1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Why can't bards just get some of the stuff other classes already have?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Luke Carjacker, May 20, 2010.

  1. There seems to be some sentiment that people complaining about the new bard changes should just take what they're given and shut up for another 5 (or 8 or 10) years. I'll say that I appreciate the new opportunities, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't speak up about things that are poorly implemented or poorly conceived.

    I think bards would be very happy if they would have received a few of the things other classes have received over the years. So, before archers, mages, dexxers & tamers tell bards to "take what you get and like it", how about giving bards some of these benefits:

    1. SSI of 30-40% on weapons (with additional 20-30% available on suits now).

    2. FC/FCR bonuses up to 4/6.

    3. Damage increase of 300% (different for pvp I know)

    4. Uncapped SDI

    5. Special effects like Armor Ignore, dismount, double strike, bleed, mortal, etc.

    6. Whole new schools of magic with a plethora (tell me what is a plethora?) of new spells & effects.

    7. Repairable/fortifiable magic items (still can't repair instruments, not that there's any reason to because they're the same junk we've had for 12 years).

    8. Runically crafted magic items (some people run around with bows & weapons worth 20-30-100m gold or more, I run with a lute worth about 500gp).

    9. Multiple types of artifact & craftable spellbooks with a multitude of effects. Conjurer's Grimoire, Scrapper's etc.

    10. Arties that benefit specific classes. Other classes have things like Ornament of the Magician, Jackal's Collar over the years, not to mention things like Jade Armband, Proector of Battle Mage or Tinker's Leggings with SA and robes with SSI, talismans with LMC, etc etc etc. Bards have received nothing more powerful than what you can pick up off a lizardman - a total afterthought.

    Bards get no speed bonuses, or damage bonuses or useful crafted or artifact equipment. Bards don't directly benefit from any of the above things that players have received over the years (sure a bard/mage or bard/archer might benefit, but not because of the "bard" part). I think Bards would be ecstatic with the benefits from any of #1 through #10 (and a host of others I can't think of at the moment).

    So, before you run tell bards to shove it so you can run off and enjoy your 2/6 mystic necro mage with 40 LMC, mana regen and SDI, your abc archer with 60SSI in your suit and 300% DI, or your sampire, ninja archer or whatever else you got, just keep in mind that Bards would be really really happy with any of the multitude of benefits you've received over the years.
     
  2. canary

    canary Guest

    Uhm, I play a bard, and I totally disagree that they suck and need these kinds of bonuses.

    I personally LIKE the new Mastery additions. I can already do major crowd control... I'm unsure why ppl feel like you do. /shrugs
     
  3. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Major crowd control of what? medium-high mobs that you can provoke 2 of them every 12 seconds? In the 12 seconds you've done the provocation I would have KILLED both mobs with my Sampire Archer.

    This is provided you succeed with the provocation attempt or peacemaking (which only last a short while and is one mob only).

    Bards are redicilously underpowered on their own, they only have some measure of power through other skills.
     
  4. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Please explain how taming benefits from any of the above listed items? ...

    Yeah, thanks. rolleyes:
     
  5. canary

    canary Guest

    The word is 'ridiculously' and I'm just going to disagree. I swear you are contrary at times for the simple sake of finding something to complain about, imo.
     
  6. He didn't say they sucked without them, he is trying to address (and did it very well imo) the fact that because the spot light is on bards for the first time probably ever that the people who keep saying everything is fine and telling us to settle for whatever we're given are mostly not looking at it in a very balanced way.

    I'd also like to know what new ability is helping you do 'major crowd control'? Or if you didn't mean the new ones, sitting there spamming area peace doesn't kill anything, apart from maybe other players.
     
  7. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    OH WOW, I MISSPELLED A WORD IN A TERTIARY LANGUAGE AT 2 AM IN THE MORNING, SOMEONE CALL THE COPS!!!!

    You can't disagree with facts of the game. You can try, but it will just make you look like an idiot.

    I really doubt you have a bard, you're just here trolling.
     
  8. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    6,680
    Likes Received:
    824
    Perhaps he is popps. We struck down popps and now he became more powerful that we could have imagined :p
     
  9. canary

    canary Guest

    Err... 'facts of the game'? Maybe you just don't play a bard correctly.

    You can doubt all you want my claims of using a bard, LC. It won't make you right.
     
