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Why cant the Devs fix duping?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by dwalker0229, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. dwalker0229

    dwalker0229 Guest

    This game has been around for 12 years now and Duping which has been a major issue for years is still rampant. Why is this? Anyone think that either the Dev team is not that bright and cant fix it or just that they dont want to. Maybe they themselves profit off of it. Anyone have any other opinions.
     
  2. Valas

    Valas Guest

    Its not that they cant fix it, its that the capabilities of the current Game Engine which Ultima Online 2D are not up to modern technology. Like you said the game is 12 years old, back then Duping wasnt even a drop in the Ocean, it was un-thought of. But thats how it goes, the 2D engine would have to be scrapped for a start which I dont think would go down too well.
     
  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    Quote for the win :D
     
  4. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Not quite. There was a pretty bad dupe in Dec 1997 (to the point that after it was fixed, there were BIG blurbs about it and what the devs where doing at the time in regards to the accounts busted on the patch screen). There have been dupes off and on ever since.

    With the pace that the game changes, every time one dupe bug is identified and the loophole closed, a new one pops up either due to new systems in an expansion, or new external systems (i.e. shard transfers), or new internal systems (changeling dupes).

    Since the devs and the QA teams do not have the sheer manpower of the paying public to think of and try outlandish ideas on what to do in the game, the dupe bugs go unrealized until after they become a problem (usually due to the lack of honor on the part of the person or people who find the bug in not reporting it, but abusing it instead, but sometimes on the unwillingness of the devs to act on reports of said bugs).

    Dupes have been a persistent problem, but I do not entirely believe they are client specific either.

    I'm going to go with the "constant introduction of new systems with a lack of QC manpower" option over the "2d is old" option.

    "2d is old" argument really mainly works with unapproved active (in that they directly affect the client itself) 3rd party programs, not so much with dupe bugs.
     
  5. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    proof?
     
  6. rwek

    rwek Guest

    um, the huge influx of verite ninja armor with stellar mods for sale on all servers?


    What you think a hanful of people actually turned in 20K smith bods to get a 15 use hammer just to resell the armor for a few mil?


    duped valorite hammers for the slower crowd.
     
  7. JC the Builder

    JC the Builder Crazed Zealot
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    Because duping does not come from a single source. Any number of ways to manipulate items in the game could be bugged and thus a source of duping. There are hundreds of possible avenues with thousands of possible methods which could be exploited. Testing all possible outcomes is impossible.

    For example, who would ever think that placing a certain box in a certain location on the ground would magically create items inside it? No one. But it happened and it got fixed. Duping is one issue that can only be dealt with as it comes up in most cases.
     
  8. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    has feedback been sent to ask for it to be investigated?

    (I'm not saying that there isn't usually fire where there's smoke, but this thread seems to have skipped the step of actually complaining about a possible dupe and gone straight to the "when will it all stop" phase ... there's a proper order to the ritual of ranting)
     
  9. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest

    duping and bugs and exploits.

    that's what makes UO, UO!

    I love our unique world filled with quirky things like these. :D

    I would love to discover a dupe or changling-dupe type thing one day, that would just be so cool!:bowdown:
     
  10. Chiera

    Chiera Guest

    hehe... indeed, dupes and exploits have been around for as long as this game exists. And in a complex, dynamic and evolutionary environment such as online games this will always be a part of these games since as one leak is fixed another one will open up sooner or later. Never underestimate the creativity of a few thousand dedicated players when it comes to testing software to its limits :D
    Even in the all so cheat free wow there was a dupe bug discovered and exploited within the first week of its launch ;)

    I think it is indeed not the fact that dupes and exploits exist (a fact you just have to live with) but rather how they are dealt with by a dev team. Means how long it takes to fix it and which priorities are set when solving the problem. A I think we've all seen much worse in that respect than we are seeing now.
     
  11. Arch Magus

    Arch Magus Guest

    :hug::hug::hug::hug:
     
  12. LordNoximos

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    Dupes are just a very slimey way of getting things in a different manner.

    Look at Edison, he made bulbs simply because he was tired of farming fire wood.

    Alternate methods, different strokes for different folks.


    DISCLAIMER;
    Lord Noximos & affiliates in no way shape or form support duping!

    But get over it :<
     
  13. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
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    Without going through the entire thread I'll first tell you their POV is the cheaters and dupers in this game are a small portion and therefore banning them would not benefit the legit players.

    Does it make sense? In its ENTIRETY, absolutely not. There are too many cheaters, and even if they were a small portion how would removing them NOT be beneficial for the game itself, above all? Please.

    I'm sticking with my doubts about this whole issue with cheats, hacks and dupes. At least now they did something about Trial Accts- though once more one can only wonder how a simple change like that could have taken so much time. Throwing the dog a bone, when they should be feeding it 3-4 times a day.. And most here have even learned to be happy with that alone.

    "The loyal slave learns to love the leash." :hahaha:
     
  14. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    just because people see val hammers and val made armor for sale doesn't mean a dupe exists, people could have hoarded their dupes a long time ago and bring them out little by little, they said they fixed the dupe a long time ago
     
  15. Lady Aalia

    Lady Aalia Atlantic's Finest
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    It allways amazes me that people will find stuff like that or try everything they can to find exployts...

    I mean who in there right mind spends 4 days nonstop untill they figured out that spinning 3 times while dragging a hamster on your curser will create a crimson in your pack ...but only if you killed yourself 7 times and db clicked an ainchient wyrm before...
     
