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Weapon Specials no one uses leads to Weapons no one Uses!!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Roland Of Gilead, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Roland Of Gilead

    Roland Of Gilead Seasoned Veteran
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    As it says in title i believe there are too many useless weapon specials that no one would Ever wanna use.Therefore everyone uses the couple dif weapons of each skill type that has those specials everyone likes and ignores the others.How long has it been since u saw someone that wasnt new using a viking sword or some other slow 2 handed weapon with crappy specials?we need to find a way to make the weapons more usable to increase the diversity out there in the field.Wouldnt it be wonderful to see 20 people at an event or hunt all with dif weapons in hand?Perhaps some sort of swap out option for weapon specials or something cool that could maybe be balanced out in some way so as not to get too over powered weaps.True u would see alot o the same weapon specials being used but you do now and at least visually u would see dif weapons in people hands and see people getting some use out of some cool looking weapons that no one uses now due to crappy unusable specials.
     
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  2. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    ...or perhaps remove some of the weapons and make others usable by multiple skills. Then you can perhaps add a third weapon skill to each weapon.

    Maybe add a sabre for fencing that can whirlwind.
     
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  3. silent

    silent Lore Master
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    You could have great specials but slow swing speed, so I'd say speed is a huge consideration to what is usable for sure...
     
  4. Swordsman

    Swordsman Adventurer

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    It would be fun to re-design the function of weapons, speed, special moves, damages, make them some sort of new toys.
     
  5. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    My fav weapon is the Short Spear, fast, good damage, and just looks cool, but like the man said, whatcha gonna do, Shadow Strike him to death?
    That right there, made me decide there was something screwed up here..
    If the new GM=120 was Not True, I think you'd learn a few specials on your way to 100.0, learning many more from 100-120. That's why you train, is to get better?
     
  6. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    You realise that very few people used viking swords or long swords before they had specials? Almost all swordsmen pre AOS used a katana or broadsword if they used one handed weapons.
     
  7. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Same goes for alot of things. would it be cool to see people swinging war hammers or halbards in use again? unless theres a redesign though it won't happen. There are some specials that are a necessity, and people just go for the one that is the fastest with some consideration to damage.
     
  8. Shadefox

    Shadefox Certifiable
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    They should have a choice based special limited to skill level, where more choices become selectable with increments with every title increment. Anything to make more types of weapons usable.

    Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2
     
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  9. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    actually viking sword WAS very popular as a mid-speed weapon for pure warriors, at least in pvp. It has always had some of the best damage/speed ratio in the game and vanq ones were DEADLY (slower than the katana but roughly the same DPS, a magical one could do quite the damage in a single hit). They were a little slow but if you knew what you were doing you could tear people apart with them.

    I can't really comment on the ren thorugh AOS period though so maybe it changed a bit in there, but a viking sword was definitely a common weapon to see in combat, though yes, the katana and hally were more common because when the hally struck you could switch to the katana and get in a hit much faster
     
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  10. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    part of the issue is also the specials themselves and the weapons they're on, the kryss is a great example...why use a big slow fencing weapon when a weapon with NO swing increase caps in both speed AND damage with AI. Post AOS, in pvp at least, most "real" weapon damage is from specials, not normal hits, normal hits are "filler" between the "real" hits, so due to the way the weapon system works and the pvp damage caps you pick the fastest weapon with good specials, the actual damage rating on it almost doesnt matter at all. (sure....a hally does great damage..and if you're ever surrounded by 8 people within 1 tile and live long enough to even attempt it it's special might even save you....but it's swing is so slow that even with 190 stam and 30 ssi it's swing is still slow enough that you can heal between hits...and to add more insult to that the kryss's AI special does just as much damage or more :/ )
     
  11. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    I don't think I've ever had that thought. I mean, there are certainly weapons out there that are seldom used, but each weapon class has several viable weapons depending on PvM/PvP preference. I'm sure you could assume one weapon type per class but it isn't like a tamer with a Greater Dragon or a mage with the same slayer spellbook. I'd assume most sampires run swords but some run fencing and I'm sure at least one of them runs a diamond macer ;). I'm not really familiar with gargoyle weapons, though.

