
    Holy Light: Momentum Strike, and the Bushido-tied Frenzied Whirlwind special move.
    other buffs: Lightning Strike, Counter Attack
    Healing Spells: Honorable Execution (as it heals on success, penalized on failure - actually, the OPPOSITE effect of Noble Sacrifice)

    If any of the Combat buff skills should be considered spellcasting, it should be Ninjitsu (polymorphing, mirror images (a classic magery power in most other games), invisibility).

    Sorry for semi-hijacking the thread, but in many ways the points are tied together. You, like the Devs, seem to think that Chivalry is a junior league spellcaster's skill, when it's really a karma-based combat multiplier with less "magical" aspects than those skills ALREADY treated as combat skills.
     
  42. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I am a mage and I am still all for it.

    For the OP's immediate prob, skimmed the thread, not sure uf these have been mentioned.

    On any new shard, my first char is always a scribe mage necro. And train him up. That way I can make spellbooks/runebooks for my other chars and mark runes.

    Full necro book you can get by doing the necro quest in haven. But you need to create your char with at least 1 point in necro to get the starting necro book first.

    For magery, do the insciption quest for the undead slayer in haven.

    That will give you a semi filled magery book.

    You can also buy up to lvl 4 spells from npc mages.

    For the rest, go to fan dancers or swoop and loot leftover corpses for scrolls.

    Or you can kill daemons for scrolls up to lvl 7.

    Alternatively, instead of just searching for mark scrolls on vendors, search for vendors that sell full spellbooks.

    A lot of vendors like mine would have full spellbooks with extra properties too. Coz we may be trying to make slayer spellbooks and end up with tons of unwanted leftovers.

    Or do the age old thing, ask at the bank for someone to scribe/sell a mark scroll to you.
     
  43. Metalstorm

    Metalstorm Seasoned Veteran
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    I've always thought it would be cool to see 'wands of marking' sorta like how we used to have 'wands of identification'.

    Only so many charges and when it's empty it's done.
     
  44. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Possibly totally irrelevant, but I'm reading this and remembering that I played for 2 weeks before I discovered rune books existed. How the game has changed.
     
  45. Saunders

    Saunders Lore Keeper
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    The world was literally smaller then, though. (But still big enough for me to be totally lost, often.)
     
  46. WarderDragon

    WarderDragon Babbling Loonie
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    There are actually Priests in Occlo. The old descriptions of the village suggest that the people were only recently introduced to Akalabethan/Britannian Society and have their own belief system. (Although what those beliefs are has never been elaborated on.)
     
  47. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Yomatsu
     
  48. Padre Dante

    Padre Dante Journeyman
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    (I edited your quote by removing a couple paragraphs to save space - but the others were left intact.)

    Basara - You have a strange way of actually agreeing with my main argument in this thread, and I admit to enjoying reading your posts!

    And of course they are double. Who cares if you take a little damage when curing poison with Chiv? I'll take damage to mark a rune, haha. You have a strange idea of what doesn't qualify as a double... There are "spells"/"abilities" in each class that allow for healing, curing, fast travelling, dispelling, and resurrecting. If the minor effects are different, the ultimate outcomes are the same, are they not?

    Am I straight out asking for a Mark "spell" to be added to the Chivalry "abilities"? No (it was only a single suggestion). The whole point of this thread was to point out how useful a non-mage item (be it "spell", "ability", "tool", "kit", "floppy hat", whatever) would be to new characters.

    ^^I did that only because I don't think people are reading this whole thread (who would?). ^^

    And I'm not sure how many times I can say this, but I did get help! And no doubt, this will not get changed, and I have already begun building a mage on my new shard! I have been playing UO now for well over 8 years, and I have done a decent amount of running, searching, exploring, server crossing, boating, dungeon crawling, etc. On the new shard, I would still have to run, boat, "crawl", etc. to each location I wished to mark (initially). I was just hoping to be able to do it without the use of a mage and mark scrolls.

    That was the intent of the original post...
     
  49. Snakeman

    Snakeman UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Premium Wiki Moderator Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    Well 95% you can walk to. You can't walk to Ocllo, nor Underworld Fire Entrance. Both require a boat if you want to get to either.

    I agree with many who have posted. The ablility to craft a Special Mark Scroll/Pen/Etc from a GM Scribe would be a great boost to their crafting skill.
     
  50. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    You can get to the Underworld Fire Entrance by walking.

    You can't get to Ocllo (or many other Islands) by walking, but you can get there without the use of runes, magic, or anything that depends on having a skill or item that isn't obtainable by absolutely everybody.

    The only places I can think of that you cannot get to without needing a rune, skill, or item that isn't obtainable by everybody are Justice Island, the not-yet-complete area in Ter Mur, some cave/dungeon areas that were used for short-term events, and the Doom Gauntlet.