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Vice vs Virtue Review

Discussion in 'UHall' started by JC the Builder, Oct 28, 2014.

?

Do you agree with this assessment?

  1. Yes

    17 vote(s)
    65.4%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    34.6%
  1. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    http://www.jcthebuilder.com/vacancy-vs-virtue/

    I'll give you all the summary: It is falling flat. Here are the three main reasons:
    1. There needs to be rewards that will entice players to participate, especially veterans. Rewards that make people who don’t participate jealous and encourages them to join in.
    2. There needs to be a reason to capture a town beyond grinding silver. A sense of urgency to draw players to fight.
    3. There needs to be a scoring system. Preferably with online leaderboards as we had with Factions.
    As it stands right now I can't get excited about this. And from what I can tell a lot of people are feeling the same way. I really hope there is going to be more changes and additions to this system in the near future.
     
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  2. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    Naw. It just needs to be fun.
     
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  3. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    I did not vote yet JC... I gotta read the entire review first.
     
  4. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    I think the rewards are o.k. thats not to say theres always room for improvement. i myself was not too excited about the banners but at least it was something. Now i did get excited when i saw the glacial horse on test center, but turned out it was only a bug.

    I would like more of a reason to fight for a town, even hold a town.
    Perhaps after a town was taken a certain amount of times a "watchtower" or some type of minor stronghold could be built on the edge of the town / city. i think the tech sorta is being worked on for that kinda thing already from the gov. system so maybe it could work.
     
  5. Quickblade

    Quickblade Lore Keeper
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    YOu are pratically right with the guild war system already ingame , this is about what they made with vice and Virtue. And I also agree that not having to choose the ''good side of virtue'' or ''evil of vice'' is lame. They should have just revamped the guild wars system, for exemple your guild leader choose to join vice , or choose virtue. Then its a all-facets vice vs virtue. This is just my opinion...
     
  6. Spock's Beard

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    Another publish cycle squandered on something nobody was ever going to use. @Kyronix was still pretending people use Refinement last time I checked, maybe he can get those imaginary people to play VvV too.

    At least we got that trade caravan crap that everyone quit talking about five seconds after it came out. That was a godsend for people who think a few million for some trade deals is a lot of money but who want to raise the cash as slowly and awkwardly as possible.

    I would seriously trade everything they've done in the last two years for a meaningful permanent Doom revamp.
     
  7. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    As we've talked about in other threads, we are constantly looking to improve upon VvV and will continue to support the system moving forward. It's feedback like this that will help us get there. With regards to your points...different people are going put different values on certain rewards. If you like to decorate, then decorations are going to appeal to someone more than someone who is more interested in suit building, and is eyeing a prized artifact. Based on your assessment, you aren't interested in potions, mounts, hair dye, artifacts, hooded robes, the pardon, decorations, or anything that is going to boost your skills...so what's left? What kind of reward would you be interested in?

    As to your second and third points, making the results of the battles more impactful and adding leaderboards in game as well as with the new MyUO are next up in terms of big new features for VvV. Our immediate goal was to address some of the major concerns with flagging in PvP and providing an easy-in/easy-out, fast paced PvP experience. So far I think we've accomplished that, and as we continue to balance various aspects and make things more impactful we can address these concerns.

    As far as your wider point about the wider why you don't "pick" a side to join - this was part of the original concept but there were many concerns voiced about how to regulate those that would seek to join a side only to attack one's teammates, as well as concerns that individuals simply did not want to be forced to join a team with someone that they viewed as a mortal enemy.

    Thanks again for the feedback!
     
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  8. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Here's my 2 cents for what they are worth. Nothing within the recent theory crafting of how to draw people to Felluca for PvP will work because:

    1. UO is sort of in a hard spot. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight like later titles when deciding how to deal with PvP. Since breaking Shards into PvP/PvE/RP-PvE/RP-PvP servers is not possible, then finding something other than a Carrot on a Stick approach has to happen. This has been tried over and over to draw people to Felucca. Increased Resources, Power/Stat Scrolls, etc. Each one of these has largely been ineffective because UO's economy is not under effective Control. Risk vs Reward is a flawed ideology from the start, this is just one example of how it is circumvented by any items that are easily purchased from other players due to the large amounts of Gold in circulation and lack of truly effective sinks to draw it out.
    2. The PvP Community has been largely ineffective in policing themselves. While you hear the claim "Trash Talk is part of the game" many non-PvP oriented people are non-PvP oriented for that very reason. It's not just a UO issue, most games have the same fault with First Person Shooters being notorious for it. Asking for a means to draw additional people to PvP is pointless if the current PvP community is simply going by and in large drive them off due to completely anti-social behavior. Without adequate support for when players do cross the line and violate UO's TOS or RoC nothing will change this. Waiting 3 hours on a GM or Advisor to investigate a complaint does not remedy the issue, it exacerbates it by leading to issues of frustration, shame, and gives the entire attempt at joining in on PvP an aura of distaste. Dying to another player is to be expected, listening to what them and your mother did last night, and a stream of continual name calling and verbal harassment is not, when it doesn't come down to the case of Camping a re-spawn point.
    3. As I stated Risk vs Reward is flawed. At most there should be a leader board that tracks damage delivered, received, deaths, and kills. When a player dies there should be no stat-loss, no loss of any item, except cursed items of course, (All players killed by player rez fully equipped with all non-cursed items they had on them at death) This makes PvP solely for the sake of enjoying PvP, and removes all risk from dying at the hands of another player except when Spawn Scrolls are involved.
    4. There simply isn't enough active player base spread across the various servers to support a robust PvP System. I know you guys are advertising, but PvP has largely concentrated on a few servers beyond Spawn Raids. Without an increased player base to draw from changes to PvP will net few results.

