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We have to discuss this: player induced crashes possible?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Thav12, Jun 4, 2011.

  1. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Are they? Can players really run some kind of script/program/whatever to make other players crash? It is rumoured in PvP. It does happen that when PvP gets busy, suddenly, players seem to crash. But is this really intentionally done, or the result of running illicit programs? Despite the rampant accusations, I am actually not so sure. It may have to do with stress on servers, or due to the very tight way most pvp'rs send commands to the server. If that is the case, perhaps this is a bug that the Devs can look into.

    I know that people claim to be able to "feel" when others turn on speeders and such, but purely technically, that should be impossible. Moreover, any modern computer has speeds that are so far ahead of 1997... I know about packet cycles and such, so I can imagine that you can fire off packets faster, but the pace of the game is ultimately determined by the server. A faster client (EC) can not be outpaced by "speeders". Since I exclusively play the EC, i did notice that when the crashes were occurring, everything "lagged" and slowed on the screen. Once all had crashed, my speed picked up again.

    I don't doubt the crashes, but I wonder about the mechanism behind it. I vote for server side bug, not script or program. Perhaps you disagree or have knowledge that I don't have. Either way, exploit or bug, it should be fixable. Any ideas?
     
  2. Mr. Smither1

    Mr. Smither1 Seasoned Veteran
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    I think/hope the crashes are a side effect of chars running scripts/razor macros/uoa macros/ and not a deliberate attempt to crash everyone. I know every big Idoc I do, like nice 18x18s, keeps, castles that have lots people I will crash when it falls almost everytime.
     
  3. Elric_Soban

    Elric_Soban Babbling Loonie
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    in all likelyhood its just paranoia, but you never know. 90% of my crashes are in pvp situations, and oddly enough, around the same group of people.

    coincidence? Probably. But not definately. People will do anything for an edge, no matter how blatantly unfair.

    (p.s. welcome to the internet. theres cheaters. deal with it or log off.)
     
  4. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    I have noticed i often crash when killing someones pet or mount in pvp, im sure there are other contributing factors, but its Always as a pet dies, and Everyone on screen seems to crash as well. always in pvp

    might be when a pet dies, And a specific spell/graphic goes off, im not completely sure, but it does indeed have something to do with a pet dieing on screen

    I play in Classic Client if that makes a difference =D
     
  5. Valas

    Valas Guest

    I get major lag when fighting against some pvp'ers. Kinda game ruining really.
     
  6. Lord Raven

    Lord Raven Seasoned Veteran
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    Might seem silly to you... but one way to "deal with it" is to try and rectify the situation. One thing the internet if full of is folks that just don't care about anything... maybe those people should log off?

    In repsonse to the OP... it's been a long time since I had an incident where I suspected a player of causing repeated crashes. It was the Classic Client, and this player seemed to be able to cast spells several times faster than the other two folks I was hunting with. Every time he would start chaining these rapid-fire spells myself and my two friends would crash. Finally he left the area... and all was ok again.

    Can I prove it was him. No. Is it very suspicious... yes.

    My recommendation, if you PvP and continually experience crashes near certain groups of people during specific activities... send in a bug report every time. If they are cheating, then they may finally get banned and if it's glitch in the program, you will provide UO with important information on the specific events that trigger the crash.

    I thought one of the recent UOHerald articles mentioned something about enhanced bug-reporting... I hope they go through with that. The client should be able to realize it's crashing and allow you to send the error report while you are in the environment that caused the crash. Not sure how useful a report is after you log back on... unless some kind of capture file is stored by the client when it crashes.
     
  7. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    yet another reason to junk the CC and move onto the EC.

    everyone complaining about the exploits and scripting has to realize this is ONLY going to be fixed if the CC does not exist.

    i dont think there is one exploit or scripting program for the EC.
     
  8. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest


    ROFLMAO

    Those aren't rose colored glasses you're wearing son, they are Stevie Wonder collectables!
     
  9. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Yes there is at least one program available that can crash all other players in the area that are not using it or a similar program. It has been around at least 10 years.
     
