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What I really dislike about the player base..

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Velvathos, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    Everyone complains that artifacts, item insurance, etc.. Ruined the game, and the majority people who say this, use just that, they use artifacts and insurance, this is just hypocrisy in my opinion... I usually tend to ignore all the game mechanics EA throws at me, I don't use artifacts, I don't use runic hammers or any magic items, and I don't sit AFK at Luna and buy and trade.. I play the game the way it is supposed to be played, although it is very hard, and very lonely at times, because I feel like I am alone in this battle against the majority of the players.. The same people that claim that the latest skill or spell that needs toned down and that tamers need toned down, are the same people who use and play them..

    Lately I have been involved on Europa and this is how we roll..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_RlIs81ACA

    [​IMG]

    /end rant
     
  2. DPudding

    DPudding Guest

    I think I know what the issue is. RP'ers don't really do anything in game because when they mingle with the Non-RP population....they tend to be made fun of....or shunned. I've seen it. So....that kinda limits the people you can play with....and it limits the kinda things you can do. Fight Mel? Can't....I've been writing fiction all week sitting in Bernstone's Pub so I don't have money for regs. Go to Doom? Can't....was working out a treaty with the Orcs all weekend. Don't have any money for arrows.

    Anyway...you limit yourself by the way you've chosen to play. Who knows how much fun you could have if you joined the rest of us? Be the man in your guild! Go out and get some decent gear and show them the upper end of the game!
     
  3. Phaen Grey

    Phaen Grey Lore Master
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    I roleplay, UO is an amazing backdrop for creating wonderful stories both personal and as a community. I also have characters that allow me to experience other facets of this game, everything from dungeon crawling to champ spawns to town invasions. The only limit is your imagination, the devs provide many tools enjoy the game any way you like, no matter what your play-style is.
     
  4. I think RPing is the "upper end of the game"...and not many people realize it. :)
     
  5. R1baldry

    R1baldry Visitor

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    Nobody cares about 12 guys PVPing in GM armor. Go pat yourself on the back somewhere else.
     
  6. Valas

    Valas Guest

    Takes alot more skill than the trash in fell that just have to use the right gear to 3 hit people.
     
  7. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Perhaps the rest of us play both in and outside of the RP community rules enough to realise that some things really are unbalancing or stupid. And there are crazy people here who'll cry over nothing. The rules you follow prohibit things because some RP GMs felt they were bad. Other players don't like some of those things themselves. But in UHall we're talking about the UO world as a whole, not that portion who choose to follow RP rulesets. The rest of the game exists and some players want to experience its entirety, whether they're RPers or not. I'm a RPer, I follow various rules of engagement depending who I meet, but I also play the rest of the game too. And in that game there are issues. Some players like yourself will just act like they don't exist, others would prefer if those changes were made to the UO lands as a whole so their entire experience was untainted.

    Wenchy
     
  8. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    I do wish you’d just stuck to “What I really dislike about the player base is that they’re so hypocritical; they complain about things that they perceive as being ‘wrong’ with the game and yet, even though if nobody used the items they wouldn’t be able to ruin the game like they’re currently doing, the players are too lazy to simply boycott them.” That’s a valid point, although what you have to realise is that even if you don’t play the game competitively (I don’t consider roleplaying a “competitive” play-style – not so much as PvPing, anyway, or building a rare item collection more impressive than that of the person in the next castle across), other people do; they may not like the way the others have rewritten the rules of the game, but they have to follow the rewritten rules as best they can or they’ll be left behind. Some people play UO to compete with others. It’s not really fair to criticise them for trying to keep up with the crowd when that’s how they like to play. They get their satisfaction out of measuring themselves, comparing, hoarding, racing, killing, and above all, winning

    …and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    That’s the part of your post that made me look at it sideways and then write one of my characteristic big thread-killing essays: “I play the game the way it is supposed to be played…”. That type of comment, I tend to take umbrage at. Why?