    Sorry that was $0.04 worth.
     
    #8 Nexus, Oct 28, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
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  9. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    There are quite a few rewards as it is. If the existing ones aren't good enough, what were you imagining for a good enough reward to draw people in?

    But, as pointed out above, the biggest problem with PvP is the active player-base. It simply isn't big enough, per shard, to really show a huge increase in PvP activity.
     
  10. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    You have to realize what your target audience is for rewards like this. Of course some people are going to like new decorations. But how much overlap is there between players who PVP and players who decorate houses? It is fine to have some of that stuff, but it is completely unbalanced right now.

    Anyway here are some random reward ideas:
    • Sash that gives +500 or +1000 luck, it is account bound and has a timer so it goes poof after 7 days. Probably give this to the top 20 players each week.
    • Top guild gets +10% bonus to pet stats/skills
    • Commemorative trophies engraved with your character name given out after x amount of kills, 100, 500, 1000, 10000
    • A statue in a central location such as Britain bank displays the top guild
    • A statue in each city displaying what guild currently controls it
    • Top guild each month gets a shield inscribed with their accomplishment placed somewhere, like in Castle British. There are plenty of walls in there.
    • If you control the city you get a special bonus to trader quests being delivered, or maybe even a cut of profits
    • Specific skill success bonuses/boosts when control certain towns: Moonglow/Magencia magic skills 5% each, Yew/Minoc resource gathering 5%, Jhelom warrior skills, etc.
    • When you control a virtue city you can gain access to a special area in the opposing anti-virtue Felucca dungeon
    • If your guild controls all 8 cities and summons the Harrower something amazing happens
    • For Britain, and maybe Yew, each month the guild that held said city for the longest duration earns the right to place one home inside the guard zone under Gamemaster discretion
    There are lots of different things that could be done. Your just need to make them cool and worth fighting over.

    I might as well put out an idea on how to change the whole town control system.

    - Towns will be controlled by guilds
    - Capturing a town can be very similar to how it is now with alters and sigils and killing
    - However it is no longer automatic or random which city gets fought over
    - To initiate a challenge you steal the town sigil
    - If you fail to takeover the town it stays with the current owner and cannot be challenged for 1 day
    - If you succeed your guild becomes the new town owner and cannot be challenged for 1 day
    - The guild initiating the challenge does not mean they are the only one that could take control, it could be any guild
    - A challenge cannot occur until 1 hour has past since the last one ended
    - Only one challenge can be active at a time

    I am sure there are flaws with this design.

    Actually it seems like a good idea to have it all be guild based. If you have a limited number of sides you run into issues as you mentioned. But with a guild the guildmaster has control over everything. If you don't like it, go start your own guild or join another one. The whole thing is self-regulated.
     
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  11. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    I do like the statue reward. It could come like a vet statue but in VvV colors.

    I don't like being a bland VvV player. I would actually like to see a Vice tag or a Virtue tag. You could do this by having sign ups in towns. A vice Brit guild, virtue brit guild, repeat for other towns. I would enjoy fighting for my town of choice.

    The last part irked me. I think this is TOO much guild based. I shouldn't have to just join up with random people to become successful in this system. While I don't approve of piggybacking I also don't like the idea of fighting an entire shard by myself.

    @Kyronix some players have shown interest in taking the fight to all facets while other players have shown negative arguments due to the healing factor. Would there be anyway to please both sides by not allowing VvV players to be healed by non VvV? Also that play by play menu...too big. Is there anyway to remove it for good?
     
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  12. Kyronix

    Kyronix UO Designer
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    Early on in VvV development we weighed the pro's and con's of opening up fights to all facets, and ultimately the con's outweighed the pro's. We also did not want to create a highly complex aggression web, as would be the case in dealing with the non-VvV healer issue.
     
