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Wammy`s next on the Chopping Block?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Zalan, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Since, Sampires have been on the chopping block. Do you think Wammy`s are next up?
    (Wammy is Wraith Form + Samuria)
    Whats your opion?

    Edit:
    You also have to consider Humans require No Skill Points to achive Wraith Form. Humans natural have 20 in Necro do to Jack of All Trades. Shouldn`t Wraith Forms minium to cast be raised to 30? so its complaint with the new change
     
  2. As I said in the other post, complaints will start as soon as Tamers see the wammy's in their hunting spots instead of the sampires.


    I guess then they'll call for the wammy waaaahmbulance.
     
  3. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    ROFL!!!!

    Do you listen to the Bob & Tommy radio show?
     
  4. As I don't know a Bob or a Tommy, or even listen to regular radio, I'd have to say no.
     
  5. My opinion is that the majority of people who like the change to items/forms are mistakingly taking it as a sampire nerf, when it's really just an item nerf - most people playing sampires seem in agreement that it won't make much difference.

    As the question applied to wammys is based on that mistake I can't see anything happening to them.
     
  6. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Ive played both. Many mobs have limited mana pool. And when their mana pool is dry you will no longer be able to leech more mana. And also it takes more time to leech mana=>stop and cast something=>HP than leech HP period. Also, without SS it leeches next to NOTHING. Vamp form is at its 100% power even with 0 ss. Feel free to go for Wammy it will take you MORE skill points than what you expect. Well if you really do play a whammy you will know what I am saying. And you know better thats why you played a sampire and not the whammy.

    I cant sleep tonight so I will give you even more info on your whammy whaaaabulance argument.

    Vamp Form:
    Pros: Zero SS requirement+HUGE Stam regen+Mana regen+Permanent petal+MOUNTED+instant life leech.

    Cons: Fire resist (most suits completely negates it), Garlic damage (non-factor for sampires my life leech EASILY negates this damage anyways)

    Wahhhh Form:
    Pros: Go thru mobs (well might be useful if you do peerless in fel), leeches mana.

    Cons: Cant be mounted, requires SS, HP comes indirectly and requires casting which stops you from attacking and can get interrupted and lotta times you will be killed because you simply cant cast heals fast enough and when you are casting you are NOT attacking thus NOT leeching anything.


    Yeah people probably whahhhhhh about sampires and sampires dont? LoL
    All I see thesedays are sampires WHAHHHHHHHing/quitting over a bug fix. :coco:

    And YES indeed. Whammy is also chopped in the very same fix that's going to affect Vamp form. If you had zero necro and you use items to get enough skill to go whammy you will be dropped back to human form when you take the item off. So your point is???
     
  7. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    *groans*

    If the wammy's all use real skill there's no issue.

    Everyone with half a brain knows that being top damage dealer means everyone wants you nerfed, so if there's a tamer who wants to whine about wammy templates in order to remove them is utterly, completely stupid. Seriously, that would be the best way to shoot yourself in the foot if you were a tamer and your class was already earmarked for a "balance" as ours is. Go pick a fight with another set of warriors when they already call to get you nerfed on a daily basis :D I'll bet that now tamers have moved up the damage ranks, there will be so much complaining from warriors and other classes that we are conclusively "balanced" pretty dang soon. Which hopefully silences the complaints in the warrior ranks ;) Bring it on, I say...

    Wenchy
     
  8. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    And YES indeed. Whammy is also chopped in the very same fix that's going to affect Vamp form. If you had zero necro and you use items to get enough skill to go whammy you will be dropped back to human form when you take the item off. So your point is???
    ___________________________________________________________

    Actually wrong. Human Wammy`s have a natural 20 in Necro do the Jack of all trades skill. So, they are not affected by this. Maybe Wraith form should require 30 in skill instead of 20 to make it complaint.

    To my knowlegde Wraith form is the only form for Humans that can be achived with NO REAL SKILL POINTS.
     
  9. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    This will not be on the chopping block next unless it too requires a workaround to temporarily bump up skill points.

    However since it will fall into the same fix as Vamp Form (in that you have to retain the points to retain the form), it won't be nerfed, balanced, or whatever until we see an all-inclusive combat revamp.
     

  10. squirrel, rabbit and rat form too!
     
  11. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Connor...when are you going to stop crying?

    FYI...there is a HUGE difference between jack of all trades and skill jewels. In essence you are argueing that the jack of all trades bonus should be taken away because people are able to *do things* without having the *real skill*. I guess it doesnt surprise me that you are bringing your complaint here now... pancakes about tamers and thier jewels didnt seem to satiate your need to express your discontent in template pwnage?

