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[Blacksmithing] What color ingots to use when making weps?

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by sirion, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. sirion

    sirion Seasoned Veteran
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    Been wondering and wanted to ask for opinions, but if you're just making a weapon for general use, what color ingot do you choose?

    I mostly use normal ingots for 100% Physical damage. Sometimes valorite. If you use Consecrate Weapon, will there be differences in output damage? Of course, it depends on what mobs you fight...But in general, what color ingot is most "safe" to use?
     
  2. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    it depends on mob like you said but i use valorite also if you consecrate then it dont matter because it goes toward the worst resist
     
  3. Percivalgoh

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    Depends. I almost always make them out of plain iron. If you are going for the total imbue weapon then you might first think about what monsters you are going to fight then choose based on their weakest resist. Mostly how I make weapons is I make hundreds of them with lower end runics and keep the ones that have high damage increase, high swing speed increase depending on the weapon, high hit chance increase or other properties that are costly to imbue that I want. I start with them as base for my imbue then I might enhance but these days if I really wanted the weapon I would probably use a forge tool so it doesn't go poof. I find that for the most part there is no need to enhance a weapon however it might be good against certain monsters with high physical resist. However does anyone know if you use something like valorite that spreads out the damage does it help or hinder. Does a monsters resist block a certain number of points or a percentage of the points? If it blocks a certain number of points spreading out the resists is bad.
     
  4. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Spreading out the resists with Valorite is about the biggest hindrance you can put on a weapon, as it about guarantees you'll be putting some of the damage versus the worst resist. It sounds great in conversation, but it REALLY sucks once you actually do the math.

    Typically, the following is true -

    PvM
    A. Crafting with iron if you intend to imbue.
    B. Enhancing with gold if you are imbuing luck onto a weapon.
    C. Enhancing with ingots that give additional durability, if you want to go cheap on the imbue (not enough POF), or wore an imbued iron weapon down to half max and want to get it back into the 250s.
    D. CRAFTING with Gold if making a weapon with a runic high enough that it will not be imbuable (Verite and Valorite runics; add Gold and Agapite ingots if making a weapon that gives additional properties from the recipe).
    E. Only for VERY specific-role weapons is going for enhancement for elemental damage really worth it; Consecrate Weapon is too easily gotten for much effort to be made, and in some cases (AWs, etc.) you're better off chaining armor ignores than trying to hack through the resists with real or magical (Consecrate) 100% in its weakest resist.

    PvP
    A. You don't need special resists, most full-time PvPers run suits that when hit with debuffs still have the same value in all resists. So Iron, or one of the metals that give Lower Requirements (enhanced, after Imbue), if it's something that theoretically could drop out of your hand if hit by a really powerful Curse (especially if you're going to be raiding, or raided - champ bosses, greater dragons, etc. don't play favorites, and can have over 120 Eval).
     
  5. There are quite a few times when I am mana vamped, or otherwise out of mana and can't use CW - or with the recent changes to the spell, that it doesn't go off and I hit for lower damage. If you have high chivalry, this is less of an issue.

    For general use and greater average damage, I use either Bronze (40% Fire damage) or Valorite (10% Fire, 20% Cold, 10% Poison, 20% Energy). If the CW spell takes affect on a hit, the elemental damage makes no difference. But if the CW doesn't hit, then you get a small bonus.

    Then only downside that I see to enhancing with either Bronze or Valorite is the chance to destroy the weapon.
     
  6. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    It depends.

    If you are making weapons with a DC hammer, then I would say iron. Mainly because if you are lucky enough to roll elemental damage, then if you are using a colored metal, then you are screwed.

    When you make with a colored metal, you limit yourself and the weapon. Mainly because you can enhance the weapon afterwards to get a more pure elemental damage.

    If you know what you are making the weapon for. Example if you are wanting to make a weapon for doing the Rat Champ spawn and didn't want to sit around trying to make an elemental damage one with a runic hammer, you'd probably want to make the weapon out of Bronze.

