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Why are there still just so many different types of refinements?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ender, Aug 6, 2014.

  1. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    The different levels I'm alright with, with the amalgamator or whatever in the game. But I can't even get two of the same kind to use it with so many variations! I don't see anyone using them in-game, and I figured it was because they didn't think the tradeoffs were worth it, I'm planning on using them for a PvM only suit and I figured it wouldn't be too hard, but damn! Who designed this?
     
  2. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Ha ha! Yes, its just one of the worst designs ever in UO. After a zillion people telling the Dev team this was a stupid idea - they did it anyways.

    They should have the levels and the types but get rid of the armor designation. Then it would be more reasonable to collect. I just throw them all away. Its not worth the storage to try to figure them out.

    Completely failed system dev team. Nice job. In the meantime simple simple UI items haven't been fixed in 10 years.
     
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  3. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    the folks kept saying keep it simple....keep it playable...pick up and playable even....alas someone with a degree in rocketscienceology decided to make one of the most complex systems on top of a already ridiculous over the top armour/weapon system we have

    can we please simplify.....dohhhh ...oh it dont matter....make it even more complex if u like i gave up on armours and weapons 2 years ago.
     
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  4. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Babbling Loonie
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    While I like the basic concept of the refinements, I feel that the implementation of the system leaves something to be desired. As stated above, the devs were warned, quite loudly, that the system was bloated and over-thought...but they ignored us and shoved it out anyway. Everyone I know trashes the refinements for points, as its simply not worth the storage space headache of getting enough of them that are the right type and the right level.

    I think I've seen two people on GL in suits that were refined. Two.

    The easiest way to streamline the system is to drop the specific armor-types and just keep the levels. The amalgamators will still be useful.
     
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  5. James Moriarty

    James Moriarty Journeyman
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    I was making some new suits a few weeks back after not playing for around 18 months my suits needed updating. I had my first look at this refinement system and a good look at the new loot in the dungeons and the imbuing system along with the reforging system and basically I just gave up and ended up sticking with my outdated suits as the crafting system is way to complex for the returning player never mind a new player.

    Its great to have a load of different attributes you can use on your suits but when you need a degree in mathematics just to figure out the basics...
     
  6. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    ditto ...like i say i gave up with suits/weapons 2 years ago...it hurts my brain.....pass me that silver vanquishing katana any day of the week
     
  7. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    are they stackable?
     
  8. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    After the dci nerf the idea of refinements makes sense.

    However, if your actually searching for them and not just buying them its really not worth it for most. Theres way too many kinds.

    If your into crafting tho and never tried out a refined suit id recommend it. its amazing the difference a 60 dci pvm suit makes in certain situations. I couldnt imagine soloing the captains in blackthorns dungeon on a melee character without one.
     
  9. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    They should have all the armor types. Appling a window choice of reinforced or deflecting. Appling them should of had a random strength level. Appling them would never lower the refinement strength of armor already refined at a higher level. Done deal simple.
     
    #9 Warpig Inc, Aug 6, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  10. icm420

    icm420 Seasoned Veteran
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    I'm trying a 65DCI suit in pvp.. however I'm still pretty nervous about it, as a curse takes me to 56 in all resists. This is the biggest drawback to this suit..obviously I don't run into many mages where I am pvping or else I doubt I would've continued with such a heavy defensive character. So far it is pretty decent, it is more like the way mages used to be, obviously..where you can cast while getting shot at. The difference is I had to put parry on, sacrifice quite a few mods and take a big penalty to achieve it, 80 dex is not friendly for a mage with no med in studded. Granted I thought if I was going to do this suit it should be on a guy with parry, I wouldn't say you have to use parry.. just makes more sense from where I'm sitting if you do.

    I had to xfer to several shards to get the materials needed to do this suit also, Lake Superior seems to be the only server that has an abundant supply of refinements. I've been collecting for months and still didn't have enough to do the suit without supplementing. Was it worth it? I'm not sure yet.. One thing I am sure of.. refinements are poorly designed and is a failed system I see very few people even bothering to look at.
     
