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Why do people like real skill?

Discussion in 'UO Tamer' started by TimberWolf, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    Wenchy's recent comments in the "why 120" thread made me want to start a discussion. So instead of hijacking that thread further I have started a new one.

    Also this is not a personal attack at any one person but more of a observation about certain attitudes.

    I guess what I really don't understand is this view that some people have that "real skill" is somehow better than "modified skill".

    There is no actual benefit to "real skill" but I have heard this repeatedly. There is almost a "snobbery" effect by players with real skill.

    It feels that they somehow believe they are more deserving, or better because they don't stoop to using jewelry.

    Now from my view point I think a greater achievement is packing every possible skill point I can onto a template.

    Personally I am not happy until I can cram at least 800 skill points on a 720pt template.

    I want to make my character as skilled and diverse as possible.
    The designers and developers obviously want us to have and use skill gain Jewelry. It isn't something that was accident stumbled upon. This is no glitch or unattended effect.

    This attitude isn't restricted to tamers by any means, but it seems that I see and read it most often in forums relating to taming and barding skills.

    Is it because those two "trades" ( Bards and Tamers) tend to attract the same style of players?

    What is it about skill jewelry that upsets some people? I understand if someone doesn't want to use it they shouldn't be forced or expected to. But in the same light if someone does use it they shouldn't be look down on, and they certainly shouldn't be disadvantaged in any way because of it.

    There are very few skills in UO that doesn't have skill gain Jewelry. Most or all of those don't have Power scrolls. Actually if I really looked back I am pretty sure skill gain Jewelry came out just after Power scrolls. Players with tight templates needed some way to add points to their templates.

    I can fully understand if a person chooses to have part or all of their template/character/account based entirely on true skills, but I hardly think this makes you a better player.

    Let face it, unless you do this will all of your skills on all of your templates you are also being a hypocrite on some levels. It is wrong to wear a +12taming/ +11 lore ring as part of your template....but it is ok to carry a +15 magery tomb of knowledge...or some other skill gain item?

    Maybe I could see it if a player used absolutely no skill gain items period on their account. Not for skill training...not to tweak their template. If someone did that with 7 characters, each set to 6x120, then perhaps it makes sense to me. Then it is an achievement. But otherwise I think it is just silliness that does little to build community.


    Now lets try to keep this relatively civil....if you feel the need to post in anger, then I ask you to walk away and take a moment. This is an attempt to have an intellectual discussion about attitudes, so please check your respective attitude at the door.
     
  2. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    I think personally it amounts to a few things,

    On tamers real skill is (imo) more important simply because you cannot get max luck without it, the 400luck jewels with 6/3 casting mr2 hpr2 (etoile blue set).

    I personally prefer to go real skill on my pure dexxer because skill jewels with hci, dci, fc/fcr is ridiculously expensive and extremely rare!!! With real skill i can somewhat afford to get rings with Hci and Dci and fc/fcr.

    I think people moan because it allows the so called "gimp" templates, these templates annoy people simply because(imo again :)) they are increadibly ingenious and powerful, by combining low level of skills to gain maximum efficiency.

    My thieves template for example has over 800 points (from a 705 max) and is extremely effective.

    In closing i personally think that jewels are a good thing as it has expanded the skill base and allowed for more creative uses of templates. I do however, think that maybe there should be just some kind of small recognition (other than title of which you can only display one skill) of actuallt legendarying a whole temlate(or gm and elder) maybe a seperate title below guild name saying Legendary veteran, Elder Veteran or Grand master veteran.
     
  3. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    Reason 1: For me, every item mod which goes toward skill that I should have been able to train myself is a mod that is taken away from something potentially useful in other ways, like DCI/FC/FCR/MR/luck on my tamer (other characters have different requirements). In the case of a tamer, that's less significant. For my other characters, they need all the mods they can get. For example, my first sampire template had about820 points in skills (used jewelery for other-than-necromancy enhancements and had 100 real points in necromancy). It was very effective, but when I got the right equipment to drop the skill total to 720 while still having all my mods loaded up, it was even MORE powerful.