  10. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    am i?
    if they get rid of the CC then scripting would be gone. no more complaints about people afk mining and such.

    those programs that auto heals and cures you, that makes it so you can chug pots with both hands equipped, the ones that makes you cast 2 or 3 spells at a time, wont work.

    all those programs that make you crash other players, those bugs that make you drop insured and bless items. the bugs that make you get into private houses.. all the duping bugs.. those wont work either..


    those are all tied in to the CC..
     
  11. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    There was a scripting program for the EC back before it was released for everyone to download.
     
  12. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    The only reason the aren't out there is because the CC still exists. Kill the CC and within a month there will be new cheats, scripts, etc for the EC. But... it would give Mythic a chance to take a hard line on Cheating and a fresh opening to combat it, basically clearing the slate and doing a re-boot on the whole issue.
     
  13. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    There are items out that used to cause you to crash when they got put on the ground in fel. There are also programs that will make your client lock up & sometimes crash. They exist...

    O yah just so ya know, a scripting program for the EC would be easy to make. People just don't feel like doing it. You close the CC and have a new program for the EC but as a side effect everyone says **** on UO and quits.
     
  14. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    The only way I know of to get into a private house is using the EC... You can still run the program that makes people crash with the EC... You can't chug pots with something in both hands - sorry thats just the way it is, there is no program for the CC that lets you cast 3 spells at a time (you just to dumb to figure out when your beat)... Noob
     
  15. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    not sure of the 'programs', but I know that Classic Client can be affected. Weird how it happens too - they come onscreen, then poof - crash. Hasn't happened to me in yrs tho.
     
  16. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    so here is the problem the way i see it. We have now 14 some posts from opinionated people, accusations fly, and the problem is spun into a CC vs EC debate.

    Beastmaster --> tell me whether you have used this program that you claim exists. If not, it remains hear-say. I am not accusing you of lying, but there are so many people like you that will have strong opinions that resemble fact out there... of course you can come back with a statement like "i can not post that" or you may feel cornered and will deny using a program like that in all colors. However, i am essentially calling your bluff. Show me your cards. nobody I know in game (a lot of people...) could tell me that they really knew or have seen, or have used a program capable of crashing another client. (even if they admitted using shaving equipment or things to make uo easy.)

    Others --> this is not a debate about the EC vs CC. I have my opinion on the matter, but that is not what this is about. THe question is: does a program exist that can do this, crash the client of other players in the area? If so, can that be fixed. If not, it may be a server side bug, that needs to be fixed.

    I have heared all the inuendo and accusations that are reflected in this thread:

    if you kill a faction horse you will crash

    if guild xyz appears, you will crash

    if player GHF appears, you know he has a speeder and you will crash


    This is not about the oh-so-easily obtained stupid scripting programs. Real pvp'rs recognize those in a second, and your enemy will chug their scripted pot while they die hard. There is something very nice about the predictablity of a computer program, it is like playing PvM...

    THis is not about that. It is about an issue that can not be circumvented --> a crash of a client. Apart from Beastmasters statement that a program exist and Vyal's statement that he knows of "items" that can crash you, i do not see anything more than the same [email protected] i have read in game or listened to in vent for the past decade and 1/2. This is a real issue, and needs to be addressed. I personally think that we are confusing matters and that if there is a crash bug, or a crash exploit, this should be fixed with high priority.
     
  17. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    The only problem I have had is at the queens castle in tel mur and when I go to this 1 vendors house in luna that has all garg vendors not sure if its the gargs or what but I also lag around the refugees out the city
     
  18. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Agree with you. I mean for people that around for a while they would know better what is hearsay and what is true.
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    How nice would it be if all those who "claim" to know and have used such programs clue the DEV team in on this? Let them know Exactly what's out there and being use.....


    Oh wait you can't do that..... because then you would be admitting that you violated the TOS as well as you would have to QUIT using it.

    Doesn't take rocket science to know that such things are out there. I do fine most of the time..... but when certain folk are around..... I can't even move and my client crashes... But then my internet can suck too.
     