  10. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    LOL, facts of the game are not changed by how you play the game. You do not succeed more just because you "play better". Your skill reuse timer don't come faster because you're "better".

    I don't doubt that you're trolling, shooting everything down that doesn't even really concern you even if you were a bard.
     
  11. So not the point. Tamers have had numerous pets over the years 2-4 every expansion plus the GD & Dread thrown in just for the hell of it, pet balls, pet buff foods, pet bonding, pet res potions even pet dyes were in discussion previously, they've hardly gone without. Tbh he did you a favour not bringing them up.
     
  12. Lord Chaos

    Lord Chaos Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    10,075
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not to mention you can get pet armor potions and pet buffs.

    Other skills also compliments taming very well.
     
  13. Lets compare that to what bards have had...

    Firehorn; popular for about 6 months until people got sick of needing Sulphorous Ash.

    Replenish charges property; doesn't allow you to do anything you already couldn't, and recharges too slowly to be dependable.

    A couple of Artifact double slayer instruments; nice, fair enough, but they still don't allow you to do anything you already couldn't.
     
  14. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    some ideas

    make fc/fcr reduce the timer (i.e. fc1 reduces by 1sec,fcr 2 by .5 secs)
    lrc applies to firehorn
    equipable/imbueable instruments
    i do think there on the right path with the songbook idea, maybe use dawns music box or something similar for different fx with each song(i.e. you play "stones" and you get a bombard spell like effect)
    lets think D&D for a minute
    you had weapons like horn of blasting,drums of panic, this is what a bard needs
    making buffs for party is a nice, but not my style. i thnk the existing bard skills do enough of that already.
     
  15. Haddy G

    Haddy G Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    9
    The timer should just be removed. That would be the best update for Bards.
     
  16. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Don't make me laugh. Pet Balls, which don't work in many areas, especially the most highly sought after hunting areas aka the Abyss.

    Pet Buff foods? You mean the quest that gives a pet like 5% more stats? Its too bad pet damage is capped right? rolleyes:

    Pet Bonding is probably the best thing given to tamers and its something that should have been in game to begin with.

    Pet res potions? I have never seen a pet res potion... But it seems pretty useless to a tamer with Vet, who can just res his pet regardless.

    What about all the boss mobs who make mockery's of many pets? Or the problems with control? How about the monsters that switch target and make vetting a nightmare?

    And to claim that every pet that can be tamed is in game for tamers use only is rather... amusing. :lol:
     
  17. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    pet bonding killed the community, there was a thriving business in selling pets, yeah you can rez, with your skill how often do you fail with "all kill"? bards take a risk of failure everytime they invoke there skills.

    how bout the HUGE list of solo'able monsters for tamers, even some that shouldnt be.

    dont complain about zones,you dont have to go there, and dont cry cause you have to walk your "big dog"
    pet res potion is in existence, read up on it, you have npc rezzers as well
    we can go all day about the haves
    lets get back to the have nots
     
  18. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Huge list of solo monsters? Yeah, you mean the ones that require OTHER skills and the items listed above to be able to solo? I would LOVE to see a video of someone with 120 Vet/Tame/Lore solo some of the things which other builds solo, faster, and with less trouble.

    I have a risk of failure with all kill everytime I use it. It would help if you actually understood the mechanics of how pet commands worked before starting to talk about them. Even at 120 taming/lore there is still a 1% chance of failure for all pet commands.

    Don't complain about zones I can't use the items you're claiming are great benefits in? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. rolleyes:

    "Pet balls are great! Don't complain that you can't use them in the best areas!" ......... yeah ok.

    Are you really arguing that pet res potions and NPC vets being able to res are benefits to TAMERS? Seriously? Do you even think before you post?

    Most tamers have VETERINARY and DONT NEED Pet res potions and NPC Ressers. That CRAP was put in for the benefit of people without taming. Instead of giving TAMERS the ability to MAKE pet res potions, or res contracts to SELL to other players, the devs thought it would be an awesome idea to let NPC's get all the money.

    Keep trying, and I will keep pointing out the flaws in your arguements.
     
  19. Pet balls were introduced a pretty long time before SA.

    Yeah and the one that when it first came out could give a Greater Dragon 100 Phys 100 Fire resist.

    *Shrugs* not the point, the point is they've had plenty.

    Whether you've seen it or not does not change the fact it exists.

    The only boss mob you can't use a Tamer for is Paroxysmus'. And even thats debateable given the commands you could quite easily use a GD as a shield.

