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What's a better measurement of a guilds overall PvP skill...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Vexxed, Feb 16, 2010.

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What's a better measurement of a guilds overall PvP skill?

Poll closed Feb 26, 2010.
  1. 5 on 5 Mage Duel between guilds. (Wrong roof / Books Equipped / Only Magery book in backpack)

    28.6%
  2. WARRING each other & letting the SCORE speak for itself. Fights happen as they will.

    71.4%
  1. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
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    I'm wondering what the general consensus is on this topic... Given the following 2 choices which is a better measurement of a PVP guilds overall skill?


    1) A 5 on 5 Mage Duel on Wrong roof (books Equipped & only a Magery spellbook in your backpak)

    OR

    2) WARRING each other & having the "SCORE" speak for itself...?
     
  2. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    3) Is there any skill these days?
     
  3. Damien Softstep

    Damien Softstep Visitor

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    Whoever dismounts and uses the most pets...
     
  4. longshanks

    longshanks Guest

    you should have a third selection stating something like ''pct chance you will get a serious discussion on this thread.''

    a good topic and debatable yes but when's the last time anyone had a 5 v 5 pure mage only duel on wrong roof?
     
  5. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Neither. They test different things.

    If you want to know the "true" skill of a guild, you duel each one of them, then have group fights, then fight in natural settings (champ spawns, faction strongholds, etc.), both offensively and defensively.
    Then you'll have a pretty good idea.
     
  6. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    Your experience with a guild is what you make of it. Some Guilds don't PVP so the above choices don't count. There is more to being in a guild that fighting.
     
  7. Vexxed

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    Well.. this just started as some TRASH talking on our shards PvP thread... and it basically comes down to one side wanting a WAR and the other side refusing... (Basically the side that doesn't want to WAR uses the ability to run into houses after flagging as an excuse<you can do this to warred guilds>... even though their side has more houses, and in any REAL dungeon fight the houses don't even come into the equation.) The side that refuses to WAR swears up and down that a 5 on 5 MAGE dueling skills is the only measurement that counts, and my response is that the EVERY DAY REALITY of how fights happen matters more... You can be the best duelist in the world & still be a ****ty field fighter. Anyway discuss lol..
     
  8. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    Neither... not sure of a "real" way to test "real" skill in PvP short of sitting all the PvPers in the same room so they can all verify the same base and judge purely on skill.

    5v5 only tests the "best" 5 mages of guild. Not overall skill of the guild.

    Warring is even worse... people who are not involved in the war can interfere. I've seen THIS first hand. My guild warred another guild. The other guild showed up 50/50 on warring guild chars and non-warring guild chars. They finally broke the war when they starting losing the count and claimed "see the picture, we have 3 more kills than you, we win".rolleyes:rolleyes:
     
  9. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Depends on the purpose of the guilds. If the guild mostly just hops around Yew gate, then individual kill count would be the best judge. If the guild is for spawning, then that's the criteria. And factions for a faction guild.

    PvP is such a multi-faceted system that there's no single criteria by which you can judge this.
     
  10. I dont think either one shows the skill of a guild. War just shows who can get the most kills while others are afk or caught alone in luna.
    5v5 mage duels only covers some ppl in the guild.

    A true test of how good a guild is would be over a period of time. How well they do in the field and in chokes, as well as how well they can duel, etc.
    Its a number of things that make up a good guild.
     
  11. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    Why does it need measuring in the first place?

    Since there's no way to get anywhere near an accurate measurement of any one player's skill at anything in this game its a pointless exercise.
     
