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Why I don't like the JoaT change, and why it isn't THAT big a deal

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GalenKnighthawke, Feb 3, 2010.

  1. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    For those who missed it, in the recent Publish notes was this item:

    • Why I don't like this idea
    Quite simply, what's the rationale for it? Why would you do it?

    If there were complaints about this, I missed them entirely.

    It's not like this issue is a tipping point into making humans the dominant race.

    Even if it was, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with humans being the dominant race. In fact their so being is kind of intrinsic to fantasy literature, often coupled with a kind of resentment, sometimes benign sometimes not, from the other races.

    Yes it was an advantage but....So what? Every race has some advantages. What ones you want or need most is up to the player. Is it really that much of an advantage? If it is, why isn't everyone a human? Because not everyone is, especially in PvM.

    And let's say every PvPer was a human, which isn't the case, but let's say it was. Is even that really that bad a thing? A lot of PvP occurs in Factions these days, and let's face it, gargoyles and elves have little reason to fight over political control over Felucca. Sure there's other reasons to fight in Felucca but of course you don't only see humans in Felucca, just more often than the other races. It's arguable that elves, who traditionally draw their power from nature, should be at a disadvantage in Felucca, which is all-but-dead.

    So.....Why make a change I don't recall anyone asking for, that no one really seems to have been particularly bothered by? If it's for PvP....Well, were the PvPers complaining about this? I missed it. I really doubt it was for PvM; such changes are rarely made for PvM.

    And if I just missed all the complaints, someone please speak up and correct me.

    What few "pure" warriors, or even non-Chiv Samurai or Ninja, there are will likely be the most hurt by this and I don't think you see those all that often in PvP.

    • Why it's not that big a deal
    Some are arguing that this change means the effective end of humanity's status as a useful in-game race. I disagree. I think humans have plenty of other advantages and there will continue to be human characters.

    With mana leech I may not even notice this all that much, honestly.

    But what really worries me is the chance that this a trial balloon for deeper changes in the racial balancing system.

    If so...My impression is that most people are pretty happy with racial balance as it is now. Those who want gargoyles to be more useful I don't think are going to suddenly switch as a result of humans being slightly nerfed.

    And further, I bet we'll come to see a lot more gargoyle Mystic-Warriors after the Mysticism changes hit.

    -Galen's player
     
  2. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Why they would do it?

    -May not have been intended but was put on the back burner for a while.

    -Trial for rebalancing the races, as you mentioned.

    -Revamping the combat skill LMC system.

    -They were pwnt on their player account by a human archer with less than 200 "combat" skills

    -****s and giggles.

    Why I don't see any problem with it?

    -20 hiding = 0-20% chance to hide i found, depending on how many targets are on screen and the RNG, not official numbers because I don't care enough to look.

    -20 tracking, fun to play with

    -20focus/20med, speaks for itself

    -20 Spellweaving, =D

    -20 necromancy can maintain wraith form

    -20 SS 5% mana leach every hit while in a no skill wraith form
    -5 second Curse weapon

    List goes on...

    Back to your point of it hurting non hybrid dexxors... Yeah it might. Though I really don't see how any template can be a pure dexxor and not have atleast 200 combat skills...
     
  3. canary

    canary Guest

    I have noticed a lot of unasked (or hardly asked for) changes recently when there are other, much more important things that need tended to in game.
     
  4. olduofan

    olduofan Guest


    120 swords
    120 parry
    120 anatomy
    120 tactics
    120 healing
    85 chivalry
    35 focus

    Ya some do play a classic pally
     
  5. Damien Softstep

    Damien Softstep Visitor

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    Why would you have 35 focus when it upgrades by 20s?Drop that focus to 20 and up chivalry to 100...
     
  6. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    you can thank your new lead live DEV for that she favors her AND her friends play style, templates and wishes

    B/C of her I have closed down 3 acc I have 1 left and I don't play I hope she gets put on another game and we get some true talent soon

    I HATE LAIRS :thumbdown:
     
  7. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    120 swords + 120 parry is 240, my point is still valid.
     
