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Why don't they listen? (Please add to this)

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Mar 14, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm sorry, call me ignorant, but I don't understand why the team doesn't listen to us players. They propose something, we tell them why it shouldn't be implemented, and they do it anyway. We know better then they do because we play more collectively and even individually then they do. We're also the ones paying them, if the majority of the players want something, and it doesn't take unreasonable amounts of time, it should be done.

    There are a lot of examples where the players, in a vast majority, expressed their opinions and the team went against those opinions. I've listed a recent two, but please add to the list.

    1)In the poll asking what we think of the BoS change the majority of players were strongly against it, yet it still stays. Not only do we think going back to the old system would be better, but we've even explained other systems that would be even better then either, yet still we're stuck with useless bags of sending.

    2)When the petball changes were brought up the first time we pointed out that the delay in summoning pets would adversely effect PvP and remounting, but still the plan is to go ahead with this (as posted today, friday). There were several threads on this, with nearly everyone being of hte same opinion, that this would be a bad change. A beautiful proposition of scaling the summoning time was even proposed, yet it's ignored.

    All we ask is that the team listens to those who pay their wages.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Yes,

    EAMythic should listen, but ultimately it is their game. We only pay for access to the servers.

    Yes, collectively we play the game more then they do, but if they held off on changes everytime a player or a group of players wishes to debate changes, many changes will take even longer to implement. If implemented at all.

    Yes, we players should keep pointing out why proposed changes, will not work, or will hamper game play in ways long time players can forsee.

    One wish I have is that if the make changes and then recognize they made an error. just come out and tell us "we screwed up" we going to change things back.

    It should not take years, and people leaving the game (as producers, etc) for them to admit errors to the game. I am sure you can come up with a list of errors, but that is another topic.

    One wishes for things to be completed once started, UO has a terrible history of starting a system(s) then never finishing it. Again there is quite a list.

    I am glad that there has been some movement on correcting problems within UO. It a good start, but it only a start. EAMythic needs to keep this up.

    I would still like to know why:

    we do not have commas (periods/slashes/dots/asterisks or something) in our checks to make it easier to read to prevent scams?

    why is granite, sand, arcane gems, and any other thing I forgot which should stack are still not stackable?


    So yes they should listen, but not every suggestion made by players is for the good of the game.

    I like flame-boiled hamburgers, thats the way I think they taste best. But I am not going to go into McDonald's tonight and tell them, they have to make their burgers that way. They provide the service/product, I can suggest they add to their menu since I pay for their service/product, but I can not tell them how they should provide their service/product. If I do not like their service/product, I can go down the road to Burger King, who have the same type of service/product but done their way(flame-boiled).
     
  3. Fluffi

    Fluffi Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Joined:
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    *snip*
    <blockquote><hr>

    2)When the petball changes were brought up the first time we pointed out that the delay in summoning pets would adversely effect PvP and remounting, but still the plan is to go ahead with this (as posted today, friday). There were several threads on this, with nearly everyone being of hte same opinion, that this would be a bad change. A beautiful proposition of scaling the summoning time was even proposed, yet it's ignored.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Which was the thread in which "nearly everyone" thought that the proposed nerfs were bad? Link please.


    Leurocians' thread with 175 responses had ONE objection on the grounds that you have quoted.
    It also had positive responses from PvPers dexers/mages.
    And positive responses from PvP tamers.
    And positive responses from PvM tamers.
    And positive responses from tamers who both PvP and PvM.


    That hardly seems like "nearly everyone objecting." [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  4. Oh how you have hit the nail on the head! I posted on the Bags Of Sending earlier. To think that 65%+ of the players according to the survey do not like the changes to the BOS and yet they consider it a success is unbelievable. If a manager in my company came to me and said we are going to make a change that will make 65% of our customers unhappy, I'd say "and just where are you planning on working tommorrow?" There is no way the CEO of EA has any idea of whats going on here. Not unless he is trying his best to destroy UO too. The problem with scriptors could have easily been solved by limiting the amount of gold that could be sent in one day by one account. But apparently no one wanted to take the time to find some other creative solution. If even two honest players quit the game or have been moved one step closer to leaving because of this change it was too many. Some how somewhere along the way it has become illegal to make gold. No where in the Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service does it say a player cannot make too much gold. What it does say is you cannot use UNATTENDED MACROING. If some player want to spend 24/7 gathering gold then that is their business. But if they attempt to do it using a third party program or unattended macroing then they need to be banned. It is not the making of gold that is illegal, but these changes have managed to make it that way.

    I cannot respond on the pet ball summoning other than to say I was totally disappointed that the only changes being made to the pets were things that impacted PvP. Other problems related to pet health bars, pets taking off to be intantly killed immediately after resurrection, pets taking off when owner logs in and out and many other problems are not even going to be considered.
     
  5. They do listen and to be frank, you're being hard headed. For starters, polls on stratics are never representative of the player base as a whole because most players don't go to stratics boards AT ALL.

    The BoS nerf was direct response to player feedback. Players have been complaining for years about how gold is meaningless and everything costs too much. The devs nerfed the BoS and immediately weakened the gold selling industry and increased the relevance of gold. It will take a while for the UO economy to heal from where it was, but the BoS nerf has definitely had a positive impact on the UO economy. I've actually felt like it has been worth looting gold... that hadn't happened in years!

    on point 2... The pet ball nerf was ABSOLUTELY a direct response to player feedback. Just because a small minority of players complained that it would prevent them from summoning a mount when they get dismounted doesn't mean the change as a whole is directly against player feedback. I don't know how you can read these boards and come to the conclusion that the pet ball nerf was an example of the devs not listening to players. I can see how a dev would find it offensive that you've even said this. You're being RIDICULOUS!

    Both changes have made UO a better place. Both changes were responsible developer responses to player feedback.

    The pet ball nerf was a collection of player-suggested nerfs that were run through a dev filter. The pet ball nerf is nothing but a direct response to player feedback and your claim that the devs didn't listen to players on that nerf is asinine.
     
  6. A valid example of the devs not listening to player feedback was what they did with the exorcism spell.

    Players who knew how the script cams work told the devs exactly why the change would completely fail at countering cams. The devs ignored those players and the script cams are just as much of a problem as they have always been.
     
  7. Pet balls changes hardly effect PVM at all, so why would any of them care. That includes me. Yet, you include them. Now all the PVP fixes that have adversely affect PVM, noone cares what the PVMers think.

    Bags of Sending ...
    The bags of sending are usless now, they could have solved the problem much better by making bags of sending not work at all if there was more than one in you pack or if there were extra powders in your pack.

    Their solution was as usual short sighted and they ingored what affect it would have on the non-cheating players and the opinion of most of the players.
     
  8. agpga

    agpga Guest

    I like flame-boiled hamburgers, thats the way I think they taste best. But I am not going to go into McDonald's tonight and tell them, they have to make their burgers that way. They provide the service/product, I can suggest they add to their menu since I pay for their service/product, but I can not tell them how they should provide their service/product. If I do not like their service/product, I can go down the road to Burger King, who have the same type of service/product but done their way(flame-boiled).
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sorry just got to comment it's "Flame Broiled" not "Flame Boiled" but then again i chalk it up to just another bug implemented by a change
     
  9. Flanuva101

    Flanuva101 Guest

    They do listen to everyone. Even the ones they shouldnt, The majority (myself included) thought that the petball timers needed to be changed because of the unbalance in PvP. They are being changed.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I cannot respond on the pet ball summoning other than to say I was totally disappointed that the only changes being made to the pets were things that impacted PvP. Other problems related to pet health bars, pets taking off to be intantly killed immediately after resurrection, pets taking off when owner logs in and out and many other problems are not even going to be considered.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You are so wrong. What about the new pet AI changes? I think YOU did not consider anything happening right now. This is not JUST about PVP it is about fixing pet summoning balls to balance them as they should have been done since day one. These changes are nothing more than a long overdue fix for an unbalanced item in the game. If you are not happy about something being fixed well then you are going to have to be unhappy. I don't like everything they "fix" either but at the same time I do not complain about it because it is still a step forward.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    They do listen but they also need to do what is best for the game.