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  13. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    The one major thing i would do to VvV and it seems to be reiterated in multiple threads... A leader board online somewhere. I want a list of a VvV participants, their K/D/A ratio and win percentage.... With out any type of history being saved there is no reason to do it for real PvPers. The best PvPers i know have a max storage house thats built one story and a couple boxes on the floor. Deco does nothing, give them the glory and honor of being posted as number one on a website people actually visit.
     
  14. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Nexus pretty much summed it up... people frankly don't care and the crowd and their anti-social behavior do themselves in...

    I always thought that there should be a central server where everyone could go with a massive dungeon with a town in the center of it where everyone from every shard (barring Siege and Mugen of course) could go and fight together in PvP with the same VvV sort of ideal outside the town in the dungeon area with enough good drops along with some spawns and such that drop good stuff to make it worth the risk of going... something that would also have an arena for Xshard PvP challenges... something that would perhaps allow Shard vs Shard challenge as well.
     
  15. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    Kyronix said a little while ago they are already creating a leaderboard for VvV.
     
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  16. Captn Norrington

    Captn Norrington Trade Forum Administrator
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    People can already do that on test center can't they? minus the rewards of course. If people really wanted to, they could get together a group for each shard, then go to test center and fight it out.
     
  17. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Thing is, regarding the banners and such, they are tradeable and can be placed by non-VvV folks in their homes. I'll never, ever be interested in PvP no matter what 'rewards' are on offer - but being able to buy things I like from those who do enjoy it adds something for both them and me.
     
  18. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    And as always, the developers fiddle with systems but fail to get a grip on the behaviour of the few who disrupt those systems, and the game play of everyone else. But hey, I'm sure someone will come along to say they understand the problems and really do want to sort this out and will do something, some time in the future - like they always say...........
     
  19. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    I still believe it would be possible, but it is a good thing to test it well in Fel and on Siege/Mugen first. Just don't allow VvV fights in non Fel Towns.
    There are still room for improvement but going to fast may make the system fail.
    I don't think rewards should be carrots for joining VvV, I rather see VvV players get luck and 2x bonus if VvV is allowed on all facets. You could test that on Siege, we really need access to that bonus.

    Giving the hardcore VvV players rewards, that will make them even stronger, would be very bad as it would make the lesser PvP'ers give up trying.
    I can see the flagging thing need some thoughts, if it should work on all facets as we can't have players get flaget for healing a friend, who is not fighting anyone. Also, I'm not sure, can a non VvV guildmember attack a VvV guildmember without being orange? I believe it is important, that guildmembers can train PvP before the new PvP'ers are ready to join the fights.

    I really like, that VvV work with the guild system and I would like the Guild leader/Alliance leader to choose Virtue or Vice for the guild.
    If guild goes Virtue, the members who join can only attack Vice, other Virtue will be blue to them. Vice will show red to Virtue.
    If guild goes Vice, the members who join can both attack Virtue and Vice. Virtue will show orange to Vice, other alliances in Vice will show reds to Vice.
    Member in same alliance will still be green to each others.

    This way, lesser PvP'ers could join a Virtue alliance and would only have Vice as enemies. More hardcore PvP'ers could join Vice to get more enemies/targets. Let players join Vice without being in a guild = making them self red to all VvV players.

    If you then allow a VvV o choose between VvV tag being active in Fel only or in both Fel and Trammel, I think it could work. They should only get the luck and 2x drop bonus in Trammel zone if they choose to activate their VvV tag in Trammel facets.
     
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  20. Lore Denin (GL)

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    Order/Chaos was all facets and it was rough on people. I was Order from the beginning and ran an Order Guild and though I loved it, very few people were able to handle the grind. The constant vigilance, bank killings, afk killings etc. Add EM events and people will get griefed to no end. [My advice was always if its an issue use another character but people tend to play their favorite and put themselves in bad situtations and blame the situation rather then attribute the issue to their own actions]. This is all outside of who can heal, are the healers not killable in tram, etc etc.. This always leads to mass griefing of people very familiair with pvp and how flagging works jumping into a world where a majority of the players are not going to understand why they are getting killed etc. Reverse it and you get the person with 3-4 non VvV healers who takes advantage of anyone in Tram flagged VvV without a non attackable support crew. Then people leave because they are constantly dealing with all that nonsense and threads pop up why are we letting this happen in Tram and a few griefer types will essential end participation.

    If you give VvV players in tram the option to challenge each other to a duel rather then all out chaos of war I think it would be a nice wrinkle. Players challenge somone and a gump to accept or decline, and a 10 min timer where both players can't be helped by anyone (even guildmates) you could bring it to tram without issue. Then people can duel for points, bragging rights and a little silver. Make tram corpses unlootable by enemies and you've carved another niche of players who will participate in VvV that otherwise would have avoided it. [The Tram segment will push to be able to earn silver like people can on the Felucca side but since they are participating in a completely safe and controlled environment they can only win dueling silver which would come out to 1-100 silver based on the players rank you defeated.]. Non pvpers would become comfortable in the dueling format of pvp and if they wanted to earn more silver they could move to Fel when they felt ready to face the more chaotic field battles that involve multiple players, a different variety of templates and tactics.