    I gave you a heads up on this upcoming change a whole month ago. You had an entire month to prepare...change your template...and move on. A whole month...so dont complain about this stuff now...its not our fault you squandered that time and didnt make the necessary adjustments. Complaining about other stuff is not the answer to your own template taking the pwn. It only ends up making you look like an idiot in the end for making baseless complaints. (being human is not a cheat...and niether is it a cheat to wear jewels on a tamer.)

    Again...quit crying and get over it.
     
  12. I'm not crying. Show me where please. I made a statement based on the topic, nothing more, nothing less. I've also plainly said I didn't have a problem with them changing anything, but that my problem was with them making a change after they'd said they weren't going to. That can be seen as going back on their word, or outright telling a lie. Either way, they were in the wrong for saying one thing then doing another. There's no problem with WHAT they did, it was HOW they went about doing it.

    No crying here. Never is.

    When are you going to stop trolling would be a better question.

    :gun:
     
  13. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    It'll be pretty soon. I think the main reason people whined about sampires were because they could solo the high-end stuff. I give it a couple months til they nerf the new peerless soloing flavor of the month.
     
  14. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    As stated by a few other posters, they didn't nerf Sampires in particular, they nerfed a method of sliding around the skill points necessary to play a Sampire. Anyone who toiok the time to reconfigure their character will be fine.

    Wraith Form will be working under the same rules as Vamp Form.

    The ONLY thing the power of the Sampire brought to light was the use of a slide-around trick to bypass the restrictions of the skill point system and that is being corrected for ALL form levels, not just Vamp Form.
     
  15. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Actually, it's pretty much like they did nerf sampires in particular... If people on forums didn't ***** and whine about it constantly, they wouldn't have even known about the "exploit". And nobody ever complained about the forms other than vampiric embrace.
     
  16. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Heh...well...complaining about honest change I usually interpret as crying. My apologies if you really are indifferent.

    Trolling? Adding my input is far from trolling, it can be reffered often times as constructive criticism. I suppose to certain people this could be seen as troling...especially if the person using the term to describe me was butthurt over something I said. :D
     
  17. Telling someone to stop crying is trolling. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and everything to do with trolling a post.

    And yeah, I'm not worried about the change. It took all of 2 hours to have a wammy template set up, and with a few hours more, will be able to have both a wammy AND a sampire template that can be swapped out on soulstones depending on what I'm planning on fighting.
     
  18. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    So....

    What you are saying is that I shouldnt complain about exploits YOU use?
    How about those whom exploit weapon specials? And those that used stabled dogs to regen health? Stabled wisps?

    Really Ender...all of these can be put into the same category of exploit...



    oh...and how about speedhacking? The devs once said speedhacks were LEGAL...does that make them ok to use today?
     
  19. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Except all those things actually are exploits that give players a great advantage over others, especially in PvP. Vamp form is next to useless in PvP, and in PvM it doesn't hurt anyone.
     
  20. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Wrong...being in direct opposition to your opinion is not trolling. Second, I will tell someone to stop crying if they use the *well what about..* to defend their position. If you really wish to defend your position perhaps you should point out to us WHY it isnt harmful to the game, instead of pointing out the flaws in other systems. I relate that directly to crying...again...if I was mistaken my apologies...if not...perhaps move on like you say you are?
     
  21. Telling someone to stop crying isn't stating an opposing view. It's a slam against that person, which is trolling.

    That said I'm done discussing what's a troll and what isn't. Either you get it or you don't. A constructive discussion can be had without slams against one person or another.
     
  22. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    No...vamp was just as much an exploit...and could be used with EXTREME effect in PvP on the right templates. In PvM you had people farming peerless solo, which made it difficult for others that wanted to have the same fun as a group. (making 10 people wait two hours for one person to finish a peerless isnt hurting anyone?) In PvM you also had ALOT of gold farmers using vamp form...dont forget about them.
     
  23. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    LMAO...way to twist stuff around as usual. You see...part of the reason I even made the crying comment was due to the way you enter and exit a conversation. You expect people to agree with you, understand your *method* of explanation...if they dont they are both wrong and undeserving of your *time*. Yeah...thats crying at its best...sorry I had to point that out to you sir.
     