    There are no problems with control, the only problem is Tamers who don't know not to leave their pets on guard/kill as the last command, control is working fine.

    Monsters target switching can be easily dealt with, there are at least two ways you can stay with your pet regardless of 'target switchers' (which they don't actually do its a result of area spells and positioning - usually bad position on the Tamers part) and there are multiple ways to heals pets at a distance. What exactly does any of this has to do with how much/little Tamers have had compared to Bards?

    I never claimed any such thing. But since you bring it up, it does still require a Tamer to Tame it and sell it to another player.

    So aside from your misguided view that Tamers have it tough this has absoloutely nothing to do with this topic. You asked what Tamers have had, making out they've had nothing, they've had plenty, bards have had nothing.
     
  20. The risk of failure for bards is something like 80% (slayer) - 90% (exceptional).
     
  21. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Yet are useless in the abyss... and many other places... hmm...

    How many people do you think keep those regularly stocked? I have handed in maybe 1 or 2 and then decided they were worth the trouble. You could compare this fail attempt at giving Tamers an option with how you're reacting to the bard changes.

    Yes, because something which should have been in game when it launched was added years later, they have had plenty. rolleyes: Nice logic. Not to mention bonding is probably the only thing that is really great for tamers, and even then you have to wait a week for it to bond. How many mages have to wait a week after putting a new spell in their spell book? How many bards have to wait a week after getting a new instrument to be able to use it?

    The fact it exists matters little. You're claiming a pet res potion is useful for a tamer who can just use one of the three taming skills to res his pet? Not useful for a pure tamer. Not at all. Maybe some hybrid form, but then again we're not talking hybrids or we could just claim that Archery and Disco are perfect the way they are.

    You can not many solo boss mob in game with JUST animal taming/lore and Vet. If you do, please post the fraps on Youtube, because I would love to see it.

    I would especially love to see you solo the Stygian Dragon and Slasher with just those three skills.

    Yes, because I love spamming all kill all day. The control statement was made about the variants in commands, which are none. Also, as I stated above, a tamer with 120/120 Lore/Taming will always have a 1% chance to fail a command.

    No there isn't a way to heal pets at a distance with JUST taming skills. IF we're not talking specifically about just taming skills then this entire post is crap, as everything the OP listed IS beneficial to bards who also have other skills.

    Yes, because all the tamable pets are not allowed to be killed and looted or skinned or used in other ways by other players right? Even if tamers weren't in game, the majority of the monsters which can be tamed would still be in game for other builds to hunt and kill.

    You claimed the all of the monsters in game are a benefit to tamers, where in actuality, the fact that taming is just an option to be used with the animals that are in the game regardless. Not many animals were put into the game for the specific reason of taming.

    Thats like me saying musical instruments were put into the game for the sole purpose of bard use. Wait... thats true, as a player without musicianship can't actually play a tune on an instrument...

    Actually no, its 70%(slayer) and 80%(exceptional) if you're fighting most peerless. At least with disco.

    But lets put this into a better perspective. Taming even with a 120/120 tamer can take between 2 and 10 tries on average from my experience, when taming stuff with a taming difficulty of 105 or so (Greater Dragons).

    So my skill difficulty is just as difficult as yours it seems.
     
  22. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    3
    I must have clicked on the wrong thread; I could have swore this one was supposed to be about bards and not tamers.
     
  23. maroite

    maroite Guest

    Well, the way I read it, it was about a character with JUST the 4 bard skills not having anything that really benefits those skills. And how nothing has been added to benefit bards, which is fine I can sympathize with that, but the fact that somehow tamers got lumped in with mages/dexxers/sampires is beyond me, as nothing the OP listed benefits the three taming skills.

    Come to think of it, nothing that Lord GOD has been talking about really gives any benefit to the actual taming skills. . . :lol:

    That being said, I am not against bards getting some additions, but the way the OP went about it and right after some changes (mastery) were added is a little disheartening.
     
  24. AzSel

    AzSel Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    870
    Likes Received:
    4
    I was hoping this "bard love" would be something like each bard skill(disco,provo,peace) would have their own timer atleast. As it is now the time you need for the skill to be usable again someone else has killed all the monsters on your screen, its frustrating.

    I do apreciate what we are given now, but its not what I hoped for...Bards are(still) underpowered on their own imo.
     
