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What now?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Eht/Longbow, Oct 5, 2008.

  1. Eht/Longbow

    Eht/Longbow Journeyman
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    Ok, so if my sampire is now soon to have his head removed, what is left besides my tamer to kill Irks, Cu Sidhes and Miasma ect.

    I know I can do all those with my tamer, but it sure gets boring.

    I take it back though, I can't kill Irk with my Sampire, even with a top end suit, maxed out skills, and lots of time and practice.

    So when will a plain old swordsman template be viable fighting high level mobs? I know any time I use a melee dexxer template I do ok, all the way up till the monster realizes I'm hitting it then I get the 1 2 knock out! So what am I missing? Meleers can't do anything in pvm.
     
  2. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    when was the last time you tried using a stealth herding mage? there are so many different combinations to try out! its up to you to find the spark needed to find what works for you...(how many combinations can you come up with using all the skills available to you?)
     
  3. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    Yea I see this as an issue too...I mean I can key all the peerless solo (except Prism) with my tamer or with a Gimped out Sampire that's fine but at times I have trouble finding people willing to key peerless with me. I rarely do them alone though I'm sure a few of them I could but I do enjoy tanking for the tamers Greater Dragons :p
     
  4. Eht/Longbow

    Eht/Longbow Journeyman
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    Actually, I have used a stealth herding mage, I used it to lure squirrels for my tamer.

    I have tried a lot of stuff out, but nothing survives, and every time I find anything that will survive it gets nerfed.

    I have a Fencer/Ninja/Stealth, but it can't kill anything. Poisoning is stupid in pvm, what else is there?
     
  5. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I very much understand this argument. A few years ago, a swords parry dexxer would be good enough to face all challenges. However, EA decided to put in more high-level content for the experienced players. Which automatically lead to people trying to improve every tiny bit of their character with immense effort in order to SOLO them.

    That's where the real problem lies: The lack of communities. Originally, you are NOT SUPPOSED to solo an Irk or any high-level monster. Finding good company is very difficult these days, even if you join a guild. And therein lies the real problem of UO: Lack of new players!
     
  6. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Killing Irk or Miasma without a vamp-form, while challenging, isn't impossible. Since I dropped my samurai-vampire in favor of a more team-oriented template, I could still do everything short of the peerless itself solo (Except Travesty, I can still kill her). In fact, with the right technique, key collecting is relatively easy. The problem I have is crowd control, or separating the monsters for easier pickings. For example, my samurai can kill Irk on his own (Luminous rune blade makes it pretty easy), but Irk and any other named mob in the weald kills me nearly every time.

    Any of my templates (necro-mage, weaving-mage, archer, samurai, tamer) can kill Miasma with little trouble. Removal of curses, curing poisons and healing with confidence are key to Miasma while playing the samurai.

    Besides, while the sampire template has been weakened, it's by no means dead. Maybe you should try adding 99 necromancy to your template in place of 34 THEN tell us that your chosen style is now worthless?
     
  7. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    Am I missing something? My Weaver-Mage has no trouble with any of these. Paragon Cu can be a problem I guess - but only if I sneeze or something and stop moving long enough to get eaten. :p

    Sampires aren't gone. The fix to forms only means they will have to Stay at 99 necromancy to stay Vamped. Real Sampires already play that way, and successfully solo every peerless with it. (I've gone along to watch them do all but Grizzle and Pyrox)
    The change only means that the Gimpires who use the ability to stay vamped with 20s necro so they can keep massive DPS in gear and tactics/anatomy will have to EARN it the same as those already playing fair.

    Tamers? How many peerless have you ever seen a tamer solo? Honestly seen it Yourself, and not via some cheat like was being used on Travesty. I can only say 2.

    The idea of a character able to run at maximum DPS in gear in addition to vamp form defeats the purpose of skill caps alltogether.
    Some of the recent posts have pointed out how far beyond the skill cap we can go via items (tho many of them are ignoring the fact that running around in such an outfit would be rediculous since their resists would be so low they couldn't fight anything).