    Firstly, I’m a roleplayer. That is how I play the game. Were I not confined to Oceania by ping, I would have left for Europa or Baja years ago, because I know that they have large vibrant roleplay communities and, well, I would very much like to be part of a large vibrant roleplay community – but the fact is that I am stuck on Oceania and will be so for the rest of my UO-playing life (or until I can afford a faster connection.) We have a very small handful of dedicated roleplayers on my little shard, but the vast majority of us are not roleplayers. I’d say that the population is split up pretty evenly between PvMers – who are as quiet as PvMers generally are - and PvPers – including, I suspect, some of the most aggressive griefers in the game (there’s a reason that we’re up to our… thirteenth, I think… locked PvP thread.) When you’re in the extreme minority like I am, you get a good taste of how others perceive your play-style because they are not afraid to tell you. I mean, what are we going to do in retaliation? Sit outside their Felucca castles and fire grammar at them? Monopolise the market on pears and apples? You are a roleplayer too, so I’m sure you already know what the rest of the player-base thinks of roleplayers. Nowadays I’ve become part of the Oceania furniture, sitting in Luna and doggedly maintaining my punctuation through the storms of abuse, and for the most part they leave me alone; when I was newer to the shard I was griefed and harassed almost constantly, and it was proven to me repeatedly that the rest of the players think of us as dirt. Dirt! We’re everybody’s least favourite group of players. We’re the furries of the Ultima Online world.

    Now, I’ve been in OOC arguments before – many, many times, some surprisingly fierce; that quote in my signature is not the type of thing that gets directed at a peaceful loving friend to all mankind – about the best way to play the game. “The way it is supposed to be played,” to quote you. According to the PvPers (vicious mongrels but always brutally honest), roleplayers are all socially inept, morbidly obese, bedroom-dwelling recluses who are so unhappy with their own miserable lives that they retreat into a fantasy world and live out their unrealised dreams through a jerkily animated fictional character. According to the roleplayers (including some of the most pompous, self-absorbed, superior pseudo-intellectuals I’ve ever met; not on Oceania, mind you, but in other places and on other games), PvPers are meat-headed grunting apes seething with frustrated testosterone and so bitter about the size of their real-life genitalia that if they don’t get their daily quota of pixelated blood they will shrivel up into a tiny ball of insecurity and die. And according to you, you are a true player because you remain faithful to the view of the medieval world and the original Ultima series, and everybody else is a lazy hypocrite who will happily denounce everything they can think of but will continue to use it regardless in their quest for cheap thrills.

    Please correct me if the above description is incorrect, but I suspect that I’ve got it right. I used to think like that too. “This is my Ultima,” I’d think to myself as I watched my character’s text get drowned out by capslock abuse from some neon-clad dismount ninja or another. “What are all these idiots doing here? Can’t they see that neon armour and big magical weapons have no place in the Ultima universe? Why can’t they go play World of Warcraft and leave me alone to grimly watch my medieval nobleman sit in the bank by himself and look like he actually belongs there, even if there’s nobody left for him to interact with?” (Yes, I was and am a bank-sitter; Luna, too. I do nothing but roleplay anymore; I’ve achieved all that I want to in all those other areas, and the bank is where the people are.) My play-style, contrary to popular opinion, was the right one. PvPers were idiots, PvMers were morons, rares collectors were pathetic, and all these people using magical weapons, wearing armour and dragging around hiryus (the pet du jour back then) were being unfaithful to the game. They weren’t playing it the right way. They weren’t playing it as it used to be and therefore they had no right to be playing at all.

    The thing is, I was wrong.

    I’m used to this sort of attitude from PvPers, but from a fellow roleplayer it really sticks in my throat. To play our own way, we need to rely on tolerance from the other players. If the other players want to force PvMers out of a public place, the people they torment will just come in, do their banking, and go out hunting again. But roleplayers need the public place. If they want to force us into a little spot in the middle of nowhere that only we and our friends know about, they only need to spam over the top of us every time we try to speak. Roleplayers need newcomers occasionally. If they want to abuse every new player who asks about roleplay in the bank, thus ensuring that we get no new blood and our population stagnates, they can. Roleplayers need other people, and if the other people are driven away, there can be no roleplay – and people are easy to drive away. The GMs won’t do anything and the griefers know it. Oceania has been exceptionally kind to me – I have friends in the PvM and rare-hunting circles, and even a few PKers (I will not name names; they would be ganked); even people who don’t roleplay have accepted that I will not go out-of-character and they try to keep our interactions canonically plausible, I am not treated with fear and loathing like the poster below you generalised that we all are, and for that I am thankful – but I still recognise that my play-style more than any other depends on the other players’ grace.