  25. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2003
    Messages:
    956
    Likes Received:
    134
    anywho, back on track. the bard skills on test still need tweaking if there going in the devs direction they planned.
    and yes
    reduce or banish the timer
    even 5 secs would be nice
     
  26. Taming has benefited from new pets every single publish, not to mention new pets from in-game scenarios. So, care to trade in your greater dragon for a regular dragon? Yeah, didn't think so. How about your dread warhorse for a nightmare? Oh, right. Your bake kitsune/rune beetle combo? Don't want to give that all up? How about a nice fire steed for deco?

    Care to be more of a moron? Ok, thanks for playing.
     
  27. Doesn't matter, they also had a long and prosperous time being abused to f in PvP until they decided dropping overpowered pets on top of people that couldn't get away non stop was a bit OTT.

    Doesn't matter, it was something that was added to the game that benefitted Tamers.

    Idk, its up there with other great questions like how are you still not getting this. Doesn't matter what situations you yarn it out to the fact is TAMERS GOT PLENTY. Doesn't matter how when why where or who used it, the fact is they got it and all the while you were getting all this crap that you are clearly completely ungrateful for bards were getting nothing.

    No, I'm claiming its something added to the game that aids pets, and its plenty useful for people who don't have Vet like the hoards of dexxer Tamers in PvP. Again, just because you're not aware of it does not mean it doesn't exist.

    And I would love you to explain how this is relavent. Simple facts for you (based on your ******** logic that a template only has the base class skills):
    Music/Peace = No damage to anything
    Music/Discord = No damage to anything
    Music/Provoke = Damage but only if theres something else around to Provoke (which there isn't for most bosses) AND even if there was most are non bardable.
    Tame/Lore/Vet = Damage to plenty, no, not soloing everything, but defeinitely a helluva lot more than bards.

    No idea what you're talking about but as with the rest of your post I doubt its anything to do with the topic.

    I didn't say there was.

    So? The fact is Tamers are in game, and are able to tame them, and have been getting pets and accessories added to them for a long time. Bards have not.

    No I didn't. What I said was 2-4 tameables were added every expansion. Which they were, and whether they were meant for Taming or of use to the Tamer is irrelavent, its something a Tamer was getting while Bards were getting nothing.

    Yeah but the difference is musical instruments were already in the game, and they all perform the same function, where as new pets were added that perform different functions. So yeah it is like you saying that, but its still not relavent.
     
  28. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    51
    I think the point is that bards have lagged behind in updates compared to some other classes/skills. I have two accounts with 14 developed characters (tamers included). I don't have a bias for one skill over another as I like variety. That being said, bards have not received much attention in years and I say the most attention paid was during Publish 16 - that was how many years ago? So this may be the one shot we have in getting substantial improvements. I don't think anyone here is trying to be insulting toward tamers, it was just an example of some additions that taming has received.
     
  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,978
    Likes Received:
    5,465

    Because you only have 1 bard skill..... others who have all 3... that's different. And like said in 12 seconds it takes to provoke things.... others have killed them for you.... and you get what????? Nothing.... You Discord it ... and everyone else reaps the benefit.... hardly the bard... So while you have your monsters provoked the gain you get from that is highly limited while others jump in and massacre the things in the blink of an eye....

    Sure it's fine while you are the ONLY one there hunting..... but if you are trying to actually hunt somewhere where there is competition.... forget it.
     
  30. Tom_Builder

    Tom_Builder Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2002
    Messages:
    1,396
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, to get this thread back to BARDS.

    I would love to see items added with faster playing to shorten the delay. Another good thing would be somethings like the firehorn, but with lighting, posion, ect. I dont mind carrying regs to use the firehorn, so I dont see that as a problem.

    As it is bards are great, but other classes can still take down most things quicker. If you are pure bard, it's rare that you get looting rights if your in a group. But when playing solo, I can clear most areas (including doom) with ease. I have a much harder time clearing Doom with my tamer, or archer then I do with my bard (this is playing solo).

    In todays UO not many people play pure bards, with a discord tamer/archer it is much easier to take down things in pvm. Its a give and take.

    Tom
     
  31. Yes, this is one of the major reasons why bards are worked up over these new additions, it's been forever since we've received any attention at all. And thinking back to Publish 16, we did get discord which was a nice replacement for enticement, but we got a COLOSSAL nerf to provoke, where one day at 100/100 you could provoke any two things in the game, and the next day we got "your skill is up not up to the task to attempt".

