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Why do you think the devs have always ignored the players?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by TheScoundrelRico, May 25, 2010.

  1. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Publish after publish it has always seemed the developers merely ignore the people who pay their salaries. Suggestions have been given by well intentioned players of UO for over a decade now, and for the most part, aside from a few things, the calls of the palyers have always fallen on deaf ears.

    Why do you suppose that is? I'm curious to see where this discussion goes and if a developer may give their honest opinion on the subject (as opposed to their normal ignoring of topics ie Siege Perilous)...la
     
  2. Mishkam

    Mishkam Visitor

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    stand on a chair next time you say something
     
  3. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    I think its unfair to say the Devs ignore the players, Lets take a look at the whole water wave situation.

    They announced it wasn't removed, people complain, They bring out a larger water pitcher within a day or two.

    Sounds like they are listening to us!
     
  4. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Of course you'd say it's unfair...la
     
  5. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    If anyone is curious as to what spurred both this post and Rico's sudden reappearance:

    The new management of Stratics took one look at Off-Topic:No Holds Barred, and immediately deleted it and replaced it with a "General OT" forum that is under the RoC (I.e. not in any way No Holds Barred). The former denizens of OT:NHB are now committed to invading the rest of the Stratics forums and coming as close as possible to getting banned without actually getting banned.

    So good luck to all in the coming weeks.
     
  6. rayvowrath

    rayvowrath Guest

    I think its unfair to claim that they have "always ignored" players.

    On the other side though, I do think there needs to be better lines of communication.
     
  7. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    Sudden?

    OT: Please feel free to take a look at my posting history. I may not have posted that much here, but I have been posting in this forum long before this change took place. So instead of trying to be the class tattle tale, do a little research before spouting off.

    Back on topic: Anyway, this post is more of a large scale indictment than the little things that have been corrected from time to time over the years. The suggestions by players in a large scale have been ignored. Why do you think that is?...la
     
  8. Mapper

    Mapper Crazed Zealot
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    I wish them all the best of luck, That change I didn't even know about and after hearing it, I really really hate it.
     
  9. I think this post is more of a "WHY DON'T YOU EVER LISTEN TO MY IDEAS!!!" rather than the Developers "always" ignoring the players input. They have and do make changes based on player input. However, just because you (or me for that matter) has an opinion, doesn't mean it's a good one.
     
  10. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    I think they ignore big ideas and big changes, partly because they are hardly ever well thought out and partly because that is what THEY are paid to do. to do their job they have to be excited about the project they are working on. so I can see how it might be easy to do little things here and there, but for the most part they need to focus on specific long-term goals.

    I do think they deserve criticism for seeming to ignore big problems in the game at various periods over the past 13 years.

    next topic?
     
  11. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    No, what I do believe is that most players do not know how much development time goes into a publish. It's not "Oh Pub 65 is out the door lets start on Pub 66", no it's more like "Pub 60 is out the door hows those changes for Pub 66 coming?"

    Things are being worked on months in advance, some things can be altered quickly (like the water pitchers with 40 uses), while others take huge amounts of time and testing to ensure they work correctly. For players to read a Publish Note and then complain about changes and demanding alterations can mean weeks or months of delays for it to be coded and tested.
     
  12. Cyric

    Cyric Guest

    Yeah well if the devs do listen what ruh-tard asked for neon colors?
     
  13. Guido_LS

    Guido_LS Seasoned Veteran
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    The answer is actually relatively simple.

    First, I don't think they ignore the suggestions - I think it's more to the effect of noted, then discarded.

    One of the problems is that there is too much diversity in the player base. Too many cliques, if you prefer. And the devs are betting that if you do something that pleases clique A, you are going to make clique B mad enough to quit. In their minds, it's safer to make everyone mad at once, and betting that, with the general mentality of the UO playerbase (that being, for all its faults, there's still nothing better), they aren't going to go anywhere. This is especially true since AoS - there's been nothing remotely close to the wide-sweeping changes since then.

    Then there's the silk purse out of a sows ear mentality - and in the current era of MMO's, and gaming in general, UO is a sows ear. Sure, there is a rapidly decreasing contingent that thinks that overhead 2d is the best thing out there, but that crowd is shrinking, and has been obsolete for years. I think that, secretly, the devs and EA wished that we would just go away. There's really no such thing as an unemployed game developer. They just go to work for a different company, or go into a different branch of computer work. Especially if they are good, or have a *name*. I have no empirical numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that the start-ups are very close to being on par with the number of lay offs we are seeing.

