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What's the point of imbuing?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by hawkeye_pike, Oct 4, 2009.

  1. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    As much as I like the idea of the Imbuing skill, I want to throw in a thought:

    Most crafters have already reached 120 Imbuing. With that skill level, you can make very good items. For example, rings and bracelets with +15HCI, +15DCI and a high Stat mod are quite common. It will not take long until everyone uses those.

    Now, what advantage does Imbuing bring in the big picture, instead of just pushing all items to a higher level, making standard items even more worthless? Has anyone considered that with such powerful items, the regular monsters (which are 90% of the game content) will be even less interesting? And the entrance barrier for PvP will be even higher for new players?

    Honestly, we have experienced the same thing when runic crafting was invented. Simple GM-made armor and weapons became totally worthless over night. Instead, crafters now have to expose themselves mindless repetitive tasks (BODs) in order to create decent equipment. Also, nobody goes to the old Anti-Virtue dungeon anymore, cause you can slay any Ettin with 2 hits.

    Honestly, I miss the days when skill counted something, and when casual players had the chance to contribute something useful.
     
  2. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    These statements contradict.
     
  3. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    The idea is to make people want to risk stuff more often, its much like when they made Val ingots/Barbed leather have close to Invul armour AR. People didn't care about ITEMS because they could easily get new ones. No one wants to risk an item in anyway that took them months to find/mils to craft. This is actually a way to make the game less item dependent even though you are still using them.

    Imbuing is a great addition and once people realize you can replace your items more often more people will try PVP, I mean we know we can't really lose stuff except to insurance bug which is enough to stop people from trying. Also if you can make stuff that puts you on a more even playing field then its a good thing.

    Your thing about killing an Ettin in two hits is kind of silly, I mean its an Ettin, they are on Haven Island for a reason you realize. Go further into that dungeon and try two hit kills on some of the stuff.
     
  4. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    Imbuing is proving *extremely* useful to me, yet at the same time, it's going to keep me busy for a long, long time (even ignoring item decay).

    Being able to plan out a suit and then set out to gather the resources to build it is far more entertaining to me than attempting to stitch together odds and ends. However, at the same time it's definitely not obsoleting high-end artifacts. It's creating a more interesting midgame.

    But I'm not sure what to say to the pangs of nostalgia you seem to suffer hawkeye. Moments of the past are like smoke - they were a moment in time, you can't hold them. I would have thought that recent additions would have improved things for you by creating lots of new niches and opportunities.
     
  5. Taylor

    Taylor Former Stratics CEO (2011-2014)
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    Imbuing means that you don't have to have an infinite supply of gold in order to have top items. In fact, many folks are willing to imbue items for free, if you're willing to put in the work farming the ingredients.

    In short, imbuing is the answer to your stated problem.
     
  6. Phaen Grey

    Phaen Grey Lore Master
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    And if anyone remembers when Draconi reverted the BoS nerf, and lowered the weight of gold, he also mentioned there would be a change coming to the loot tables. What low lvl mobs carry maybe changing when the loot is revamped.
     
  7. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    I think the devs missed an opportunity to make crafting great again.

    They almost got it right: New race that will need a lot of this new stuff, designable mods, and items that will need to be replaced -- but they didn't take it far enough. All imbued items should also have been cursed.

    Thank god for Siege.

    :thumbsup:
     
  8. Miriandel

    Miriandel Seasoned Veteran
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    I wholeheartedly agree with you on all points.

    When developers have no creativity, they create more powerfull items, so players can fight more powerfull monsters so they can gain levels so they can wear more powerfull items so... you get the WoW picture?

    That's ZERO creativity, you notice that kind of gamemaster when playing P&P RPG quite quickly and know you better not play with them never again.

    Boring.

    UO went the loot-centric way and lost what remained of it's soul.
    You can't even hunt legacy dungeons anymore with noobs, the first lich you meet kills you before you finished your first cast.
    Whose brilliant idea was it, BTW, to give magic casting monsters the ability to cast up to level 7 spells with no cast time and to poison more often than anything else?

    What UO needs is a creative designer, nothing more, nothing less.
    But hey! creative designers are not that common, look at all the failed games in the last years :)
     
  9. Splup

    Splup Guest

    I think Imbuing will lower the entrance barrier for PvP, since now everyone can get the almost perfect armor just by killing pretty low end mosters for special ingredients.

    About the rest I agree. Killing any basic mobs (except in SA which drop special ingredients) is useless. Actually I'v been killing Coils with 2200 luck and I find even that pretty useless. I thought that would be good way to get relics, but after looting approx 3300 items (that's pretty accurate) and getting approx 10 relics I felt kinda disappointed. And Coils are not even basic mobs I'd say, and if considered basic mob it's one of the highest end basic mob.