    There are a few special attacks which seem kind of useless, like Psychic Attack, Force of Nature, Dual Wield, Defense Mastery, and Block. I don't know if I ever really use those abilities. Then there are a few abilities like dismount, moving shot, shadow strike, nerve strike, paralyzing blow which are used primarily for PvP, except not para blow as much now. We have had the opportunity to use dismount in PvM situations, but there isn't a consistent reason. You seldom need to run after a PvM target with moving shot but I suppose you could kite with moving shot. Generally if you have to stop the movement of a mob with some sort of stun you're doing it wrong, because the mana usage is too great and it's easier to whirlwind or armor ignore to bring a certain enemy down faster. Also, anything you'd want to stun or worth stunning will likely parry, lol. That's part of what can make a weapon/special move worthless, really, the RNG of your chance to hit as well as the RNG of the mob to parry.

    Stylistically I went for the viking sword before I even knew what DPS meant. It was my favorite looking sword after browsing my T2A guide.

    I never really played much hybrid mage back then but a friend of mine would always hally it up. I grew more accustomed to a katana for the speed but for the sake of PvP the katana wasn't as great because the damage was diminished by armor. I'd say broadswords were probably the best middle ground between speed and power, but much like today it depended on what kind of magic mods the sword had.
     
  12. i remember when double axes reigned supreme early on in UO (they had the highest strength requirement, and were probably the fastest twohanded weapon), and also in the onset of AOS (due to the doublestrike bug).
     
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  13. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    yep. I was really pushing for something to be changed in regards to weapons and metal armor at one point, so everyone could look how they wanted too. Then they introduced throwing, where it had 2 weaps and effectivly 5 specials and insane speed to damage ratio. That made me realize the direction it was going lol.
     
  14. Zero Day

    Zero Day Guest

    I like Dual Wield, for one of my templates it allows me to put out damage on parallel with much heavier weapons. I dont use defensive mastery in PvP much but since it goes above resist cap, when I'm fighting hard hitting mobs, it works similar to feint but without the single target limitation.

    I occasionally use block but thats in PvP if I know I am about to get hit with a major damage combo like xp fs or a plague stream.

    Though it is mostly useful for an arrow psychic arrow is also on the SAI where I use it, and while its not spectacular, it does stack, and if you are in a fight its a good way to cause your opponent to drain a whole bunch of mana quickly.


    Never have used Force of Nature, just no real point to it. For the other specials, I definitely found added utility as part of the last special update last year. While I wouldnt say they aren't the must haves, throwing them into the mix does make for some fun surprises.
     
  15. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    This is what I was saying ages ago..... It's sad that you don't see much variety... And True people are going to use the fastest weapon with the BEST specials.

    What would be better would be if we could work-up some sort of "proficiency" with weapons. An archer would work up proficiencies with say the crossbow... opening up new "special" moves with it as he got more proficient at it. So at say GM crossbow..... he'd gain armor ignore..... or something.....

    So say they add "proficiencies" to things... Mages even. Mages could work up things like elemental proficiency.... gaining increased spell damage percents in spells that they use making them do more say energy damage... Give people 2 proficiencies to add to their template. This would even include crafters.... And here would be where the "fun" could begin. A Blacksmith might chose to become "proficient" in say bladed weapons. Much like the system of "Reforging" this smith would be able to craft incredibly sharp, fast accurate weapons that are bladed. As well he might be very proficient at crafting chainmail..... giving the chainmail exceptional strength... resistance to damage. These crafted bonus's would not add too much to the "weight" of an item.... so when they are imbued you could add better mods... OR eliminate the need for PoF because these items would also have 255 durability.

    Then give us craftable "proficiency" stones. To save our proficiencies.... if we want to swap them out. Because of course you would limit folk to only being proficient in 2 things at a time. Much like specials.