    I really like how VvV has progressed and been adjusted in its early days to meet player expectations while remaining true to the concepts that put it in place. That being said I agree with most of what JC has said philosophically if not in the exact details.

    One aspect I think really needs to be addressed is changing the conflict from a generic non sided format to an actual Vice, Virtue and Independent. The Independent is key because there is a large segment of people who simply don't want to be on the same side as other guilds or have concerns about being attacked by supposed allies. In factions this caused constant faction switching and resulted in many people ultimately leaving the system due to frustration.

    Virtue Vice and Independent would each have slightly different styles of play and partnership that could meet the demands of different players.

    -Vice you would be free to use fields and other area effects without hurting other Vice players but if you wanted to target another Vice player directly you could do that and there would be no consequence. Does that seem unfair - sure but its Vice. You are evil and so are your allies. There will be groups you find you can trust and others you find you can't. Maybe its you that can't be trusted after all. Backstabbing is something that is suppose to happen between "evil" guilds.

    Don't like that join, Try Virtue....Only blues can join Virtue, Area effects and fields don't effect other Virtue players but they are able to be targeted directly. However unlike Vice where it comes with the territory killing fellow Virtue players gives murder counts and turning red while in Virtue puts you out of Virtue and placed as an independent participant attackable by all VvV for three days until you leave the system. You will also be unable to re-join Virtue (even if you return blue ) for a month.

    Independent, you and your friends form your own faction. Its your guild/alliance against the world. You are at war with Virtue, Vice and any Independent guilds. Consequences of attacking people in your guild are handled by your guild. Exactly how it is now.

    These three options would allow people to play as it is now, but adds the option to fight for a greater good in Virtue or evil in Vice.

    Moving forward I'd love to VvV move to the minor towns like Serpents, Cove, Nu'jelm, etc where points are accumulated by your guild and can be used to Siege a Virtue town in an old fashion faction style defense. Giving the victors a deeper level of control of guards, finanices etc and incorporating town rewards similar to what JC had mentioned.

    This is not a negative post about VvV, as I am enjoying it very much. Small issues have been fixed quickly as testing has revealed things that were slightly out of balance. This post is more about I hope can offer moving forward. There are so many great ideas in these posts that I don't believe there is ONE right answer, or direction to move - just many good options and I think that indicates VvV is a solid pvp system on which to build. Great Job!

    -Lore's Player
     
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  21. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    Test center is ruined by the fact that everyone can change their skills every 10 seconds.
     
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  22. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    TC is not a real shard. TC isn't what you'd want. No I'm talking about somewhere EVERYONE can come and GO from... You can port to TC but what's on TC STAYS on TC and is constantly being deleted.... No one wants that.

    People want to keep what they win. Sure they can fight it out on TC but it doesn't mean anything... You don't have to work for anything on TC.... set your skills and everything as you like everything is easy to get...

    I'm talking about one huge server sized massive dungeon with gates to every shard... scattered about with one town smack in the center only way there is thru PvP dungeon zones.... labyrinth if you will... And inside the City zone which is "safe.. you'd have all the usual stuff plus an arena for battles... where you can challenge whole guilds... or groups... and outside you'd be able to fight folk from any shard ...... There would be a big champ spawn or several there... Special titles given to those with stuff there but give both points to healing and rezing others as well as giving death counts and such. Your actions would determine if you were Virtuous or not...

    Problem a lot with my feelings on PvP in Fel and all is there is ZERO consequence to being an ass.... You can be a complete jerk and act like a jerk.... you can pretend to be a good guy and join a guild and then destroy them from the inside and let your friends win... and there is NO consequences... There is also ZERO incentive to being a decent human being... Cheaters, Murderers, and Thieves get everything... those who are nice and decent take the time to heal and rez folk get NOTHING. And it's totally obvious... So the game has become a soloists dream and a place filled with greed and dishonesty...

    Why? Because NOTHING is ever done to promote what the game is based on ...... Virtue. Being decent. I suppose it pays to be a complete prick... Well... imagine we reap what we sow... I'd like to see a system that rewards decency. Instead of systems to reward selfishness.

    Maybe that's just me. But I'd like to see more rewards for working together and less for being an elitist soloist. I'd like to see more emphasis put into RP and community...

    Not more ways to destroy and steal and harm other players. I'd like to see stuff get done to scammers...

    As for the Virtue vs Vice I see no reason why there can't be a simple command that you could say like the old "I must consider my Sins" or "punte" ... that tells you that a battle for X, Y, or Z city is still in effect so I don't go trying to go there and get bounced out... or end up flagged when all I want to do is turn in a stinking quest... I don't see that it's too much to ask. And I don't want to be "enticed" into doing something I'm not interested in doing. I resent that... Add one more thing to being a complete jack-off why don't they... Where is the decent rewards for being decent???? Highly imbalanced.
     