  24. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Extreme effect in PvP... Well, penalty of 25 to fire resist. 3 mana regen, which isn't a HUGE benefit. Stam regen is nice, but refresh potions and divine fury work better. Life leech was pretty unnoticeable in PvP. No use of cure potions, meaning lethal had to be cured by cleanse by fire, which unless you had high chiv and 4/6, wasn't extremely useful. Bandages, you take 4 seconds minimum to cure it, then probably get poisoned again before you get another heal off.

    One person taking 2 hours to finish a peerless? LOL that's a good one... Only people I've seen that take that long are the noobs that go in and die 50 times. They usually give up after that first attempt. I've seen groups take longer than solo players even. And rarely do people ever have to wait in line in my experience on Great Lakes at least. And people can still have the same fun if a few select people can kill a peerless solo.

    Gold farmers using vamp form? The idiot ones that I've seen were all in their own guild, I went to skill averages, and saw that they all had 100 necromancy anyway. So if this change was meant to do anything about that, even as a side effect, LOL at EA.
     
  25. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    OK here is another case of someone who never played the correct template and just post crap based on little information that he/she have gathered.

    First for a Wammy template..... You will need actual necro skill to a point where you don't fail curse weapon!!!! you have to leech life to stay alive ffs.

    If you ever played a wammy template you will know that the template does not require any + skill from items and thus is uneffected by the 56 publish.

    It really makes me mad that people do consider this a nerf when it really is not..... it just lower your dps by a small % because you have to move skill points around...

    For the case of people that uses the "correct" wammy template, publish 56/dev team's reason for changes can not justify for any "nerf"/"changes"

    Like I said get your information straight before you post stuff on this forum please.
     
  26. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    forgot to mention:
    1) 20% of dmg goes back to vamps health. (archers using thsi were extremely nasty...as they have the ability to do 70+ dmg every two seconds via another exploit)
    2) using skill jewels freed up room for resist or healing
    3) sampires can regen thier HP via spell while poisoned
    4) using skill jewels and archery opened up room for bracelet of health for up to 18HP regen (totem+crimmy+b racelet of health+vamp)
    5) vamp is 3 mana regen...4 hp regen

    Hate to say it ender...but this temp was nastier than you thought.


    Sorry but I dont know of anyone whom can solo a peerless and self rez 50 times. Not unless you have weaving...and good luck with that. Two hours? ever solo parox or Grizzle...thought not. Im also sorry that you dont understand how making a planned group event wait on someone chaining a peerless can be desturctive to the game. (I have seen this happen time and time again since peerless came into fruition.)


    Hmmm....I call BS here. Please dont make stuff up...thanks.
     
  27. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Actually, your quite wrong, so get your crap straight. Wammys only requirement is 100 SS in order to be effective. Alot of Wammys use the 4 second bandage due to high dex, & two you can heal by using SS. My point is if there going to make changes to forms. They need to make the changes to Every form. It just shows the Devs missed the Wraith Form.
     
  28. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    They didnt miss anything. You are trying to compare unlike things...its that simple. How?

    1) vamp form requires 99 necro...wraith does not. (jack of all trades is all that is needed.
    2) vamp form didnt require SS to be effective...wraith form in most cases does.
    3) wraith form is limited to foot action only, vamp form is not

    apples to roses...yes they both flower but the similarities end there.
     
  29. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    calling bs on this one, fitting ss with healing and anatomy into a tight temple is unrealistic. Have you played a standard solo peerless wraith temple? apparently not.... A wammy with healing is not a good thing.... wammy of the "correct" template don't even have healing so don't try to make crap up thanks.
     
  30. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Since, when has a 4 second bandage been a bad thing. & here is a hint you don`t have to have anatomy. We must be talking two different templates. Most Wammy have Chivalry. Guess what Curse Weapon can still be used. However, its used liberally as it lowers Gasp Karma which effects Chivalry.

    There is more than one standard Wammy Template.

    & to Restroom Cowboy my how point is if there fixing Forms. Then they need to fix it right the first time. Which would include Wraith Form. They simple need to raise skill to be 20 Real Necro, or 30 Real Necro if they can`t fix Jack of Trades.

    & again the argument is the player base wants skill over items. Guess what Jack of Trades is basically the same thing in this sense. So no its not apple to oranges.
     
  31. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Well it does require a temporary boost in skill points to cast. Otherwise you will sit there for 10 minutes trying to cast at the bare minimum required (20). This has been pointed out for a very long time.
     
  32. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I understand your point...but what does wraith form have to do with any of it? As stated before...it requires SS for it to be effective and cannot be used mounted. Those two REQUIREMENTS make it nothing like vamp form...