    So what am I ranting about? I’m ranting about you saying that your way is the way that the game should be played. This is wrong. This game is a public domain; we are all free to do with it what we will. If you want to roleplay, then roleplay. This does not make you more faithful, or more intelligent, or any worthier a player than a PvPer who doesn’t grief, a rares collector who doesn’t dupe, a PvMer who doesn’t lure, or any other player that sticks to what they find fun without disrupting anybody else’s game-play or – and this is important – forcing their style upon others. Ultima Online is a sandbox. There is no “proper” way to play. All play-styles are equal, all have their own merits, and nobody has the right to criticise how another person plays the game as long as they stick to the rules of conduct and respect the rights of others to play however they want.

    Yes, I get abused by PvPers all the time. No, I don’t drop fifteen-hundred-word essays into their threads telling them to cease and desist. There’s too many of them and the attitude is too prevalent; it would be a waste of time. But in this game, with these peers, a roleplayer should know better than to say that theirs is the “only way to play the game.” In my opinion the one thing that the roleplaying community has above the others (besides, obviously, the fact that they and I play the game the same way) is humility. We are a community, a small one, and it’s best to think of us as such. Being obnoxious about the correctness of roleplaying as compared to all other styles wins us no friends and does us no favours; we are already the red-headed step-children of UO, and elitism on our part will only make matters worse than they already are. I would like to see us respected as legitimate players someday. The least we can offer is a little respect in return.

    </hilariously serious business>
     
  9. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    The problem is, for certain game content, you HAVE TO use such equipment. You can't do invasions, EA events, champ spawns or peerless without the best equipment.
     
  10. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    <nods> Absolutely! It takes REAL skill to RP. I did it on MUCKs for years then moved into UO. Sure I OOC many times, but if I'm around folks who are RPing, I drop into IC like **that** <snaps fingers>

    It is the connsumate end-game IMO.
     
  11. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    And THAT is not right ... there were invasions before that were handled with (perhaps) GM-made weaponry and armor. WTH is wrong with going back and NOT requiring all the high-end stuff newer players might not be able to afford yet?

    Champs, etc ... sure ... use the best or most versatile ... whatever. But things like the invasions? Nah ...
     
  12. I think this is just another "Let's all vote for a classic shard!"
     
  13. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Unfortunately, pretty much all our traffic to the world outside Australia goes through one router. Doesn't much matter how fast your link to your ISP is, you're still going through that cable across the ocean, and by the end of it you've added 200ms to your ping time.

    (Hahahah, you're stuck with us forever!) ;)
     
  14. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    How long can you maintain interest killing sewer rats these days?

    Not very long, I'd wager. Sure, it might be a challenge for the newbies, but there aren't enough of 'em to justify lowering the challenge to much for "regulars".

    Though, it does make me think. Say an event came along that got it's own special facet. Wouldn't need to be a BIG facet. But in this facet, insurance/bless/bonding etc could be nullified. Players free to do what they like elsewhere, but they'd need to tone down their equipment for the event zone.

    This coulda been done, for example, with the Moonglow rift event (which got it's own special map area).
     
  15. Thats not hipocrasy. Thats you making a blanket statement and believing your right.

    Wheres you proof a majority of people that complain use artificats?
     
  16. Velvathos

    Velvathos Lore Keeper
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    Stratics alone is enough proof..
     
  17. Huh? You may be right about the artifacts, but this statement is off base. MOST players do not post on Stratics. Your proof is a bit short.
     
