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What if SA redefines the game?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by cjc2797x, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. cjc2797x

    cjc2797x Guest

    I have just a hunch, but what if the reason for SA being soleing KR accessable is due in part to the playability and graphics. What if they didn't make SA tile based like 2d, but instead made movement seemless without the capatability issues of being bolted on to the 2d client?

    Wouldn't we see what the KR client could REALLY do as a stand alone client? Could it be the 'make or break it' mindset of EA?

    I, for one, would like to see what SA offers that it's counter part 2d does not.

    p.s. I'm an exclusive 2d player. I'm waiting for the next patch to fix crash issues, but have an open mind to this concept.
     
  2. White Wolf

    White Wolf Guest

    You can put a "what if" in front of 5000 things in this game.

    What we need is a bunch of stuff with a "they fixed" in front of it.
     
  3. cjc2797x

    cjc2797x Guest

    Actually, the FIX, as you put it, would include EVERYONE on the KR client so that scripting and bugs could be effectively FIXED with a client that could do so - instead of expecting fixes from code (1994?) that only requires a text editor and a computer to circumvent its source code.

    [censored] would be out of business at that point.

    That's why I think SA is important to the future of UO.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ...

    I'd love to see what could be done on a pure KR-based server from MANY levels... graphical, technical, exploit prevention and so on.

    And while I believe that your OP is/was the original plan with SA, we'll have to see.

    Still, WW is right. UO needs a lot more than just the SA expansion and KR (though they are PART of what UO needs). UO needs to fix a LOT of issues in the form of balance and content. The game needs to be engaging again. PvP needs purpose. Virtues need a rewrite. Legacy dungeons need more than an event drop lowered down to something below abysmal in drop rate. ToT needs to be part of a list of limited time repeated events. The list goes on.
     
  5. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Ul·ti·ma On·line <font color="red">(uhl-tuh-muh on-lahyn, awn-)</font>
    <font color="green">-noun</font>
    a prepared food having the consistency of custard, made from milk curdled by the action of cultures, sometimes sweetened or flavored.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    <blockquote><hr>

    Ul·ti·ma On·line <font color="red">(uhl-tuh-muh on-lahyn, awn-)</font>
    <font color="green">-adjective</font>
    1. hard to understand; recondite; esoteric: ultima online theories.
    2. Obsolete. secret; hidden.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    <blockquote><hr>

    Ul·ti·ma On·line <font color="red">(uhl-tuh-muh on-lahyn, awn-)</font>
    <font color="green">-adjective</font>
    1. Also, Ul·ti·ma On·lined. Botany, Zoology. having a border of hairs or filiform processes.
    <font color="green">–verb (used with object)</font>
    2. Heraldry. to line (an ordinary) with a thin border of a different tincture.

    [/ QUOTE ]
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    That is exactly why SA is KR only, it's already been said it's not tile based.

    Trouble is, for it to be KR only, KR has to actually work. For far too many people it's either unusable or only useable for some functions.

    I took the attitude 'it's the future, therefore I have to learn how to use it'. I have got my pc to a stage where it can run KR at a useable speed. But.

    I can't figure out the targetting system so that I can vet my pets efficiently (setting bandages to 'target -cursor' isn't as efficient as using the 2D targetting)
    I can't use the free form back pack to stock vendors, nothing goes where you try to put it and all my stuff is squashed up in a heap in one corner.
    Riding a giant beetle is impossible, it skews from side to side instead of moving in a straight line, and when running disappears altogether.

    I have really tried to use this client, if felt like something I should do so as not to hold my much loved game back, but I've given it up as an exercise in frustration.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The reason SA was going to be KR-only was simply that they wanted to do art for one client only and do things with that art that couldn't be done with 2D anyway.

    However, along the way, they messed up with KR and haven't managed to get it into a state that a majority of players want to use it. Meaning SA would be of interest to about 5% of UO subscribers, which would be a waste of time and money.

    I suspect that at the time most of the devs left the team the decision for them was whether to fix KR so that it did become used by most players or make SA fully available for both clients. The first seems a long way off and disappearing over the horizon and the second is a lot of work for a nearly non-existent dev team.
     
  8. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
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    <blockquote><hr>

    The reason SA was going to be KR-only was simply that they wanted to do art for one client only and do things with that art that couldn't be done with 2D anyway.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    With Cathat gone you think they will have a decent graphics person anytime soon? It is especially hard to hire a new designer who they expect to use with a proprierity client?
     
  9. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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    What everyone seems to forget is that when SA is released there will be (should be anyway) a substantial influx of NEW players. Present a new player who has never played UO before with the choice of 2D and KR and I would say that at least 90% of them will choose KR.

