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[Atlantic] Voter Fraud

Discussion in 'Governors' Forum' started by Nails Warstein, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. Nails Warstein

    Nails Warstein Rares Festival Silent Auctioneer
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    As some of you may already know, there were two Nails Warsteins running for governor of New Magincia along side a player named Ma Nerva on Atlantic. Unsure of which Nails to vote for, my supporters voted for the Nails that had votes already, as did I. This Nails was leading all week right up until the end with more than 70% of the vote. Turns out that Nails Warstein was the imposter who resigned from running in the final hour, clearing the way for Ma Nerva to win with very few votes.

    If players can employ such tactics to win through cheating, and assume responsibility for their new found position, I can only surmise this aspect of the game is broken, and not working as intended. I realize that this form chicanery isn't new to elections, and I believe plausible solutions were offered, but never implemented. Hopefully they will consider fixing this now.

    I wish my opponent the best of luck in their new found position. I hope they don't mind winning this way, I know I certainly would. If I were them, I would do the honorable act of resigning. I personally couldn't be satisfied knowing that I did not win the support of players that earned this position of governor fairly and squarely. I would feel too guilty accepting a win knowing someone who should have won legitimately did not. Let's see if they can display this same strength of character and prove themselves capable of true leadership. Perhaps this is what they intend to do after all? Only time will tell.

    @EM_Bennu @Mesanna @Kyronix
     
    Chamaeleon, Flair, Skunk and 5 others like this.
  2. Lord Lew

    Lord Lew Lore Keeper
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    I am saddened at this news, and will be demanding an investigation by the king at the first meeting.

    The incumbent governor should have a special designation on the stone!

    I'd write more, but am so furious, it would come out twisted!
     
    Pandora_CoD, TandaBSK, Flair and 6 others like this.
  3. Andrasta

    Andrasta Goodman's Rune Library
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Blue Crane Society

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    Having been a victim of Ma Nerva's smear campaign in the first elections, I can assure you that no such strength of character or human decency exists in this person.

    A copy of the book that she dropped trying to destroy my reputation over the first glitches of the 2 broken stones on Atlantic is locked on the front step of Goodman's Memorial Library for all to judge her words.

    Her thoughtlessness and false accusations almost destroyed my first term.
     
  4. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    This was a problem in the last election too, and it was not fixed or (to my knowledge) even seriously addressed. Impersonating another player with the intent to scam or defraud ought to be considered harassment in my opinion, and when it is done within the governor system the offender should be barred from governorship. In both this and the impersonator I'm thinking of from last election, it should have been very easy to determine what was happening and address it before it got to this point.

    The problem of cross-shard vote buying/trading was similarly not addressed. It was not a problem on my shard this time, but it probably was elsewhere. With only one vote per account, each candidate isn't just competing within his/her own city... but rather is competing with every candidate in every city for votes. This makes it very easy for frivolous candidacies in multiple cities to affect elections in other cites. You are now better off campaigning on other servers than on your own. I hesitated to ask for votes this time because I didn't want to take votes away from friends in other cities. It's stupid.

    I've been loving the governor system but I'm really disappointed in the way the voting has been mishandled since day one and by the tolerance for grief tactics I've witnessed. Eventually the honest players who actually care will give up, and once again the cheaters and griefers will win. Sad.
     
  5. Pandora_CoD

    Pandora_CoD Certifiable
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    This is very similar to the tactic that was used by the opponents of @Dot_Warner in Great Lakes. Awful awful mess and meant to be confusing to voters. This type of behavior needs to be addressed promptly. Appeal to EM Bennu, as they have the right to basically replace Governors as they see fit.
     
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  6. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran Britain [BRIT]

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    I can't say that I'm shocked that this kind of behavior spread after the last election. In fact, I warned Measnna that her ambivalence over my situation would negatively effect future elections, since such childish behavior was now all but officially sanctioned. While two dopplegangers aren't a huge number, its still two too many.

    Allowing such blatant harassment to fester really brings down the whole system, which it can't really afford. Interest in it, outside a core group, has dropped every term. I can't wait to cringe at how many PKC cities (or entire shards) there are this term...
     