    Reason 2: Pride. If I had 120 points in taming or discord, I could say that I've trained the skill that high. Those bragging rights don't come cheap. It may be more effective with the +skill jewelery (If you have 60 points of chivalry on a tamer thanks to +30 taming jewels and only 110 taming/lore/vet... it adds a lot of effectiveness against curses/mortal strikes), but then you would have to own up to taking the short-cut. Some people's pride won't let that happen.

    Reason 3: If you have a skill tied to a piece of equipment, you're pretty much locked into having THAT piece of equipment. For example, I have a character with a +14 taming ring. Now I can't change that ring out for the etoile bleue set that I really want to use. (I'm going to compromise and start hunting with a pair of bake, but that's a different thread)

    Personally, if people want to play like that, they can. I have trouble with the lack of flexibility in items that the +skills items require. That means that I'll be recommending to everyone who asks that they should use real skill rather than jeweled skill.
     
  4. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    I forgot to add that in actually, on my tamer he is using about +24taming on rings and brace (altho one is very nice +11taming 5 str 10%dci 2/1 casting) so unless i am not a tank and can use beetle bake i lose max casting (6/3 from set and -1 from vesper shield) 2mr and max luck :(
     
  5. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    <SNIP>
    (If you have 60 points of chivalry on a tamer thanks to +30 taming jewels and only 110 taming/lore/vet... it adds a lot of effectiveness against curses/mortal strikes),
    <SNIP>

    Wow great idea...but to me this is a reason to use skill gain items. In real life we call it, working smart not working hard. In RL most people wouldn't purposely make a job harder on themselves for no reason, so why would you in a game?

    I don't play games for the ego boost or too feel good about how hard I worked! I play games to have fun!
     
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Hey, I get blamed for everything around here! Ok, I'm usually the troublemaker, but still! *pouts*

    I think there is a challenge in cramming out a char too, I'd certainly agree with that. It's like building an uber PvP suit but not letting yourself buy items. I do that with my PvM suits and it's an ongoing thing, but I love it. Buying is easy, but not so much fun. Makes it satisfying when I get something great enhance successfully ;) I can understand that one person has a different personal challenge to another. And for me it's to have real skill trained so it replaces any item based skill.

    I try and cram as much as I can into 720 skill rather than go for something using 900 or so. I think there's a different idea of challenge in doing the two. One packs out the mods, the other has to juggle their skills to be more effective with less points. I was going to say you can't buy skill, but that's twaddle now, daft Wenchy. Though dang you'd be rich to buy 0 to 120 in taming scrolls lol! But hey, whatever floats your boat - seriously. But for me, it just feels easier to buy skill items than train skills. Like buying that super suit copared to hand building it. And yeah, I feel a bit lazy if I load up a newbie with gear and she's stepping up beside my older girls like a wee pretender. When you spent the time training up a 120 tamer, then replicate all those hours chasing bulls with a few jewels, I'm not sure how you'd feel anything else. Just feels badly wrong for me, sorry :( It's just such a contrast to chase those bulls manually and then make another char and twink her up. It does however make you feel entirely crazy to do it manually at all! 7 trained tamers may well have me in a straightjacket!

    Of course, we're not talking a lot of gold to get your instant 120 tamer either, that bugs me a bit. Cheap = easy to me. When I had to close an account at short notice, I made an advanced char tamer to save my old pets. I think that cost around 9 mil to do, think they're around that on my shard still. Which is what, a few dollars RL money? Even if you allowed for all the arties you needed, I'm sure less than $20 would cover an item tamer pretty well. Gold is easy to come by in UO even without throwing RL $ at it, so for me personally, it's a very easy and quick route to hit 120. 110 does fine. Lacking super mod equipment is an issue for some folks, but not me personally. I'm quite able to perform any task I want with the kit I've built up for myself. I wouldn't call it uber in any respect. So I'm not hugely swayed by the argument that an item tamer is suffering through lack of other mods. Especially given how many item tamers there seem to be ;) I worry more with my non tamers, but I often go out without any jewellery at all and get away with it fine.