  12. Gildar

    Gildar Babbling Loonie
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    Ignores the following (among other) PvP skills:
    1. Using choke points to your advantage (dungeons)
    2. Using scattered obstacles to your advantage (open fields with trees/houses)
    3. Keeping good distance from your opponent (close when you need to be, far when you need to heal or delay)
    4. Communication with those who are not around at the time the battle starts
    5. Divide & conquer tactics
    6. Using non-mage skill templates


    Allows a lousy PvP guild to outrank an amazing PvP guild when...
    1. Lousy guild has dozens of members on when good guild has one or two
    2. Lousy guild is good at running away, but good guild has a few lousy members that are not good at running away
    3. Lousy guild gets lucky at the beginning of the war, and quits the war (or otherwise makes themselves unable to be attacked by the good guild) before the good guild has any chance to retaliate
     
  13. Vexxed

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    Beastmaster Said:
    Apparently it doesn't need measuring for you... but typically any contest is a measuring tool of sorts. I admit there's 10,000 different ways to measure PvP skill but you all have to Admit that

    "He who dies Most "Typically" isn't the winner".....

    As everything in UO is never clearcut I'll admit that there's lot of situations where killing or not being killed isn't the goal, but it's usually a large factor in acheiving the goal... I guess you can tell which option I prefer...

    WAR WAR WAR baby.... it's fun to keep score.

    PS.. if your silly enough to go afk in luna and die from a Warring opponent well then that +1 to your opposing guilds score directly relates to you being less than intelligent and paying the price.
     
  14. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest


    In UO, he who dies the most may not be the winner in UO, but they may be the honest player. It's evident to everyone that cheating is a HUGE part of pvp.

    Of course, there aren't any pvpers that fess up to being cheaters, but an awful lot of them claim to be victims of cheaters.
     
  15. popps

    popps Always Present
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    I would invite the 2 Leaders of the 2 Guilds to just fight each other, with only a generic robe on, NO ARMOR whatsoever, using the SAME ONE SKILLS, and the same exact weapon.

    And then settle the argument seeing whomever wins.

    Since they would be starting with the exact same template and dress/weapon only better combat ability would determine the winner.

    There should be a team of 3 referees.
    One for each Guild and a third referee who is absolutely above parties.

    Why ?

    To look closely and carefully the fight and see if anyone is using hacks/scripts (like speed hacks and such) to gain an unfair advantage.

    Should this happen, the victory should go to the other party by default.
     
  16. Vexxed

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    Beastmaster Said:
    lol Beast.... How about making your own thread with a more descriptive title.. Maybe something like


    Popps..... Why is it that "Stratics Legends" have to voice their opinion in EVERYTHING even when people know they shouldn't? I mean I gave you the options.... click one, but suggesting BAD ideas when you don't even PvP ??
     
  17. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    If you don't want to read contrasting views don't post stupid threads.
     
  18. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    As far as i can tell you are not a regular pvper, judging by your previous posts where you feel ps and harry should be farmabe in tram. So you probably dont know enough to somment on fel pvp exclusive topics.
     
  19. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Also he started a poll on general view for the comparison of the two. Of course people will go "I pick option 3" or "I pick option 82 and 97" but he offered 2 options you dont have to pick but when you do you pick one that's "closer" than than your ideal.

    It's a guild (the one insisted on NO WAR but 5v5 mage duel on wrong roof) that's constantly losing spawns to the other smaller guild (that supports a WAR).

    IMO "Real PvP" is what you do on daily basis. When is the last time you see your enemies doing a DSP and you ran in to raid them and by "RAIDING" you go there and start a VERBAL conversion and everyone switch to pure mage, and each side gets 5 pure mages and LEAVE DSP, and RECALL to wrong roof and settle it on the roof and whoever won gets the right to go back to DSP and continue doing the spawn? :lol: Yes it's very ******** and I agree.:coco:

    It all boil down to what you are looking for. However, dueling is anything BUT REAL PVP. Tell me in straight face that NO PLAYER OFFSCREENS EVER IN EVERYDAY PVP when you KNOW 5 mages ARE sync dumping you, and I will tell you in all honsty and in a very serious way with a bit of pithiness that you DO NOT KNOW JACK ABOUT PVP, and I will feel sorry for how noobie you are at PvP.