    So you could use weapons that had other special moves on them.... but not being overly proficient in them they wouldn't work as often or as well in the moves you are proficient in.


    Just an Idea.
     
  16. Doubleplay

    Doubleplay Lore Keeper
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    I would use the slower weapons if the Hit Chance was increased, the slower the weapon is. With a slow weapon, you cannot afford to miss. Effectively you have no offense if you miss two times in a row. Additionally, your opponents Defense Chance should be adjusted to be less effective when defending against slower weapons.
     
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  17. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
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    I fondly recall the moment I clued in to DPS on a katana or warfork vs every other similar weapon. Good times.
     
  18. Gary Rendol

    Gary Rendol Guest

    You know, if some specialsare tweaked on the slower weps, i dont see any problem with a temporary HCI buff as long as your swinging at say, 1.75-2.00 + secs per swing. Any faster and the buff can maybe be gone? Would only work with weps over a swing speed of 3.25? thoughts?
     
  19. Gary Rendol

    Gary Rendol Guest

    i meant to say over 3.25 base Swing speed.
     
  20. Roland Of Gilead

    Roland Of Gilead Seasoned Veteran
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    I just think it would be more fun for all having the option of using more weapons the diversity is nice but mainly its all about the fun right?It is a game we just wanna have some fun with it!:)As it is its not very fun to use most the weapons due to useless specials that make u feel like your hampering yourself. So if u wanna do as well as u can theres only a few weapon choices that works well per weapon skill which is kinda lame.
     
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  21. Aerodice

    Aerodice Adventurer
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    I completely agree. I was thrilled when the dev team changed some of the less used specials in publish 71. Most of them have a greater effect in PVP than PVM but it was good to know that they were addressed and made useful. It would be great if they could periodically improve some of the lesser used specials (such as force of nature).

    One thing I think they should fix are weapons with the same abilities in the same weapon class. Add a bit more variety by switching one of the specials. Why have two that are nearly identical? Sure, there may be minor changes such as slightly more base damage or crafting material bonuses but it leaves less variety in the specials. Classic examples are:

    Sledge Hammer and Smith's Hammer: Both have crushing blow and shadowstrike
    Tessen and Nunchaku: Both have feint and block, they are in reversed order but that doesn't matter much
    Mauls and Diamond mace: Both have crushing blow and concussion blow, in reversed order again
    Assassin spike and dagger: Both have infectious strike and shadowstrike. Assassin spike should have kept the Bladeweave, Shadowstrike specials to make it unique (Source: Ultima Online - Mondain's Legacy)

    I like the idea on better hit chance on heavier weapons. There should be a tradeoff really:

    Faster, light Weapons (2s - 2.75s): Faster hits per second, better for disrupting and landing attacks and specials quickly. Less damage and chance to hit (possibly less effective specials). Less amount of leeching.
    Mid speed, medium weapons (3s - 3.75s): A balance between the two.
    Slower, heavy Weapons (4s - 5s): Slower hits per second, best for landing powerful blows and damaging specials. More damage and chance to hit (possibly more effective specials). Larger amount of leeching.

    Same idea goes for two handed weapons. There should be a tradeoff between 1-handed and 2-handed weps:

    1-Handed: Able to use potions quickly. Can use a shield or secondary item (torch) to gain extra properties and bonuses. Less parrying chance with bushido.
    2-Handed: Takes a few seconds to use a potion (can be interrupted by attacks). Cannot use a shield or secondary item for bonuses, but can have more bonuses (More imbuing weight IE: FC2 on a weapon). Greater parrying chance with bushido

    These are just ideas and most likely have a few flaws attached (everything does). The point is to give a reason for using a wider variety of weapons instead of restricting to a few select weapons.
     
  22. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I think both specials and DPS should be looked at, especially when considering for str reqs and 2 handed vs 1 handed. Some weapons are just CLEARLY top tier (radiant scimitar, leaf blade) that are standards everyone uses, and some weapons are clearly bottom tier (War hammer, War mace, Hally...) that hardly ever get used because they are just all around terrible.