    I see the second biggest problem being EA itself. I think they finally realize that, when it comes to MMO's, they suck. Other than UO, they have yet to front a successful title, and in the overall scheme of things, UO is a fart in the wind compared to any other successful MMO, starting with Everquest, and going all the way through to WoW. There's been nothing innovative or cutting edge in UO since, well, 1997. And again, I think the blame can be squarely laid at the feet of EA. (Some) people gripe about the lack of a decent 3d client. It's not like they haven't had the staff or talent to do it. They've never had the complete backing to do it. And yes, it can be done - Everquest did a complete and total change from a Glide based client to a DX based client back when Shadows of Luclin came out. And it brought them into a more modern era. EA abandoned the Third Dawn client (arguably the best of the new ones). They abandoned the KR client. And the SA client is just a watered down, bestiality induced offspring of the KR client and a dinosaur 2d client. And given the fact that UO has licensed one of the best 3d engines on the market right now, that's a damned shame.

    Finally, the biggest problem of all? The players. Especially the ones on Stratics. Just about everyone here has this giant sense of entitlement - that somehow, EA/Mythic *OWES* them something. And to a degree, they are correct. The issue is, nobody can, or will, agree to what it is they are owed, or deserved. There's the faction that feels they are owed a classic server. There's the faction that feels they are owed something on Siege. There's the faction that says they are owed something when it comes to T-Hunting/Fishing... crafting... PvP... PvM... hell, there's even a multi-tiered faction that, in one form or another, is advocating their right to cheat. And, right or wrong, the primary activity has not been discussion, but rather, shouting the other group down, and, somewhat humorously, shouting down people in their own faction. It makes UO, which is supposed to be *THE* sandbox, seem more like a sandbox at the local kindergarten or nursery school. And like them, loath them, whatever, the one thing the devs don't have to be is Ms. Sally from Romper Room.

    And, given that, is it any real surprise that the devs, on occasion, push the mute button?
     
  14. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    My work schedules are like this but I gotta go with the crowd on this topic. Altho a couple recent teams have tried to do right by us, it seems to go to poo real fast.

    1. As has been noted ... who wanted neon colors? <shrug>
    2. Why do nerf-sticks/bats appear before 30 days of production in order to "fix" something? I'm not talking of correction to an unbalancing flaw but simply changing the way something works or affects things or is affected by stuff.
    2a. Why was that unbalancing flaw allowed to go into production anyway? Especially if records from TC or whatever indicate it was reported before going prodo?
    2b. Then again, is TC actually producing results and feedback on flaws at all? Are any submitted reports even looked at before stuff goes prodo or is it "damn the testing, meet the schedule!" That seems to be the norm an awful lot.
    3. How come seemingly small issues like stacking of similar items take years to get fixed ... if they get fixed at all?

    These are just questions from my pointy little head as I munch on a sandwich at lunch. Feel free to add to this or cast all sorts of nasty words at me.
     
  15. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Easy answer on this one, but first I congratulate you on a good post. I think you've hit the nail on the head in several areas. But on to the debt as is owed to __me__ - as I see it.

    #1. When the rates increased oh so many years ago, a statement of delivering better and more stable gaming servers was made. Seems to have worked. :thumbup1:

    #2. When the rates increased oh so many years ago, a statement of better in-game service by CS was made. Ummm, someone forgot to send CS the memo, as in general in-game service has actually degraded IMO.:thumbdown: I am owed that I believe.

    #3. When I am told that a new client with improved graphics is on the way, I really expect crisper artwork and animations than what currently exists in the EC. I realize a lot has to do with compatibility to CC but come on ... I have an ethereal mount that moonwalks! It just isn't quite "there" yet. :thumbdown:

    #4. Last week Cal mentioned more in a couple days on what's going on. Calendar-wise it's been something like 4 or 5 days now. Nothing. Don't let thy pen make statements ye cannot keep. I'm owed. :thumbdown:

    I think if I didn't need a smoke break, I could come up with more.
     
  16. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    I'm not saying I don't support your quest, however quixotic it may be, as what the Stratics upper management did was fairly idiotic. I'm just stating the facts.

    Furthermore, it looks like "General OT" has now also been deleted. Good show, Stratics!
     
  17. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    And they stole about 10k of my posts. GUARDS!!!...la
     
  18. jtw1984

    jtw1984 Seasoned Veteran
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    I think the devs listen too much. Which seems to be a problem.
     
  19. Cogniac

    Cogniac Grand Inquisitor
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    To actually contribute something to the ostensible "topic at hand":
    Everyone seems to be operating under this misguided belief that the developers are somehow a completely different species than the players; that they are of some breed of demi-god that are universally magnanimous and beneficent at all times. They are not.