    It will be a good measurement of individual player skill but sorry people simply DO NOT do dsp with 5 pure mages and raid a spawn with 5 pure mages. And People arent ******** enough to leave spawn area so they can "settle it" on top of Wrong roof when a raid should happen.
     
  20. Kellgory

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    Set a time that both sides will have players on, and go to somewhere like Cove fel and war each other for an hour. Since your both in factions then you don't have to worry about blues healing them (unless they are also in factions). At the end of the hour, screenshot the results. No worries about running in and out of houses since that shouldn't be a factor unless they get a couple kills up and run away...then you could always screenshot an empty Cove.
     
  21. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Glad to hear that most people has the "similar" opinion about this matter. You wanted the skill of a "guild" then why would you bar out anything and everything but your own template (the mage only 5v5 is requested by a mage player, that the templates "allowed" he proposed is his very own template). :lol:

    I wont waste time and SS charges to make a "pure mage pvp" char that I know for sure that I will never play in "REAL PVP".
     
  22. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    5 v 5 mage w/ book it hand (#1) would be best with no items as you suggest, no fields, summons, strangle, maybe not poison either, no paralyze, no sleep, generally no curses other than to disrupt (weaken, clumsy, feeblemind), would probably be an interesting way to determine the best twitch players, but I'd assume a lot of these groups would settle for meteor/wither/fields.

    Duelists generally frown on anything outside of magery spells in a duel, which does limit most of the templates that exist today, but it also takes away most of the RNG which dilutes any way of measuring "skill." In that case, what is a 5 v 5 mage duel? 10 mages w/ wrestle and inscription (any scribe mages left)? Or would both sides agree, Mage/Eval/Resist, no movement as to avoid the use of wep/wres/parry, single target direct magery spells only, no curses other than 1st/2nd and no additional skill usage outside of passive skills like med and focus?

    Traditionally, though, duels are best when 1 v 1 ... a 5 v 5 duel in a set area or environment, such as a champ spawn, or better yet, a harrower (#2), would be the most realistic way to determine a PvP guild's skill. Harrowers are pretty much the most important part of the game, imo, although, some of the templates people run for factions, the niche templates, are pretty specific, and maybe then sigil protection is even more skillful than a Harrower, except, a Harrower is arguably much more valuable than a town in the short term.

    I think the bottom line, from this discussion, is to find PvP skill, the situation has to be artificial. Any skill/spell/etc that uses RNG cannot help determine "PvP skill" because the variance cannot yield accurate results, which is why people have, since forever, relied on Mage Duels to indicate user skill. In the case of a dexxer fighting a dexxer, why fight when all you need to do is stand next to each other, have one person flag, then see who the RNG picks to get the hits in first.
     
  23. popps

    popps Always Present
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    That astonishes me.

    I think a player can well think out of PvPers mainstream over the Powerscrolls' issue and still not be against PvP in this game at all. Actually, it could well be that changes to the current system could favour and improve PvP in the game, not harm it, but that's another story I do not want to touch here.
     
  24. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Out of the 2 options i would say No.1

    But in truth option 3 would be better.

    Option 3 is a 5v5, 2-3mages, 2-3 dexxers. No pets. No Hiding. Agreed templates to start with. This gives a broader range of "skill" and also gives a judge of how each team deals with a range of templates.

    Option 2 is the most pointless way of judging anything period!!!

    All option 2 promotes is ganking, hiding, pop shots, AFK kills, house hiding etc.

    It show NO MEASURE OF WHOM IS THE BETTER GUILD!

    All it shows is whos the better at getting 1or2 kills then logging of before a fight.
     
  25. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    You don't have to be an ACTIVE pvper to know that the cheaters dominant that arena. As to what I know or don't know, you may never know. As for harrys, I don't recall ever commenting on those, though I may have years ago.
     
  26. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    LOL...for months...these chumps.. Vex and WU..have been avoiding a 5 on 5 on Wrong roof. It puts them at a distinct dis-advantage, since their "crutches" are basically nullified. Every time one or the other tries a duel..they get grass root smelling crushed.