  18. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    A word of advice...Don't use words like "All" or "Everyone". As soon as you use general terms like that, you've lost alot of credibility, since you are obviously incorrect. I am part of "Everyone" and I have not complained that artifacts and insurance have ruined the game.

    I like artifacts. I think they've added a huge dynamic to the game. Insurance is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see it tweeked a bit, but I wouldn't want it completely removed and it definitely hasn't "ruined" the game.
     
  19. Sooooo.... The players here are hipocrits?
    And dont get it.
     
  20. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    This is news to me since I do them with GM crafted armor and weapons I've found while hunting.
     
  21. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Because it's use it or lose. That is what people resent and it's not at all hypocritical to have to do it while not liking it. That's like saying anyone who pays for private health insurance policies has no right to complain about healthcare in the U.S.

    The AoS changes were awful; I've never been shy or apologetic about saying that. If I wanted to play Diablo 2, it's free.

    A lot of people remember a time when UO was not just about calculating the optimal build and farming the optimal gearset and then slapping insurance on it and pretending your manhood just gained 3 inches. I miss the days when PvP meant me and some other guy in mixmatched plate and chain got into a fight over spawn we were competing for and fought with our plain halberd vs. plain viking sword.

    If you think PvP today is great... you honestly have no idea what you missed out on.
     
  22. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    I don't look at that as a problem. I look at it as using magical equipment within a magical game to do magical things. Isn't that what Fantasy Role-Playing is all about?
     
  23. Duskofdead

    Duskofdead Sage
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    Fantasy role playing is not or at least should not be about spending hours farming the next piece of requisite gear to go do the next dungeon.

    It's EQ and WOW which have established that as the MMO norm, and it has everything to do with monthly subscription fees and nothing to do with making a better RPG.
     
  24. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Stratics isn't even half the player-base. And not everyone complains about arties. Yes, a lot do, but it's almost always the same people every time.

    But it is basically use it or loose it. You can't really play the game well with just GM made items.
    Unless your main build is a begger, a detective, or any build that doesn't really need items, you kind of have to use all these new items if you want a fighting chance at anything now.
     
  25. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
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    Yes. because we all know living in the past = better community.
    Artifacts/insurance didn't harm the community in that it made the game all horrible. It's all the people that REFUSED to adapt.


    Europa's extremely strict RP rules may work for a few but it's not really very exciting. Banning skills/items and such...beh.
     
  26. Mirage

    Mirage Guest

    Ah...but you don't HAVE to use insurance!
     
  27. Some of you know me as that "Crazy Classic Shard Chick" (or something far less kind than that). So it can be safely said that I am extremely vocal about wanting a classic shard, one without neon colors, and artifacts, and "uber" weapons, etc.

    But if you run into me in the game, will I be wearing GM made armor with no item properties? No.

    Will I be carrying artifacts as weapons? Yes.

    Will any of those leave my house without a fresh coat of Tokuno dyes (black or white...maybe deep red)? No.

    What I am saying here is this.

    We still have to play the game. The devs introduced all this stuff, and if you want to be able to do the higher end PvM, or certainly PvP, activities in the game, under the current rule set...you have to have some of these things.

    Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so.

    Would it make me a hypocrite after all my b!tching about wanting a classic shard I didn't move there if one was invented? Most likely.

    So as long as I have no option, I have to do what I have to do in order to stay in the game.

    Not sure that makes sense...but it does to me. I guess that will have to do.
     
  28. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Er, is this some lame attempt at a trolling post?

    Failing to use insurance = losing that equipment = can't do invasions, EA events, champ spawns or peerless.

    You might as well say "you don't HAVE to play UO"!
     
  29. I think this quote is the biggest hole in your argument, as there is no one way the game is supposed to be played, which in my opinion is the beauty of the game. I don't RP, nor do I PvP, but these are both parts of the game, and vital parts at that, so I don't begrudge those who partake in them. When I play, I may PvM, craft, and run my vendors, all of which also have their own vital purposes to the success of the game. It is these many varied aspects that helps to keep people interested, as you are not forced to do the same things every time you play, unless you want to do the same thing every time you play. I find the fact that you don't have to play the game the way others do, unless you want to play with said others (thus the whole MMORPG part of it), one of the best aspects of the game, and even when "forced" to mingle with those who do not share your own particular playstyle, these "strangers" who do things differently from you today may become your best in-game friends tomorrow!!!