    So I tried killing Blood eles in Blood dungeon (for marties), after hours and hours getting 0 martie I changed to Balrons, getting 1 martie after a loooong while. 0 items looted gave relics.

    So this leaves us with peerless loot and mobs dropping special ingredients in SA.

    Either the arties in Virtue dungeons and Ilshinar should drop more often, or then they need to figure out a new catch why to hunt anything there. Also Tokuno needs something...
     
  10. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Agreed, but going from item centric back to what it was needs some REALLY creative designer. Sounds almost impossible task to me, without losing looots if subscribers.
     
  11. Fink

    Fink Guest

    A lot of my imbuing sales come from modded loot, so pvm isn't ruled out by any means. I can offer items cheaper than my usual line of template jewels, for example, because I haven't had to outlay a lot of materials on the principle properties. Finding suitable base items is a bit of a lottery, but it's another facet of gameplay & trade.

    Also, some items can't be crafted (ergo no runics) so imbuing makes good examples of these items less difficult to come by. eg: my weapon of choice is the pitchfork, and my best came from an x-sharder who paid 13m for it. I got it for 1m after he failed to find a buyer. Now I can turn out comparable weapons from NPC-bought blanks for a reasonable outlay, or cheaper still if I get lucky with the loot lottery. Generally items are cheaper now as long as you're not getting ripped off and especially if you farm your own materials. Anything that brings prices down from the upper stratosphere can only be a good thing.
     
  12. Splup

    Splup Guest

    That is true. I'v been looting HCI, DCI and LMC jewerly pieces to save relics... Some armor pieces too.
     
  13. dukarlo

    dukarlo Seasoned Veteran
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    Imbuing has been kind of fun for the most part but i see a few drawbacks. It has already begun to make archers and dexers even more powerful. Every archer now has a sick balanced bow and every dexer already had an uber weapon but now thier suits are just going to be crazy on top of it. Its actualy going to hurt mages the most. A mage can still improve thier suit but in the end a mage still has to cast spells and thier new suits arent going to help defend against 50 fire ball,velocity, crazy stam increase , mana increase dexers/archers. A dexer or archers success depends greatly on dice rolls and now thier dice rolls are going to be that much better where playing a mage is going to be that much harder. Take into account a dexer or archer with an uber suit/weap with a pet and its going to be that much more powerful. There will definately be some balance issues that will need to be adressed.
     
  14. popps

    popps Always Present
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    My answer ?

    Eventually (and the sooner the better...) it evens out, equalizes the playing field, making it for (finally) a more challenging game where no player will have the upper hand or, at least, not as much as now.....

    Players will finally be able to fight each other on an evened out field and only personal ability will matter, not items or modifiers.
     
  15. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    No, they do not. Such items are common, but only among power gamers.
     
  16. popps

    popps Always Present
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    Agree.



    To my opinion, this started happening when Ultima Online diverted from being a skill based game and shifted into an heavily item based game.

    I have been trying to say this for years but with scarce results, unfortunately.


    Agreed also.


    That would be good and a blessing.......


    Sad.........
     
  17. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Don't get me wrong. Imbuing is basically a good invention. My point is that it will make players (at least those who spend the necessary time to be able to craft such items) even more powerful. However, those who start playing UO with a new character still start out with 1000 gold pieces and crappy starting equipment. The gap between newbies and experienced players has become extremely wide. I don't think that this is a good idea if EA wants to get new customers. Also, as I said, 90% of the game content is obsolete to the majority of players, due to overpowered items.

    I think there's several ways to approach this:
    • Make ALL high-end items less powerful.
    • Give newbies better starting equipment.
    • Make low-level content more challenging.

    Currently, the game develops towards a less challenging game (with LOTS of features though), and while it favors the veteran players, it neglects the newcomers.

    I'm not suffering from nostalgia, as Maplestone said. I am well aware that during the Early Days UO had massive problems, and many aspects of the game have improved since then. However, we still should not forget about the things that made UO great 10 years ago, and which have now been diminished.
     
  18. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Farmer Nash's Pitchfork can be imbued.
     
  19. Quite honestly Hawk, not that I do not agree with you on several of your points because I can certainly understand your viewpoint; I just do not believe EA is implementing this stuff being concerned with "new players." It is my opinion they're doing it for the sole purpose of keeping the existing players.
     