  11. Smoot

    Smoot Grand Poobah
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    i stole refinements for about a week, did my shop rounds about twice a day. only found 1 out of the 5 i actually needed. and it was the 1mod lowest level one. easiest one to get. i bought the rest, and paying enough for someone too look thru an unorganized clutter of 100s of refinements isnt cheap.
     
  12. kaio

    kaio Sage
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    Must say i agree with almost everything said..(HAHA thats rare btw)
    I was also very excited when refinement came, the "system" is not so hard to figure out, but there are as many have said way too many..
    If only we could stack them, then it might be worth collecting them..as it is now, i also trash all mine..i would love to enhance my suits with better resist or dci.
     
  13. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Cause it's a stupid system that was designed broken.
     
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  14. Speranza

    Speranza Slightly Crazed
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    No
     
  15. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    I would say that someone with such a degree would have purposefully avoided overcomplexity, but I don't find it too bad once you realize that it's merely a tradeoff between DCI and resists. It's not quite like the Newtonian physics exam question of a target x m from the base of a cliff, moving v m/s, with a cannon on top of the cliff (muzzle opening height h) pointed at angle ϴ, which fires projectiles at...

    My (edit: principal) problems with the system isn't even the storage required, because I dump so many that are of no use to me, but that it's difficult to get the best refinements (constant guard-whacking because you need to steal an unwanted refinement plus anything else so a good one might spawn next time), and that the supposed 30%/15% bonus roll chances are in practice far lower.

    Ha, if only! Just that would almost make me forget the difficulty of getting them in the first place.

    Random strength doesn't apply to plus or minus one, though. I myself wouldn't want to see any more randomness in the system, because the 30%/15% are bad enough, but it would have been nice to see, for example, building up a piece to +5 DCI/-5 fire resist, with a maximum of ±5 resist across all pieces. This could have allowed for certain customizations, like +5 to three resists and the DCI reduction compensated for by -5 to two unwanted resists, but I presume that ±1 per resist per piece was done because it's easier programming.
     
  16. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    I don't think it's really "complex" more than it's just bad design, should have been separated by crafting skill only and NOT individual armor types. It'd be really usable then.
     
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  17. R Traveler

    R Traveler Babbling Loonie
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    agree
    :please:
     
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  18. Scribbles

    Scribbles Babbling Loonie
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    Ive tried to make a "refined" suit a couple times in recent history as i do see the potential in what it is. However, to no avail, I gave up after hours of searching, reading, experimenting... Its plain and simple too hard to understand.

    Great idea though for sure. I definitely wish it was just part of the imbuing skill.
     
  19. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    The concept is really simple to me, unless I'm missing the point completely.

    It's just DOING it, I just can't.
     
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  20. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Have to look at another aspect. Nobody is going to waste SOSs and Tmaps when we are so close to a revamp update on the loot. Just some FYI from an LS vendor house owner. Squat and hold.
     
  21. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    They do better then stack. They can be combined into the next higher strength. Burn 10k turn in points for the tool that never wears out. I don't sit on three and wait for the forth. Combine what I can and buy more tools. But as I stated above about not going after more now. Now I gather leather and mine, in case they ever update the BoD rewards.
     
  22. The Zog historian

    The Zog historian Babbling Loonie
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    You're presuming two things: that someone already has enough to fill an amalgamator, and that someone wants to get the next higher strength.
     
  23. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    The amalgamator made me hate this system even more than I did when it was proposed and implemented. Not because it didn't make the system easier to deal with (it did, albeit only VERY slightly) but because it was in essence just doubling down on the punishment to the players.
    First we had to take an obviously broken system, then we have to PAY to get an item that makes it more manageable. They should have just bit the bullet and actually fixed the system itself. Even if combining was the only change they felt was required, it should have been changed directly. Like double clicking to combine uses with other things, like dye bottles.
    Implicitly acting like the amalgamator was "bonus" we must earn, not something they system desperately needed to make it at least potentially usable was ridiculous.