    Every time someone in UHall suggests an idea for some sort of game improvement or new system, they are enthused about it because it's their idea, and they want the developers to work on their idea. The developers, also being human beings, are the same way. They want to work on their ideas, not someone else's.

    UHallers and developers have both come up with some bad ideas over the years. The only difference between these two groups is that the development team gets to actually decide what the development team works on.
     
  20. I don't think it is a question of the devs ignoring players...rather a question of being inundated with feedback and not being able to sort through it all. Almost every person that plays UO has something they would like to see changed or added to the game. The devs also have people above them that have a larger say in the matter than the players do.

    A good example of this is the Classic Shard "debate". Many of us want it, some don't want it, some don't care...but you can't say that the devs are ignoring everyone in that situation no matter what happens...because in the end, at least 2 of those groups are going to get what they want. If the devs listen to the Classic fans, and create a new shard...then they were not ignored. If they don't do it...then the people that didn't want get what they want.

    I think Rico's original post boils down to the requests that have been sent to the devs regarding Siege. I honestly have no idea why no one has responded on that. I hate to say it, but I am starting to believe that the lack of response is in fact a response in itself.
     
  21. yars

    yars Lore Keeper
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    players are like children, you dont always give them what they want, only what they need
     
  22. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    I believe people paying for the game to exist are the ones who should dictate what they need, not those being paid.
     
  23. ACB1961

    ACB1961 Lore Keeper
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    Actually, a lot of things have been changed in the past year because of posts here.

    I'd list some of them, but most of us already know what they were.

    We all want different things. There's no way they could ever make even half of us happy if they worked on it full time.
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    Yes there have been some good ideas posted here on UOStratics, but you are ASSUMING (and we all know what that word breaks down to) that UOStratics speaks for all of UO. I think that half the players are on Asian shards and do not use this forum and of the people that are on UOStratics do not represent the majority of the rest of the UO player base. If UO wants to use ideas that the player come up with here on UOStratics then they need to put in a poll at log-on or some way to direct all players in UO to UOStratics or UO.com with these ideas listed and then direct them to join the discussion on UOStratics.

    Until all players have a say on how UO is to proceed then it is up to the Devs to make that choice, after all it is their game.

    Weren’t all the changes made to the crafting menus made due to ideas posted to UOStratics by the players?

    Do not forget all the nerfs to different play styles because all the whining here on UOStratics.

    Just because they do not take all the ideas doesn’t mean they do not listen.
     
  25. I know for a fact that they changed the Rune Beetle from white (wth were they thinking) to black in KR/EC because of my posts here.

    You are welcome btw. :)
     
  26. Lost-Soul

    Lost-Soul Guest

    Just don't say it more than once. You might get banned.
     
  27. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Because they don't like our ideas?

    And likely they do not get approved by the higher ups anyway.
     
  28. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    Just something to throw out into this discussion...

    Are the devs right to listen just to the players that remain, or should they also take more heed of those who've left?

    By the latter, I would assume it would make sense to get the input of sufficient former players, in order to know why they've left, what changes to the game encouraged their leaving, what can be done to bring them back.

    I'm always interested to try and understand the directions the developers are thinking from. This door swings both ways and it's always important to engage with the players.

    Effectively though, it's EA that call the shots, not the developers themselves. They might have a certain amount of development autonomy, but it's about the bottom line targets, budgetary targets. Where these factors are brought into play, I do sympathise with the developers and the limitations they may face, because their creativity is restricted as a result.

    Ultimately, the developers might have superb ideas. Ones they've thought of themselves, ideas from players, influences from other sources. How much leeway they have to run with those ideas, is something else entirely.
     
  29. Just Do It

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    Because its obvious from their deaf ears they dont care about sp and frankly i dont care to pay their salaries anymore
     
  30. Tay M'real

    Tay M'real Guest

    I think they listen - just not as much as they probably should. But it's not the developers that make the decisions, it's the management above them.

    Growth is in new subscribers, not current ones...so if you want more money - you need to attract new players - so they want to stay on pace to include everything WoW has without looking like a cartoon.
     
  31. Tukaram

    Tukaram Guest

    They really need to question players that are quitting as to why. When I canceled my City of Heroes account I got a questionnaire asking why I was leaving and what would bring me back. (I think LOTR did too but I'm not positive.)

    Over the last few years I have canceled 7 UO accounts (mine and my son's). Not once did they ask why I was leaving or what would bring me back. If they want to fix problems they really should ask the people that speak with their wallets.

    But be advised that seems to be why they made Trammel. I, and many others, quit but came back after the introduction of Trammel. So depending on who they ask you may or may not like the results.
     