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  7. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Please feel free to study the results, the global list is now fully updated. http://uo2.stratics.com/posts/46510
     
  8. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
    Governor Stratics Veteran Britain [BRIT]

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    Only 15 PKCs, now that I am shocked by. Way better than last term! The six month terms must have been a bigger draw than anticipated.
     
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  9. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Partly the problems grow because we're making it a more successful and visible system, which of course attracts the attention seekers and 'spoilers' to try mess it all up in the absolute certainty they can do so completely without consequences.

    The issues about 'fake' characters continus to grow, but the Devs sit firmly on the fence and hide behind nonsense about it being 'a game that's never had unique names', another piece of 'selective memory' when it comes to actually enforcing their own rules about behaviour. The ToS gives EA, or their 'agents', the absolute right to do almost anything they wish, the problem is always the lack of willingness of the management to actually do anything that might cost them a few dollars a month revenue.....

    Rule 5c : "You acknowledge and agree that all characters created, and items acquired and developed as a result of game play are part of the Software and Service and are the sole property of Electronic Arts."

    (So, EA, if the characters causing this grief are YOURS..... step up and stop it happening, maybe?)

    5e : "Electronic Arts reserves the right to terminate your Membership if it determines in its sole discretion that you have engaged in any impermissible conduct whether or not such conduct violates the Rules of Conduct."


    As for the Rules of Conduct :

    You may not victimize, harass, threaten, or cause another player unwanted distress or discomfort, as determined by Support Staff.

    You will not do anything else that interferes with the ability of other Ultima Online users to enjoy playing the game in accordance with its rules, or that increases the expense or difficulty of Electronic Arts in maintaining the Ultima Online service for the enjoyment of all its users.



    And add in the Naming Policy :

    Examples of inappropriate names include, but are not limited to:

    Any name that is defamatory or attempts to defame the reputation of another account holder, an employee of Electronics Arts, property of Electronic Arts or Electronic Arts itself

    The 'rules' are there, in place, and crystal clear - all that is missing is the will to actually enforce them. Sadly it has always been this way ..... for all the protestations about how much the devs love us players and want to support us, when it comes to a crunch and they are needed to act effectivvely, because we are not able to - they fail, run away, and make smokescreens of empty phrases and spin, while letting the bad behaviour carry on undisturbed.

    The only candidate standing against me for Europa Britain was a fake 'Petra Fyde', the real Petra made it as clear as she could it was NOT her, and for those who knew the guild shown against the 'fake' made it clear it was not her, but the imposter was allowed to carry out their attempt to discredit both Petra and the elections system - while our developers, yet again, stand around and watch, occasionally making bleating noises about how 'they wish they could help but can't do anything'.

    How exactly am I meant to believe that people 'care about us and the game' then prove how hollow the words are by failing to take any action at all that might cost a few accounts worth of income. :( People who 'care' about me don't lie to me, and they don't assume I'm too stupid to see what they are doing.....
     
  10. Tanieran

    Tanieran Adventurer

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    I recall the election in which there were two "Dot Warner's" running. I was thankful that I was warned ahead of time to look at the guild abbreviations before voting, which prevented me from accidentally voting for the griefer, rather than the real Dot Warner.

    I completely agree that "Something Needs to be done" in order to prevent this type of voting fraud from continuing. May I suggest to the players running next election to make certain that your guild abbreviations are very obvious, distinct and difficult to immitate, and that if you are not in a guild to create a uniquely abbreviated guild. I know at one point, guild abbreviations were protected -- there could not be two of the same exact abbreviations on the same shard but I'm not certain if that still holds true.

    As far as protecting names -- I like being able to have multiple characters of the same name because it lets people know that its me playing with templates. However, when it comes to the voting system, I completely understand the need to protect the names of those running. I wonder if it would be possible to program a check for names in the Governor System? It would have to be carefully coded so that it didn't prevent the current governor from running in the next election cycle, but otherwise, would it be possible?
     
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  11. Pandora_CoD

    Pandora_CoD Certifiable
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    @Kyronix --- there should be a way for the EM or a GM to basically void a duplicate name nomination that violates the "impersonation" TOS. I mean its rather easy to find out who's the "real" person from account character creation date table in SQL.
     
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  12. TandaBSK

    TandaBSK Seasoned Veteran
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    @ Lord Lew, I like the idea of a special designated marker for Incumbent Governors. Maybe a gem or other NON functional little dot or marker. Not sure if that would be easier than adding Incumbent Governor "John or Jane Doe" to the Governor if they decide to run again.
     