  16. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    The ones from whom a lot of people in U.Hall buy gold from? :p
     
  17. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Part of it, I'll wager the most important part, is that whenever they make some big move against cheating of any stripe, they get slammed for it on these boards. Suddenly people come out of the woodwork saying they were banned unjustly, etc. And people for some reason believe these people who've curiously never been seen before.

    If you mean why they can't stop duping in the sense of plugging the holes and stopping it before it happens? That's an easy one. All games seem to have duping in one form or another.

    I'm not clicking on any of the links....But just from a Google search and scanning the small previews of sites that Google gives you, I can tell you that World of Warcraft has duping from something called a "rollback." I've discovered something called the "Eve Online Item Dupe Hack," and I've discovered manufacturer statements about duping in that game. I've discovered a site that teaches you how to dupe, and do other cheats, in Lord of the Rings Online of all games (or at least that's what the site says it does)....Yes, not even Tolken is immune to cheating. I discovered a YouTube video teaching you how to dupe in Warhammer Online.

    And that took under 5 minutes.

    They can't stop duping. No MMO, it seems, gets rid of it entirely. Let alone one that's 11+ years old.

    However, we as players can't simultaneously get mad at every anti-cheating measure EA takes and get mad at them for not taking anti-cheating measures.

    To believe someone you know personally or someone who is known on the boards for being honest who claims they were banned unjustly is one thing. But to believe someone who comes out of the woodwork and makes that claim, which is something we as board citizens have done, is just......Weird.

    In retrospect we should have let them implement Punkbuster. It wouldn't have stopped duping because that doesn't use 3rd party programs I don't think (Hell, for all I know I could be years behind-the-times on this stuff...last dupe I knew how to actually do involved Ice Dungeon and even then by the time I knew about it, it had already been fixed), but it would have done something about scripting, which is another major cheat in UO.

    Oh....And to those who say that duping doesn't harm the game or doesn't effect anyone? I fail to see how this argument can be supported with reality. First of all, if there's supposed to be 1 or 2 of an item, and now there's 5,000 of them, and you got the 1 or 2 of them legitimately, your item's going to be way under-valued. Secondly, some of the over-powered EM items, their very rarity was supposed to be the check on how over-powered they were. Later on, we got item property caps, and then there was an additional check. Third, and most importantly, this is a game, and when you sign on to play a game, you sign on to play that game by the rules, or else why play at all?

    Having said that, I'm suspecting more and more that the impact of cheating of all types, while substantial and worthy of attention, is exaggerated.

    -Galen's player
     
  18. it was a dupe with the bod.
    1,000 of hammers are out there.
     
  19. Hemisphere

    Hemisphere Always Present
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    Please. You think devs purposefully hold back on enforcing anti-duping policy because they don't want to upset the playerbase?

    That tells us nothing about duping policy though, or how quickly those dupes were fixed. If you can find information about a dupe on Google, chances are it's been fixed for a LONG time.

    Most games have very strict and quickly enforced policies on duping. UO's policies are also strict, when they actually take the time to identify the bug and the cheaters, but a lot of the time they simply don't (or can't) allocate the resources nescessary to do this effectively.

    Oh and of course the obligatory: "omg you KNEW a dupe bug? this now invalidates everything you've ever said or will ever say on Stratics or anywhere else because you're one of THEM" ;)
     
  20. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I had a very long post about this a long time ago, but I can't find it now even when I serach for my own posts. Is there a limit to how far the search will go back? Or was there another round of archiving?

    Short answer:

    The dev's aren't stupid, nor is this their fault. However, there are alot of very smart and unscrupulous players out there that will do anything to gain an unfair advantage.

    Much like kids out there trying to write virus or do hacks to prove they are smart. The anti virus companies can only release a fix after the virus has been created. When one virus is neutralized, another kid living in another country will create another newer virus.

    Similarly, devs can only fix dupes once they know of it's existence. When one dupe exploit is fixed, players will try to find another.

    The last dupe was the BoD dupe that affects only BoDs, not a traditional dupe that can dupe any item. Lots of illegal hammers and kits were duped. Identifying them was different from the traditinal dupes. Devs checked the logs, traced the exploiters and had a mass banning.

    They decided to give the benefit of doubt to those that did not have an unreasonably large amount of hammers sitting in banks/at home. But I am very sure all these accounts are in a list and are being watched.
     
  21. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    *sighs*

    Seriously?

    No. But I think it's discouraging to them when we clamour for something to be done, they do something, then we clamour negatively about what they've done.

    That was certainly true some years back, but I don't know if Google screens the way it used to. Even if it's still true, however, if I can find old dupes on Google in 5 minutes, I can find new dupes on a search engine with a .ru domain name in 20.

    The point, as you're far too smart to not realize, is that the question "why doesn't UO do something about duping" can be read in 2 ways. Why doesn't UO plug the holes that cause duping? Or, why doesn't UO take more stringent, quick actions on duping and dupers once dupes are discovered?

    Response to the first: Because they can't, not effectively, all games have duping to one degree or another.

    Response to the second: One important factor is that their most vocal customers actively discourage their most high-profile efforts.

    You're too smart to not realize what my intent was, however.

    -Galen's player
     
  22. DevilsOwn

    DevilsOwn Stratics Legend
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    do you remember a post from someone who had a Crimson Dragon for a hat? the way he got the dragon to sit on his head was that he found a section of wall somewhere that highlighted so he tried picking it up, then he tried wearing it......

    me, I'd never think to do something like that, but there are people that do :D and yeah, Avenhar, they continue to amaze me, also
     
  23. They cant stop duping anymore then Microsoft can stop people from fig out how to stop security flaws in windows for example. Someone is always going to find some way to do something else. Technology. Same with viruses Trojans ect. someone always finding a way to make a new one when the last one is squashed.