    And, controversial and snobby as I get called for this belief. I think if you want something you should go out and train first. There, I said it! I'm really sorry that some folks don't like that view, or feel offended by it, but folks are entitled to their beliefs, and that's mine. I guess you argue the viewpoint you most want to defend. Mine is that you work for what you want in life, whatever that happens to be. I don't claim to be virtuous in this viewpoint at all, I'm just one of those folks who can't take anything that she didn't earn. I feel awkward asking my partner for £5 for something, if that tells you something ;)

    But all that aside, I recommend real skill because I find it's better to have the real skill for the pets they you use. 3 reasons -
    1 is incentive to train the damn skills so you can control and care for them
    2 saves you farting around with jewels at the stables or when you die
    and 3 is because even as a newly resurrected body I want my pets to come straight to me the minute I call, not after I've fumbled for my jewels. That's the clincher for me, I don't want my pets to die because of any twinking. None did when I tried it, but going from 120 real to 90 I hate the lack of control.

    My real irritation with the real skill thing is that while skills like hiding and spellweaving didn't have items created for them, something like animal taming did. I wish those taming items were never created in the first place. We have a powerful template but we don't *have* to work for it at all. I'm just not happy with that. I think any balance that comes to our profession will be seen as a bit shallow while tamers don't *have* to train before getting their pets. We have barely moved away from the 60 skill dragon touting newbies of old. I think folks are more tolerant of item tamers than they were when those newbies were running with 6 WWs, but I don't know if that's a good thing.

    And if we're going to talk snobby, what about the tamers who instead of using a pet like the kitsune which is at their skill level, they must have a greater dragon? I mean, that snobby line works in other ways, and I really get irked at players who just ignore good pets because they're not l33t enough. Or they think kits are newbie pets, whatever it is. Those are good pets, but everywhere I go there's a twink with a GD. I bet few even tamed a frenzy in their lives. If I'm a skill snob, can we please out the pet snobs among us?

    Anyways, flame away as appropriate, but remember my 120 stubborness and 119.9 in long post writing... Might get 120 with this thread hehe.

    Wenchy
     
  7. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    I hit 105 taming in about 2001. I have had it locked since. I could have 120ed 50 chars with the sheer about of pet sales ive done over the years. Anyone owning that real skill is better worked(dull) the skill instead of "playing" a tamer through the ranks.

    In fact when I started taming there were no stable slots and pre tames were a 0 skill. Meaning Id have to kill the spawn off then tame-kill. Also I remember taming out minoc to vesper to covetous and having a player attack me while all the sheep goats and bears were still blue to me(no followers) and a simple all kill would send 50+ low lvl critters into a frenzy!

    So dont tell me about not working for my skill. I just so happen to agree with the OP. More diversity is fundamentally necessary!
     
  8. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Well as I said, we pick our challenges, but at the same time, others are allowed to view things differently to you too. My pet customers are almost exclusively item users, so I have no issue with the tamers themselves - I supply them.

    As it happens I gained a stack on my younger tamers using items and working the cu spawn. I've made millions selling pups, and other pets, 1 blaze cu among em, so there's other ways of looking at it :) Pity the blaze didn't give me a gain, but maybe the next might.

    Wenchy
     
  9. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Ive made multiple posts looking for template tweeks on my tamers and on every one of them you have insulted my use of skill items!

    Im flaberghasted youd say this. Oh right they are giving you gold I see how it is with you!
     
  10. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Personally i think that no-one should really comment on how someone wants to gain there skills...im at about 95 ish taming on 2 chars and go and get my daily gains, but ill be F**KED if you think im not going to play those chars(one uses a dread and the other uses a variety of many pets) because i cant control the pet neccessary for the task im undertaking.