  8. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    its 42 with ring and im also going 80 chiv and 40 focus if i ever log back in
     
  9. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    It's 300 not 200. You need 300 total points for the -10 to special move mana cost.
     
  10. Damien Softstep

    Damien Softstep Visitor

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    Ahh ok...
     
  11. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    it's 200 for the -5.
     
  12. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    Hmm actually one thing Id like to point out. This change will directly effect the "straight" or "specialized" template. Like a straight archer or straight dexer. You mentioned Ninja dexers which is probably one of the "many" that's unaffected by this change. Why? Because Ninja counts towards the skill points, as well as your weapon skill as well as stealth.

    The templates that will not be affected are
    1. Ninja stealth dexer (Weapon + Stealth + Ninjitsu)
    2. Bushido dexer (Weapon + Parry + Bushido)
    3. Stealth doggie archer (Archery + Stealth + Ninjitsu)
    4. And various dexer templates that utilize poisoning skill
    5. Last but not least the freaking zero skill DISARM ARCHERS

    As you can see hybrid chars (or someone might prefer it gimpy?) are almost none touched.

    I know people might not like it but I see it as a good start to balance things out a bit. But the method they are using isnt the best one. It's an attempt to fix special spammage (which got that much more ******** with imbuing) but instead of increasing the mana cost to certain ******** specials (like moving shot) they decided to do it to every Human. BUT even so I will have to say "Good Call" now I might actually consider playing other races in PvP.
     
  13. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Stealth archers and Bushido dexxers get the full -10. Why don't Paladins or pure warriors?
     
  14. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    my temp needs mana regen bad he is useless in almost all aspects of this game thats why i feel hybrids should not be allowed. or classic temps get a bonus if used and limit skill mixing and spell book use as well like 1 book per char class they screwed up the game and keep neffing dexxer melee worriers
     
  15. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I didn't say they shouldn't. I said "I can't imagine a pure dexxor template that doesn't have 200 combat skill."
     
  16. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    All tempts need mana regain. They screwed up the game why?

    -Your moves cost 5 more mana?

    -You can't use Mana leech as a crutch that required no LMC or MR?

    -You actually need the ability to regain mana now?

    Sounds like you want the easy button, not UO.
     
  17. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    120 Swords
    120 Tactics
    120 Resist spells
    100 Anatomy
    100 Healing
    80 Chivalry
    80 Focus

    This template got totally screwed. Doesn't even qualify for the -5 bonus now
     
  18. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    As I recall, JOAT was a given 20 in skills and then if one took a skill to 21 then you had 21 points and not 41, thus JOAT was not intended to "stack" but to give an early skill boost on humans.

    Therefore this move makes sense.
     
  19. E_T

    E_T Adventurer
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    This definitely hurts my pure dexxer. The only skill he has in that list is swords. They should at the very least add tactics to the list so pure dexxers aren't completely useless. :mad:
     
  20. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Could just change out focus :p.

    You do see the problem right? If they make lets say, Tactics or chivlary, the MOST COMMON skill among fighting templates... everyone would easily have -5 to -10... which would mean why even have those as bonuses? Why not just lower the mana cost? if everyone has the discount, it's not a discount anymore. I can see bushido being on the list, is passively effects blocking, like parry. Ninjitsu doesn't passively do anything, but it's considered a combat skill because of how it was implemented, while Chivalry isn't implemented in the same way (ie, a lot of ninjitsu/bushido moves are similar to Special moves that weapon skill gives, so they're not considered "Magic" while chivalry incorporates active spell casting and the ability to fizzle, which is why it's considered "magic" and not "Combat." Tactics is probably not included to limit the amount of people getting the -5, -10 or because, at the time, it wasn't required for special moves. Which also explains poisoning and Stealth being on the list, they're required for special moves)
     
  21. E_T

    E_T Adventurer
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    Actually, this makes no sense at all. What's the only thing a pure dexxer has for PVP? That's right, special moves. So they are punishing pure dexxers by removing the mana reduction bonus from JOAT.