  20. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    When it happened to me (several times), it was in the 2d client (what it was called then), there was no EC. And as far as I know it did not involve another program (as far as I know), unsure if it was ever fixed, perhaps not
     
  21. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    I can tell you I tested a program with a friend back before 3rd Dawn came out. This program or others like it can do this. To tell you any more would divulge too much to the griefers here. I quit playing shortly after 3rd Dawn came out and returned in 2003. I have no need for said program as I do not PvP.
     
  22. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Now when 3rd dawn 3D was out I could know the instant someone was running something. Lag spike city. Tested it out with a friend that used the heal mine autotarget and loot pumps. Tested with loads of OFF/ON relog and restarts. Soon as the program slapped a bandi or opened a corpse long lag spike. It was rare when I was on 3D that I could share a hunting area with a stranger.

    While on 2D before looting rights division, had to be real fast at snatching gold and jewels.
     
  23. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Crazed Zealot
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    Over the years at many house falls I have had where my client crashes when the looting of items starts. Have not had it for a bit till a house fall the other day on Atlantic. I havent crashed in years till this house fall. Reminded me of when the players were useing a hack.
    Perhaps they are still using newer hacks.....
     
  24. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    loot scripts can do that, crash anybody who can visibly see the container being looted. My theory on it is the UO client has a limited capacity to track items moving between containers, and too much moving too quickly can cause some sort of overflow.

    The actual programs that could crash people at will DID exist, but I doubt they still work today. (though you never know, there could be a current bug that still allows it)
     
  25. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    if they get rid of the CC then scripting would be gone. no more complaints about people afk mining and such.

    those programs that auto heals and cures you, that makes it so you can chug pots with both hands equipped, the ones that makes you cast 2 or 3 spells at a time, wont work.

    all those programs that make you crash other players, those bugs that make you drop insured and bless items. the bugs that make you get into private houses.. all the duping bugs.. those wont work either..


    those are all tied in to the CC..


    I say this as an EC user, modder, and proponent.

    The minute that the EC completely replaces the CC is about 2 minutes before all of the above issues start appearing with the EC as well. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking that the EC is going to be "hackproof"... any chance of that was removed in the early closed beta.
     
  26. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    If they get rid of CC a huge number of players will be gone...
     
  27. Lady Michelle

    Lady Michelle Sprite Full SP
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    I was bored, and kept knocking the guy with the purple robe off his mount( yes I have my moments to) the red shows up they talk and this image heres shows the results of said program.
    has you can see there was only 4 of us on the screen, as you can see the guy in front his character was duped. I also have had this happen at Idocs where and only when this one other person showed at one.


    [​IMG]
     
  28. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Yes, there is.

    Yes, temporarily until the hackers update the program. Cheat/Hack prevention is a constant arms race.


    Simple matter of the fact is, that EA won't fix it, even though they can. Why? Because EA doesn't give a **** about cheaters in UO, the very fact that cheaters/dupers/scripters have been able to run rampant in UO for so long is proof of it.
     
  29. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I think it would be a good way to deter cheating in UO, if using a not allowed third party would shut down the client. Though, I'd like to see a message gump saying it that because that client detected the use of a not allowed third party utility together with the UO client, the client would self shut down in X seconds......
     
  30. Vyal

    Vyal Guest

    The speeder programs lock people up 99% of the time with no crash. The scripting program will not crash a client and can't.
    The server will only send correct packets to the clients and will not accept any packets that don't add up. So if a client sends a wrong packet to the server first off it won't accept it and second it won't send the bad packet out. As far as cheat prevention goes, you can't just say hey there is a wrong packet coming in it must be a hacker. Thousands of packets get sent to the server every second and some get jumbled up.
    A program could be used CLIENT side to stop people using speeder programs and that is about the only way to do it. If anyone knows what Steam is, they have a good speeder stopper.
     
  31. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    I can guarantee i can produce a crash... but only when a faction horse dies at the same time i hit Ctrl-Shift =/ been that way for a long long time.
     
  32. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
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    I know you will crash if your dragging a health bar and that person or pet dies while still dragging, but as far as programs, I've only heard rumors from someone who knew someone in a guild on another that run the program.
     
  33. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    That sounds like the night someone said "my wife's sister's brother in law's friend's son knew a good hvac guy... like i was gunna follow that and track him down..
     
