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What SHOULD have been done with the Abyss.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Morgana LeFay (PoV), May 2, 2010.

  1. People know that I am no fan of a split world (Tram/Fel), but since we have it, I think the devs should have done the following when they opened the Abyss:

    - Reds would have been offered a reprieve. They could go freely to and from any facet.

    - The ones that continued to murder after the reprieve would have been condemned to the Abyss.

    - Fel would no longer be a PvP area.

    - The Abyss would be full open PvP with no consequences (I mean, you are already condemned to hell right?) And full looting, no insurance.

    - Only reds would be able to place housing in the Abyss, and that would be limited to pre-made styles that could not serve as turret houses. These houses would look like prison cells.

    This way, those that wanted to go and get their new uberness in the SA areas would have to suck it up and deal with a little risk.

    What is the point of having the Abyss if it is just another goodie-two shoes area? rolleyes:

    Go ahead...flame away.
     
  2. hungry4knowhow

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    wow.....this is about to get HOT! Have you been drinking?
     
  3. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Umm... No.
     
  4. Vaelix

    Vaelix Guest

    "This way, those that wanted to go and get their new uberness in the SA areas would have to suck it up and deal with a little risk.

    What is the point of having the Abyss if it is just another goodie-two shoes area?"


    An Abyss does exist like this.. Its called Siege Perilous, you know, the place that you dont play.
     
  5. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I spent roughly $300 upgrading accounts for SA.

    If the expansion had been offered with the conditions you presented, I would have spent $0.
     
  6. sablestorm

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    In our guild fiction about the Abyss, we write this tale about how the Abyss was originally a haven for the followers of virtue who sought a refuge from persecution at the hands of a great evil. Their most prized artifact was the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom which was stored therein.

    Years later, Mondain, mindful of the threat of the virtues to his rule, destroys the protections that were laid on the underworld realm. His minions were unleashed within and it was corrupted, though the Codex of Ultimate Wisdom lay hidden away, forever beyond his grasp.

    Thus it isn't a hell in our fiction, but rather a corrupted place that was once a refuge of goodness. That is why one can still find pockets of goodness in there like the Silver Sapling and the pixies and fairy dragons.
     
  7. Zooithion

    Zooithion Crazed Zealot
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    No thanks
     
  8. Freelsy

    Freelsy Babbling Loonie
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    pwnd :lol:
     
  9. Hey, talk the devs into giving us more than 1 character slot, and I will.
     
  10. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Seige Perilous has AoS befouling it and a weird ruleset. <shrug>
     
  11. I'm sorry.
     
  12. I still think it would have been cool. I fully understand that bulk of the playerbase and I disagree on a great many things, but the Abyss...as I have always understood it...was supposed to be a place of Chaos and such.

    Oh well...typical responses for Uhall so far.
     
  13. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    That would mean I couldn't raid spawns anymore :(
     
  14. Vertex

    Vertex Guest

    So that means reds won't exist to raid Champ Spawns/Harrowers anymore?

    No risk vs. reward?



    I think this would be nice, but not with the way the current Abyss is designed.

    Reds would just chokepoint the staircase down, or the eastern entrance from the Tomb of Kings.
     
  15. Good point. I didn't think about that.





    Another good point...although that could have been changed if this was done upfront.
     
  16. You mean Champ Spawns?

    Again, I didn't think about that. Fel needs to remain PvP.
     
  17. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    you ever seen all those threads about power scrolls in tram? yea... ppl would complain alot unfortunatly
     
  18. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Keep it simple and split. Simply make a fel version of underworld and abyss where the resources are doubled. Eg monsters will drop 2 essences at a time and renowned has a bonus chance for arty drops. Imo this way keep prodo shards simple, people who wants everything but don't want any risk can do it in tram while people who are willing to put up with the risk gets more.
     