    IMO they need to do one of 2 things to really FIX all of this mess.

    #1 - Make +skill items work like crafting talismans granting +% rather than actual skill points.
    #2 - Allow +skill items to work freely, but enforce the 720 skill cap so that +skill items do not take you beyond that point.
     
  8. Fink

    Fink Guest

    That's my main!! :D
     
  9. cucujanu

    cucujanu Guest

    Could you please tell me what sense +skill would make if they cannot go beyond the skillcap?
    nobody would need them then be course you just skill it real to 720.
     
  10. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    The monsters you named can be soloed without a "Sampire" or a tamer.

    Furthermore...And this is what I really don't get...You do realize that you can still play a Sampire, you just need to actually have Necromancy on your template.

    All the change means is that you can't have the advantages of Necromancy without the disadvantage of having to actually have the skill in a significant amount.

    -Galen's player
     
  11. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    WoW, I can't believe there are this many people that use the gimp template to complain about it.

    I also can't believe that there are people out there who feel they can't find a guild who is willing to do such things with them. (I for one have a guild and we do a large variety of things everything from PvP to PvM, Peerless to Fel, Doom to Role-play and we do it ALL for FUN!) Blows my mind.

    I feel bad that other folk don't have or can't find a guild that they feel comfortable with, at home, and feel glad to be a part of like I do. I know RP isn't for everyone but I know it's for me..... I don't play a gimp sampire.... I do play a gimp Stealth archer.... but that's been his way since he began life on sosaria.... some 3 years ago... I've played a number of different skill templates but never actually gone out and used the "latest" gimpplate. I play to have fun and fun for me is Role-play, from my stealth archer to my Demon, and from my elven healer to my Knight Dexer.

    I can hunt with either a dexer, my archer or my Tamer makes no difference to me, what makes the difference is how many of my friends join from my guildmates, to members of my alliance to just members of the community of Role-players all are welcome to join in either peerless or Doom. Perhaps you should quit spending so much time alone and start looking seriously at joining a guild and bring your skills and knowledge with you and improve a community.

    In my opinion the DEV team would look at more than just the Sampire and not only nerf the heck out of that but re-design these peerless because obviously their idea is flawed..... The Peerless were MEANT to be a GROUP activity NOT a Solo one..... so if you're complaining you won't be able to SOLO them anymore that just means the DEV team is heading in the RIGHT direction.

    It's well with my belief that champspawns, Dragons, and many other things are NOT meant to be solo'd either...... and NEVER should be. I think it's high time UO turned away from the SOLOists game again and back to a COMMUNITY game....... after all it is a MMORPG... and it's meant to be a COMMUNITY.

    I want to go back to group hunts where a whole guild could go into a dungeon and be CHALLENGED, back to when the Blacksmiths could ply their skills at the Forge in Brit and people ACTUALLY needed them. Back to events where folk worked together for a common goal.... Saving the Kingdom.... That's my dream.

    [​IMG] Please click my hatchling and help it to mature to adulthood. Bel'la Dos (Thank you)
     
  12. What it's meant to be and what it is are 2 immensely different things. With a relatively small playerbase spread across multiple shards, solo play has become more a requirement during non-prime time hours and less a choice.

    As far as what's meant to be solo'd and what isn't, that's purely opinion. I don't recall any Dev ever saying that anything specifically HAD to be done by groups.
     
  13. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    Certain tamed animals need to take up all the follower slots. Tamers need a good nerf since this "sampire" issue just became an issue all of a sudden
     
  14. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Not to worry, the tamer "balance" was promised in nearly the same breath as the form changes (Two town halls ago, I believe).

    So it's coming.
     
  15. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Hearding for follower slots whose with me!
     
  16. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    The ability to Change your skills on the fly.
    Eg : you have 650 points of REAL skill tied up, and use jewlery/gear to switch around what the other 70 points are in at any given time.

    But I still think the best choice would be to simply make it all +% bonus rather than +skill, since it would solve all of the issues at the same time, except the use of soulstones.
     