    Then, came that whole period where the felt they had to insert 1-2 creatures into every new fighting area that were immune to bard skills (most of tokuno is like this).

    All the while, other classes have been getting stuff, skills & improvements that makes them faster & more powerful. Seriously, there's ways for both spellcasters & warriors to leech unlimited amounts of mana, yet bards still get same cool down. Do archers really need more SSI (can get over 70% now) when they can already get to 180+ stamina? So now they can swing an ornate axe as fast as dagger, and bards get the same delays still.

    How is it that bards get no benefits from stats? Stamina makes warriors & archers swing at insane rates, but doesn't affect bards? Strength & intelligence improve damage and spell damage, but has no benefit for bards? Mana increases help dexxers & mages alike because they've gotten special attacks, combat spells & new schools of magic. Bard...same cool down timer, regardless of how big your stats are or how how your skill is (does someone with 120 skill really have to be as slow as a newbie with 50?)

    And tamers? Pet bonding doesn't just allow you to not have to tame new pets, the biggest benefit is that you walk (or ride or fly) around with a fully trained pet at all times (i'll just estimate that a fully trained put is 3-5x more useful than a fresh tame). So, compare the time span where bards got basically nothing, tamers get greater dragons, cu sidhes and dread warhorses (not to mention bake kitsune, rune beetles, fire steeds, unicorns, ki-rin, raptors...and on) that are always fully trained? You don't consider that an improvement over a fresh tamed normal dragon or nightmare you used to have? Bards would stop complaining if they got a fraction of that effectiveness.

    And how about this kick to the groin that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Based on my own experiments and from what I've read, bards have no advantage when using snake charmer flutes, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY MUSIC BASED!! So yes, introduce a new skill for an area that appeals to many players, steal code & text from a discontinued bard skill (enticement) and then totally eliminate any advantage bards (or at least people with high music) should have!?! Did the developers even remember there were bards in the game when they put this in? Damn.

    So yeah, now that bards are finally front and center, it would be nice if what we get can be useful in more than just highly specific & limited situations.
     
  32. I agree with Shelleybean & Luke.
     
  33. chuckoatl

    chuckoatl Guest

    You know, I think if UO just got rid of the skill cap you people would still find something to ***** about.
     
  34. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Reporter Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2000
    Messages:
    18,978
    Likes Received:
    5,465

    That is correct..... Doing this to bards is EXACTLY like saying Ok Tamers... you can only have one kind of pet..... if you want a new type of pet..... Sorry no you can only have dragons.... unless you want to go out and do this time consuming quest but then you have to give up your dragons and now you can only have these horses or mares... Oh you want a dragon again??? no can't just go to the stable and swap out your pet ..... no you need to go and do a silly quest so you can control that animal!.....

    I see no difference here..... why can a tamer tame a variety of pets and swap them at the drop of a hat.... an archer trades bows at the drop of a hat....

    And if I want the best possible thing for my Peacing.... I have to drop the best thing for my provoking.... but to do so... I'm going to have to waste time doing the stinking quest over and over and over again...

    Hey I don't mind if you make me go back to the guy and swap .... but don't make me do the stupid quest a 100,000 times.... Just don't..... do it once and forget it. The only ones this is effecting is those with more than one barding skill. The majority of people with barding skill have only ONE... so they will do the quest one time... and reap all the benefits ... while those of us who have worked hard to have all the skills.... are penalized. Not cool.
     
  35. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    I'm fairly unsure why they implemented the "mastery" stuff this way. I have all four skills, and it means I would have to quickly run and change out the mastery if I decided to alter my plans for a hunt or a particular party.

    I'd have preferred a barding spell book, with each of the mastery "spells" having their own quests to gather. Then allow scribes to make the books (but only bard/scribes to scribe the spells) and add +success chance modifiers to the crafted books (and new book/instrument "artifacts".) If we have them as scrolls then you could use the mastery on an individual basis (if you only liked one of them anyway) or use the spellbook one for more power.

    I also think new horns would be good, perhaps one for each reagent with individual effects, with several "artifact" horns that have special actions.

    I think any true Bard would agree that giving us success chance improvements and skill timer removal would make us happy.

    Unlike other types of folks, Bards don't whine constantly, we ask for specifics and we are pretty patient people. We've lived with instruments that only play the same song for 12 years. How fricking patient do we have to be? LOTS.

    :gun: