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Waki Nerf?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Old Vet Back Again, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    @Bleak @Kyronix

    So you guys nerfed waki? Why wasn't any of this put in the publish notes? Or, if it was can you please link me to the appropriate place?

    This just seems like it was waaaaaay to much. There was a much better balance to it; make it so you can apple out of the slow walk just like mass sleep and put a reduction or diminishing return if it is spammed. I have no idea what prompted you guys to give it such a strong nerf, please feel free to explain why!
     
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  2. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    it was on test for long time. bit too late now, time to talk about it was a month ago. plus theres mastery based slow effect now so thats why they probably decided to nerf it.
     
  3. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    As much as that makes sense... Some people probably didnt do any testing on stuff like that because UO didnt say they were changing stuff like that...

    It probably would have been tested had UO actually told its customer base what it was doing in the background. UO is the king of changing something with out telling anyone, then dealing with the consequences later...
     
  4. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Well, I was in the focus group and can tell you that no where was it stated that this was happening. Also, after each publish to the beta server and TC we saw the patch notes and nothing stated anything like this. So gratz to you smoot for catching it. I was not aware that there were other game changes being made to PVP besides masteries/virtues so why would I check waki?
     
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  5. -Hey Arnold-

    -Hey Arnold- Seasoned Veteran

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    Great change..now just need to fix mortals and were good to go :)
     
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  6. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    It was too drastic. Let's be fair. Stacking it and spamming it did need an adjustment, but killing it down to 1 second basically makes the weapon obsolete. SW is now more desirable, is passive and cost 0 mana. Today's loot pub makes it also easily attainable...

    Mortal does need some serious attention, but hopefully they will actually talk with us prior to just implementing something...
     
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  7. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Personally I think this is really lame. Just another example of over-nerfing something. Just because people complain about something being over powered, doesn't mean you should render it completely useless. If the waki was such a huge issue, why was splintering not modified also? People get disarmed splintered and moving shot, or armor ignored to death, with virtually no way of countering it.

    The correct solution would have been....
    1. make the waki slow and splintering something you can apple out of, and
    2. make it so it cannot be chained over and over. if you get waki slowed or splintered.. you cannot be slowed by either effect again for 10-15 seconds.
    Problem solved.
    Why instead are you going to make yet another weapon in this game completely useless?
     
  8. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    transcendent likes this.
  9. ZippyTwitch

    ZippyTwitch Lore Keeper
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    What the heck is Waki?
     
  10. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    *points to the post above yours*
     
  11. Mooselisted

    Mooselisted Seasoned Veteran

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    I think more of a balanced approach would be making the affects diminishing as @Old Vet Back Again stated.
    I feel like this should be applied to a lot of weapon specs IMO.

    Disarm, the timer to rearm on consecutive disarms should be shorter.
    Consecutive mortals duration should be shorter.
    Consecutive Dismounts should also have a shorter timer to remount.

    And also making it so apples are able to remove splintering and waki , as suggested..

    Also, I feel like a player that is hit with a dismount should not be able to smoke bomb right away, either.

    Granted, I don't think the timer should be as long as remounting.. However, there should be some sort of timer there.



    ICQ: 246 356 049
     
  12. Mooselisted

    Mooselisted Seasoned Veteran

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    Wakizashi.

    Swords weapon.


    ICQ: 246 356 049
     
  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Waki damage is crazy powerful, especially considering the damage it does on a 2 sec weap. having any slow effect at all is nasty, 1 second still keeps it a goto weap but not quite as op.

    Like the changr, and agree, they need to fix the mortal timer. I seem to remember it didn't used to be broken...
     
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  14. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    The problem with balancing is there no good measure of specials and hit effects.

    Last time they tried balancing they went through swing speed and base damage and made a few adjustments to specials.

    The only way to balance specials is to put the same timer on all of them.

    Diminishing returns was a fail because you could still spam it.
     
  15. jopromol

    jopromol Lore Master
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    AMEN!
     
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  16. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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  17. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Frenzied whirlwind is still spammable, but now you have to use it with every swing to keep someone force walked (should have been like this since that effect was added to it)... It's still effective, but it's more of a group thing now more so than it was.A 4 second forced walk with added damage overtime was dumb as hell and never should have been like that.


    (now to get casting focus & poison immunity removed completely!)

    Who's with me !?!?! :D
     
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  18. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    The duration of the "slow effect" was reduced from 4 seconds down to roughly 2 seconds.
    (pvp only)
     
  19. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    But that's not a recent change Those notes I linked to give the time duration as 2 seconds.
     
  20. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    It seemed to have not taken effect until the beta test/Eodon release to TC1 then, cause during beta it was still 4 seconds on live shards.