    Armor too. Armor and weapons both need a serious looking at.
     
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  23. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    it's hard to make use of a slow weapon even with 30 or more SSI, but now that we can have SSI so easily on jewels and the shield slot (which doesn't help most of the slow weps but eh) as well as cloak, that helps make the slow weapons more affordable to use. not too bad to have a 50-60% SSI war hammer or hally for the whirlwinds. but yeah, the radiant scimitar messed up the whole 2h-only whirlwind meta, haha.
     
  24. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    the problem with that is many of the popular faster weapons hit just as hard and cap at 1.25 swing speed with only 10-20ssi, leaving a lot more room for other imbues in your suit.
     
  25. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    if you could swing a COW Lance, that had EVERY avail special, Many still wouldn't use it. Most fights, you whiff 4-5 times in a row with that, you're dead.
     
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  26. Hell's Ironworks

    Hell's Ironworks Seasoned Veteran
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    Give my warrior a 40% SSI war hammer with good mods, and ill use it everyday. Problem is availability. I still do burn a runic on Odd or less popular models once in a while. Halberds , vikings, pikes ,hammer picks , metal armor and such. But they just dont sell.ANd if they dont sell, There's no gold to buy more runics...High end runics are still expensive for my poor ass lol.

    Oh , and a warrior with enough skill and STR should be able to use the ¨balanced¨ mod on any 2 handed weapon IMO.

    ANd why dont we add ephemeral high end runics to the covetous reward menus?
     
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  27. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    The increased availability of ssi did help, but still like when you have black staffs war hammers are just pointless. I have always been an advocate of item type intensity caps. I think that would be an easyish bandaid fix (maybe?) for a lot of these issues.
     
  28. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    I agree completely. BUT... Who do we want rebalancing the weapons and their specials? Do we want the Dev Team, who have an abysmal track record "balancing" things, to do this behind closed doors or do we want to pitch a fit until they create a focus group so they get sufficient player input?

    Personally, I think we need focus groups for changes like this. The neutering of factions might not have happened if they bothered to actually talk to people active in factions. (And no, just listening to people whine on Stratics isn't enough.)
     
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  29. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    From what ive seen "focus groups" accomplish very little.
     
  30. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    They have in the distant past. The last one, held during Cal's obnoxious will he/won't he classic shard nonsense, however, was pretty much a complete fail. Not enough players and next to no Dev input after a little while.

    The Devs have proven they just don't get combat in UO, whether it's PvP or PvM.
     
  31. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I feel that most weapons should have a natural tendency to automatically trigger a special attack. For example-How is every hit from a heavy,two-handed war hammer *not* a crushing blow? I think it would be. Also any sharp blade worth wielding should make it's target bleed. Remember when we could add poison to any bladed weapon? We should get to again.
     
  32. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    It makes sense from a logical standpoint, but I think gameplay wise its better the way it is. I prefer strategy over luck when I can get it.
     
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  33. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Here's another thought: What if we could decide somehow what specials a weapon had? Maybe as a magic property you could add a special? Would that promote MORE variety in weapons used, or LESS?

    I imagine many would seek out the weapon with the best dps at a middling stamina/ssi level, then apply AI/Feint/whirlwind accordingly. But on the other hand I am sure there are many people who would rather use weapons they favor if they could get some extra functionality. If you mix that in with the idea of higher imbuing limits for two handed/heavy weapons then I could easily see some of them see a good deal of play.

    Like a Halberd with Feint, or a War Hammer with AI both with full stats? Could be fun.

    I don't know if its a good idea or not honestly.
     
  34. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    you'd see nothing but daggers with AI and bleed or disarm

    I wasn't around when they were introduced (I played before and after) but you're basicly describing the origional weapon special system pre-aos, when they introduced them they were automatic and two handed weapons had a higher chance of using one.