  17. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    If you just can't handle not going Sampire ... try this: Archery, Tactics, Anatomy, Healing, Bushido, Necro and of course some Chiv. Use apples, remove curse, pots, etc.

    Also, a plain old Parry/Dexer can kill all those things easily. You might have to back off a bit and go back in occasionally, but my husband does it all the time on his Parry/Fencer (and did it when the char has swords, too).

    It seems to me that your issue may well be that you want to be able to stand there toe-to-toe without casting all the spells available to you and without having to use some (brain) tactics. That's a shame.
     
  18. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Let's see... Any other competent character?

    I can kill Miasma with my mage, with my Paladin/TH (that keeps 200 points in Cart & LP full-time) and even my SMITH (120 Blacksmith, 100 mining, then is a 120 Macing Paladin with the rest of his skill points)!

    Cu's are harder, but only because of their environment. Bards can do them better than anyone, with provo, but a warrior type with peace & music can kill them too.

    Irk's a nightmare for any skill template. Typically, if I HAVE to try to kill irk solo, I have him follow me back through the desert, to the champ spawn, and let the pixies (and any dryads that locked on him) beat him down, THEN start working on him after he falls below half health (and then only if all the dryads are dead - stupid peacing). Bards can also provo Cus onto the Irk.
     
  19. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I have a sampire, and never found use for much more than not being poisoned.....big deal, I can live without that. What I see here on the forums is alot of "gimpire" crying.

    Use the skill, is it that tragic?? (remember, it's an online game)
    I have always, always, used logic, thinking and tactics for any given situation.

    Hell, my chef can beat thses named critters.:lick:
     
  20. gjohnson5

    gjohnson5 Guest

    I always found guile worse then Irk.
    I've solo'd irk in the desert areas with just my warrior
     
  21. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Using a sampire (the nerfed template) did take logic, skill, tactics, thinking, etc. Or at least killing anything harder than demons did. For low end stuff it was extremely easy to afk kill things, but really any template can do that. :/
     
  22. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    I see nothing wrong in being able to solo something difficult. If I wanted group play I'd go play WoW or EQ. Way back when, the more difficult things to kill were Lich Lords and Ancient Wyrms. And you could still solo those back then.

    I'm still going to play my sampire and rock it. A slight template change, but still gonna rock it just to **** you people off who complain about sampires abusing game mechanics and how it's a gimp template.

    It's not always easy to get a group of people together to go to Doom or kill a Peerless. Sometimes playing schedules are different and you don't have that luxory of 3+ people to help you.

    I'd rather have the spoils to myself, or with guildies, than have to roll for 2-3 decent items with 10+ people. Waste of time.

    If I wanted to socialize like that i'd go bank sit or play Second Life.
     
  23. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Guess what? Alot of us couldn't give two hoots if you play a Sampire while either keeping the items on or having the real skill needed. You are not the one that was targetted here. It was the people who did not take any of the negatives (either keeping the items on or using up real skill points) along with the benefits that really **** people off.

    On solo'ing peerless. I don't care if you can or can't. If you put in the investments (see above) to use that template to do it, and you have taken the time to learn the tactics to do it, good for you! I don't do solo ... I do 2 man (because I play with my husband). Some people don't like that, either, but we work hard, and earn those items with our insurance gold!
     
  24. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    To me this change seems very minor and I dunno why the devs are fixing this before many other things. There aren't that many sampires that actually do solo Peerless. At least not on my shard. I don't see this hurting the economy or game compared to other things that are going on.

    Who cares if a sampire can solo Doom. So can a bard, a regular chiv/dexer, a tamer and a couple other templates.

    Like Ailish said, if someone has invested the time and effort to learn to play a template to it's full potential, why penalize them because someone else can't do the same?

    Sure it's kinda silly to put on all the necro items, then take them off once the form is casted. What about necros that swap over taming skills to bond with a bake kitsune, only to stone those skills later once it's bonded and go back to their necro ways?

    The market is more flooded with runics than Peerless items that come from VERY few Peerless solo'ers. Most of the sampires i've seen only do the mini-bosses. And that's not that great of loot. And there's plenty of templates that can solo that.

    I don't see what the big fuss is here about changing the way it is. Like I stated before, this is a way for people to get good items by themselves if they don't have TIME to find a group to go hunt with. That's why I like UO so much and keep coming back. I don't have to sit around for 30 minutes finding a group sufficient enough to go kill something big. That's why I quit EQ 3 times, that's why I don't want to play WoW.

    UO Is great that there is stuff you can solo and get good loot, or you can party up and get good loot.

    Dunno why people complain about this when someone can just as easily run two accounts and solo Mel. I've seen it done. I was there on my bushi/archer. We killed Mel in about 8 minutes. Yehaw.

    I think playing a sampire is a rush because you're constantly on the edge trying to stay alive and kill the monster before it kills you. For some that's why they play. It's an actual challenge. Beefing up the Peerless bosses is only going to create more complaints.

    For those that think playing a sampire is that easy, make one and find out. There's tactics involved, and it takes a lot of money or luck in order to get a semi-decent suit and more important a good weapon.

    I think this nerf is completely lame.
     
  25. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    Ugh. The big issue is NOT that those things can be solo'd. Why everyone got that into their minds I don't know! Who gives a flippin hoot if you can solo it. I sure don't, and those that do are reacting knee-jerk. No matter what template, it is a ton of work to solo, or even 2 man, that stuff.

    The iss is this. I cannot put on a Hunter's Headdress, bump my Archery up 20 to get better HCI and DCI, then take it off while keeping that benefit and put on some Mace and Shields for HLD and better resists. I can't toss on a Mark of Travesty for some Magery and Eval, get the damage output and non-fizzles of having them at 120, then take the mask off and put on a HoM instead while keeping the benefits.

    YOu point to Necro's who soulstone Lore off after bonding a bake. TBH I didn't know people did this, and to my way of thinking, it falls into the same category. Their pets should unbond if their Lore falls below X (say 80 real skill - discord not included). Again, a (regular) tamer can't do that. They have to keep the Lore to use the pets.

    Plain and simple - people who use such tactics are using loopholes. I have zero respect for someone using such things. To my way of thiking, people who use loopholes to get around the balancing factors of the game are, in fact, exploiting in the actual sense of the word, and are not really earning their kills.
     
  26. Stigmatas

    Stigmatas Babbling Loonie
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    What now? Adjust your template. As usual dexxers get nerfed while tamers get the easy button. Dexxers have gotten several nerfs over the last few years that I could rattle off the top of my head, while tamers get.....900+ fire breathing meatshields. Don't give in to the easy style of play. People who know how to play UO and like challenges keep on playing dexxers.

    I will not go into specifics because I will not fall to the same level of the nerfherders and gloat. Plus the fact it has become belief that in depth discussion of "certain" templates may have been a cause of the nerf. All I will say is that in three days I have adjusted and am doing the same things I was doing on my "main", dexxer. All the same things we were doing before can still be done. All this pre-emptive to the "nerf" LOL.

    This is the yearly dexxer nerf. Now this winter tamers will get equipment slots to put on our 900+ meatshields that will increase their output and make naked ladies drop automatically into their bank box. Unfortunately a lot of UO players have moved on for years now to other games that respect people who use swords and armor in a medieval setting. Go figure!
     
  27. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I'm sure I won't be needing the naked ladies, if they can even fit in my tamers' bank boxes. Do you have an address I can send them to so you may enjoy them?

    :lick:
     
  28. Heh, you know how to get hold of me. Send em my way! :D
     
  29. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Skill check is performed when casting the spell. Same as magery spells, chiv spells, other necro spells, bushido spells, ninjitsu spells, spellweaving spells. When using a skill, the check is performed when USING THE SKILL. You use the skill when you cast the spell/perform the skill, then you can get rid of the skill and the effects remain.

    If you're killing a monster and your tactics or anatomy drop for some reason, does the monster get healed? No.
    If you craft an item and you take off the talisman that you used to make it exceptional, does it revert to normal quality? No.
    If you tame a dragon and take off taming jewelry, does it disappear/go wild? No.

    I can do this all day. Point is, skill check is performed WHEN CASTING THE SPELL/USING THE SKILL, not after. If it's performed at all times for a couple spells, make it the same for all things that require skill. If the skill drops even for a second (with the exception of discordance and faction stat loss) the benefits disappear. With ALL skills/spells/items. Don't just nerf one class while favoring another, BALANCE it.
     
  30. Eht/Longbow

    Eht/Longbow Journeyman
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    I have a Ninja fencer, samurai/chiv/archer, pure mage. and a mage/tamer. When I made my Samurai Dexxer I wanted to build the toughest warrior type template I possibly could. The thing is no matter how much I tweak the template a character using a sword all around sucks killing anything higher level.

    I've seen people talk about soloing things and what not, I don't care really, I just don't want to get killed the moment the monster starts attacking me. Also a thought about group fighting, I've found I die exceedingly more often in a group than when I'm alone; granted you can kill stuff a lot more powerful but still there is always some kind of collateral damage that someone pays for eventually when you have a group.
     
  31. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Bigger and better monsters with no increase to hit points have created this problem. It's not going to end either because that would upset too many systems. The low HP pool of UO holds it back in sooo many ways it's not even funny. We can have no true tanks in this game because of the open ended skill system and pvp.
     
  32. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Phantus makes a good point. Creatures have been enhanced w/more skills + higher HP and more damage output... Warriors used to be able to tank the higher end stuff in game... Then AoS and all sorts of other crap was introduced... leaving warriors in the dust. Just about any other similar game, a tank/warrior has massive HPs for a reason. They're a meatshield.

    UO is a lot different now... and by taking away this 'exploit' of getting around not having to have the real 99 skill points in necro kinda hurt one of the good tanking templates that you can have in UO. Not just for the ability to solo high-end stuff. But if you want to fight in Doom as a warrior you have to have something similar, same with using a warrior at a champ spawn (which you rarely see) Yeah it's possible, but a pita.

    I can see why they are taking it away. Complaints about 'abusing' the system... but out of all the other forms of abuse, I don't see this as problematic as the others.

    UO would need a face lift if they were ever going to make tanks in UO what tanks typically are.
     
  33. Eht/Longbow

    Eht/Longbow Journeyman
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    Exactly, it's not that I used the vamp form as a way to solo peerless bosses and used it as an exploit, but it was a bandage for the already broken system. Warriors plain and simple don't have a chance in peerless type fights. If you can't leech life in every hit, lay a bandage every 4 seconds, and chiv heal yourself every spare time you have the mana, you can't fight anything because keeping those measily 100 - 110 hit points up high is rediculous. Most large monsters have 5x to 50x your hit points, and many can one hit kill you without breaking a sweat.

    Sorry my responses are slow, college eats up my time these days.
     
  34. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
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    This is a load of BS. One, the removal of the loophole only hurts those that are unwilling to look for better gear to go with their + skill stuff, and to have to add a few more points to their necro skill to make up for the loss of the book.

    Second - I can tank just fine in Doom with a NON-necro warrior. Heck, even tho my char is a LJ, most of the time I use a Beserker's Scyth on the DF, so I am not even getting Mana Leech and DI. Dexers do great in Doom ... better than tamers, mages, and bards, tbh.

    Champ Spawns you are spewing another load of crap. I see dexers there all the time - and use one - and NONE of them are Vamp Form users. I see Bush/Archers using magical shortbows and hit area effect bows, I see Necro/Dexers (who have 120 SS and 50 Necro real skill!) in wraith form swinging Soulseekers (even for undead spawn!), and Bush/Swords chars running Soulseekers.

    I personally use a LJ'er running a Blaze of Death for first and second level spawn, Soulseeker for 3rd and 4th (except Neira, which I use a different radiant scimtar) and an Ornate Axe to kill the champ. Not a drop of Necro on the character. I can do the entirety of a spawn alone, except for the champ on some of them, where I need a healer for expediency rather than having to step back (and since I have a protector, anyway, they may as well heal me). *Special Note - I would need a different character (archer) to kill Rikky. I usually stand as protector on that spawn*

    @ Ender ... you keep arguing and arguing, and fail to realize that very few people are going to agree with you. It was a loophole, an exploit. Do not pretend you are so dense that you didnt know that from the get-go. They made the fix consistent across the board - not just Vamp Form, but ALL forms will require the same thing. You will still be able to use the same template, you are just going to have to find better +skill jewelry and better armor to go with your Midnight Bracers. You will probably have to endure putting a few more points into the skill as you can't hold a book and a sword at the same time.
     
  35. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Ailish, I didn't say it was impossible to use a dexer in those situations, just more of a pain and you gotta have the right equipment.

    I know a bush/archer does awesome most places. Archers aren't tanks though, they're more like a kiter.

    Looking for better gear also entails more $$ or really good friends who give or sell for cheap.

    All i'm sayin is that Vamp form gave dexers one more way of staying alive. People will adapt to the new change and go on soloing. Ya it's going to take some minor tweaking, but it's doable.
     
  36. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    I, for one, applaud people who can solo hard stuff.

    I take pride in the fact I was able to toe to toe Paragon Dragons when they came out.

    People who have worked hard, and have the right template, should be able to take on stuff that less versed people cannot.

    The ONLY thing I took exception to was any player being able to have the skill's benefits available AFTER taking off the skill itself, or the items that gave the skill, to avail the player of up to 120 OTHER skill points, they WOULDN'T have had, without such a "Rule Bending" oversight, on the part of the Dev Team.

    Period.

    Spin it however you want.

    To Ender...your argument of "Does The Item Come Undone When You Take Off The Crafting Talisman? No." has no bearing.

    Unless the very moment you change ANY skill on ANY character, EVERYTHING they EVER did is COMPLETELY reversed, IMMEDIATELY.

    That is just silly.

    Now...let ME put on enough Taming to get me to 120, THEN let me Soul Stone ALL my Taming Skill, and THEN let me control Cus and GDs LIKE I STILL HAD IT ALL ON, AND add back my Discord...and OK...

    You can keep your Gimpire...

    Sound Fair? I thought not...or worse yet...you actually AGREE to something so silly.

    Sheesh.

    Sampires are fine, and if their maker is able, they SHOULD be able to solo things.

    GIMPIRES are :loser::lame:

    And needed fixed, IMO.
     
  37. Ailish

    Ailish Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

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    If we take the archer out of the equation, I am not sure what you mean "right equipment". I, and all the other dexer spawners I see, us regular PvP equipment. 70's or near suit with nice mods. I would not DREAM of PvM'ing in less than a PvP suit, in fact. But that suit is not real special ... RBC, Legs of Bane, Folded steel. THe rest is just MR 2 and maybe some +Dex leather armor. I guess all that seems totally normal to me - and to anyone else who PvPs (thus would be at a champ). I dont really see a Soulseeker as special equipment ...

    Anyway, my point was, I have never once, on Napa or Atlantic, seen a Vamp dexer at a Champ Spawn. You are too likely to die at a champ, and would not want to carry a bunch of extra insured stuff around with you! I may have seen a few in Doom, but mostly I dont.
     
  38. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Right equipment...the arties you listed can be hard to obtain and not everyone has the $$ to fork out. And finding good armor w/MR2 can also be difficult at a decent price w/good resists. Just saying that it's not all that cheap to everyone to make a good dexer suit to be viable to spawn with.

    But anywho, there's always tweaks that can be made to keep the sampire around and still effective. Just takes the right items and some creativity.
     
  39. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest


    Heh gonmna jump in here for that comment. We should do it for all skills now that sounds fair balanced cause everyone can do it!! Imagine the miriad of templates being created the Freedom!!!! The Freedom to choose! Long live Freedom!!! Everyone likes freedom right?