  20. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    But isn't this exactly what imbuing is doing? It makes a much more gentle curve through mid-range equipment. (at least that is my experience so far)
     
  21. It may or may not depend on your shard, but a lot of the imbuers on my shard sell their good stuff for upwards of over 10 million which is still quite expensive, even for general players. I'm sure that once more people get into the imbuing craze, it will level out a little bit more.
     
  22. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    I have been at 120 for a week and can tell you first hand that it is fun as hell!!

    That being said, regarding bows, to get an uber one you must enhance it after you imbue it, that is the tricky part! They break!! (armour is the same way)

    As I have been playing on Siege for the last two years I love that I can keep up a good supply of Jewls!!

    My suggestion is to embrace imbuing, it is here to stay!

    Quick note regarding new players, for those that do not know you can bless (insure) only 1 item on Siege. I have given a few new players such items as
    war fork
    44 fireball
    44 hld
    30 ssi
    45 di

    ornate ax
    48 lightning
    44 hld
    13 hci
    30 ssi
    39 di

    If you are new to Siege PM me and I'll make you a nice weapon!!
     
  23. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    You have to take any prices at the moment with a grain of salt ... there's still a gold rush going on (*wonders why I am missing out on it*). The market will look dramatically different in a few months.

    There are going to be several different "tiers" of imbued equipment depending on whether they require relic fragments and/or special ingredients. I'm still learning what to make and am not yet touching my small pile of relic fragments, but I'm already seeing that it is much, much easier to bootstrap up my characters.
     
  24. The Lox

    The Lox Guest

    In my opinion, imbuing is going to "level the playing field" and return things more to how they used to be than anything they have ever done. Back in the day, if you either had a gm smith, or knew someone that had a gm smith, you could always have top level gear. In addition, if you didnt have either of these, alot of smiths would make your gear for a small fee if you provided the ingots.

    Imbuing is very similar. If you have an artificer or have a friend that has one, you can always have top level gear. In addition, many artificers are starting to imbue your items for relatively little cost if you provide the ingredients. In the months to come, it will not only be the people will millions upon millions of gold that have the gear to compete.
     
  25. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    I agree. I thought of this expansion more as the anti AoS expansion. PvP was going to love it. I don't see any impact on new players. A new player (even twinked out) wouldn't stand a chance against an experienced player in PvP before. They wouldn't do well against high level champ spawns, peerless or anything else tough .. that still didn't change.

    The good old days of UO are alive and well in the new player. Not in us. We have already logged into a new game... clueless of the world and the amazing amount of content it has to offer. We have already killed a bird, cooked the meat and ate it. We have already wandered about aimlessly killing weak mobs hoping for a better weapon or piece of armor... so that we may kill stronger mobs.

    What is different for the new player in UO is the same for every other established game: The rest of us are not new.

    I will tell you something of imbuing that brought back a little nostalgia. I've caught myself actually looking at the loot again. I'm not just bouncing from mob to mob plucking out the white meat(gold) and leaving the rest to rot.


    Too early to tell but I'm guessing that player skill will rule the roost again soon. And cheats.. but that’s another discussion. I have a few criticisms of the item requirements for different mods and intensities. That is also for another discussion.

    I think GM made exceptional armor will be more in demand now than ever before. I have a concept for a new shop I am putting together: Project Build-a-Bear (cheap trammie reference). Basically offer a suite of GM armor/weapons, a soul forge and all the mats/PoF I can manage to keep stocked. Let others w/imbuing build the suits they want. I'm targeting solo markets w/their own skill and guild crafters needing extra mats. Luna is one big SoT mall right now so I think I'll set up shop in my village in tram. Ought to be fun.
     
  26. Klapauc

    Klapauc Sage
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    Start a new mysticism/imbuing mage or warrior on a shard of your choice,no external help.Dont buy gear,just use loot.See how powerful you can be on your own.
     
  27. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    I beg to differ, Pikester......Look at you're almost opening staement, "most crafters are at 120..." that's an assumption and/or opinion. You cannot speak for the entire population. Maybe the few you know are, but not all....that goes undefined and proven.

    " Now, what advantage does Imbuing bring in the big picture"
    Simple, we as a population, don't have to pay insane Luna prices....that's enough right there.

    I do agree on skill though, that's a lost virtue, in my opinion. Skill was something you couldn't buy at Luna-mart.....saddly, I think those days are history.

    I agree and disagree.......
     
  28. Podolak

    Podolak Crazed Zealot
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    Now this is an interesting idea. If they made the ingredients a little cheaper and a little more available this would really make sense.

    Chad have you made off with any imbued items on Siege yet?
     
  29. legendsguy

    legendsguy Sage
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    i like imbuing because i can go collect ingredients myself for free then give 'em to am imbuer friend who makes me the armor for free and i got me some cool armor. didn't cost me a cent.

    or, (as i also do) you can collect the ingredients and sell them in bulk to imbuers and make a lot. i think it all works out.
     