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  13. slippjeem

    slippjeem Slightly Crazed
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    Yes and many people do like me and I have the same char names on every shard (and I mean EVERY) for each account, I too remember the BS double name trying to steal Dot's governorship on GL she had to basically have someone there 24/7 to let you know who was who which is total BS...

    Rathgar Of GL
     
  14. SunWolf

    SunWolf Seasoned Veteran
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    The king can always remove the person if they cause any problems during thier term. But on the voting stone, it does show your name and your guild. Make a guild if your not in one when you run for governor so you know which is you. If you have the same names with the same guilds names, then that is a guild problem.
     
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  15. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    Indicating the incumbent governor is something that was said would be "looked into" after the March election. I was saddened to see that it wasn't part of the changes last publish.

    But, in all seriousness, it shouldn't be left to the EMs to police the elections...at least not directly. Removing a governor will most likely be to crys of faoritism and bias. Without some clear, well-posted guidelines for what is and isn't acceptable during an election, along with either GM enforcement, or a Dev, this doppelganger problem will only get worse.

    Nobody cares about characters with the same name, that's never been the issue. The issue is when people create characters with the sole purpose of imitating another player with the intent to defame and commit fraud. That is harassment and is clearly against the ToS.

    At this point, I'm eager to see the ToS rigorously enforced. Its past time to cut out the cancer that's been slowly killing UO.
     
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  16. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    1. Devs should use this + Dot Warner as examples to strengthen the system. Showing which candidate is the incumbent would work well.

    2. As in Nails' case, don't just sit back and let it happen. Nails never told an EM or Dev to even SEE if something could be done to help him, (Such as him making a guild, and them helping get it put on the stone).

    3. Use the experience in your RP, create an awesome story out of it. Every story needs a villain, and Atlantic as just handed a very good one.

    4. Move on! Nails is a Governor on his home shard Catskills. So while it sucks he lost out on Atlantic, atleast he has the shard he REALLY cares about.

    When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. There is so much potential with what happened, to create an awesome storyline amongst governors! Imagine the next meeting, every governor WALKED OUT in protest! That would be an awesome scene and could provide so much fodder for stories.
     
  17. Jerec KTM

    Jerec KTM Journeyman

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    Sorry, but this is some of the most horrible advice... ever. "You got griefed! Move on! Don't bother the precious Devs or others about it now!".... cause that is sooooo how things get fixed. If all we were supposed to do was sit down and keep our mouths shut every time an obvious abuse of the system happened, then the game wouldn't have lasted this long.

    The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

    Maybe you like creating obvious OOC stories in game as RP (reminder, that is what the Council is for!), but any sensible person will see that it is just OOC grief. Trying to build a story around that does nothing but empower the griefer and leave the the aggrieved with their unit in hand pee'n into the wind.
     
    #17 Jerec KTM, Jun 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2014
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  18. Jerec KTM

    Jerec KTM Journeyman

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    @Tanieran

    This only works if the person is standing at the stone. Guild abbreviations do not show on the voting stone and can not be used for identifying the proper voter.
     
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  19. Jerec KTM

    Jerec KTM Journeyman

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    Yes... I remember when every Governor from Great Lakes except maybe one or two went to the Mesanna meeting after the March elections to press the devs about the griefing that occurred on Great Lakes with Dot Warner, and the fake Dot Warner (Superspot of DC). Mesanna cut all of them off saying it was a Catskills only meeting (this after they advertised it as a Governor Issue Meeting for all being held on Catskills). She then promised to meet with us soon on Great Lakes (never happened). I know I personally sent an email about it, requesting an update as to when that was going to happen, but received no response. Everyone knows who the person was running the griefing (I think Kyronix even called him out on it at the Catskills meeting for impersonating Dot Warner), but that person has continued to go unpunished. She doesn't seem to really care about the issue from the way she completely stone walled Great Lakes.

    I find that amusing in particular with how Mesanna flipped out on someone for naming their character "Mesanna's Husband". If it offends her, immediate action, if it offends the rest of her player base but not her, who cares.

    I'm not surprised that this has now come to bite them back in the arse of the only shard they seem to really care about, Atlantic.
     