    Tried soloing a Grizz with a bake?!?
     
  11. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    I have all my taming in 'real' skill, because there's no way in hell I'd remember not to command my pet till after I got dressed when I died. However I do have skill points in chiv on my jewels. It lets me do miasma with the ability to remove mortal from the pet, I also keep an eye on my pet's stats when up against big hitters so I can counter when my pet gets cursed.

    Having said that I've little patience for those who have never trained *any* part of their skill. Bought the char, bought the scrolls, bought the jewels, bought the pet, never tamed so much as a mongbat. They've never learned how to play the skill set. Training a character is a learning experience for the player as well as the char.
    adding a bit to trained skill, yes, replacing training completely, a resounding no.
     
  12. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    My brother 120ed his taming on dagger(ice) island on white wolves! 3rd and 4th pre tames. I know he looks down his nose at me sometimes but I know he was bitterly seeking that gain for months on end(years after i 105ed).

    But what petra said, I dont realy go for that either. Now it is kinda shameful for me to have worked so hard for something someone else bought for -"gold"- but to me the taming experience wasnt so much fun as maybe our pride like us to think.
     
  13. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    Well, I offered suggestions and you took offense, I remember it well, but you don't have to worry about me doing that again heh :) I think you need to realise that while I don't like the use of items, that doesn't mean I dislike you because you use them. The two aren't the same. If someone tells me my template is crap, I don't take that to mean I suck. The criticism was of the template, not me. I pick what I want from what's suggested and use it. If I have a problem with a player, the last thing I'll do is tell them how I think they could improve their template. Why would I say "hey, you might have a pet throw a strop" if I was thinking "I hope your dragon eats you?" :D

    If you have an issue with the fact I trained on cu's for a while instead of bulls, I couldn't care less. It beat the boredom for a while and aside from the few pups I sold for a decent price, I also gave away plenty too. If you think I did it for the gold, it shows quite how little you know me. I only mentioned it to suggest that instead of being bored chasing bulls, you could still make a good bit of gold taming pets for sale while you gained. I probably should have worded that better, but I didn't.

    Wenchy
     
  14. Escaflowne

    Escaflowne Crazed Zealot
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    Who are these peasants without real skill?! :D
     
  15. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    Wenchy, please don't think I was attacking or even speaking directly toward you. You are hardly the only person that shares that particular view point.

    You are how ever the one that got my "hamster moving on the tread wheel" this morning.

    I am one of those guys that bought a Tamer advanced character token.

    From the day I got UO I wanted to solo treasure maps. The best template to do that was as a tamer treasure hunter.

    I bought the tamer advanced token cause I was damned if I was gonna train lockpicking, cartography and taming...lol.

    I built a great lock pick house, and started with very low level maps. I search each chest I popped taking only the best taming jewelry I could find. Slowly finding the armour and items I would need for a very very tight template.

    Slowly I train Lockpicking and cartography up...I saved up for PS, and ultimately even did some champing even.

    At the launch of ML I was ready, well I was ready before that but finally there was a pet that could solo a lvl 6 map. The lower level maps were difficult for me, but the level 6 maps I had fail at repeatedly.


    My Cu and I went on to solo every single level six map location ( including dot island)!

    Then some genius decided that Lich Lords should use necro spells and wither.....the *******.

    I have never succeeded at another solo lvl 6 since. After just a couple tries I quick Treasure hunting all together.

    I still hosted groups and helped out others but my days as a solo hunter was over.

    I even drifted away from UO for a year, only just recently returning. What brought me back?? I won't deny that part of the draw was the idea that I might just solo lvl 6's again with a Grt Dragon.

    I know I could never have made my solo treasure hunter without Jewelry.

    My original template was:
    110 taming 110 lore
    110 vet
    100 lock pick
    100 carto
    100 med
    100 magery.