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  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I personally think the rewards are fine. If you add more things I'd like to see titles, more avatar personalization options (special hued clothes, or dyes whatever). Character appearance altering stuff seem to make more sense to me for pvp rewards, though something like a trophy or something like that you could lock down in your house for achieving something like being top of the leader board for x days, or making x kills, or capturing x alters, would also be cool.

    Very glad to hear you are going to add more importance to the fighting. Right now thats my biggest problem with the system, it just seems pointless. While I know its a pvp system I also think it would be cool to allow non pvpers some roll where they could contribute to either side somehow. Maybe yall don't want to muddy the message, but I think it would be a good idea.

    As for not picking sides, I would also prefer that you be able to pick a side. It seems like an essential conflict, and one where you need to clearly pick a side.
     
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  24. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    I agree about saying a word to see where the fight is or even a town crier announcing it. As far as I've noticed the only time there's a mention of a fight Is at login or when a new fight is starting. If you're preoccupied then you miss the message.

    You keep mentioning a turn in quest in threads. I have no idea what you're talking about but why not campaign to have more turn in locations added in perma non fighting areas like Ocllo or Del? That seems like a more reasonable fix than trying to hot fix a whole pvp system.

    I've been thinking more about the rewards. You're just not going to lure pvpers into a system with the reward of banksitting clothing or deco items. If said clothing contained never released mods that might give an edge then that will do it. We already have the epaulettes so offer a skirt with mods, sashes with different mods ect ect. Like JC said, statues or clothing that say "I'm good at what I do" will also work for the egomaniacs. Whatever it is needs to be useful and unique to this system only.
     
  25. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    I'm curious as to why on Siege, a system based around pvp on a server with a ruleset that generally favors pvp interaction that the pvp rewards i.e the artifacts were not introduced based off of the opinions of a group of players who do not actively seek to pvp? They are not blessed so can be looted and without them there is very little incentive for pvpers to get involved on siege. For the first few weeks nearly every battle was between stealthers from non-pvp orientated guilds trying to farm deco items with as little pvp interaction as they could, now with the change in silver gain making it essential to not be hidden these players have also stopped VvV for the most part. How do you expect a system like this to have any chance on Siege of encouraging pvpers to participate when the rewards are not there and more worrying how do certain cross sections of our server get to dictate what things are implemented on Siege for everybody else?
     
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  26. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Hi JC! I wish I knew whether to welcome you back, or just to thank you for your time and interest in the game to this particular system. In any event, I do want to say a "Thank you!" for being so faithful for all these years and providing the invaluable resource that is UOGuide. Stratics is awesome for a lot of things, but in the category of providing easily searchable information for the broadest amount of items, activities, events (with some more recent exceptions) and systems within the game the Guide is a wonderful resource for new, returning, and veteran players alike. Its everything Powergamers could have been, without the infighting. Kudos!

    Your first point is relative and has been, well, not addressed, but responded to, by Kyronix.

    I think your second point is most important of all. Going way back to the idea of a faction revamp, before it completely blew up, was the fact that so many wanted something that gave the actions in a PvP system in fel meaning within the larger context of the game. I think even Zogs rants and Mags comments on the detrimental effect of town battles on an overarching player life in fel have some merit in this particular discussion.

    On the flip side of that I do see VvV as a test of sorts. Can we get people to come back to fel? Under what conditions?

    If the answer to that is yes, then investing time and attention, always a precious commodity for any dev team, especially so for one that is small, become something that is, in fact, not only viable but a priority.

    Number three is already in the works, was part of the original design in fact, and only requires some tweaking to make it functional. They may also be waiting for some expansion of the MyUO page in order to determine appropriate formatting etc. That last bit is just technical conjecture on my part, but it stands to reason.

    Again, thanks for coming, playing, and reporting towards the purpose of generating interest. I hope you stick around.

    Happy hunting!
     
  27. Gedgerez Tesherd

    Gedgerez Tesherd Journeyman

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    There are far fewer players involved with Vvv as of lately during the Doom grind-a-thon. Other than of course visiting a game city at the wrong time & turning orange by mistake or purpose. Rewards are nice sure, but that is not a reason to partake in a pvp game other than the reward of having pvp somewhere else other than yew gate, or despise. One may also have difficulty staying blue on a character, so joining VvV for additional flag'd targets can help (assuming there's a Fel presence on your server). One thing I do not condone & will not support or take part of are publicized leader boards / scoreboards. I don't give a rats azz who wants to see their name on a ranking above another player (anti arena as well). If this such a global statistic is put in place, I will simply leave VvV, but may continue using the game zone for additional flagging. I do not participate with dipping into other peoples filth greased quenching thirst of an ego for bragging rights.