    Thank you and please drive-thru...
     
  30. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    See, you are enslaved to the idea that since insurance is a part of the game, you HAVE to use it or else you might lose your valuable equipment. What's more, since the equipment is in the game, you HAVE to have it. Me, I'm old school. I wear GM tailored armor or enhanced pieces that I've picked up while hunting. I don't have all 70 suits and I don't use insurance. Don't really need it for the equipment I use and what's more, even if I die, I can usually recover my items. I got pretty good at it back in the day when there was no item insurance nor was there insta-loot. Just the insta-loot alone makes it so much easier to keep your items. So for people who say that can't do these things, I ask you this: Why am I able to?
     
  31. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    Why not? Do you want the gear handed to you? Or just not available at all? You call it farming, I call it training, gathering experience, or raising the requisite gold or ToT points.

    Fantasy fiction is all about that special magical sword, ring, or helmet that gives the wearer a leg-up on their foes. Of course in Fantasy Fiction, there is only 1 main hero and 1 main villain, so there is no need for a plethora of magical stuff. However, in a world where 10's of thousands want to be the hero or villain, the only way to allow all be what they want to be is to have an endless source of magical stuff available to everyone and a way for all of the players to earn them.
     
  32. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    Well said Setnaffa.

     
  33. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Well thats not true. We do all the same stuff on siege as anyone does on prodo shards. Very few people have the best gear.
     
  34. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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  35. Beleg Megil

    Beleg Megil Guest

    Playing the game the way it was meant to be played means evolving along with it.

    Personally, I think its unrealistic as a role player to have my characters ignore their surroundings and environment, which include equipment.

    If you play a fighter, adventurer type of character, would that character want to be the best at what he does? Would he want a better sword or armor if he or she knew it was readily availible? Or would he or she think "Well...I am seeing lots of others carry incredibly good equipment. In the hands of someone as skilled as I am, they would best me in a fight....Nah, I'll just not try to gain an edge."

    Seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that too many people who role play are trying to apply OUR logic, Earth logic of the 21st century to your characters, which are by and large Sosarian. Magic and artifacts and (unfortunately imo) neon colors are common place to Sosarian. New equipment and items and lands and skills pop up in Sosaria routinely. The NPCs seem used to it. Maybe us rpers need to learn from them.
     
  36. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    That takes me back. That's like Pre AOS. We were having PvP tournaments for 100k, to the winner. We would limit how many bandages you could have. One of the best things about those tournaments was how long the fights lasted. It's really hard to show how fun it is with a video unless you were actually there, it's hard to understand.

    I often thought that the way we tend to die so quickly takes away from the game. Maybe we should have 500 hit points or so. This is a very difficult situation but I think what makes this type of thing so unique is the fact of what UO is today. If nothing had ever changed in UO then what you are wouldn't be so special. So, you have to respect the ying and the yang. I have trouble understanding exactly what the problem is because you are able to roleplay and other game styles don't affect that and if they do I didn't see anything in your post about how they do.

    Sure, some people are not going to accept people acting differently but obviously you are alot stronger than that. As far as insurance and artifacts go, I don't really understand why you could not put them on and insure them. I understand that you do not want to but I don't understand the arguement as to why you don't want to.

    Basically, what I see in the video is that everything is the same. This could be done with artifacts as well. If everyone wears GM armour then they have the equal to resistances. Same as if everyone wore the same artifacts, they would be equal to each other but you are unique and you would lose that.

    So, maybe the problem is that you need GM armour to be made that would equal all
    70's and a weapon that could be made to equal x amount of damage vs. player and more damage vs. PvM.

    I'm really having a hard time understanding what the struggle is. I do however wish you guys were on Atlantic.

    We have roleplaying communities but nothing that is limited to what they wear as far as I know except for the orcs, but I think they are gone.
     