    If you are going to suggest that spells be raised...perhaps you wish to take your crusade all the way to nerfing out the jack of all trades skill. I mean you can cast lvl one spells, use skills you otherwise wouldnt be able to use...ect ect. How far do you wish to take these *its not fair* complaints anyway?

    I think its rediculous that eveyone is crying nerf this...nerf that

    all that was changed was the way ONE SPELL worked...ger over it already and move on.
     
  33. Zalan

    Zalan Babbling Loonie
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    Sorry, your wrong yet again. It didn`t change the way one spell worked. It changed the way every Shape Shifting spell worked Except for Wraith Form, & lower lvl ninja forms. Every form that requires more than 20 real skill is effected. Lich, Horrific Beast, Vampiric Embrace, Reaper Form, & every ninja form over 20 skill is effected.

    Thats more than one form. I believe if your going to do something then do it right. All the Sampires will become Wammys, & Wammys will then be nerfed. Get it out the way now.
     
  34. Not necessarily. I think those with enough soulstones will become both.



    This I don't disagree with. The complaints should start soon.....


    T minus one cry of overpowered and counting.....
     
  35. Addicted

    Addicted Guest

    Do you understand the reson they "nerfed" Sampires?
    People used items to avoid spending skill points, this the dev team considered unacceptable

    Wammys or whatever you call them, do NOT use the same bug, so why would the devs touch them?

    This has NOT been done, because the Sampires where superior in damage output. It was done because of the shortcut people took to be able to change form into a vampire.

    Nerfing Wammys would take a whole new logic/explantion from the dev team.
     
  36. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Pardon me...I didnt think the others really mattered as the only one that truly was affected WAS vamp form.

    By your own definition, all forms that require over 20 skill were included...so why do you feel wraith form SHOULD be included? I mean...besides saying *because I said so*. Wraith form is pretty much useless without SS...so I have yet to see the advantages of using it without skill in either PvP or PvM...enlighten me please...change my mind.
     
  37. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    I did mention the life leech. Vamp form has ZERO HP regen. And everyone can regen HP while poisoned through items, gift of renewal, or life leech... And the benefits aren't really worth the effort of vamping every time you die.

    Paroxysmus only takes about half an hour to solo. Haven't tried grizzle. And solo players can't "chain" a peerless unless using two accounts. And when I solo Dread or Paroxysmus, I rarely ever see groups waiting, and I stand far enough down on the island (at Dread) where I could see people on the altar if they were there. At Paroxysmus, you can't see people waiting, but I rarely ever see people getting keys while I'm gathering them, or while I'm running back to the cauldron after a run. It's not really that common of a peerless to do, mostly I see people at Travesty, Dreadhorn, and Lady Mel. And at Lady M, the only one I consistently see people waiting at, if there's only one or two people in there, guess what "class" they are. Not dexers. It's the one that nobody complains about, even though they're just as capable of soloing high end stuff as dexers.

    And BS at the gold farmers having GM necro? It's true. I don't remember the names of any of the identical darkwood suit, monk robe, soul seeker/exiler vamp form farmers, and I think it would be against the TOS to say their names anyway, but on uo.com they all had either 100 necromancy or 85 necromancy. 85 + 15 bracelet = 100... Enough to maintain vamp form even after this change.
     
  38. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Hmmm...perhaps I am wrong then on the HPR for vamp...its been a couple years since using that temp...my mistake. I personally thought it was very well worth the vamp form while using the temp...the life leech was enough to have me convinced.

    The peerless I really have no arguements on...its been too long since I soloed any with a sammy. However I have seen people chain them without a second account by having another person place the keys for them. That point is pretty much moot though.

    In relation to the scripters using it...I guess the ones you mention were just thinking ahead on things. :) Most of those I had seen I would use a *remove curse* tally on didnt renew the spell...that could be due to them scripting! *grins* I suppose they used necro SS since they could cast protection and not be interrupted with the SS? Who knows...but my apologies for saying hogwash.

    Oh yeah...Ender...How about you adjust the template and try to find something that works for you? Half of the challenge to me was reworking and building characters...and as a long time vet I can only assume its been awhile since you reinvented your chars. :)
     
  39. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Hehe, no problem. I haven't adjusted the template on my main yet, I'm keeping my favorite template as long as possible, but I already got quite a few templates brainstormed, and I already have a wraith samurai right now. Oh well, half the fun I had was training the char up and learning how to use it. Guess I get to experience that again?
     