    Making a weapon out of Valorite is one of the worst things you can do. With all the resist like that, most creatures are low in one or 2 and higher in the rest. In all honesty, you are probably hurting yourself more than anything.
     
  7. That is only true if you are making a weapon for a specific monster with known resists, then you target the weakest resist - e.g. 100% fire weapon for miasma.

    But, if you are making a general weapon (not a slayer) then it actually helps a little. Do the math or use the Stratics calculators to see what I mean.

    However, the metal I use most often to enhance weapons is actually Dull Copper to get the 100 Durability.
     
  8. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    I'm intrigued how would one go about making such a weapon? If it relies on Imbuing whats the closest without imbuing?
     
  9. Ah... you mean the 100% Fire damage for miasma? That was one of my favorite weapons, and still have a 100% Fire xBow Scorpion slayer I found. No need for Consecrate Weapon on that, but it was a looted weapon that I imbued.

    I keep all weapons found in loot with 100% elemental resists, and then enhance to add ML, SL plus whatever I have room for. You can also use Bronze to add 40% Fire damage, so a weapon with 40/60 Physical/Fire can be enhanced to 100% fire.

    If I am making one from scratch, I use a DC or Shadow hammer and hope to get a 60+ Fire elemental weapon, Imbue with properties, and enhance with Bronze.
     
  10. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I've done the math and I really don't agree with you. It's almost like having a 20/20/20/20/20 and that isn't good either. I have several spread sheets that I made up once I got interested in elemental weapons years ago. It just doesn't add up.
     
  11. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    You cannot imbue elemental damage. It is crafted, enhanced onto a weapon or found as loot.

    When crafting it, it's best to take a runic tool with a low number of properties (lower the better) and to make weapons out of the base material (iron or wood in this case). You are looking for weapons that have elemental damage and hopefully a good property with it. Then you want to consult a chart, I use this one: UO Guide Metal

    A good example is Agapite. Let's say you find a weapon that is 30% Physical 70% cold. If you enhance it with Agapite, that will become a 100% cold damage weapon. If the weapon was 50% Physical and 50% Cold, then it would become 80% Cold and 20% Energy. Or if the weapon was 20% Physical 20% Fire and 60% Cold, it would become 20% Fire and 80% Cold.
     
  12. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    Thanks NuSair. So Bronze would be the enhance material to go for to get 40% fire. What do the enhancing chance %'s look like these days?
     
  13. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    Not good, even with a Gargoyle using a +60 ASH.

    Which is why I save it for the truly special weapons and just buy one of those Forged Metals off a vendor (although, I did buy 3 the other day for 13mil each).
     
  14. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    I have done the math - I was a math teaching major before health made me drop out of college as a Senior. (so, I'd had and passed with As & Bs all the math and statistics courses up to Calculus IV). You're reading too much into those numbers.

    The Stratics Calculator (And all the calculators like it) are based on the assumptions

    1. That CW is not used
    2. The weapon has no elemental properties other than imparted by the metal.

    which one or both typically aren't true.

    When you start running into the creatures that have high resists overall (which happens to be, most of the time, when you start crafting weapons for specific tasks), the benefits of a weapon getting only the metal type virtually evaporate.

    The only creatures that you potentially benefit with a Valorite weapon against are ones that have Physical as their highest resist (which I'll admit is the most common), and even then you're tossing 40% of the resist still against their best resist. In many cases, you'd be better off with Verite (which only leaves 30% in Physical Damage).

    Consecrate weapon is 100% Damage versus the worst resist.
    Armor Ignore is 90% damage versus ZERO resist.

    If a creature's resists are all high, all valorite will do is give you 0-5 more points of damage (typically, the quicker the weapon, the lower the benefit), that typically are insignificant when fighting anything that takes ten or less hits to kill.
    An extra 5 points an attack is significant in PvP; in PvM, you'll have to do 10-20 attacks with a valorite weapon to where the damage is statistically different (from using a normal weapon (and might be less, based on the creature's resists, instead of more) - and if you're fighting it that long, you've probably lost track of number of hits already. Consider that if something has 540 HP, 6 hits at 100 is no different than 6 hits at 95 (and in a real game situation, that 100 would more likely be 98 or 97). The chance of just lucking into mobs where that tiny bit of damage will make more than 1 attack difference (with that much variability already present in the hit chance rolls), is fairly slim - especially since most fights are so short. If fights are longer, then you're usually back to fighting specific monsters again, and you exempted them from the discussion yourself.

    In fact, it's only when elemental damage is used WITH a slayer, that the amount from a 3, 4 or 5 type spread can become significant, and only if they are weighted toward the weak resists (not without a slayer, as you seem to think). The damage changes from elemental damage are applied to the base damage, and the slayer is a DI bonus - elemental damage is a multiplier, and goes thanks to the properties of multiplication have the same effect if done before or after DI is added. That you think that it helps more with non-slayers actually goes to show how much having damage spread out into the best resists as well as the poor ones NERFS the benefit of using a slayer.


    BTW...

    In my testing, against creatures with all resists over 40%, I do more damage with a single Armor ignore, than with 100% damage versus their worst resist for the duration of CW (or using a 100% weapon), for only slightly higher mana cost. Have high hit mana leech on the weapon, and only trigger AI every other attack, and you can keep the ball rolling indefinitely.

    There was an event on Lake Austin back around 2003 or 2004, where we had to fight some awful baddy down near the Exodus stronghold in Ilshenar (luckily, the EM spawned it far enough away from the regular spawn for it not to be an issue, and it was before paragons).

    After a half-hour, we hadn't even managed to start the health bar moving past a tiny sliver of red; most of the time the thing was healed back to full. Finally, it dawned on us that when it did show some damage, it was after someone had hit with an AI. It took some doing (and some people running for backup weapons), but once everyone got on the same page and started spamming AIs, we dropped it in 5 minutes, from full health, when 20+ tamers (and their dragons of WW/mare combos) and a like number of warriors (most using EoO and Consecrate, or valorite weapons) hadn't scratched it for 30 minutes.
     
  15. I think you have that backwards. The BEST combination you can have against a group of unknown resists is 20/20/20/20/20. Funny, but we had a similar conversation about two years ago, talking about damage to Irk (which has the same resist range across all elemental types).

    Let me use an extreme example to make it easier to understand. Suppose you are fighting mobs with 4 very high resists, and one low resist, but each mob will have a random resist as the low one... some with 50/100/100/100/100... some with 100/50/100/100/100, and so on. If you hit the high resists, you do no damage, but do considerable damage when you hit the low resist.

    My sampire has 60 Chivalry, so I hit the low resist 60% of the time when I use Consecrate Weapon. In this case if my weapons resist (say 100% Physical) doesn't match the lowest resist, then I will do no damage 40% of the time when I hit. With me so far?

    Now, if I had a 20/20/20/20/20 weapon, when I hit without CW effects, I still do some damage because of the 20% elemental damage. And this will work for the entire group of mobs no matter which is the low resist. So you will always do some damage on each hit, rather than damage on just 60% of the hits.

    If you have high chivalry it makes less of a difference. And of course, if you know the group's lowest resist it would be best to target that.
     
  16. A math snob, huh? What are you trying to prove by throwing out your low level credentials? LOL

    I think you misunderstand what I am saying, and this has nothing to do with Armor Ignore. Armor Ignore just ignores the elemental resists altogether - so it doesn't matter which metal the weapon is made from.

    My original point is still valid, there are times when you won't have mana to use either Consecrate Weapon nor Armor Ignore... then what? If you don't know the resists of whatever you will be fighting, you will still be better off with some elemental damage if each type. And it does not hurt to have several elemental damages on a weapon.

    We are probably going to disagree on this one, but don't throw your education in my face - that was rather rude.
     
  17. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    As you can see most of us have different answers and this is for many reasons one of those is different play styles and templates ! hopefully this will give you some ideas that fit close to how you play and what or who you fight!
     
  18. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    No, not a math snob - just someone who doesn't appreciate when someone tries to use that something is "black" to insist that it's "White".

    Your original point is still based off a mis-interpretation of how the numbers actually work. And, you're proving it by attacking my education (not my evidence), rather than providing any proof that your view has merit. I didn't totally disagree with you - what I took issue with was the reiteration of that bizarre notion from 9 years ago that "valorite is the ultimate metal for weapons" - especially as anything more than an emergency substitute for other means.

    "Having damages in all types to hit the lowest resists" = "Having damage in all types and hitting its highest resists"; 5=5.

    And, that most creatures have physical as one of their two highest resists, and Valorite STILL has TWICE the physical damage as the next highest damage type.
    Verite: 30% Physical compared to 40% the next highest (and 30% in another). That's a 3/4 ratio of physical to the best non-physical
    Agapite: 40% Physical to 40% best non-physical (and 20% to another). that's a 1/1 ratio
    Bronze: 60% Physical, 40% Fire. That's a 3/2 ratio.

    Valorite: 40% physical, 20% to two different resists, 10% to the last 2. That's a 2/1 ratio to either of the two best non-physical resists, and means that you're still putting more into physical damage than any given non-physical resist, than any of the other choices above. and, no matter what you're fighting, you're ALWAYS putting 20-60% of the damage against the creature's two highest resists; more often than not, 50-60% (few creatures have Physical lower than #2 out of 5 in resists sorted by highest first). Only Shadow Iron and Copper have worse ratios.

    Having some elemental damage CAN be good - but it is equally likely to be bad, in YOUR OWN STATED CASE of "not knowing the resists" of the target. After all, if in some odd event you ran into poison elementals and golems (wild, not crafted) in the same room, what good would a 50% fire / 50% poison weapon do you? (clue: wild golems can be hurt SOME with poison weapons, but have 100% fire resist, unlike the built ones that are 100% poison resist. Of course, the PEs are 100% poison resist, so you're in trouble there as well).

    An experienced player doesn't run around with 1 weapon, and definitely not multiple weapons with the EXACT SAME DAMAGE SPREAD if they are trying to make do without means like Consecrate or AI to bypass resists their primary would be weak against. I'd no sooner fight an Ancient Wyrm with my 100% physical radiant scimitar (despite its leeches), than I would try using a longsword against level 1 champ spawn swarms.

    The point I was making went right over your head.
     
  19. No it wasn't over my head. Take a look at the example I sent you in PM if you want to see the math for it.

    I do not think Valorite is the ultimate metal for weapons - I still prefer Dull Copper to reduce the number of repairs. What I am saying is that for a general purpose weapon, it would do more damage (although in many case it's not a lot) than a 100% physical weapon, and that a 20/20/20/20/20 weapon is even better if you can make one - For a general purpose weapon.

    The best is to get a 100% elemental damage weapon of the lowest mob resist.
     
  20. Kayne

    Kayne Guest

    NuSair - what is ASH?

    So forged metals is really the way to go if you want an enhance to be successful and not destroy the item then.

    Thanks
     
  21. ASH = Ancient Smith Hammer

    Forged metals is good for a valuable weapon or armor - the more properties in an enhancement, the greater the risk it fails. With Bronze on a weapon it adds one property, while Valorite adds four. There is one check for success/fail on Bronze, while Valorite has four.
     
  22. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    And I've repeatedly done the math for you to show that Valorite is the worst possible choice. Valorite is almost always 50%-60% against the HIGHEST two resists, unless you run into very rare monsters where Physical isn't one of the two highest.
     
  23. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    There is a difference between "general purpose weapon" for an abstract game with unknown resist distribution and "general purpose weapon" for UO.

    For example, if it's known that physical resist is usually high so 0/25/25/25/25 is better than 20/20/20/20/20.

    If someone give me a "monsters data table" I'd be able to calculate optimal distribution. Due to my very little experience it seems it will be something like 0/20/20/40/20 but I can be wrong here.
     
  24. I have that in an Excel spreadsheet, known resists of 350 monsters combined, and broken into various slayer types. It wouldn't be too hard to break into Dungeons or Champ spawns.

    Here is what I have so far (Wish I knew how to display here in a table). Higher end Mobs are distributed pretty well compared to groups, but all have exceptions. If I were to target a specific Champ Boss, Doom or Renowned Boss, then of course I would tailor the weapon to that boss - as you pointed out, that's not the argument here.

    ALL Groups: Phy/Fire/Cold/Pois/Energy
    Average - 47.6/38.3/39.0/43.4/37.2
    Median - 47.7/37.7/38.8/40.4/33.9

    Undead (35):
    Average - 46.2/29.7/52.3/41.2/35.1
    Median - 50/25/55/44/35

    Elemental (28):
    Average - 51.9/40.0/34.3/45.8/41.1
    Median - 50/25/55/44/35

    Repond (62):
    Average - 39.6/28.9/32.0/26.5/25.4
    Median - 42/31.5/31.5/20/21

    Demon (44):
    Average - 50.6/49.7/38.6/53.5/43.6
    Median - 50/55/36.5/55/40.5

    Fey (24):
    Average - 61.1/38.4/48.9/49.6/53.3
    Median - 59/40/45/45/45

    Arachnid (22):
    Average - 41.9/31.1/35.8/71.9/37.2
    Median - 45/35/35.5/75.5/36.5

    Reptile (58):
    Average - 48.5/40.9/37.5/46.3/36.5
    Median - 45/35/37.5/38/35

    Wolf (11):
    Average - 34.3/32.6/27.2/22.5/27.2
    Median - 30/35/23/15/15

    Other (41):
    Average - 52.2/47.7/43.2/40.7/41.7
    Median - 50/45/45/40/40
     
  25. I have yet to see any math from you, just general statements. If you have done the math in another thread, please provide a link so I can see what you are referring to. Your statement of "Valorite is almost always 50%-60% against the HIGHEST two resists" just doesn't make sense to me.
     
  26. Can someone explain how to post a table in these forums? HTML tags didn't work.

    Here are the results of calculated base damage based on metal type against different mob groups, before any slayer or other modifications are applied. This is based on averages, not specific mobs. High end mob average resists seem to be well distributed, no bias towards one type of resist or another.

    Iron/DC and Gold are your worst metals for damage, with Verite and Valorite best. (I still like DC for Durability Mod)

    [​IMG]

    If you are going to have just one Super Slayer weapon for each type, this suggests the best metals are:
    No Slayer: Valorite
    Undead: Bronze
    Elemental: Valorite
    Repond: Verite
    Demon: Agapite
    Fey (can't make yet?): Valorite
    Arachnid: Bronze
    Reptile: Agapite or Valorite
    Wolf (Misericord Dagger): Verite
    Other (Human, etc): Verite
     
  27. CorwinXX

    CorwinXX Babbling Loonie
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    Thank you.
    It's a very useful info.
     
  28. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    How many times do I have to give the numbers OVER AND OVER AGAIN?

    Physical: 40%

    2 of the resists are 20%
    the last 2 are 10%.

    NO MATTER WHAT CREATURE TYPE YOU FACE, you are almost certain to have that 40% in either the HIGHEST OR SECOND HIGHEST RESIST.

    That means that is 40% plus either 10% or 20%, going against the two highest.

    or,

    HALF OR 3/5 OF YOUR DAMAGE IN THE TWO WORST DAMAGE CATEGORIES.



    YOUR OWN NUMBERS PROVE IT.

    That's Physical #1, Poison #2

    That's cold #1, Physical #2
    That's cold #1, Physical #2
    That's Physical #1, fire and cold tied for #2
    Poison #1, Physical #2 for the Mean results.
    This is the only spot in your numbers where the median does not have physical in the top two; fire is probably represented too high off from the multiple names for the fire aura gargoyle types (burning, searing, etc.), which all identify as the same creature type with Enemy of One.
    Physical #1, Energy #2 (barely)
    Poison #1, Physical #2

    Physical #1, Poison #2
    Physical #1 mean, #2 in median
    [/quote]
    Physical #1, Fire edging out the others for #2



    SO......