    Not very tight by today's standards, but I was proud of it 6 years ago.

    then came lvl 6 maps....I need music and peace to help me out of tight spots.
    The suit got changed for a 60's suit with lots of MR, I would carry regs but those were abundant in chests so no worries.

    My template became:
    115 taming 115 lore
    115 vet
    100 lock pick ( 100 carto soul stoned and swapped in and out)
    100 music
    100 peace
    100 magery.

    With my Cu I was unstoppable...lol!

    I even use to dig for groups and various clubs weekly. when the spawn popped I would just stay invisable so they could all have their fun and die.
    If I helped it was too boring for them.

    Now I have been back a month....and before I took my break I did alot of champing..Now my template is:

    120 taming/lore/vet
    120 magery
    100 music
    100 peace
    100 lockpicking ( carto)

    my suit is 100 lrc/60's with 10 MR

    I was given a Grt Dragon...but I sold it. I want to tame my own.....tame it train it...and then head back to the islands and my stack of tattered ingenious maps. Time will tell if I can do it or not...but it has been fun preparing for it so far.

    My point in writing all this out....
    Two fold, to prove I can be long winded too...and to establish that all of these templates are impossible without skill gain items.

    I can honestly say.....I never trained taming until recently to get the pts I needed to reach 120. If I got gains...it was from taming pets for my stable or for friends.

    My real taming skill even now is only 93, and was in the high 80's until recently.
    My only indulgence is I let lore go to 120 only because I like the name Legendary Ranger!

    While real skill tamers were off taming bulls.....I was off fighting with my pets...chewing through monsters.

    Who do you think had more fun?
     
  16. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    oh and Wenchy for the record....I did take offense to one thing....I maybe easy...but I am not cheap...the two aren't synonymous!
    :)
     
  17. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    I've got both, a fully 120'd tamer, another that is close, and a third that is only around 107 taming with a +8 ring (killer ring too hehe) to make her 115. The proudest moment in UO for me came when I hit 120 on that last freaking unicorn...and I will admit it was a grind but WELL worth it. I do think there should be a "bonus" of some kind for legendary tamers, beyond stall space, simply because there is NO skill in this game that is as difficult and time consuming to work. None. I can legendary any skill in this game other than taming in a few days to a couple weeks of grinding it, not so with taming.

    With that said, one additional concern for tamers that jewel up is if they are playing factions. Stat loss can put you at a level that doesn't allow you to control your pet, even with jewels. Yes, there are ways around that, but it is something else to consider. With that said, I think to each their own. I try not to be "snobbish" with my legendary tamer, but it IS something I worked a long time for and am very proud to have the title show in the paperdoll.
     
  18. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    No I haven't solo'd a grizz with a bake. When my tamers were just on bakes they didn't have the support skills in place to support even item skills. I kept their skill cap low to get the max gains for the start and then worked them up when it got more boring. Even then, I wouldn't entertain trying to solo grizz with one of my younger tamers.

    Bakes aren't poor just because you can't solo grizz with them. There have been folks using them on crimson dragons, and I've seen a PvPer cause carnage with 2 kits, and I use them for a wide variety of hunts, so I think that's damn good for an 85 skill pet. A young tamer can have a lot of fun without touching grizz or owning a dread or greater drag.

    Wenchy
     
  19. RichDC

    RichDC Guest


    Agreed, i was merely making the point that sometimes i wanted to try things hard and solo, that required me having at least a hiryu and i couldnt do this as a "young" tamer. So skill jewels were Essential for my play style and fun.
     
  20. TimberWolf

    TimberWolf Babbling Loonie
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    Now maybe...but before the invent of the RNG I would put 100 lockpicking up against 100 taming any day!

    Bards might dispute your claim as well....but I can't say for sure since I "Twink" my bard too!
    lol
     
  21. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
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    LOL!!