    *wipes hands in complacency*
     
  28. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    I'm not in the habit of dissecting posts, but this one seems to merit the action.
    All of the above are very long term commitments, and are leaning back towards a faction type system. I think we need to see if we can get people to come back to play in Fel before real consideration is merited for long term goals within the system. But, yes, having a system that lends itself to long term strategy, even more so than the Governor system, which IMHO suffers primarily from the same lack of mechanical support. (ie, players choices and actions have real and long term consequences) would have very real merit, but would have to be weighed on the possibility of being used as a large scale greifing mechanism.

    Just some thoughts on one or two of your reward choices. Luck statue: love that idea. Keep it simple, just make it a tenth ani statue available in choice of hue (Virtue or Vice) make it usable by VvV characters only, and give it a uses counter, say fifty or so, that are visible.

    Player, or guild, run shops inside the guard zone: Also excellent! We were looking for this when we got New Magencia, if memory serves. The spaces that were unused that the players wanted to make use of at the time were the big, open, and vacant counselor halls. What if an essence vendor was possible? Price controls up, or down, on regular city vendors? Lots of stuff to play with here. Great ideas that can hopefully see fruition down the road.

    Initially, back at conception, these battles were to take place around shrines. Housing considerations forced the team to find an alternate path. But I would love to see that idea reinvestigated somehow. From a fictional standpoint, having a corrupted or purified shrine, has very strong roots in Ultima gamelore, and could be a starting point for exploring a rebirth of the hero/villian system. That would be fun!

    Long term systems. I addressed them above, sorta. I would like to hear a lot more talk about guild warring within VvV (picking a "nemesis" guild that you are flagged orange to all the time, possibly) and, just this small caution, looking at some of the above, and remembering its not just guilds but also alliances. are we setting ourselves up for the return of the real, possibly multi-shard, zerg? And is that good or bad? What's good about it? What's bad about it?
    I like this aspect also. In fact, having given the matter no small amount of serious thought, I think the pros offered by the way it is currently set up far outweigh the benefits of having guilds pick a side.
     
  29. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    I do not think the team, and you in particular, is getting nearly enough love for continuing to make yourselves available and open to our feedback. Both positive:thumbup: and not so much! :gun:

    Thank you for starting small with an eye towards expansion as it becomes necessary and is mandated by player participation, both inside and outside the system itself.:cool:
     
  30. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Ah, roleplayers that PvP. Now we are catering to the tiniest subset of a tiny subset, and I should know! But I am with you, in order to create real engagement, there has to be a seamless sort of immersion and integration of all the playstyles within the larger system, Right now its a big open concept that doesn't really have constraints. Between this and the rewards, I think we can attribute whatever initial successes we are able to measure. I advocate good achievable goals and baby steps.

    I agree! Looking forward to further realization of the potential!
     
  31. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Mr. Tact told us years ago that it is impossible for the game to gauge intention. Now, how to make virtues that are measurable? I think that becomes a real and important question if we have "innocents" that want to feel protected in this new environment. "Evil" characters might, but probably won't, have any respect for the desires of another individual. That is a chaos or order thing right there.
     
  32. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    I've always been amazed at those who need incentive to PvP on Siege. The Siege ruleset alone should have the existing PvPers busy and at the same time attracting the so-called production shard PvPers to come set up shop.

    But I suppose the "real" PvPers have left the game to only those who have become reliant on insurance backed items instead of skill. I recall a few PvP guilds trying to come dominate Siege only to head back to their home shards within a few months. To call out a couple I remember pretty short stints by Atlantic's HOT guild and some Pacific coast shard's FL guild..."OMG, No insurance?" *poof*...la
     
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  33. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    So, with all that out of the way, I'd be talking out of turn if I tried to give any report on the current state of the system. I have not had time!

    I fully realize the nature of the game, and our current players makes it difficult to spend the development resources for a system that has apparent appeal to such a small portion of the players. I have not been spending all my time in Doom, as I am sure most would think. Rather, I have spent a huge amount of time working to update suits, and other gear, and not just for myself.

    I know we have artifacts. I also know they have a very short lifespan. Currently, the characters I have in VvV are sitting idle as far as PvM play goes. I think that might merit some thought if a long term plan is being developed. But that leads us back to the sometimes unpopular notions of global participation in the system, like factions, where crafters also are of importance.

    But it would be a rather large draw, if participating in the system somehow eased the extremely intimidating experience of crafting top tier gear.
     