    There's an easy solution though. Add Tactics and Anatomy to the mana reduction skill list. If they do that, I would have no problem with the change.
     
  22. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Like I said, doing that ruins the entire point of a reduction.
     
  23. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    It's plain and simple. Paladins and pure warriors didn't get the benefit of the special move mana reduction for one reason and one reason only. To sell more boxes of UO:Samurai Empire. The majority of the templates that benefit from the mana reduction are SE skills or game mechanics introduced at that time, i.e. ninjas, samurai and archers. Remember Archer Online? Honestly not much has changed.

    The marketing of SE is done. Level the field for all combat skills' mana reduction.
     
  24. E_T

    E_T Adventurer
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    My point is that pure dexxers are the only ones that SHOULD be getting the bonus. Because they need it to even be close to being a competative template. The other templates, necros, ninjas, etc all have their own skill advantages.
     
  25. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    So even more people become the exact same thing, elf bushdio dexxer. As for your template no resist sucks. Tactics use to be on the list before SE came out then they took it off.
     
  26. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I just stated how I think they came to that conclusion. You toggle ninja and samurai skills on and off (generally) like weapon skills, chivalry you cast. Surely you can see my point.

    I'm not saying it's right, in fact, I haven't really stated an opinion. I think the entire reduction thing is kind of silly, specially if they add every "REAL" combat skill to the list, then anyone who uses a weapon and has a decent template gets the bonus, thus kind of negating it as an actual bonus.
     
  27. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    It takes the -10 bonus for a human to balance out the 20 extra mana from being elf. -5 still doesn't; even with JOAT med and focus bonuses.

    Chivalry belongs on the list of qualifying skills, as there is ZERO reason to have ninjitsu & bushido on the list, but not Chivalry, as they all serve the exact same role - and unlike the two SE skills, Chivalry doesn't piggyback a SECOND qualifying skill (that is required for proper use of the first skill) in as part of the package.

    The only skill set that will be left with an advantage for being human, is the Trammel MINER, from having the ability to stay out mining longer without trips to the bank than an elf would (with the elf ore color bonus and the human extra ore bonus actually fairly balanced with each other in actual use, if not done in Fel - in Fel, the Elf is superior).

    The others?
    Tamer: Two words - Cu Sidhe. Elf wins (humans can OWN a Cu with the pads, but not tame them).
    Mages/Necro-mages/Arcanists/Mystics: Extra Mana. slam dunk for the elf.
    Samurai & Ninja: Elf, hands down, because the base template requires 3 of the qualifiers. And, early all remaining necros not in the spellcasters above are Samurai with necro.
    Bards: A few skill tweaks with human, vs. the extra mana of elf. Plus, 99% of bards are also Tamers and/or mages. Elf wins again.
    Crafters/lumberjacks: The only human advantage is human carrying capacity. The elves get more, better, wood from trees, and can wear song woven mantle, that can be used with a talisman or singing axe, and jewelry, to have the ability to craft musical instruments. The Elven +20 mana AGAIN shifts the advantage to Elf, even for non-carpenters. Only as noted above, do the Miners that don't go to Fel have any advantage in staying human. And, the only gargoyle crafters are imbuers, and even THEY take a hit from the elves in this pubish.
    Fishers & T-hunters: These MIGHT have an advantage in human carrying capacity... BUT, since 99% of them (the exception of maybe a dozen melee T-hunters scattered across the shards, inspired by my T-hunter's exploits, and odds are even they are more likely to be elf with Bushido instead of chivalry) are one of the OTHER templates above, in order to fight the spawn, elf wins again.

    The only humans that will be left, will be those that are human from laziness or role-play reasons (including the "My character was born human and will stay that way" crowd). PERIOD.