    Edit: Those notes were talking about the "Damage overtime" added via the special, not the forced walk effect.

    The damage overtime effect seems to remain unchanged, just the slow effect has been reduced.
     
  21. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    Balancing pvp for the UO staff will always be hard for a couple reasons.

    1. They dont PvP
    2. They dont use pvpers for focus groups typically because they have reports on their accounts
    3. They only get a small handfull of pvpers that are "clean" enough to listen to
    4. They dont understand game mechanics
    5. They are the ones that put RNG in to pvp.... <---- this being the worst...
    6. They assume everyone is using UOA or EC only.... lol.
    7. they make changes to things with out letting anyone know or testing....
     
    #21 Scribbles, Oct 15, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
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  22. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    There was one simple fix to wakis that could have been put in place: Diminishing returns.

    The only reason why the waki was so ridiculously overpowered is because of the damage and spam people did with it, not the initial forced-walk effect. 1 person spams frenzied whirlwind while another person disarms and ai spams. There is virtually no way to live through that unless you have people helping you.

    Instead, frenzied whirlwind was completely nerfed.

    A 2 second forced-walk is barely relevant in a straight up 1v1 fight, and if it's a gank then it's still not OP because in a 2v1 the 1 should have less of a chance to win anyway.... Bring the 4 second duration back. Make it so they can't be frenzy whirlwinded again for another 10 seconds. Do NOT share this cooldown with splintering or you'll nerf the hell out of that.

    This is why more people need to actually play betas and pre-patches on TC. The amount of people that actually test new things is pretty low. Then the developers don't get feedback and a nerf goes live that puts the community feeling dazed and confused.

    Oh and nerf parry and remove casting focus while you're at it because it's making dexer templates 50% useless.
     
    #22 sibble, Oct 16, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2015
  23. O'siris

    O'siris Journeyman
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    Leave mortals nerf mages with armor ignores!!! :p
     
  24. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    MAges don't need nerfed
     
  25. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    120 parry has a lower block rate then a 120 weapon skill with 45 hci/dci
     
  26. Bleak

    Bleak UO Software Engineer
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    Apologizes for the absence of this change. The notes have been updated http://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/publish-notes/publish-90/. We look at all feedback players report to us when making a change that effects combat. In the case of Frenzied Whirlwind we have been watching it ever since it was updated to include the movement slow. Since Frenzied Whirlwind offers a guaranteed slow the duration was lowered because of its power. We will continue monitor all aspects of combat power and look forward to your feedback.
     
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  27. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    I guess you should add the changes to Dis-arm in there as well??? You guys really blew it on these IMO. Making changes without actually addressing the PvP community is a horrible idea. I am glad you "followed" the feedback for some time, but that doesn't mean that you should draw your own conclusion without actually speaking to the community. Listening to the public and forming your own conclusion is not the same as having an open dialog...
     
  28. Peekay

    Peekay Slightly Crazed

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    That's because the few actual pvpers who get into "focus groups" are often spoken over by bigots and hardcore trammies alike who one time went to fel and died to a person so that "ruined their experience" and anything a pvper says needs to be met with extreme adversity because that trammy doesnt fully understand situation or grasp the concepts at hand... And they're clearly the only people who's experience and opinions matter. And thus the bulk of feedback that might get replied to or taken into consideration by the devs is completely drowned out.

    Personally I've given up on Focus groups, let the trammies cry for change, they dont whine about the pvpers and only discuss their trammy stuff in these "focus" groups until someone speaks up about wanting something to happen in fel, then you might as well have just slapped their mother/child/whatever because hell breaks loose and "oh **** no you didn't just come up in my focus group and drop the F-BOMB (fel). I DONT CONSIDER FEL CONTENT --blah blah blah"

    I've decided that I no longer care what changes, personally I will just adapt, figure out something completely OP and smash nerds into the ground until the next "focus group" or expansion when things change again, prolly in about 10 years.

    On a side note, you trammies now have five different facets of your own content, whereas us pvpers, pks and reds still only have one. Stop being greedy/whiney little ******* (oh hey, another uncensored word @Captn Norrington) and be happy with the continued content you receive. And no, since I know someone will say it, I don't want another facet for pvpers. I just want a proactive and continuous focus group for the pvpers, consisting of pvpers with good knowledge of the game and the happenings of various servers and group dynamics. A group that could hopefully be mature enough so the devs will take seriously and communicate with. Which means not being full of people crying about their templates being nerfed.

    Oh... I suppose this too, @Bleak
     
    #28 Peekay, Oct 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2015
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  29. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    PK for UO president.
     
  30. BeaIank

    BeaIank Babbling Loonie
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    I am a proud trammie, but PeeKay makes a very compelling and strong argument.
    It would be quite positive for the game to have a future publish focused only or mostly on balancing and improving PvP in UO by enrolling PvPers to provide input and feedback during the development of said publish.
     