    And yes, I MISS poisoning being a just a crafting skill, and being able to hop by yew gate vendors and pick up a DP'd katana to use. They messed up poisoning pretty bad with ML when they suddenly decided the poison on the weapon didn't matter, that you needed to use a weapon special with the poisoning skill on for it to work....even with the boosts to it now it's still pretty useless as 80 points is a LOT to spend on your character just to be able to poison people with a weapon that's already poisoned!
     
  35. Sevin0oo0

    Sevin0oo0 Guest

    You have a dagger, I have a 15 foot lance - ooh, I'm scared, and drop my weapon as you disarm me? Makes as much sense as disarming someone with a Frisbee. Heavy mace can give bleed - have someone hit you in the chest w/ a sledge hammer, (internal bleeding). Most, used correctly could cause bleed.
    (Thinking of internal damage... could change requirement for lesser/greater heals to correspond to that). But I think of specials as a learned attribute mostly..
    Armor should determine what effects work, or are ignored
     
  36. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    What if the standard specials would stay on the weapons,and we were able to choose a 3rd special at our respective 120 weapon skill? It would have to be real skill instead of jeweled up.
     
  37. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Like a bard specialization or something. Its an idea.
     
  38. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Oh I dunno, I think it would probably be katana or something honestly. Dagger damage is very poor. Then again, I used to use a dagger, it would be nice to use again.
     
  39. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    damage output on the dagger doesn't matter when you can do capped damage AI's at 1.25s having no SSI and relatively low dex (leaving a ton of room for mana and hp). With the right specials and speed the actual damage of the weapon is pretty much irrelivant.
     
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  40. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well, I mean if that was the case then why does no one ever use the Kryss? It swings at max at 90 stamina, has AI so you could easily run 50 dex. Shortblade too, do garg players use that? I honestly don't know. Theres a few others that are pretty close as well, like Katanas. Do people use leafblades anymore? I haven't really been keeping up. :(
     
  41. Raptor85

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    kryss is one of the most heavily used weapons in the game, at least as far as melee weapons go. Don't see many people doing melee anymore on most shards though, most people use myst these days for bombard combos so most dexxers use archery.
     
  42. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    I see. I honestly don't know. I haven't been playing regularly for ages.
     
  43. Raptor85

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    that or you only pvm, the kryss's specials are better for pvp, it's been a "favored" weapon all the way back to t2a but after AOS the fast AI's made it super popular, generally swap between that and a warfork on a fencer.
     
  44. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Yeah last pvping I remember people were all using bokuto heh.
     
  45. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    This is what happens when nerfage is consistently applied to the most popular weapon/specials every other publish for eight or nine years.

    I always thought that having a maximum number of weapons inside your skill set you could learn, and then a number of moves you could learn for each of the weapons would be useful. I would include shields in considering special moves and I would add a stamina cost and not allow specials to be used unless the char had more than 50 percent stam. In a day of leeches that actually would not be much of a concern but would also reduce the occurrence of total bounce back for dexxers. *shrugs* The days that would have been important are likely behind us.
     
  46. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    They should restore the old weapon specials [pre-AoS].

    two-handed-Swords - 25% anatomy = concussion blow on hit
    two-handed-Macing - 25% anatomy = Crushing blow on hit
    two-handed-Fencing - 25% anatomy = paralyze on hit

    ...of course some weapons would still need to be redone as for which specials, you don't want a war hammer that could proc a crushing blow while one has crushing blow toggled to use on the next hit at the same time... could be quite OP in pvp.

    Also UBWS weapons should have a reduced chance [-10%] to proc a special if you have a weapon skill different from the required weapon type.

    I also think that melee weapons should have an SSI cap separate from ranged [with melee being faster]

    Armor Ignore in pvp 2handed melee weapons should have a hard cap at around 40-50 damage IMO since one would be sacrificing the ability to use potions.
    2-handed weapons [melee only] shouldn't be disarm-able by other players ether imo.

    It would definitely make two-handers competitive weapons again to have something like this in-place [pvm & pvp]

    A pure dexer would be a viable template once again as well...

    One handed weapons aren't so bad atm now that shields have some pretty useful property combinations.