    This is a bad idea.
     
  28. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I haven't listed my template here, I didn't say anything about supporting elves or bushido. Why you're even replying to what I said with that completely confuses me.
     
  29. E_T

    E_T Adventurer
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    They need to rethink the skill list. Something like this would make more sense:

    Swordsmanship, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Archery, Throwing, Parry, Lumberjacking, Tactics, Anatomy
     
  30. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I have 2 dexors, one elf, one human. The human has over 300 combat skill, I keep him human for JOAT for the bonuses I have already mentioned.

    I'm not sure what you're saying, Bushido and ninjitsu can in fact be used without a compliment, just like chivalry. And, just like chivalry, loose some purpose to some of their spells. But, the spells are generally cast differently, ninjitsu and bushido, unlike chivalry, are toggled on, with no possibility for interruption. Chivalry requires a resource, has more non-fighting related spells, "Casts" and can be interrupted. That's why I can see why it's considered a "magic" skill rather than a "combat skill." Under what you say, Spellweaving should also be considered a combat skill.

    Humans get 2hpr, around 3 mr, 2 sr, other JoaT abilities, and can carry more. Elves get 20 mana and nightsight which barely works half the time.

    Would be nice if not everyone and their grandma used Greater Dragons

    Humans get free MR if the templates don't have med, slam duck for the human. Plus they get stamina regain
    Unless you want more mana regain *rolls eyes*
    DO I have to state everything again? Mr, hpr, sr. Hiding, carry more, free necro, free ss, hell you get free chiv if you're willing to spend a bit more tithing for CW.

    Elves get 20 mana. Wow, because it's soo much more economical to make up for 3 mr, 2sr on a suit than 20 mana.
     
  31. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    any non-sampire would get the bonus, and the sampires just have to drop resist.
     
  32. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Anyone who isn't my race is inferior to me.
     
  33. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Konge, when you have a clue, please post. Since you don't, why bother wasting your time?

    Most MR bonuses get swallowed up in the formula for mana regen. You know, the one that is (3 X INT + Med skill)/400? 20 med is 0.5 MR

    Negligible. Negligible. Negligible. (these first three especially so, unless you're a crafter wearing only clothes, without MR & SR) Negligible. Only an advantage for miners that don't go to Fel to mine. Negligible. Negligible. Negligible.

    Instead of claiming these things, why try actually TESTING THEM? I HAVE tested them - REPEATEDLY - over the last 4 years.

    Game. Set. MAtch. ELVES.
     
  34. girana

    girana Adventurer
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    + posioning !
     
  35. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    You know? The .5 mana regain per second you're talking about isn't .5 mr? it's 5 mr, MR, was, back before all the changes, how much mana you regained in TEN seconds. Perhaps YOU should, in fact, "Not post if you have no idea what you're talking about."
     
  36. Smokin

    Smokin Guest


    Those all make sense and I can see posioning, because they all are skills or damage modifiers. If they do it that way all races get the same bonus except elves get the 20 mana increase. Thats why the human thing was good.
    If they wanted Gargoyles to be better which i think that was the idea, well the should have looked at making them better and not nerf the Humans.
     
  37. canary

    canary Guest

    You are a moderator, one who should set an example of tone to the posters on this forum, right?
     
  38. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    1. Human came with 2 Stam Regen and 2 Stam Regen from 20 focus. Thats 4 stam regen which guarantees me to save at least 1 mod on my armor (so I dont have to chug red pot while running). And in PvP 1 mod difference is pretty significant.

    2. Human 2 HP regen can be pretty meaningless yes but it's a nice bonus to have especially when you can stack HP regen to a point where it will help you greatly especially in PvP.

    3. Yes not all PvPers are human but I am confidence to say people who PvP regularly (or exclusively like me) will have MOST of their characters as Human.

    4. It's nice to be able to lore your pet without using a 2nd account. or a friend's help even if it might take a few tries.