    The BOS is good for the game, the economy will be more healty with this changes. BOS was a mistake that never should had been added to the game.

    The Pet ball changes is needed and will balance PvP.
     
  12. <blockquote><hr>

    I'm sorry, call me ignorant, but I don't understand why the team doesn't listen to us players. They propose something, we tell them why it shouldn't be implemented, and they do it anyway. We know better then they do because we play more collectively and even individually then they do. We're also the ones paying them, if the majority of the players want something, and it doesn't take unreasonable amounts of time, it should be done.

    There are a lot of examples where the players, in a vast majority, expressed their opinions and the team went against those opinions. I've listed a recent two, but please add to the list.

    1)In the poll asking what we think of the BoS change the majority of players were strongly against it, yet it still stays. Not only do we think going back to the old system would be better, but we've even explained other systems that would be even better then either, yet still we're stuck with useless bags of sending.

    2)When the petball changes were brought up the first time we pointed out that the delay in summoning pets would adversely effect PvP and remounting, but still the plan is to go ahead with this (as posted today, friday). There were several threads on this, with nearly everyone being of hte same opinion, that this would be a bad change. A beautiful proposition of scaling the summoning time was even proposed, yet it's ignored.

    All we ask is that the team listens to those who pay their wages.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I've played UO at different times in its history. During one of those times, they really were ignoring what we needed the most and seemed to be pressing ahead with relatively senseless things. I quit back then. After I quit, I made my own private shard and it was big and well spoken of for it's time. I learned a lot doing that.

    Players' feelings and perceptions can be a very good source of information for admins but it's just that - information.

    When systems are broken, players and admins alike don't always pick up on what broke it or, sometimes, that it's even broken at all. It takes a deep understanding of the whole thing to see what's really going on. There's nothing inherant about being only a player, or only an admin, that creates this.

    IMO, in the context of right now, they're really paying attention to the whole thing and fixing stuff at different levels, and the two changes you're listing as being unwanted and bad are moving things in a better direction.

    Regarding the pet balls and PVP mounting: be aware that they are supposed to be making etheral mounts only take 3 seconds to mount instead of 5. I am not sure when that was going to hit the table but it was supposed to be soon. That'll change the balance on remounting after forced dismount a bit. There also might be a bit more happening with dismount in terms of fixing some abuses, can't say for sure on that one, but maybe. Such fixes would also change how forced dismount and remount works out.

    I suggest a wait and see perspective on the recent changes you don't agree with; for what it's worth, they seem to have a good chance to work out well over time.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Pet ball nerf is just the way i wanted it.

    Now justmake all PVM pets die when they come to Fel so we can PVP and i'll be even happier.

    Nerf da Tamer!
     
  14. ___________________________________________________________________

    You are so wrong. What about the new pet AI changes? I think YOU did
    not consider anything happening right now. This is not JUST about PVP it is
    about fixing pet summoning balls to balance them as they should have been
    done since day one. These changes are nothing more than a long overdue fix
    for an unbalanced item in the game. If you are not happy about something
    being fixed well then you are going to have to be unhappy. I don't like
    everything they "fix" either but at the same time I do not complain about it
    because it is still a step forward
    __________________________________________________________________

    First let me say I am not complaining about the pet changes that are being made to the game. Pets have needed improvement in the way they react to commands for years. In addition I’m happy that PvP is getting the attention that it is. I’m also impressed that Leurocian is finally doing something in this area. My point was that if I put together some of the comments from Leurocian I see pattern that disturbs me. A pattern that says to me that if PvP were not complaining we would not be making any of these changes. Now I may be wrong but I’ve extracted a few of those posts below.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    Hello Everyone, (Form Leurocian)

    Just letting you know we have been reading your feedback on summoning pet
    balls, animal form, and pets.

    Some of the suggestions I've seen target reducing effectiveness of one or
    more of these three things.