    This is how KR will become the major client, not from the Vets, because they (I) love the 2D client and are so used to it. If KR is to be more successful then it MUST get the new players in, its really what it was designed for anyway.

    We already know from various sources that KR is quite popular, despite the impression that U.Hall gives. All you need do is look how many people have download/are downloading the client to see evidence of this (unfortunately listing legal sites to backup this claim is somehow taboo on stratics, but google is your friend).

    The problem is that UO's current subscriber base is mostly made up of vets, and not to many new players... this is not KR's fault, blame EA but not KR it hasn't had its chance to shine yet.

    A fresh new expansion is needed (SA), with it selling KR on its DVD in a nice lookin box set with lots and lots of advertising (yeh I know I am dreaming... specially for Australia lol). It has been to long since we have had a major influx of new players (the last time woulda been ML probably).

    They also need to fix a few of KR's bugs, although I am yet to find 1 bug (in its latest patch) in it that is game breaking and it has crashed on me maybe twice total since beta. Most of KR's bugs are graphical (ie giant bug facing wrong way while your riding etc). When you stack the two clients up together, bugs are not an issue as 2D is absolutely PACKED with bugs (for instance, hold ctrl+shift while a player dies, bet it will client crash you).

    IF EA/Mythic can HTFU and get SA ready/released (PROPERLY) then and only then will we see KR shine, until then it will remain the flashy new client that 5% of the (vet) population use because they all love 2D, fair enough too, I love 2D also (and play it 99% of the time)!
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    New players? From where, pray tell.

    How much shelf presence does UO have? How much market presence in commercials does UO have? Damn little ... get EA Marketing to do something for UO in your face, then we can talk about new players.

    And as soon as all the new players that MIGHT appear out of the woodwork find how the current condition of KR as compared to other stuff "out there", how long do you think they will stay?

    Sorry, gotta disagree with ya on this. Unless EA/Mythic pulls the rabbit out of the hat real soon it won't happen.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    The reason SA was going to be KR-only was simply that they wanted to do art for one client only and do things with that art that couldn't be done with 2D anyway.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    With Cathat gone you think they will have a decent graphics person anytime soon? It is especially hard to hire a new designer who they expect to use with a proprierity client?

    [/ QUOTE ]

    yeah probably no one esle in the United States can be tagged as an effective graphics person. Might be years before EA births their own and raises him or her to manage things graphically. Cause before Cathat there was only lots of others and he turned out fine.
     
  12. "Virtues need a rewrite."

    Uh, don't they need to be finished before they can get a rewrite?


    As a player that consistently works up the Virtues on most of my characters, and uses them daily in my gameplay, this is one of the things that just sticks in my craw. The ones that are working are great, and are one of the systems in the game that actually work well, with the only complaint about them being the decay rate compared to the time it takes to work them up.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    KR is getting better.
    SA will be tasty.

    UO is moving forward.

    Why are people so blind?
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "KR is getting better" - Well it was until it stopped doing so.

    "SA will be tasty" - On what even shread of evidence do you base that?

    "UO is moving forward" - lol, you one of a tiny minority that believes that.

    "Why are people so blind?" - Perhaps we need some of your rose-tinted spectacles so we can see 'better' [​IMG]
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    "KR is getting better" - Well it was until it stopped doing so.

    "SA will be tasty" - On what even shread of evidence do you base that?

    "UO is moving forward" - lol, you one of a tiny minority that believes that.

    "Why are people so blind?" - Perhaps we need some of your rose-tinted spectacles so we can see 'better' [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]


    Tasty. Well full use of KR.
     
  16. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    New players? From where, pray tell.

    How much shelf presence does UO have? How much market presence in commercials does UO have? Damn little ... get EA Marketing to do something for UO in your face, then we can talk about new players.

    And as soon as all the new players that MIGHT appear out of the woodwork find how the current condition of KR as compared to other stuff "out there", how long do you think they will stay?

    Sorry, gotta disagree with ya on this. Unless EA/Mythic pulls the rabbit out of the hat real soon it won't happen.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Note I said, 'PROPERLY' release SA. That includes decent marketing. Unlikely I know. Regardless SA will bring in new players (it just depends how many), even if they release they the way they did ML (download only), which would be the worst possible way they could do it IMO. Needs to be both d/l and box in stores.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    We already know from various sources that KR is quite popular, despite the impression that U.Hall gives. All you need do is look how many people have download/are downloading the client to see evidence of this (unfortunately listing legal sites to backup this claim is somehow taboo on stratics, but google is your friend).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Download numbers are not a good judge of how many people use the client.

    Why do you think that any new players will be joining Uo based on this client; history shows that marketing from EA will be an afterthought. Have you looked at other gaming sites at what the impression of the new KR client is; the KR client is not being well recieved.
     
  18. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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  19. <blockquote><hr>

    Download numbers are not a good judge of how many people use the client.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is true. I've downloaded it 3 times (Formats and Frustration), but barely use it. About all I use it for is the toggle for quest item when I feel like doing Heartwood quests.
     
  20. Sneaky Que

    Sneaky Que Babbling Loonie
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    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    Download numbers are not a good judge of how many people use the client.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    This is true. I've downloaded it 3 times (Formats and Frustration), but barely use it. About all I use it for is the toggle for quest item when I feel like doing Heartwood quests.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Download numbers show how heavy the interest in the client is. That is a rough idea of how many people want to play it, not what they think of it.

    The thing is that 90% of people who dislike the KR client simply WANT it to be bad, even though its actually quite good.
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I seem to be one of a few who like the looks of KR, but the fuzzyness is a deal breaker for me. I REALLY hope KR is the answer.

    But I can also tell you this. If EA released a pre LRR shard I'd be all over it and so would a ton of my friends.
     
  22. <blockquote><hr>

    Download numbers show how heavy the interest in the client is. That is a rough idea of how many people want to play it, not what they think of it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Perhaps that's true. Some people do just want to see what it looks like. However, interest does not equate to success, by any means.

    <blockquote><hr>

    The thing is that 90% of people who dislike the KR client simply WANT it to be bad, even though its actually quite good.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    A matter of opinion and preference. Nothing more.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone who's INTERESTED in something WANTS it to be bad, although train wrecks are fun to watch.

    I'd love for KR to run better on my machine, and for it to look good. It has a great UI, some nice modern features, bindable keys.. But it just runs like a hog, and I can't afford to upgrade. And more than that, I just simply can't stand the artwork. It doesn't feel like UO to me.

    But then again, that's preference. EAMythic's decision to hold back on SA (with no mention of a launch date in sight), and spend a great deal of time and effort into fixing KR should be more indicative on how much of a success it actually was.

    I do hope for it's success. I do still read up on people's KR experiences, suggestions, and whatnot, and think of my own ways to improve it. It's the only potential future UO will have. That doesn't mean it's a success now, nor that it ever will be, though.
     
  23. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Actually, the FIX, as you put it, would include EVERYONE on the KR client so that scripting and bugs could be effectively FIXED with a client that could do so - instead of expecting fixes from code (1994?) that only requires a text editor and a computer to circumvent its source code.

    [censored] would be out of business at that point.

    That's why I think SA is important to the future of UO.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There seems to be a common misconception that KR will somehow lead to fixing the scripting problem but unfortunately that is just not the case. There are programs similar to the 2D prog , for KR.
     
  24. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Then I will be very very surprised and this time not follow blindly as with AOS, but take a close look and then decide.
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    What everyone seems to forget is that when SA is released there will be (should be anyway) a substantial influx of NEW players. Present a new player who has never played UO before with the choice of 2D and KR and I would say that at least 90% of them will choose KR.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Huh? Why would someone look at KR/SA and think "Wow, that has higher system requirements and worse graphics than Wow/GW/EQ2 etc etc" That's the game for me!"

    If you limit their choices to KR or 2D you may or may not get the response your expecting. However in the real world they have the choice between every other game out there. Even if you ignore the hefty system requirements KR doesn't even come close to stacking up against the other games that have been on the market for the past 5 years eye candy wise.

    <blockquote><hr>


    This is how KR will become the major client, not from the Vets, because they (I) love the 2D client and are so used to it. If KR is to be more successful then it MUST get the new players in, its really what it was designed for anyway.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yes it must, but read above. Higher System Requirements + Lower Quality Graphics != More New Players. It just doesn't add up as a feasable solution. That's even if we assume the KR Client worked and was Bug Free.

    Hell, with the KR Client being Free, we'd have expected to at least see SOME influx of new players by now, which we really haven't. Commercial expansion or not.

    <blockquote><hr>


    We already know from various sources that KR is quite popular, despite the impression that U.Hall gives. All you need do is look how many people have download/are downloading the client to see evidence of this (unfortunately listing legal sites to backup this claim is somehow taboo on stratics, but google is your friend).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Site your sources, everything Mythic has told us is that it hasn't nearly come close to meeting their expectations as far as uptake. I can't think of any better source for information than the company that's running the game.

    Downloads mean 0. You have to THEN remove how many people never completed the download. Take out the Multiple-Downloads. Then remove the large chunk of people who downloaded it, tried it and it wouldn't work on their PC. Then those who downloaded it, tried it, and decided they didn't like it. Not to mention a plethora of smaller reasons one might have downloaded it. It's probably the least reliable method of judging it's popularity.

    <blockquote><hr>


    The problem is that UO's current subscriber base is mostly made up of vets, and not to many new players... this is not KR's fault, blame EA but not KR it hasn't had its chance to shine yet.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    KR has had 6 months to shine at least, and that in and of itself is the time it's been OUT of Beta. So it's had it's chance to shine, it just fell seriously flat.

    <blockquote><hr>


    A fresh new expansion is needed (SA), with it selling KR on its DVD in a nice lookin box set with lots and lots of advertising (yeh I know I am dreaming... specially for Australia lol). It has been to long since we have had a major influx of new players (the last time woulda been ML probably).


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Yea, good luck with that, I don't think it'll help much. Almost certainly not to attract long-time players. A Box on a shelf, especially if you take previous launches/boxes as any indication doesn't really bring more people into this game, because as it is it can't compete equally with everything else that's out there.

    <blockquote><hr>


    They also need to fix a few of KR's bugs, although I am yet to find 1 bug (in its latest patch) in it that is game breaking and it has crashed on me maybe twice total since beta. Most of KR's bugs are graphical (ie giant bug facing wrong way while your riding etc). When you stack the two clients up together, bugs are not an issue as 2D is absolutely PACKED with bugs (for instance, hold ctrl+shift while a player dies, bet it will client crash you).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Take a look at the KR Forums 'eh? I think there are more bugs and issues in the KR Client than in the 2D client, especially major game-stopping ones. However I suppose those results are a bit skiewed. It's easier to find bugs when the majority is using a client (2D) since you have a larger 'test base'.

    I mean, to the best of my knowledge not everything works, or works well in KR (hey I can be wrong). Still I think most people who run vendors still log into 2D to stock.

    <blockquote><hr>


    IF EA/Mythic can HTFU and get SA ready/released (PROPERLY) then and only then will we see KR shine, until then it will remain the flashy new client that 5% of the (vet) population use because they all love 2D, fair enough too, I love 2D also (and play it 99% of the time)!

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There are other reasons. I personally don't love 2D, It's just, in my humble opinion, a much better, well thought out client with considerably less game stopping issues, especially when you put it up against KR. At least if nothing else the perspective for the world/items is consistant.

    The fact of the matter is, KR has had time to shine, it's been released for quite some time now. You state ML as a comparison of the last 'influx' of new players, that wasn't a box that was download only, the only difference between it and KR is that KR was free... and yet still nobody wants it. Heck, it hasn't even been able to keep older players who have come back simply to give KR a shot.

    It's had pleanty of time, more than most. However there HAS to come a time when you look at it and say "Okay, that's enough" instead of "Oh yea, when it's done it'll be great!" I mean it's a freakin release client already.

    I digress though, I disagree that KR/SA will add new players, or even bring back many old players. It's just not what an argueable majority want out of their UO experience. Just like with UO3D and Ilshnar.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    -George Santayana


    ~Rai
     
  26. I'm more curious in how much of SA is already done. My take on the whole KR/SA thing is that a large number of the devs have been working on KR recently, but a while ago the devs thought KR was much closer to what the players were looking for (they missed). Back then, I think they were working on SA quite a bit and there is probably already a lot of work done on SA.

    Weren't they hiring map designers over a year ago? I don't think those map designers were hired to blow up magincia...

    If SA is going to be roughly the size of the T2A map, where did the devs get that estimate? I would argue that they got that estimate based on design drawings or possibly even actual map files.

    A while back devs mentioned 3 new gargoyle skills. A crafting skill, a spellcasting skill and a warrior skill. This implies that at least some of the design work is done in that aspect of the SA expansion as well...

    We've seen existing dungeons enhanced recently, which implies that the devs may be trying to make existing content more interesting so that it isn't completely irrelevant when SA is released (if that's possible). Either that, or they're just giving us a pacifier to chew on while we wait for SA.

    At some of the town hall meetings we were shown pictures of SA stuff. This means that there have at least been some consept drawings made for SA. I guess that doesn't mean much when you consider the other ultima stuff that has been canceled over the years, but at least some of the content from some of the canceled ultima stuff has trickled into UO. Some would argue all that mechanical stuff shouldn't have, but that's a different subject [​IMG]

    So anyway... I suspect SA is further along than most if not all players realize. The devs are probably keeping it hush hush so that players aren't rushing them to release it before it's properly tested.

    I expect UO to be better game when SA is released. I suspect that by the time SA comes out the devs will have enhanced more existing content just like they did with the virtue dungeon artifact drops, doom and the dragons we got a glimpse of by accident. I think the direction the devs are taking UO is generally a positive one and I'm excited about it.

    In the mean time, I'm building characters like crazy to try to be ready for it.
     
  27. Terraxia

    Terraxia Guest

    Wanting SA to succeed being KR only is asking for the 2D client to be removed. For 2D to continue, SA must fail as a KR only expansion and be made 100% 2D compliant.