  34. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    I suppose one issue that is never talked about is that the two clients do not revolve around the exact same grid system. I have a feeling that if they did we would not see half the number of crashes we see today.
     
  35. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    I read very little of this post, but on friday I was fighting in bucs den which has the most server lines of anywhere I think. Anyways we were fighting for hours in bucs, it was fun but suddenly I crashed along with the person next to me. Then 6 more people said they crashed in vent. I crashed 5 times in a row literally as I logged in I crashed as well as several others. I think the best was 3 times in a row for someone. Naturally we were all dead when we logged back in. The guys we had been fighting all died also. This to me was a huge red flag, whether or not it is a player induced crash, this was pretty strange. I suppose you could say the server lines made us crash, but why after 2 hours or no crashing would we all crash mutliple times all over bucs den and be pk'd at the same time?

    Seems strange to me, it was a sh i tty way to end a great long fight but it was still a blast, I don't care where the fight is as long as it's not at yew so I would do it again, even if it means multiple crashes. But I find it very strange that everyone crashes and we all log in dead..after repeated crashing.

    I remember a similar thing happening on sonoma years ago at brit gate, again with server lines but we would crash at the gate in guard zone and then log in dead..in the guard zone. Seems very strange to me, and I know for a fact that several of the same players were in both spots at both times, even though it is seveal years apart..

    I don't know what happend but I figure someone got pretty pissed off at us and that makes me giggle. They couldn't handle us so they had to crash us out >.<

    I have no proof to back this up and I don't care what anyone says to have 8+ people crash multiple times at the same time and all get killed isn't normal and something was going on.
     
  36. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    heheh yeah this is a problem! fixing it well unless ea does a punkbuster type of prevention it won't happen! as for restricting background programs by closeing the client i doubt that would work it would cause ea such a headach when everyone who wants to turn on some music gets crashed because they did not make it distinguish between programs properly! I can see the subs falling off now if they did do something like that. In the end it comes down to this! UO has hacks scripts ext and they continue to run for one good reason! MONEY a conservative estimate would be 30-50% of the player base will script and 10-25% will use a hack the 30-50% of scripters get cought and banned well now ea just lost 30%+ of its cash flow. yeah they do temp ban you to scare you and will ban you if cought a few times but they don't police it much just the token policeing so they can say well we did ban xxx players for this or that so we do take it serious but in truth they don't give a damn!

    then theres the money makers who once worked on uo and know where the backdoors are i wont blame them afterall they just made sure they had some job security even if they lost their job they can still make a few g a month exploiting a game they worked on, a buddie who worked on a coupple games did this and made a good bit of money while the games were new and had people playing them sadly a successfull mmo is a rare breed!
     
  37. Thav12

    Thav12 Seasoned Veteran
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    Sofar, I can distill a few sentiments from the above posts:

    1) Crashes are occurring at suspicious moments (i.e. when certain players or groups enter the scene)

    2) Nobody knows of a specific program first hand, or at least not in recent years.

    3) Crashes may be associated with grid issues / misalignment

    4) Server lines may aggravate 3)

    5) Speeders may aggravate 3 & 4

    6) The EC is less susceptible, perhaps due to different handling of location packets.

    7) Although various people blame scripts, this is not related to scripts.

    8) Another source of crashes may be graphics / sequence related. (i can see how that may crash your own client, but not how it can induce crashes in another players' client.)

    I want the Devs to really look into this issue. Location data is of course critical for this game, but if the data flow from the server can cause a crash in the CC, this should be fixable. I doubt that it is as easily exploitable as it may seem, but I am sort of suspicious that speeders and other programs that influence the packet stream can upset the location update to other clients as well and may cause synchronizing trouble. Since one can not go faster than the server will allow, hence the perceived "speeder" speed of people using the EC in the eyes of the CC players, it should be possible to fix the loop hole that causes this synchronizing problem. There should be a lot of circumstantial evidence in this thread to help narrow down this problem. I completely agree with ICM420 that ultimately, if you have to resort to these kind of ploys to settle a battle you can't win, it just makes me laugh. We'll move on an fight another time.