    At the moment, I'm more inclined to look at the summoning pet balls first and
    see if we want to make any changes to it. One of the main suggestions I have
    seen that has possibilities is to require a reuse timer for the summoning pet
    balls, and perhaps don't allow them to be used while in animal form.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    Was it a coincidence that Summoning Balls were chosen first or was it because the new dragons were causing problems with PVP. I believe I would be totally wrong and quite gullible if I thought it was a coincidence. Now in this one post I’d have to say that the problem created by the new dragons in PvP and it’s relationship to animal form, another item on his list related to PvP by the way, needed immediate attention. BUT, then we have the next post.


    ___________________________________________________________________

    Hello Everyone, (Form Leurocian)

    We've been reading over your feedback on the recent Crystal Ball of Pet
    Summoning changes. Some of you have expressed concerns about Pet AI,
    and that the crystal ball was heavily relied on due to the inadequacies of the
    Pet AI.

    I believe I have internally improved Pet AI.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    In this post, Pet AI is being addressed. Again I read this statement as a problem that those who PvP expressed, not those who PvM. I know of no one who used a Crystal Ball in PvM to call back their pets. In most cases there is no need for it. In other cases most PvMers have been logging in and out to retrieve pets. So I read this statement by Leurocian as one responding to concerns of PvP, Yes is does relate heavily to PvM but my concern is that was not part of any consideration to make changes or improve AI..

    __________________________________________________________________

    Question from another Poster:

    Firstly. Are there any plans to update the AI beyond pets responding to
    commands? In effect, making monsters and pets smarter than the average
    mana-dumping automaton.
    ________________________________________________________________

    (Form Leurocian)

    No immediate plans here, but it is something we'd like to do..
    _________________________________________________________________


    If I had a nickel for every time I heard this comment from the Devs, I’d be one rich man. Generally no immediate plans means that 2 – 3 years from now you will still be asking the same question. Maybe it is time somebody said if you are going to fix it, fix it all and fix it right. Thank you for what you have done but there is a lot more to do. Don’t run off on some other project until this one is complete. In the past Half-A$$ has been a description of too many changes that have been made.
     
  15. jagarr

    jagarr Guest

    honestly, there should be no forums where the dev team interacts with players. none. its really detrimental game design.

    the players as a whole are too self-centered and overall are pretty dumb. you don't wanna hear it, but its true.


    because MMOs are a powergamers' paradise, any changes that go in will immediately be exploited to their fullest extent by the number crunchers (like me) who go out of their way to use new or changed mechanics against other players in pvp, or via the in-game economy to make more gold etc.

    and there is NO WAY TO AVOID THAT unless you started banning for 'powergaming' or something crazy like that. powergamers always set the bar - its just how things are in MMOs. so why give us opportunities to swing game changes in our favor or find out about new systems to abuse early via the forums? and why add to the devs workload with 'community management' which is basically them sifting through CRAP all day on the weekends looking for a few elusive decent posts?

    there should only be in-game ways to submit feedback. feedback thats tied to your account. and if your feedback is bloody stupid or is an obvious attempt to make the game easier for you, you should get a 24 hour vacation.

    uhall is an awful, awful place really. not a lot gets accomplished here besides crying. you can predict most of the regulars' reactions to every dev post before they even visit the thread and post something:

    - you know 'flutt' and the other 'lady sexy vampire vixens' will post something 'cutsey' with hearts&lt;3&lt;3~~~
    - you know surgeries is gona bash a pvper or powergamer even if it has nothing to do with the thread. then lord kynd will post something that totally blows my mind with how wimpy it is and makes surgeries look like hes the most ruthless pker that ever lived.
    - you know some tramdancer will post about how now its too hard for them to get the five frostwoods they need for some silly quest that everyone else completed five years ago. related note - i STILL don't get how people expect to jump into a TEN YEAR OLD MMO and compete on ANY level with veterans with hundreds of months invested into the game.
    - and you know the pvpers and luna merchants (aka the 'good' players and powergamers) are gonna whine and complain with paragraphs-long posts like this one i just made until the change gets reverted. or they'll just find some other way to screw everyone else until they quit for Age of Conan. and yes, we do go out of our way to screw the rest of the player base. i sure do at least!