  37. DPudding

    DPudding Guest

    It's a question of what you've got versus what you want. I think most feel the upper-end stuff is simply out of their reach....so they choose to not partake. Not because they don't want it....but because they can't attain it under the rules they play by.

    Let me give a real world example.....they say an artist must suffer for their art. It's another way of empowering the notion of a "Starving Artist". Somehow the art is better and more pure when the artist is a nobody and starving to death. Soon as they make it....soon as they embrace success....people see them as diminished. "Oh....he/she used to be the best....now he/she's sold out their soul for money and fame!" No....he/she's now better off then you are....which makes them a target for hatred. It's an old chestnut, really. Kinda like the goth kids on South Park that hate the establishment.

    Just my Two Cents.....
     
  38. Zooithion

    Zooithion Crazed Zealot
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    That's fair. I normally do too. I play with what I get and there are still a lot of things I'd like to get but the rng or something seems unfair a lot of the time :( I don't know what you mean about not using magic items tho, magic is part of the game. I use what i get by playing the game.

    I don't often feel lonely. I ignore the cheaters and cheater talk and such things cause my feeling is that that stuff simply hurts anyone playing.

    I'm fortunate that I am in a very old guild of friends that are a mix of newer players and people like me that have played forever. That's what makes the most fun for me. To be able to log in and see people playing in my guild that I know. I do play alone alot but what makes the game is to have players that you get to know and like. I've never met any of the friends/guild in real life but I think that's what people mean when they talk about the community in UO. It takes some time to get to know a group of people but it is worth it because it REALLY makes UO a lot more fun.

    Didn't really mean to get off on this but that's what I would recommend players to do -- take the extra steps to get to know people in this 'game'. It adds a lot of fun as fun is what you make of it and UO is the playground :)
     
  39. siyeng0

    siyeng0 Guest

    Well-said. At the risk of sounding all existantial, my character does not exist on Earth, nor does he exist in the universe of the original Ultima series; he exists on Sosaria, which means that he lives amidst and with the changes that the devs program around him. They determine what our world is, and therefore anything that they put into the world is part of the canon. Using those items doesn't make you less of a roleplayer. My character doesn't use neon colours (he thinks they're ugly) nor does he dress in the classic rune-beetle-carapace/quiver-of-infinity/kasa-of-the-ra-jin/crimson-cincture/soulseeker PvP outfit (he thinks it looks ridiculous and scoffs whenever someone runs past him wearing it), but he doesn't ignore them. They're part of his world now. They exist to him; they're as real in-universe as he is. When I roleplay I immerse myself in the world, and that world (unfortunately in my opinion too) includes neon colours, artefacts, and thankfully no longer candy-coloured swamp dragons. Am I less of a purist than the OP? Yes. Am I a less dedicated roleplayer? No.

    Certainly, if the OP wants to create an alternate world, if you like, in which the citizens never deviated from pre-AOS fashions, he is welcome to do so. More power to him. Historical roleplaying is fun too. But it makes just as much sense to play within the provided world, artefacts and all - and, face it, a halberd that sets things on fire is fun.

    </still disgruntled about both "I play the game the way it is supposed to be played" and "Who knows how much fun you could have if you joined the rest of us?">
     
  40. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    Because you don't PvP in Felucca.
     
  41. Mirage

    Mirage Guest

    Was a lame attempt at humor? Lighten up...
     
  42. sablestorm

    sablestorm Certifiable
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    I'm in Felucca quite a bit and can take care of myself, thank you very much.
     
  43. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    I refuse to believe that other players don't loot your corpse, even if you're wearing rubbish equipment.

    Or are you trying to tell me you can BEAT them that way? You must be very selective in whom you fight with.
     

  44. I win all the time with nothing but friendship. Friends are the most valuable thing you can have in UO. If you want my death robe you can have it. The healer will just give me another. I am a beggar and proud of it. If you wish to contribute to what I have I wish to thank you for it.

    My artifacts are friends. Hard to find and the most valued things in UO.
    You can loot me all you want. You will never get my friends.