    What part of your OWN NUMBERS do you not get?
     
  29. BREATHE, Basara.... breathe.

    Do you always get this upset when someone challenges your expertise? Really? We are all wrong now and then, but so what? Get over it.

    The part I really don't understand is why you don't make the effort to do some calculations.

    Do you understand how resists and damage work? At least TRY to calculate the numbers, because you are just plain wrong. You keep saying nonsense things and won't even consider that you might be wrong - the combination pairs of two resists mean NOTHING. Where does any of your number pairings prove that Iron weapons are better than Valorite weapons? NOWHERE! Iron hits only against one resist - Physical.

    Do some math, Basara - I did to just to see if you were right and maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. And you know what? YOU ARE WRONG! YOU HAVE NOT YET SHOWN ANY ACTUAL MATH. YOU'VE PROVED NOTHING - well, nothing other than you know how to use the caps key and bold text. Heh... bolds and caps are fun, but they really don't prove your points.

    Here is how damage works:

    Sum [(100% - Mob Resist%)*(Weapon Elemental Damage%)*100 Base Damage%]

    Example:
    ALL Groups: Phy/Fire/Cold/Pois/Energy
    Average - 47.6/38.3/39.0/43.4/37.2
    Median - 47.7/37.7/38.8/40.4/33.9

    Iron Weapon = 100% Physical Damage
    Valorite Weapon = 40% Physical/10% Fire/20% Cold/10% Poison/20% Energy

    Iron Weapon Base Damages = (100%-47.6%)*(100% Physical)*100 + (100%-38.3%)*(0% Fire)*(100%)... rest are zero = 47 (47.6 without rounding)

    Valorite Weapon Base Damage% = (100%-47.6%)*(40%)*100 + (100%-38.3%)*(10%)*100 + (100%-39.0%)*(20%)*100 + (100%-43.4%)*(10%)*100 + (100-37.2%)*(20%)*100 = 21 + 6 + 12 + 5 + 12 = 56 (57.6 without rounding)

    What do the pairings of resist mean here? NOTHING!

    CLEARLY, a Valorite weapon does more damage on average than an Iron weapon. Your "top two" resist categories play no role in the calculations - anywhere - ever. Which part of the numbers don't you understand. Maybe someone can explain it to you, but you won't understand it until you actually do some of the math.

    I do not dispute that a 100% Energy weapon would be best in this grouping - that would give you damage of 62; 100% Fire gives you 61.

    These numbers are only for those time when you do not have Consecrate Weapon in effect - when CW is in effect, the weapon elemental damage does not matter at all. And Enemy of One (not sure why you brought this into the argument) takes affect outside of the calculation of elemental damage and has no bearing on the argument.

    Clearly, you do not understand how the resist and elemental weapon damage works.
     
  30. sirion

    sirion Seasoned Veteran
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    That's some awesome numbers, Old Man. Thanks.

    The ALL GROUP average stat is probably the "real answer", I guess, if anyone is interested to find out what is the best bet for a general purpose wep.



    .
     
  31. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    This table is really very useful. Thank you for sharing!
     
  32. When I have time, I can break it down by Champ Spawn (and level), and by hit points. So, if you wanted to know what was best for certains mobs with greater than 500 hit points, I should be able to tell if there is a difference.

    Just remember, the weapon metal type has no affect when Consecrate Weapon hits, but this should give you a bit of damage boost when it doesn't for very little cost.
     
  33. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    Would you be interested in have your work hosted on Stratics? I am sure they would be willing as this is really good stuff. Intuitively it makes sense, but it is nice to see that you actually crunched the numbers on this one.
     
  34. curlybeard

    curlybeard Seasoned Veteran
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    I think Old Man of UO's approach is similar to my investment strategy.
     
  35. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I have asked that the above table be looked into and added to our info I will get back to you !
     
  36. Please verify the numbers for me!