    What they love to do in war is go hang out in luna, and then log off or house hide when their numbers are not 2+ to 1 in their favor. LAWLS...

    Weak and pitiful.

    Play clean or gtfo... losers. :loser:

    :stir:
     
  27. Gowron

    Gowron Guest

    As the question was about a guild's overall PvP skills, I feel that neither option is truly indicative.

    PvP occurs in various forms from simple duels whether 1v1 or other kind of group or it is objective based.

    Of course, I prefer objective based. In my opinion there are 3 basic objective based PvP scenes: Champ Spawns, IDOC, Factions.

    Champ Spawns: Which guild/guilds walk away with the 120 scrolls?
    IDOC: Which guild got the bulk of the IDOC loot and/or replaced a house of the same size?
    Factions: Who ultimately controls the city/cities?

    Also, skirmishes occur, but usually the winner, as I see it, would be who's left standing vice who fled.
     
  28. Vexxed

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    Widow Said:
    Well Apparently Widow the Majority Agree that a WAR is a better measurement..... you can't argure with that it's a FACT at least so far. Answer me this Widow ?? When's the last time a Mage Duel on Wrong Roof went down to your knowledge eh??? What having problems recalling one?? For every 1 Fight on Wrong roof like that 5,000 other fights or MORE occur without rules wherever the opponents find each other.

    3 Reasons why a 5 on 5 is just unrealistic...

    1) Getting 5 Mages on for us at a predetermined time is a *****...

    2) Agreeing on the Rules at least with Trinity hasn't happened yet...

    3) The fight itself is unrealistic... None of you EVER fight just like that along with no one else on the shard.. so why's that a good measurement?

    PS.... I'd be one of the 5 but I know for sure as **** you woudn't so pls don't talk since you can't even play a mage. Also... I wasn,t kidding about 5 out of say 8 online at most being difficult, but on the other hand it's Trinity's sole decesion about a WAR...lol
     
  29. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    One reason why you won't do it:

    You're scared crapless.

    Your heal/ pot/ box scripts, client mods and speeder will be severely diminished in an enclosed fighting environment.

    And the posts here do not support your foolish and agreed upon idiotic notion.

    War just means you camp Luna in the hopes..and then log out.

    Loser..play clean or quit the game. :loser:

    :stir:
     
  30. Vexxed

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    Widow Said:
    DID he REALLY JUST SAY THIS ?? LoL!

    [​IMG]
    Because he also said this lololol....

    Widow Admits to Scripting


    Umm.. Hey Widow.. lol Point.... Set..... Match....
     
  31. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    LOL...you went to the wrong game again...(he makes this so easy)

    HUGE difference, in the context of the subject, between scripting for skill gains and farming over scripting for PvP. I do the former but never anything for PvP...you do BOTH. PLUS the client mods and speeder..or do you forget the conversations in vent?? Bahahahahaaaa

    Grade for Peon= F

    Good job chump... epic fail again. :stretcher: :loser:

    LAWLS!! Re-install the game, get rid of your chump gear or quit the game Peon. Pathetic.

    :stir:
     
  32. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Hmm thats interesting. Hypocrite at its finest.

    Widow you play nothing but archers why are you still here?
    And yes you guys lost most real world objective pvp which is the reason why your GM wanted 5v5 and making everyone to play his template. I dont script/cheat/exploit like you widow thats according to your own words. I am not training skills for hours and wasting SS frags to build a pure mage that doesnt work in real pvp.

    And trinity also puss out on OUR 5v5 challenge with our rules. She insisted that she wants everyone to play his template (which i dont care anyways he cant even play a mage right). And you? You have what? 4 stealth archers and dismount all kill noob... you know you wouldnt be in the 5v5 so why bother?

    Oh btw uninstalled your UO and play clean please. I dont think admitting to script/cheat/hack/exploit everything everyday and not getting caught is something to brag about. Learn how us legit players play and not relying on ILLEGAL 3RD PARTY PROGRAM to help you prepare your characters and quite possibly pvp.
     
  33. Widow Maker

    Widow Maker Slightly Crazed
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    Sorry WU chump...your mis-direction still doesn't work (that Jedi mind trick thing isn't really real... dumbass)..even in U-Hall...don't let your girlie panties get all bound up. :gee:

    The fact is that you girls refuse a pure mage duel...and have for months now. The rules set forth are the standard Mage duel rules and nothing more. :thumbup1:

    Everyone on Sonoma KNOWS the reason you girls duck and cover anytime something is brought out in the open..your group simply can not be found in the light of day, for everyone to see. :sad2:
     
  34. Ls Jax Ls

    Ls Jax Ls Visitor

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    It's simple to test what guild is better...see how many people they bring to a fight. The less they bring, the better they are.
     
  35. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Sigh, kiddies theseday. Someone provided an actual screenshot of you admitting cheating/hacking/exploiting/scripting everyday. And your reply is "insert any text". Why dont you try to get some evidence of how hes hacking? Like he did to you to show uhall how much of a hypocrite/liar you are on you hall.

    With your logic, i say all your guildies hack big time then they must in fact hack because i said so...

    With normal human being logic and for the sake of debate people tend to provide evidence. In this case you accused a player hacking because you said so, while him said nothing but posting an actual evidence of you admitting to hack uo on everything everyday. And unless people are as brain dead as you, you are the one thats looking real bad here.

    Also the OP wants a general view on this matter so its not biased. And the fact that the majority disagree with your GM's ideal of what "real pvp" is. You as a troll of course will jump in. I am not suprisied.
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    The guild that asks to 5v5 routinly outnumbers the other guild by 5 to 3 to 2 to 1 margin.
    As the op stated we peak at 8 and 5 on a good day. And not everyone has a pure mage. They can have any amount of people most of the time. They however do lose most of their spawns with more number thus the request to 5v5 while barring out most templates.
     
  37. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    LOL! You pvpers always show your true colors! What a bunch of @$#%
     
  38. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Sorry we enjoy 100% of UO. You only get half of it. The pampered side of it too of course.
     
  39. Vexxed

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    Beastmaster Said:
    My Favorite part about PvP is putting the stomp down on people who talk alot of Trash... I've heard many a foul mouth in Tram farmin Cavern of the Discarded & let me tell you it's sooo much more satisfying when you can just kill the person ...
     
  40. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    If pvp is half of your UO then you are missing out on alot of UO.
     
  41. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    English 101? 100% means all... and for someone who dont enter fel... yes like you said "You are missing out on alot of UO indeed".
     
  42. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    Peon, I have much respect for you man. No matter the odds I see you out PvPing. You and Kyle used to roll around and just wreck.

    You know as well as I do that SCAM does/has used illegal 3rd party programs for assistance for PvP. I know primarily because it was discussed in ventrillo while I was in the guild. Pot chugging/apple/box scripts. Certain speeder programs that I will not mention.

    I will also say that every guild I have ever been in there has always been someone who cheated in one way or anothe via a 3rd party program to gain an edge.

    Unfortunately to anwser your question, neither. The kills in Wars can be gained via large scale ganks. I know that is can happen as when Waka warred ZOG, they were only able to field about 50% of our numbers 80% of the time. There score was about 1/3 of what Wakas was in kills.

    Mage duels it is all determined by connection. I play a mage on Sonoma and LA. Unfortunately I will always be beat by the mage pinging 15 when I ping 60-80.

    I will admit it here and now. SCAM does win some. Waka does win some. Sometimes it even, sometimes it is not. Sometimes one side has alot of archer, sometimes more mages. Sometimes its 50% tamers.

    Just play and have fun man.
     
  43. Black Majick

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    If you dont PvP 50% of your time on UO, you are missing alot! :thumbup1:
     
  44. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    You said about massive number difference gank. Then what about our war with COP which is about double our size and we are winning by over double the kills closing to 1k kills? And you know better that waka do have a number advantages most of the time.

    We lost a little fight versus waka today in Yew. But it was 3 (and a blue thats starting to learn how to PvP) against 6 waka. We fought well we still got way more kills for the day but in the end when 2 of our 3 men team died side by side for charging into the 6 of them and got stated of course they will call it a victory. We had 5 deaths maybe versus about 8 to 9 kills if I remember correctly.

    You are right sometimes scam wins sometimes waka but we have won/tied all even number fights and have won "all" fights where the number is in our favor given that rarely happens against waka.

    Take the 3v6 we just had, if we were warred, we will be on the winning side for more head count. It's very easy for them to wipe us (thus they won) when we have to yet again fight them 1v2.

    Other than teamwork/skill waka do have advantages for the sheer number they can field (more mages/archers/tamers/stealthers than we do), so why not go to War?
     
  45. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    ROFL!!!

    This is just sad you must be a trammy guild whose moved into PVP with imbuing right??

    Must be, i cant see any reason why a PvP guild cant field 5mages...even if they only have 5 people on!!

    Any Decent PvP guild knows you need to have a decent core group of mages and all players should be at the very least adequate on a mage. How the hell you expect to take a harry without a good mage core??

    LAME EXCUSE!

    Why dont you take the duel...promplty lose and then ask for a rematch on temp vs temp.

    [Oh and your next excuse of rules not agreed...even lamer!!! Mage duels are and always have been one set of rules, well for as long as i can remember.]
     
  46. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

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    Hehe you really dont know jack about PvP. You know how many different rules these waka dudes came up with? They dueled in wraith form and necro with no pot no apple allowed again people's mage 5. What they say afterwards? "You guys didnt say necro is not allowed, only thing wasnt allowed was no pot no apple."

    1 set of rules of mage dueling?
    Ive seem ones that dont allow having wrestling, one that allow parrying, one that allows pots, some that allow necro, some do not. Some make you hold a spellbook, some that requires a sc lantern and even some that allow mounted. After SA there were mysticism spells allowed, some says no mysticism. Some uses mage weapon some requires you to not move a tile.

    You either dont know about dueling or you only "heard" about how PvP is. Maybe you are one of the guilds that came from Pac and got ran out so you hate our guild?

    72% of the people still agree with an all go "Real PvP" warfare. Just tell me one thing... when is the last time you raided a dsp from top of the wrong roof with 5 pure mages? :coco:
     
  47. Walkerboh77

    Walkerboh77 Guest

    want a true test?....then have all players of any guild that wants to be considered jump on a plane and land in a designated area...

    everyone meets....sets the rules....and then they kill each other irl :gun: ....last one standing wins :stretcher: (or everyone that's not an idiot ie the rest of us)



    ps. pvp is not skill based in this game



    /hits hornet's nest
     
  48. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    Standard mage duel has been for as long as i can remember.

    Scribe mages. Some use wrestle others dont, its a mute point because it means lantern and book.

    Why would i hate your guild?? I dont play on your shard, never have and never will. I enjoy PvPing with people who understand that mage dueling is the only real test of a persons skill. The only thing that can make a mae duel unfair is lag[and HPR which although frowned upon isnt condemned]

    Maybe you should leave your comfort zone of point and click pvp and attempt mage fighting. You might learn a thing or 2 about skill and honor.
     
  49. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    This is funny...you claim i dont know PvP...Then you claim that Real PvP warfare is being able to run into a house even after flagging, it sums up the kind of pvper you must be in one simple post.
     
  50. A Rev

    A Rev Guest

    For the most part i will agree with you. Most Pvp in game i point and click archers running the latest and greatest "upgrades".

    That being said...mages dueling is as close as you can get.

    LRC is capped
    LMC is capped
    SDI is capped
    HPR is capped.

    Anyone can now make an all 70's suit with 18mr. Mage suits are now so evenly matched now that the only thing to come into play making it unfair is ping.