  31. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    Yes, technically it does. But when the percentages are multiplicative There is a huge difference. 120 parry gives you 35% chance to block. 120 weapon skills activates your DCI so if you have 45 dci/120mele vs an opponent with 120 weapon and 45 hci you have a 50% chance to block. When running both 120 parry/mele the % to block is now 72.75%. That means for every 4 swings you should block roughly 3 of them. Granted HLD reduces this, but not enough to make it THAT significant...
     
  32. drcossack

    drcossack Babbling Loonie
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    I love you.
     
  33. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure these don't stack, and I'm not certain where you're getting 72.75%.

    Even if the max block was 3 out of 4 , this means they're hitting at least once every 5 seconds.
     
  34. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    DCI rolls first, then parry rolls. Should DCI fail then the Parry has a chance to proc thus making the % multiplicative.

    I agree and feel it is somewhat balanced because of that simple fact, but it could probably be decreased a bit...
     
  35. cobb

    cobb Journeyman

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    I have a feeling this is an unintended change. But they figured it will take too much effort to fix it. So now it is "working as intended"
     
  36. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    What happened to disarm besides the mastery giving it the ability to be blocked?
     
  37. cobb

    cobb Journeyman

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    I meant the change to the wakizashi.
     
  38. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    From what I have tested, and I cannot really pin point it exactly to it's new parameters, but It appears that once the dis-arm goes off there is a very long cool down. +/- 10seconds.

    So now we have a passive mastery that gives a chance to block the dis-arm entirely along with a substantial cool down...I haven't really come to a conclusion on this yet, but I think I am going to like it because I might be able to start playing mage weapon's again.
     
  39. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    There's been a 10 second cool down on disarm for a while now
     
  40. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    There is definitely a difference, like I said I cannot pin point the exact timing/change but it allows you to re equip and stay equipped a lot longer

    Just spoke to @Giggles and from what she stated the cool down timer on dis-arm start after the dis-arm wears off. It use to start once dis-armed. Correct me if I am wrong Gigs.
     
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  41. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    Yes the timer is different. There is a larger gap of time now. Use to be when I disarmed someone, about 2-3 second after they re-arm I could disarm them again. Now there is a much longer wait before I can disarm them again after they re-equip the weapon.
    This change I am fine with.

    The passive mastery of preventing disarm's also seems to proc A LOT making it much harder to disarm spam archers and throwers. This I am also OK with.

    The Waki change... I am still not accepting it. Waki Vs splintering everything... splintering is by far more powerful when used with some weapons on some builds. Yes you can control a waki slow... but it costs mana. Splintering is just whenever the hell it hits, which on some weapons is very frequent. Splinter also adds the bleed effect. The waki should still have a 4 second slow, and the waki slow AND splinter should both be able to be appled out of. Diminishing returns also should apply.

    /end rant.
     
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  42. OREOGL

    OREOGL Babbling Loonie
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    Yep, this is right but that doesn't make it 72.75%. It makes it once chance at 35% and once at 50% IF you are using 120 weapon skill.

    Doesn't make sense to nerf parry at all based on this.
     
  43. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Disarm was relied in way too much... I like the change if that's how its adjusted.
     
  44. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Waki slow should be appleable though, I like the new change mainly because frenzied does a TON of damage for as fast as it is. Sleep is appleable and effected by resist.

    I hate splinter, but it is also now not falling on any good weaps as they are all brittle, and the ones that aren't are lesser. Its also counter able with bandages.
     
  45. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    My math is 100% correct. When you have 2 statistics stacking, not adding it makes it multiplicative. Just like with adding medusa scales to more than one piece. Same concept and math applied.

    **edit

    Also, why would you use parry and not 120 weapon, mageweapon or anat/eval? If you don't have any of those you will get hit 100%
     
  46. Giggles

    Giggles Forum Administrator
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    True on the splinter, but not everyone uses bandaids to be able to counter it. Apples everyone can use, so both should be able to be cleared with apples.
     
  47. Drowy

    Drowy Seasoned Veteran
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    Well if you got 35% Parry chance with 120 Weapon skill, you first get hit 50%. The 50% hits you can parry 35%. Thats 35% of 50%. My math tells me its 17.5%. So you get hit 32.5% or wont get hit 67.5%.
     
  48. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Didn't mean to de-rail, was just posting as a joke...

    anyway.. frenzied whirlwind!
     
  49. Old Vet Back Again

    Old Vet Back Again Slightly Crazed

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    50% + ((100% - 35%) x 35%) = 72.75%
     
  50. sibble

    sibble Lore Master
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    Base 5% chance to always miss anything. Which really feels like 15%