    if you want to see what forum/dev interaction can do to a game, go read the WoW forums. The last few patches in WoW have been pretty laughable. id compare the past couple to AoS almost for the 'turning a once fun game on its head' factor. balance and risk vs reward are a thing of the past in that game now. people are actually quitting WoW - the most addictive game on the freakin planet with dizzyingly high support and production budgets - because of changes that devs only put in to quiet the horribly noisy community.

    the WoW general/class forums are probably one of the worst places to go on the whole interwebnets. if you've ever played wow, you know what a disaster those forums are. they're responsible for way more band-aid fixes and knee-jerk patch additions than any other form of player feedback. the only thing saving UO is that only like five people still play it, so its much easier for the devs to interact with them. since only five people play UO and every single one of them is a diehard pvper or merchant or roleplayer, the devs know nobody is going anywhere so they really could do whatever they wanted. i'd almost prefer it actually if they didnt listen to ANYONE here.
     
  16. <blockquote><hr>

    I'm sorry, call me ignorant, but I don't understand why the team doesn't listen to us players. They propose something, we tell them why it shouldn't be implemented, and they do it anyway. We know better then they do because we play more collectively and even individually then they do. We're also the ones paying them, if the majority of the players want something, and it doesn't take unreasonable amounts of time, it should be done.

    There are a lot of examples where the players, in a vast majority, expressed their opinions and the team went against those opinions. I've listed a recent two, but please add to the list.

    1)In the poll asking what we think of the BoS change the majority of players were strongly against it, yet it still stays. Not only do we think going back to the old system would be better, but we've even explained other systems that would be even better then either, yet still we're stuck with useless bags of sending.

    2)When the petball changes were brought up the first time we pointed out that the delay in summoning pets would adversely effect PvP and remounting, but still the plan is to go ahead with this (as posted today, friday). There were several threads on this, with nearly everyone being of hte same opinion, that this would be a bad change. A beautiful proposition of scaling the summoning time was even proposed, yet it's ignored.

    All we ask is that the team listens to those who pay their wages.

    [/ QUOTE ]


    when you come here and have to listen to a bunch of people crying over petty things and still even more that come here just to trash talk the game whom don't even play.. it makes it hard to do what your wanting.

    if stratic's could somehow link the accounts here with actually PAYING game accounts and ONLY allow those people that pay to play UO posting rights .. ALOT would change around here.
     
  17. The devs listen.

    *waves his "GO DEVS" pompoms*
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think they did listen. It just they live on a double edge sword.
    The bag of sending change was perfect. Its available for that one key item. Not the BS farming. Petballs. Perfect change too. Too limited in my opinion. But I think they listened.
     
  19. <blockquote><hr>

    I'm sorry, call me ignorant, but I don't understand why the team doesn't listen to us players.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Apology accepted, you're ignorant, they do.
     
  20. <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    I'm sorry, call me ignorant, but I don't understand why the team doesn't listen to us players.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Apology accepted, you're ignorant, they do.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I agree. I think sometimes a picture can express my feelings of an original post the best. This is the pic I came up with...

    [​IMG]
     
  21. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think the devs do listen and make changes accordingly, but I think there are too many things the playerbase would like to see happen that the devs simply do not have the manpower to carry out. Furthermore, it is very possible that the changes to BoS may have something to do with an upcoming publish and make more sense at that time.
     
  22. deadite

    deadite Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend It's My Birthday

    Joined:
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    I think the Dev team does listen to us, but their hands are usually tied by EAMythic corporate shennanigens.
     
  23. I think they started listening a little to late. Had they began listening at the age of shadows we might not be as screwed up as we are now.


    ..... where did the punkbuster idea go....?
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Which was the thread in which "nearly everyone" thought that the proposed nerfs were bad? Link please.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=7658077&amp;page=3&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=31&amp;fpart=1

    <blockquote><hr>

    So yes they should listen, but not every suggestion made by players is for the good of the game.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    And I didn't say they should listen to every suggestion, just the ones where the vast majority of the people agree on something. I hate repeating myself.