  34. Revvo

    Revvo Slightly Crazed
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    It's more the why issue :)
     
  35. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) Wrong
    2) Wrong
    3) Possibly

    Correct me if I am wrong but VvV is supposed to be a felucca based pvp/combat system right?
    Something to encourage players to get back into towns and fight.
    Not a pixel candy item vending machine system like factions turned into. People too lazy to build characters used faction items as a reason to hop shards all day looking for more victims to gank and stat for 20 minutes. Way to encourage single shard community lol.
    You make it quite obvious by your first two points that you do not simply want to pvp. You want items, items, items.
    And your third point shows that you want to use those items to chest thump your skewed points totals. I'll pass on encouraging players to gank and rezzkill even more than factions did which was out of control :(

    VvV is working pretty well imo and has the potential to be a great system as intended with silver being nothing more than a nice little bonus.
     
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  36. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    This input is also important! I believe it represents a substantial amount of those who currently see themselves as pvpers. They want action, not a huge and bloated system designed to have crafting, stealing, and healing.

    Goldberg, my desires for the system are probably different than yours. I see grand potential for an all Fel system in which to play lots of different types of characters. But believe me when I say I understand that keeping it fun for pvpers has to be a primary concern. Not all people have the same definition of "grind".
     
  37. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Some good thought processes there man. More should be thought of in regards to capturing a town.

    All of the ideas for rewards/credits to guilds make me want to make a guild lol. I've been bouncing around with people i know or playing solo for too long.
     
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  38. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Well Pixel candy won't appeal to most pvpers, but its another "lure people to fel" tactic. It won't help in the long run, with all of the other issues in fel these days... But it might help stimulate mini fights and spurts of activity, especially on lower pop shards.

    I like the concept of having VvV collectibles. Similar to the EM stuff. And it would throw a bone at some of the hard core reds who don't attend EM events =) Every week or every month the collectible changes to never be had again. can be something personalized somehow to show the character name and/or server.

    I dunno, it would be something to peak a little interest, and at the very list, a few mini fights.
     
  39. Hoffs

    Hoffs Gilfane Keeper of the Hall
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    A better question is why was such a miserable system, which was not supported by the large majority of the Siege players, allowed on to the shard? VvV has wrecked UO for me more than anything in my years of playing. All the affected old towns are no longer worth going to as can't plan on doing anything or meeting anyone in them. The Siege governor system has also been thrown down the toilet and I certainly won't be continuing as one. Hell, even my Skara office got demolished to make way for an altar.

    Bottom line us that for every one of the few remaining Siege PvPers who complain about their precious missing arties, there are several non-pvpers complaining about their missing cities. Futhermore, not every PvPer is in favour of the arties anyway.
     
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  40. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Hoffs, I'm interested in your thoughts, please explain a little more on these topics:

    Why aren't the old towns worth going to? If a VvV battle breaks out, either stay and fight or leave with the person you were planning to meet.
    How is the Gov system been flushed? I haven't experienced the system to date, and have been reading up on it. How is it broken?
    How could the system be tweaked on Siege to make it better for the current player base and possibly attract more players from the production shards?

    Please don't think I'm calling you out, I am curious your thoughts on this since you lead the largest guild on the shard presently...la
     
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  41. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    Revvo, the problem is, even when we are some players who do not active search PvP on Siege, the artifacts will effect us very badly. Yes they can be looted but we can't use them, you can however use our gear. Also we saw in the past, that players who did not mind some PvP actions gave up PvP as the Faction players using farties was way to powerful vs gear from crafting and loot.
    Before you would use a lot time farm silver, why not use that time farm magic loot or resources for crafting?
    I have seen/heard more PvP actions after we got VvV so lets give it a chance.
    I would not mind a mega nerf to stealth on Siege, maybe the shard would look less empty.
     
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  42. Pepe the Strange

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    I agree with all of this, except perhaps for having different styles of partnerships. For those RPing, it would be great, but part of the reason for having an Independent group would be to allow guilds with bad relationships to stay away from one another, as you mentioned. If they have to accept a different type of partnership than they would otherwise it might just be substituting one problem for another.

    Either way, having a third option would make sense both for those who RP and those who don't. It would add a bit of a wrinkle to the good/evil binary - are all who follow Virtue always good. and are all who have Vice always evil?
     
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  43. cazador

    cazador Crazed Zealot
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    Siege has an interesting problem here..considering they don't have a trammel to hide in. So the only way they could hide is by hiding in towns or stealthing around. Seige should have the VvV for the people who want to participate. But almost dumbed down to 1-2 "battlegrounds" lesser used like serps or occlo. But the main cities should have been left alone, considering it really is their own safe haven. Or maybe not siege is "hardcore"...I guess :/


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  44. Robin_of_Moxy

    Robin_of_Moxy Adventurer

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    Best idea I have seen all day!
     
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  45. Spock's Beard

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    Find equipment slots for which only a couple of good items exist (belt, cloak, etc.) and add some more items for those slots. It's ridiculous that after all these years still your only belt choices are crimmy and tangle.

    Find item properties that never took off (villainous/virtuous epiphany, various SA and event properties etc.) and put them on items that are actually worth equipping.