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  20. Promathia

    Promathia EM Bennu Fanclub
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    Don't worry, GL has its meeting soon - 7pm ET July 30, 2014, to be exact.

    I get why everyone is upset, but what are they going to do? The best possible scenario, is them making the stone show who the incumbent is. Besides that, what more do you really want them to do? UO doesn't have unique names.
     
  21. Riyana

    Riyana Operations
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    Yes, there is potential for storyline here, but that doesn't negate the fact that it came about from a player dishonestly manipulating the system. Per the official UO naming policy this is considered inappropriate (emphasis mine):

    You can quibble semantics and say that deliberately impersonating another player with the intent to sway an election isn't "defamation" per se, but I think the gist is clear. You aren't supposed to name characters to deliberately confuse identities with another player to negatively impact their gameplay. It's a grief tactic.

    To be perfectly honest I don't think any single person should have multiple governorships across multiple shards and cities. However, Nails himself and his governorship(s) are not the issue here--the use of and tolerance for a tactic that should be considered grief and harassment is the issue.

    This problem should have been addressed when it happened to Dot Warner on Great Lakes. It should not have gotten to this point, and Great Lakes shouldn't have had to wait four months just to be heard by the devs. (And that Catskills meeting was a mess on many levels.)

    So what can be done about it? Some enforcement of the rules! I know they can never and will never be able to catch and suspend or ban every griefer, harasser, and cheater in the game, but in a case where it is very obvious and easily tracked, like with the governors, there really isn't an excuse for tolerating it.

    UO has a long history of tolerance for grief tactics and bad behavior, and it hurts every system they try to implement and wears down honest players. It seems like it would be a lot easier to enforce the rules than to design and redesign the game around the miscreants, griefers, and cheaters. It seems like it would be a lot more beneficial to the community in general to punish the bad eggs than to expect everyone else to constantly work around and accommodate them. (And isn't community most of the point of the governors system?) Why has gracious tolerance of bad behavior always been the expectation in UO?
     
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  22. TandaBSK

    TandaBSK Seasoned Veteran
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    I have been accused I guess its as close to the word I want as I can get, but of being Polly Anna ish... rose colored glasses, try to keep it positive and look for the good. It gets you through a lot, but over the 14 years I've watched this game grind that spirit of good will and cooperation out of so many. It saddens me, there are a lot of those I game with who have been here longer than I have, and log in times have dwindled, motivation to come here to relax and have fun has faded, account holdings have dwindled some due to financial concerns... but even that I think has been an underlying feeling of why should I continue to pay for these accounts when I could take that money and enjoy it else where. Most of those I game with have had at minimum 3 accounts many more than 6. If you love something and enjoy it you will make great strides to stretch that budget to make it work. I at one time had 5, my own little hamlet in Minoc, I now keep 2 and toy constantly with do I moth ball the 2nd.

    I've been very blessed in that in general there are very few in this game I can't stomach or ignore and put out of my thoughts, I work hard to be a "good egg" Trying to pep talk old friends is getting harder. The atmosphere of game is much like the bad relationship... the victim is expected to walk away, turn the other cheek, put up with it, and I know for many there is a lot more questioning if NOW is the time to just walk away from more than a decade of their past and let it go and that is countered by a passionate need to try to save what they have so much invested in. Not just in money. Many of these folks have known me through 2 kids, a grandchild who is now a teen, we've been through deaths of family and friends irl, and in game, birth of children, marriages, divorces all because we met in a game. That game is loved not only for the fun it's given but for the relationships that are made by playing with the same folks for years.

    Surely there has to be a least reasonable fix that doesn't require 4 people 40 hours of work to fix, at least the immediate issue of HOW to make sure candidates can be distinguished from one another. SKIPPING the whole TOS thing. What about a font change? Could a solution work in changing say Zeros [0] to something that doesn't look like a letter o a means to make copying harder? Perhaps first Governors meeting the Governors get Tattooed or engraved with incumbent that lasts til the end of the next election? something that you can click on at Blackthorn's castle?
    Or it tattoos you when you sit in your Governor's seat, since that seat only allows the Governor to sit in it. Or that you have to refresh by coming an parking your character in that chair at least monthly? not sure seems like it should be possible since our titles disappear.