    <blockquote><hr>

    polls on stratics are never representative of the player base as a whole because most players don't go to stratics boards AT ALL.

    [/ QUOTE ] So long as enough players read stratics to represent all facets of the game, which they do, the numbers aren't very important. Besides, EA decalred these the offical boards, we wouldn't be able to get a better poll. The poll has also been up a sufficient time (months now) to give many many players a chance to vote there.

    <blockquote><hr>

    The devs nerfed the BoS and immediately weakened the gold selling industry and increased the relevance of gold. It will take a while for the UO economy to heal from where it was, but the BoS nerf has definitely had a positive impact on the UO economy.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I haven't seen the slightest impact on the economy, please post where you get this imformation from. All the change did was hurt lower level players that acutally collect gold, while not hurting the high-end players that only get things such as arties and powerscrolls.

    <blockquote><hr>

    Just because a small minority of players complained that it would prevent them from summoning a mount when they get dismounted doesn't mean the change as a whole is directly against player feedback.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    You're misquoting me. I did not say that the whole change was bad, just the one part, which everyone in the thread agreed to, as well as a better change.

    <blockquote><hr>

    I like flame-boiled hamburgers, thats the way I think they taste best. But I am not going to go into McDonald's tonight and tell them, they have to make their burgers that way. They provide the service/product, I can suggest they add to their menu since I pay for their service/product, but I can not tell them how they should provide their service/product. If I do not like their service/product, I can go down the road to Burger King, who have the same type of service/product but done their way(flame-boiled).

    [/ QUOTE ]
    If a company doesn't like to make any money, then they certainly don't have to listen to their customers. Macdonalds is a succesful company because they DO listen, they actually spend money to find out what they're customers want, we give it to EA for free and they'd don't listen.

    <blockquote><hr>

    They do listen to everyone. Even the ones they shouldnt, The majority (myself included) thought that the petball timers needed to be changed because of the unbalance in PvP. They are being changed.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Again, please read more carefully, it's only one part of the four that people disagreed with, not the entire thing.

    <blockquote><hr>

    The BOS is good for the game, the economy will be more healty with this changes. BOS was a mistake that never should had been added to the game.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Not according to the majority of the players.

    <blockquote><hr>

    The Pet ball changes is needed and will balance PvP

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Yes, 3 of the 4 are good ones, but the one in question is not the best option that can be done, as is proved by the support in the other thread. The one in question would make PvP nearly unplayable as dismount will become equivlant to being dead.



    <blockquote><hr>

    be aware that they are supposed to be making etheral mounts only take 3 seconds to mount instead of 5

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Citation needed :p Even three seconds would be far too long though, unless all spells and swings also took three seconds you'd never get to remount. I'm guessing the majority of people trying to press that point don't PvP.

    <blockquote><hr>

    honestly, there should be no forums where the dev team interacts with players. none. its really detrimental game design.

    the players as a whole are too self-centered and overall are pretty dumb. you don't wanna hear it, but its true.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    You honestly believe that? The average game designer is NO smarter then your average player, and while a lot of players ARE self-centered, that's not what this is about. It's about how they don't listen to the player-base as a whole.

    <blockquote><hr>

    when you come here and have to listen to a bunch of people crying over petty things and still even more that come here just to trash talk the game whom don't even play.. it makes it hard to do what your wanting.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Certainly people that just cry without backing up their ideas are being anti-productive, but why you're flaming this thread with that is beyond me.

    <blockquote><hr>


    I think the devs do listen and make changes accordingly, but I think there are too many things the playerbase would like to see happen that the devs simply do not have the manpower to carry out.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I'll agree that they don't have the manpower to do a lot of new things taht this game needs, the bosses at EA aren't giving them enough love... BUT there's no reason they have to introduce new things into the game that the players don't want.


    I would also like to add to the list that the player base new that the new dragons would be a PvP issue, we told the team, yet they were still put in as is. We, again, had good ideas to help balance them in PvP without hurting the supposed fun that they are to hunt, but they were ignored.