    And good god, start picking your battles better. Just think about how much more interesting the game would be if the months of effort that were wasted on arenas, and armor refinements, and all these boondoggle projects had gone to... I dunno... a pet breeding system instead. Or a halfway decent newbie dungeon. Or anything.
     
  46. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    While I do realize there is no way to "gauge" someones "intent"... I do know this... It's completely 100% profitable to go around killing to your hearts content... to steal and loot and do anything else anti-social... Now adding to that the new "rewards" for the PvP system now we add another reason to go around killing everything in sight...

    What is the reason to kill a red? What incentive is there to NOT go red and be a murderer? ZERO.... you say something like ooh reds can't go to tram..... well if I get me a pardon or 2 or 3 I can go to tram... I can keep killing being red being a murderer.... with little to no consequence... Everything you want to do that shows you are "good" take Humility for instance... returning lost items.... what a grind.... Gain compassion.... grind..... gain in Honor... grind..... gain in any of the virtues it's a complete grind.... if you want to keep them up on more than one character then you spend half your week grinding them continuously..... Rez too many folk at an EM event and back to the grind you go....

    Zero incentive to be decent. Being a murderer and killing for fun looting and stealing is all for "fun" and you get the bonus of getting stuff you can sell too. Very little incentive to being a nice person.... if you go to an EM event you have little incentive to stop grinding on the boss to help anyone because if you take the time to rez someone you are pretty much taking yourself out of the top tier of damage.... rezing doesn't seem to count as healing... so once again being a jerk pays and being a decent player who helps other players does NOT.

    So basically one of my biggest PEEVES is that I'm to be enticed into going to Fel to PvP against other players so I can keep up and make gold to sell crap that people who stay in tram need ...... But if I stay in Tram and help new players, returning players, put on events that take up a whole lot of time, stay the Governor and keep trying to stay up on the Trade deals, maintain a presence and keep helping others... I get ....... NOTHING. Infact I get to shell out 10x more gold than if I turn and just tell everyone to frell off and play some soloist and only concern myself with my own profits. Kill everything and everyone and I'd be better off.

    I'm sorry but I thought the whole idea of playing an MMORPG was to be a part of a community? I didn't realize I was supposed to not care about that community and to pretend I don't play with other people who might have feelings and such.... I should treat them like any NPC and such... I should not try to help folk or spend my time doing events for folk because I must be playing some offline game then... well heck.... What am I paying for really? I guess I understood things wrong when I started playing.
     
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  47. Zuckuss

    Zuckuss Order | Chaos
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    The reason to kill a red? The thrill of combat with a thinking player. There is quite a reward in thwarting their efforts to loot your goods and sell them. There is also the added grief on their end if they fail. The greatest benefit though is the fun of it.

    As far as incentive to be decent? Reputation is that incentive. Not the in-game reputation either. I am talking about our actions being remembered by the people around us. The ability to trust in one's reputation is the most valuable thing in UO.

    Community? PvP and community can co-exist. Not all pvp'ers are evil and not all pvm'ers are good. I haven't read anything that might be interpreted in a way which would suggest we shouldn't care about the community. It is the individual player that decides whether or not they want to contribute or detract from it. Everyone gets a choice.
     
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  48. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Apparently almost no one else must feel the way you do as they are quite fine to have a crappy reputation. Reputation doesn't get you far either.

    I've met some major jerks. I'm just saying that if you want folk like me to give a rats about PvP then there better be some incentive for doing GOOD things. Rather than killing to kill for the thrill because honestly I don't see any thrill in it. Mostly a whole heck of a lot of us never PvP much because either my computer stinks or it's my internet connection... can't really PvP if you spend a lot of time doing the 2 step or lagging out everytime there is more than 2 houses on the screen. Just isn't fun to be dead without ever seeing anything had happened till the screen finally moves and everything is in shades of gray.

    Truth of the matter is because UO has decided to never come out of the dark ages in it's program and wants to keep folk who are using pc's from 1994 still able to "play" on them and holding the game in the 90's ..... many folk are doing just that and if you think they are going to be able to PvP on that with dial up or some silly phone connection or something not going to happen. No one wants to try to PvP with the guy on the super connection with the $3,000+ computer... So trying to entice us to play in Fel is like asking someone who has always played solitare with a real deck of cards to play it on the computer. BIG difference.
     
  49. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    Mag there were, at one time, whole hosts of "Honor" guilds whose reason for being was to thwart anti social behavior as recognized by the game (grey and red) and they did community, even some light RP community, very well. The fact that doesn't exist today does not mean it can't again.

    The RP community as a whole, shoots itself in the foot when they make attempts to set limits, not supported by any game mechanic, on skills, equipment, and behaviors.

    That isn't to say it something can't be done. We didn't assign any weight to healing for years.
     
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