  30. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    Let me say again, I like Imbuing in general. It is quite easy for a mid-level Artificer to make a 100% LRC suit from GM-crafted items. Very handy! It is also easy to make jewelry that suits a certain purpose where you don't need to have all high-end mods. I like these features very much!

    What I criticise is that (to my opinion) with imbuing it is possible and common to make items that are quite a bit more powerful than the items that already were available. High-end equipment will now be better and even more powerful.

    I already said during beta that, especially when it comes to jewelry, imbuing should be nerfed a bit.
     
  31. Masuri

    Masuri Seasoned Veteran
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    hawkeye_pike, what you're describing is called power creep, and there's no dev team in the world with the balls to avoid it. UO suffers from it more than do most other games, unfortunately. And yes, it (along with other poor game design decisions) creates the barrier to entry that keeps new players in a perpetual state of poverty, standing at the edges of the veterans' sandbox, especially when the monster power creep increases in tandem with players. Destard is a great example of that travesty.
     
  32. Shadefox

    Shadefox Certifiable
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    You can with some luck 2 hit a ogre lord, and I almost managed to 2 hit a shadow wyrm, might manage if you give it more tries than I did, no imbuing needed =)

    *****edit**

    never,ind, I forgot they buffed monsters since then, guess it wont be doable now. My bad
     
  33. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    A few... nothing too interesting yet. A necklace I think. Not much else.

    Most crafters are still training imbuing and collecting the necessary ingredients. 115/120 Imbuing isn't as easy to come by as it is on other shards. In fact, most crafters are so busy trying to catch up to imbuing that they've neglected their normal vendor activities. The shard is hemorrhaging for every day stuff like: orange petals, smoke bombs, arcane clothing, arrows, bolts, quivers, poison shurikens, fukiya darts, all potions, and more.

    We could use more crafters.

    See you in game.


    Anyway, back to the thread.

    :thumbsup:


    (Just remember to bring your Jester's Hat if you're going to mine in Barter Town.)
     
  34. Thangorodrim

    Thangorodrim Guest

    Yeah, lets make all the items fungible and also cursed. Hmmmm, seems to me I recall something like that.
     
  35. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    Except this time it would be optional. You have the choice to remain a human or gargoyle and they can all exist in harmony.

    :grouphug:
     
  36. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    I would point out that imbued jewelry still exists in a world with things such as "orniment/crystalline ring" combo or novo bleue.
     
  37. AnneNomilly

    AnneNomilly Seasoned Veteran
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    This. Hunting had lost it's thrill for me. After 9 years or so, there was no need to loot anything. I could craft better. Now I find I check EVERYTHING in the loot. I have a purpose in hunting now.

    I found some rings with 0 or 1 properties which are pretty much designer rings to me. I can make them into anything I want. AND it took NO major ingredients to help the jewelry finish off the suit. It's not perfect, but it's tons better than it was.

    Even for a new player, finding an item with little to no mods and then imbuing it using some common items helps get them a foot in the door to my way of thinking.

    To me, and this is me personally, the whole key to this is, you cannot fortify imbued items. Eventually, they are going to wear out. True, right now they wear out at an insane rate but still. There will be a continuing market/need for these items.

    Just my two cents and why I'm having a blast (and driving my friends crazy stopping to loot everything). LOL
     
  38. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    I found by buying just the 40 Imbue on a hunter to be helpful. I just toss all the loot in an unravel bag and look at only the grag necklas/earings/stone armor for mage armor mod. When full go hit the soulforge and unravel it all. Whats left is worth looking at. Toss the bag in the box for real imbueder to unravel and grab another empty.
     
  39. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Seems you are making a judgment that only skills introduced at the launch of UO have been worth anything. I'd point out that "newer" skills, Bushido, Ninja, Weaving, etc. have proven themselves very valuable to the creative template.

    I'd have to agree with Maple, you seem to be trying to hold tight to the your vision of the past and it's blinding you to the opportunities of the current game.
     
  40. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    I did that on my only elf character.

    It turns out that all my humans have enough imbuing from JOAT to unravel the low end loot.
     
  41. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    I do this on all my characters except my imbuer but joat seems to be the same as 0 because my elves do this also and get the same loot unless you are over 51 I believe its all the same! this is also how I worked imbu up by imbuing the loot that is left !
     
  42. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Fun fun.

    I guess that means I can put chiv or focus back on my tamer until I get off my tail and finish training taming. (which will never happen until skill gain jewels go the way of the dodo)