  19. Totally missed the point eh?
     
  20. Apparently.
     
  21. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I stopped reading at this point. This pretty much would make the Abyss a playground for a small number of griefers and mass-murderers.

    As much as I dislike the Trammel/Felucca split, I am quite disappointed about the lack of new ideas coming from those who wish back the "good old days" (which were nothing but "griefer's days").
     
  22. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    How much Space do you need to Role Play a red? rolleyes:
     
  23. Oh-nos...you mean you might actually lose something??

    (Btw...your avatar here is a Pirate. Consider that for a moment. Doesn't a pirate take things that don't belong to him or her?)

    rolleyes:
     
  24. I have no idea...I have never been a red. I just understand the difference between a challenge and easy-mode.
     
  25. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Horrible ideas.
     
  26. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I gave you an honest answer and you gave me a smart-ass answer. We're not off to a good start here, Morgana....
     
  27. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    I love ya to death Mr Pike but honestly the most grief comes from those who pvm in trammel. There's a general attitude among pvmers that you don't see in Fel.

    Edit: I should say that I am not a fan of Morgana's idea either, but to say that it would be a playground for griefers.... well it's already that.
     
  28. It Lives

    It Lives Lore Master
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    The game is easy as (you) make it .

    Hang out with people who challenge themselves.

    Its already done, the best you can hope for is exclusive fel content sometime in the future, or a classic shard, which has been kicked to Death.
     
  29. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    *checks* yup, I still 'effin :heart: you
     
  30. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    not sure why I am apparently the only lucky person in UO. but I did a lot of PvP and PvM back before tram and during tram. yes I ran into grief tactics, but you do everywhere in the game. But I think people are forgetting Fel only was not that big of a deal around those times. You learned to adapt, you learned to play safe. I had more problems hunting in tram than I ever did in fel. At least in fel if someone was griefing you, you could actually take care of the problem (the person) in tram you had to page a GM and wait 17 years for a canned reply.
     
  31. HD2300

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    It is because the goodie-two shoes are a massive majority in UO, and without them paying to play, EA would shut down all their UO servers.
     
  32. maroite

    maroite Guest


    ... Why would murderers be running around free in the Abyss in the first place? Bad humans would just be chained/tortured until the ends of time. You wouldn't have any freedom.

    Not to mention if things had been done the way you described it, the majority of players probably wouldn't have bought SA and the entire expansion would be a complete flop.

    Also its not a goody-two shoes area, as last I checked the demons and other denizens which inhabit the abyss NATURALLY are pretty evil. (Yes, I consider pixies to be pretty evil little things too...)

    Oh! So you understand the current mode reds have? Easy-peasy mode? Yeah... 90% of reds today could have never played reds pre AoS. Also, things like open pvp and full corpse looting do not make games challenging...

    So... it seems you're all for making the game more "challenging" for Blues, but its a little lack luster on the red side.

    Challenge would be adding pvp to the abyss, but if a red dyes, a part of their evil soul is sucked into the lower levels of the abyss and they lose 20 points in all skills.

    I can play this game too...
     
  33. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I ran through there just to do it... wanna know what's evil? The fact your characters are now manipulated! grrrr

    I ran by where the one puzzle box is, I got too close and while my character was frozen in place telling me about some warning about being careful... I was killed by two things attacking me

    I got by some Balron looking thing, it said I was frozen in fear or something. 3 or maybe 4 spells were cast on me while frozen... dead

    I ran by those corpsers, teleported me to it and ate me... dead

    I mean, I know I am not 'geared' and I expected to die, but it was rather lame I died only three times, all because my character was frozen in place.

    /rant
     
  34. Derium of ls

    Derium of ls Slightly Crazed
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    I think it does actually. Even compare another item based game (World of Warcraft) on PvP servers people had a HELL of a time getting the gates of AQ opened on a PvP server, not as hard on a PvE. and that stands for even leveling your character. On a PvP server you are ALWAYS getting ganked while trying to level. it makes it much more challenging. Now if WoW was full loot also? That would be next to impossible to level ha.
     