  32. LeBaiton

    LeBaiton New Player Protector
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    Well said, Guido. I find myself in complete agreement with what you´ve just stated :)
     
  33. Flora Green

    Flora Green Guest

    Oh dear, I can't post some places.
     
  34. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    I would like to take this moment to thank the Dev's for being all Devy and for listening. Seriously.

    just because they don't bend to your demands does not mean the Dev's don't listen. get a grip.
     
  35. EricVT

    EricVT Adventurer
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    Why do you end every post in 'la'?
     
  36. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Good point ... I think those who have left (for other MMO, FS, whatever ...) should have some say to the Devs as to they WHY of departure.

    I make no bones about it ... I played from 1998 until AOS. I left for just about a year - I was so hacked off about the changes that totally messed up a damn fine warrior I had.

    It took that long to cool off and even consider a return. I intensely dislike the AOS changes except for custom housing and 1 or 2 other things.

    I would hope the Dev team or researcher for them can reach some of the departed ones and hopefully get some really good feedback.
     
  37. Ultima_Dork

    Ultima_Dork Grand Poobah
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    now see here newbus...

    back in the day -when uo.com boards were taken down this place went nuts. people were all over the place going nuts!

    Now - you dare to speak of our OT getting ripped from our hands? What would YOU do if they came in and said - nope - uo sucks, we are taking down these forums. I think youd see why OT is so ticked off.
     
  38. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Based on the last main EC patch (and the two subsequent ones), I'd say SOMEONE is listening. We've been asking to allow font inclusion, and for some old 3d functionality (expandable containers, dropping items on health bars) for a long time, they listened quickly to a b ug with object handles and then replaced pet bars based on player feedback.

    Seems like listening to me.
     
  39. Flora Green

    Flora Green Guest

    Stop talking sense, Aran.
     
  40. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Right, about last year or so the Dev team started getting good again. Previously, yea, the teams were pretty bad for a long time.

    That being said, Siege has always been categorically ignored.
    Really, it's pathetic how bad SP has had it. Simple mistakes that could have been fixed in 10 minutes... take years and years.
     
  41. AesSedai

    AesSedai Guest

    - I bet he'll evade answering you, or in essence ignore your question (just playing, he likes that to be a bit of a secret, and good for him).

    Regarding the subject title: the devs have clearly always listened to player feedback, although I'm positive they can't see it all (might even be why ZigZag is a liaison for them now); and quite often they have made changes as well as add things to UO solely due to what players have suggested. So, your subject line is false supposition - I know this for a fact.
     
  42. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    So then,

    "Why do you think Rico have always ignored the players?" (or repeatedly avoid answering the question) :D



    From the water barrel/water pitcher changes, cavern of discarded changes, imbuing changes, disabling arty imbuing, anti cheat changes, turkey event changes, bring back EMs etc etc etc, I know they are listening to player feedback.

    Though as players, we might disagree on what the devs chose to act on, how they should prioritize it and be frustrated on why they seem to remain silent on other issues. We always seem to know better than the devs don't we?
     
  43. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    What are you talking about?
    I as a player feel not ignored.
     
  44. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    They may have listened to the players on this one, but the real question is why did they waste the time on this change to begin with?

    The EC is one aspect of UO where the Dev Team really needs to be actively talking to the players and fixing bugs - not making random unasked for changes.

    I'd like to see BTeng being more proactive on the EC board, talking to those who use the client about what it needs. Coming to us with their ideas for changes before the blind implementation of something we may dislike or not want (and thus rail against). OR *gasp* they could reopen the official beta boards and be even more direct.

    (going on 4 years, KR life included, of beta is a very bad thing...)
     
  45. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Because developers are hired to bring in their ideas and visions.

    It took quite some time to convince Tact that a polymorph toggle switch was not evil. Just from his design standpoint he would have rather used something else, but as the toggle was a quick fix for a very small problem it got implemented after some pressuring.

    So keep at it pestering them
    :)
     
  46. They do listen sometimes. The Salvage Bag is blue because I suggested it would be a better color for all than the dark red they were going to go with originally. They've also made several changes to game systems to be more "color-vision" friendly because of suggestions I, and others, have made.
     
  47. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    "have always"........they don't.

    Sounds like a personal problem to me.




    later
     
  48. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
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    We've never had a dev team more obviously paying attention to what their clients have to say than this one, and I've never seen another dev team for any other game more obviously listening than this one.
     
  49. The palmer

    The palmer Visitor

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    I don't think the issue is the Devs not listening to players, but that the devs listen to the vocal minority of idiots that think neon elemental based weapons are the shizzle, and that the game needed to be turned into nothing more than repeating tasks for pixelcrack rather than left as a game where people could properly interact with each other
     
  50. Pretty much this.