    Like someone else said this system could be salvaged by removing the armor designations, but the simple fact that they didn't understand from the get go that adding like 200+ unstackable items that were so hard to piece together that making desired alterations to just ONE suit could literally take months if not years, makes me just think they believe this is how the system should work, and it wont be changed.
    Whats more troubling is that clearly more than one person thought this indefeasibly awful design was a GOOD idea. If I were the games producer someone came to me with this I would not only send them back to the drawing board I would probably strongly question their design abilities.

    That's not a statement I make lightly, as I usually feel that I can defend choices the dev teams makes, even the unpopular and less than great ones, simply because game design on this scale is very difficult, they are undermanned and the game is beyond outdated, but really, there is no excuse for this system, especially seeing as during test it's flaws were quite clearly and explicitly diagrammed... and then completely ignored.

    Result: an unused (yet simply fixed) system and in its current stat the grim poster child for waste of dev time.

    Sorry to write a novel here, but it just really got to me how bad it was, and how emblematic it was for the kind of needlessly inelegant design we have seen before in systems like ship cannons for example or anything else that takes many steps when it should only reasonably take a few. It just builds tedium and crushes fun.
     
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  24. York_Siege

    York_Siege Seasoned Veteran

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    They do make fine... clean up points. I haven't seen anyone use these either. I was asking some crafters the other day about it and they said it that they had yet to figure the system out and really aren't interested in it. Then they said it best to throw them away since they give decent points.
     
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  25. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    Removing the spread of armor types is the easy button answer. Would of been another thing added to the game and players burned out on after two weeks. My earlier post before the one you quoted would of been the better balanced system.

    Again: They should have all the armor types. Appling a window choice of reinforced or deflecting. Appling them should of had a random strength level. Appling them would never lower the refinement strength of armor already refined at a higher level. Done deal simple.
     
  26. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Firstly, it shouldn't be looked at as some kind of adventure or something. It's just a new crafting facet, it should be useful. Secondly, it better to "burn out" quickly and be useful than to be completely unused, and thus pointless. But since people make new suits over time, I don't see how it would burn out any way. People try new approaches and make new characters all the time.

    Your proposed changes would help somewhat, but still probably the system would be too bloated to be used, and would require a lot more work than simply removing the armor types.
     
  27. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
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    No armor type would of reduced gathering to 5 each of deflecting and reinforced. And only 1 each desired without a combinding ability. Maybe players using fortification strength untill better acquired.

    My ideal has one refinement per armor type. Having a choice of deflection or reinforced when applied. The random factor of not knowing the strength until burned. The random factor being key to making them an easily traded and vendor selling item.

    With most things going in the game still driven by human nature. There is that $10,000 that you earn and save for and how it is used and enjoyed. Then the other side of the coin where that $10,000 just falls in your lap. Only effort was scraping the coating off the dollar scratch-off. How much better would UO be with more then CG scribbling and Code Mage workforce education. Little peeking over the game's shoulder by those schooled in how money and the brain works.
     
  28. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    It makes more sense to me to know what you are getting. Making them random would just frustrate people, especially if you just get no effect if you don't get a better result that the one the item already has. I get that its to drop item count, but item count would be manageable, and not much larger just by removing armor designations. The random effect is not needed.

    A little scattered here.... but I think what you are getting at is that its better to work for something than to be given it. I think that's true to some respect, but again like I said this system is so ridiculously simple that it should not be very involved. Like, imbuing a weapon is not an "Ahh, I accomplished something!" moment , it's just preparation to go out and do something, and the effect on your character is FAR greater. I just don't see the value to this system taking a ton of time. The process is not interesting.

    Honestly this system could have just been tacked on to crafting skills like enhancement where you can just select "reinforce armor" from a button on crafting menu, and cut out the silly items altogether, and it probably would be a much better system.

    If you want to make it take more time then reduce the spawn rate. But I really don't think it should take that much time. If you made them as rare as say, alacrity scrolls, they would still be valuable while maintaining their functionality.
    Making the effect random is just creating effort in an artificial way. You succeed because you get lucky, not because you worked hard.