    Ach don't worry, you can't offend me and I know you're not overly sensitive either, so no worries there. With the tamers forum I always figured regardless of any opinion differences, we're all still tamers and can agree or disagree without hating each other afterward. Mind you, I'm probably far from most popular tamer these days, but I know I'm a lot less tolerant of skill items than I used to be. Guess you get more annoyed at some things the more you see them. It's like chipped paint :D

    I know what you mean about having fun though, I'd go nuts if I didn't have the kitsune. I remember when you had frenzies and ages of training to get one of the big guys, even though they're far from "big" these days :( If I wasn't racing all the other tamers at the time I doubt I'd have stuck at it so well. But kits for me are like the new frenzy, they're maybe not the biggest guns, but killing a mob then giggling = priceless. No greater will be more popular with me than a kit ;)

    In all honesty, I'd love to see tamers use pets other than the latest fancy one all the time and just have a bit of fun, not just go for power this or that. Build a good pack, train up a smaller beastie and see what it can handle. I think there's so much more than just power power power, if that makes sense. Too much emphasis on what you can stretch skills to owning rather than what might be a fun pet to mess around with. I wasn't ever that serious with my first tamer.

    Wenchy
     
  22. ianubisi

    ianubisi Guest

    Play the way you want to play.
     
  23. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Here are my reasons for attempting to get real skills as high as I can on my tamer characters:

    - I worry that EA will at some point get rid of skill jewelry or nerf it to the point where it makes little sense to use it. If that happens, I still want to be able to use my tamer characters and all the pets they currently own. I don't want to see a nerf like this hit and end up owning pets I won't be able to use for a long long time if I've left taming skill low and relied heavily on skill-enhancing items.

    - A long time ago, a friend of mine who no longer plays UO lost a pet after she was freshly rezzed and started commanding the pet before reequipping all her gear. We were both still pretty new to taming at the time and I guess the incident stuck in my head for quite a while and was good incentive to keep going with the taming.

    - I love having the flexibility to swap out jewelry and talismans without having to worry about pet control issues.

    - And yes, I'd be lying if I didn't say there's a bit of vanity involved in finally being able to see the words "Legendary Tamer" on your character's paper doll after all the time spent slowly raising the skill to 120.
     
  24. I guess the biggest reason that I never used +skill taming or lore jewlery is that I had GM'ed both skills before +skill items existed.

    I don't have a problem with other people using them...it is their choice, but I do think there should some reward to putting in all those long hours of working the skill up.

    The best reasons I can come up with for using real skill vs. jewels are:

    - You don't have to worry about losing your jewels in some momentary lapse of reason when changing things on your character. If you forget to insure them, or worse...there is a bug, you are screwed. You will not only lose your jewels but also your pet(s) if you don't have enough skill to command them without your jewels.

    - Having the Ring and Bracelet spots open allow you to use other mods. Like someone said above, you can get higher luck and better FC and FCR, or anything else you choose.

    - Having the title shows that you put the work in (or that you spent the money or ran a script or something).

    Besides that, I cannot see a real downside to using the jewels. It does provide you with more skill points in your template, and you get all the benefits of being a tamer without putting in the work. That's great if that's what you want.

    I still do think that a Greater Dragon should only be tamable and usable by 120/120 real skill though. Just a reward for putting in the work. Or at least make a Greater Dragon that looks different that requires real skill 120/120.
     
  25. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
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    LOL. Well, I've done legendary disco three times and legendary provo twice, but I've only done lockpicking in the post-RNG era so I can't speak for that one. I can still do disco in less than two weeks, so my vote stays with taming.
     
  26. sean_lo

    sean_lo Guest

    With jewelry, luck stone, and the correct equipment, my tamer template has:

    120 discord, 120 peace, 120 music
    115 taming, 118 animal lore, 100 vet, 100 magery

    Luck total: 2000 with luck stone.

    So yeah, i think you're not exploiting your character to its fullest potential if you let pride of real skill vs modified get in the way.