  35. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    Haha ya the whole frozen in place thing sucks. There's no way to prevent it (that I know about) and even with all 70s you still have to just stand there frozen while things kill you.
     
  36. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Resist Spells reduces the Slashers terror. On my archer he only freezes her for about a second.

    Also, I fail to see how this is any different from PvP. I mean, the way to win in PvP is usually to cause the person you're fighting to be immobilized or hindered some how. . .
     
  37. maroite

    maroite Guest

    It doesn't make it more challenging. Getting ganked does not add any challenge to the game. All it adds is more time.

    If you get ganked by higher level people, or multiple people and really have no way of winning, how is that challenging?

    Or are you arguing that time = challenge? The quests in WoW are the same difficulty on every server. They don't become more challenging because some idiot level 80 wants to gank your level 20...
     
  38. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    :gun: Morgana LeFay
     
  39. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    [​IMG]

    Lord Chaos...

    :p ;)
     
  40. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Well, griefing tactics in Trammel are somewhat different. Some one can "steal my kill", so to say. Which basically means, someone can slay the monster I am fighting, and game mechanics will make sure I get my share of loot anyway. Or they can drag another monster towards me. But do I care? There are so many places in UO where I can go hunting, that I don't give a rat's arse about such "griefers". I just go elsewhere if they annoy me too much, and that's it. Most of the time, I hunt for the fun of it and not for a certain item.

    When someone can kill and loot you dry wherever you are, it is a different thing. It can be downright abusive. I'm all for a PvP challenge, including the possibility to commit crimes anywhere in Britannia and the risk to lose a couple of items. But not under the rules of old UO, where someone can commit as many crimes as he wants without a real consequence. It always leads to the same result: A handful of players ("wolves") who have fun "ganking" the others, and the mass of players ("sheep") who feel abused and annoyed.

    Because believe it or not - most of the "innocent players" suck at PvP. And to my opinion it is wrong that they can be victimized over and over again, because they simply will leave the game.

    (I won't even answer to Morgana, cause she gave up the philosophy of a constructive discussion a long time ago and retreated to post insults to anyone who has a different opinion... which is the majority.)
     
  41. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
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    The same philosophy can be taken in a pvp facet as well. Someone is griefing you by killling you repeatedly? Just go somewhere else. It's like those silly people who res over and over at the same healer even though someone is standing there repeatedly killing them.

    I do realize that a lot of the playerbase has no pvp prowess (my own is in question with certain groups of people.. lol) but that's not really what I was touching on.
    My main point was that there are jerks all over. For instance NBG won the warden gargoyle house and it wasn't the pvpers who griefed him repeatedly enough for him to revoke public access... it was the "trammies" who did so.

    Such people exist on both facets, in all playstyles.

    Like I said, I don't agree with Morganna's suggestion or idea, although I would have liked to have seen a "mirror" for this dungeon or more of a pvp arena/area aside from the added champ spawns. Because I don't consider hunting other humans as griefing ;)

    But yes I do know what you mean.
     
  42. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    See now, here's the problem...

    The game has become so sanitised and segmented, that even the thought of a non-PvP'er dying to a predominantly PvP'er, is simply too abhorrent to think about for a lot of players.

    I helped organise a joint guild hunt with two of the largest guilds on Great Lakes, to do the Primeval Lich spawn once. We gathered more than thirty players... more than three full parties... and we're shown the door by a team no more than five well organised red PK'ers.

    As soon as the PK's raided, most of our group, outnumbering the PK's by six or seven to one, simply fled. Well organised as the PK group was, they simply picked off the running players. I and and a few others stood and fought, but most simply gave up.

    It's probably one of the most embarrassing things I've witnessed in all my UO time. Players outside complaining they were killed, complaining they would have lost a lot of insurance gold, that the PK'ers were cheating... etc...

    If just half of those players had stood their ground, be they PvP'ers or not, the group would likely have seen off the reds, or at the very least, held them off and protected the main spawn area until its completion.

    Now I'm no great PvP'er by any means. My connection to Great Lakes was poor, I'm talking latency of over 400ms. But I did stand my ground, along with too few others. I just found it frankly shocking how so many players were more concerned at their "loss" or potential loss, than to face some actual challenge.

    Even more interesting to note, was those who attended, only accounted for less than one eighth of the overall numbers of the two guilds combined, who were usually online at the time of the hunt. Many simply didn't want to attend something that involved the Fel ruleset area, viewing it with almost the same distaste as handling a lump of turd with your bare hands!

    Perhaps it's just me and a minority of players who actually like a challenge I guess. Fighting only the same static creatures with the same limited AI, just gets tiresome after a while. I'm no PvP'er by any means. Far from it, but I just think the game has become too one-dimensional and that far too much, has been taken away from the challenge of the game.

    I don't want to play The SIMS ONLINE with monsters, where everything is nice and shiny, with cushions and nice carpets. My characters being killed every so often or losing stuff, isn't (or wasn't before the item dependency of AoS) a problem.

    Does nobody here want risk vs. reward any more? Just the reward?

    Shall we just sit here, hold hands and sing "Kum ba yah"
     
  43. Because the "goodie-two shoes" players make up the majority of the playerbase, and it's their clout that's looked at when it's time for new expansions. PvP'rs get a bone every now and then, and get boned every now and then, so you should be happy right?


    Now where did I leave that classic shard....rolleyes:
     
  44. You obviously don't run in my circles.
     
  45. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    It's an interesting idea, though. Sort of a state-of-nature zone.
     
  46. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    No, thats a stupid comparison. On Trammel or other places at least they're rare and don't follow you around in the areas. In Felucca, especially pre-trammel, it was almost anywhere you went you'd get ganked.

    That is another matter entirely and how did they grief him? The only grief tactics I can think of should be reportable to the GMs.

    The question isn't whether those people exist, its how much they're curbed by the rules.

    But generally it turns in to griefing if you don't have some clear seperation of PvP and PvM situations, which is why Felucca dungeons are mostly empty.
     
  47. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
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    We risk plenty and there's plenty of challenge in PvM.

    If I wanted PvP and get pwned by some l33td00d, then I'd play Counterstrikem now there's your skill based PvP.
     
  48. Yen Sid

    Yen Sid Guest

    No we don't, I will just take the rewards, hold the risk ;). And yes we shall, shall I start us off? "kumbaya..." :grouphug:

    :popcorn:
     
  49. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Tell me exactly where the risk is then?

    What exactly are you risking?

    When it's possible to solo even the toughest creatures, where is the challenge?
     
  50. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    Don't mind if I do.

    Horrible idea....great idea. Horrible for the Abyss. Great in the respect there needs to be open areas created that are more than just champ spawns.

    The problem with the Abyss as a PvP land is trammel players and money. EA as a company would be a fool to create a landmass that only appealed to 40%(my opinion, don't drag out graphs and charts on me people) of their players alienating the majority of their players. For this reason alone the Aybss could not be a open pvp area.

    Now, if they could create an open pvp area along side the next major expansion that has some purpose other than just another champ spawn that would be ideal. The best scenario would be a land that was an area with an entrance on ANY shard. Then players from any shard could converge for control of the land. Since we are not talking about Siege(yet...*waves to Kelmo & gang*) there is always the problem with items. Soooooo...you enter a gate and the on the other side you are naked. You find what you need to survive. When you return you have all the stuff you left with.

    Note this is not creating a new landmass. It's something different & the dynamics are always subject to change though.

    The point being you can't just ignore any large groups of current players when considering expansions. You must cater to those you current have and throw in something to bring back those you have lost. New players are too difficult a target for a game over a decade old.