  40. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    INDEED! you now have another reason to stay addicted (on top of a reason to play mind you) to this wonderful game. YAY!!!!!
     
  41. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    I'm new on the boards and to necro/sammy skills; I am human with no trained necro skill - tried blood oath 20 times and failed all; put on 2 +15 jewels, tried 20 times, nada - against dark wisps, evil mages, mongbats, rabbits, etc. What is it I'm Doing wrong?


    I have 0 SS - it didn't say it was required - I never run, I just hate spending my time w/ crap that don't work
     
  42. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    lmao...perhaps try adding SS instead of running into the woods without a helmet next time. :) I heard this works great!

    Edit: I honestly thought this was a joke Sevin. I didnt realize you were a new player entirely. Any gameplay questions you have should be directed to the UO Payers Corner forums. They will help you with all questions dealing with being a new player.
     
  43. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    >>adding SS instead of running into the woods without a helmet

    I suppose that makes sense in your world, thank you for informing me of how to accomplish that.
     
  44. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The UO Guide states that Spirit Speak is necessary:

    http://www.uoguide.com/Blood_Oath

    Also, sometimes the minimum skill just means that you can technically cast the spell, but it'll only succeed like 1 out of 1,000 times or something ridiculous like that.

    The "real" minimum for any spell is typically, oh, say, about 10 to 25 above the stated minimum.

    -Galen's player
     
  45. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    Thanks Galen for the link. I see how SS affects the Duration, but i'm still not understanding the failure/success rate (spell fizzles).
     
  46. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    My apologies on the sarcasm...

    To be more specific the Spirit Speak skill is necessary to make use of most of the necromancy spells effectively.

    If you are a new player, it is important to know that many skills require a second skill in order work properly.

    Hope that helps.
     
  47. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Replying to several threads at once:

    1. Most likely Wraith form will require non-JOAT points to cast. After all, they have made exceptions to the effects of JOAT before (Parrying & Bushido interaction, the resists from Resist Spells, etc.)

    2. WarUltima: The notion that Mana Leech requires the target to HAVE mana is erroneous. The devs have REPEATEDLY pointed this out, and people still don't seem to hear it..

    The "Leech" weapon properties give you whatever their multiplier is, times the damage you do, as points back - they have NEVER actually taken points from your opponent's mana pool, stamina pool, or Hit points (well, other than the damage you actually DO to them as HP). Mana leech is NOT a Mana Vampire spell - it just converts some of the damage the weapon does into mana for the wielder.

    3. As long as the whammies have sufficient equipment on to maintain their forms, I don't see what any issue will be. After all, as one of you pointed out, enough Necro skill to cast Curse Weapon 100% & GM Spirit Speak are vital parts of the template, and means a more balanced template than "I'm gonna toss some equipment, cast, then remove all that and change to my combat suit" that is the soon-to-be-gone fake Sampire default (all the more reasons why I actually admire the rare true Sampires that did it without the gimp gear change).

    4. Folks need to be a little more adventurous in their templates, anyways. How many of YOU, for example, have done a level 6 map solo with a melee warrior of any flavor (including the cartography & lockpicking, and without soulstone changes of skills)? I see all these people wanting to have the game made more easy, then ***** about the lack of challenges. If one would just look, they can MAKE their own challenges, simply by altering their characters. After all, on many non-online games, you often replay them with higher difficulty, for a better challenge - or with a less powerful character (or less powerful weapons, etc.) - be they fighting games like Street fighter or Mortal Kombat series, or combat/strategy games like Jagged Alliance II, Fallout or warcraft/starcraft (hell, even things like SimCity!).

    You can do the same in UO, simply by going for the skill combinations less chosen - and might even find yourself having fun again...
     
  48. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I did notice that in PvP you draw mana directly from your opponents pool when in wraith form. *grins*

    Edit: not sure if you are gaining mana from casting spells or from being hit by them...but it is very noticeable.
     
  49. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    See...
    This situation cannot be called a bug when it is clear the game was intended to function in a completely backwards fashion....

    Hit , Mana, Stamina Leech needs to do exactly what it says it does , not simply convert damage into hitpoints , mana, stamina etc
    This way the target is actually weakened by the use of leeching weapons.
     
  50. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

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    Wraith form takes 140+ skill points to use. It breaks no skill point rules; and those extra skill points normally come out of healing and anatomy. So you cannot effectivley heal on the run, rez, and your damage is also reduced.