    5. It's significant bonus from 20 free Med and Focus for characters that do not run any focus and med. Especially 20 med/focus also helps reducing diminishing return effect for mana regen mods. And 5 MR is huge in PvP.

    6. It's nice for human deathstriker to be able to track most other none stealthing players for free. And max distance human 20 tracking means 12 free additional dmg.

    7. Free 20 Spirit Speak makes 60 necro omen mages possible. And it's one of the most effective mage templates in both field pvp and dueling.

    8. Free 20 SW is amazing especially with lv6 focus.

    9. Free 20 anatomy with 120 eval give you basic defense when your mage is disarmed (this means 80 defensive wrestling skill)

    10. Free 20 eval with 120 anatomy give you basic defense when your dexer is disarmed (this means 80 defensive wrestling skill)

    11. 20 parry on dexers sometimes help you block a killing blow. And 20 parry on mages (rarely but it still happens) help you block a blow also.

    12. 1 additional stat point granted when using a str or agi pot.

    I am not trying to bash your ideas. But I am assuming you that PvP isnt your prime activity in UO.

    I can easily make the list even longer if I really tried those Human advantages just immediately came in mind. Of course if you want to Negligible thru all my points it doesnt matter. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. :party:
     
  39. olduofan

    olduofan Guest

    1. Human came with 2 Stam Regen and 2 Stam Regen from 20 focus. Thats 4 stam regen which guarantees me to save at least 1 mod on my armor (so I dont have to chug red pot while running). And in PvP 1 mod difference is pretty significant.

    5. It's significant bonus from 20 free Med and Focus for characters that do not run any focus and med. Especially 20 med/focus also helps reducing diminishing return effect for mana regen mods. And 5 MR is huge in PvP.





    you have no clue as to how focus works in PVP at all what you are implying is very incorrect . I have 40 focus and use 50% to 100% hit stamina leach and never have stamina its why I always die cant run or heal with aids. if you actually played a worrier you would know this, nothing you said about those two points is factual at all :lie:
     
  40. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    The best solution is to just eliminate the benefit entirely. There's no point to it. Why can ninjas, samurai, archers and/or poisoners get it but no other warriors do? There isn't any good reason. Either lower the special move mana cost to be equal for all templates or eliminate the mana cost reduction so it's full cost is paid by all templates. Either way is more fair. Get rid of the SE template bias. If I have to pay 30 mana for a special, then so be it, as long as every other template's mana cost is the same.
     
  41. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    :coco:

    Believe your illusion. Oh btw unless you are in animal form or running on foot you should never run out of stam from running. Oh maybe you are taking damages as you are running away. You are supposed to lose stam when you get hit. It's how it works. You probably dont know how UO works or you are thinking as a human you should never run out of stam even when you are redlined or taking big dmg.

    But oh well whatever makes you happy. If you are running on mount as a human and no one is hitting you and ur not taking any dmg or redlined and you run out of stam, you should be paging on a GM. (or learn to play UO).

    Also you talk like the kind that would ride a blue beetle loaded with 1500 stones to PvP and this will also stam you out. =)
     
  42. mrrippletip

    mrrippletip Guest

    my take on this and the mysticism changes:


    Omg there are no mystic dexxers. *patch*

    Omg dexxers can once again spam special moves. *patch*


    but dexxers will still be spamming special moves, at least on the PVP side...i'm not really sure how many PVP archers don't have 200 skill points in the required skills...maybe the tamer/archers don't...so kind of it's a piece of nerf pie tossed at them, which they can handle

    puzzling tho, i would think there would be a better solution to dexxers/archers spamming specials than to give them a basically insignificant mana penalty while handing them mysticism with no eval attached


    NEXT UP...Throwing Improvements!
     
  43. Aran

    Aran INFRACTION INFRACTION INFRACTION!
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    Frankly they need to remove PvP for the good of the game.
     
  44. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Just in case it wasn't clear....Speaking only for myself, while I don't like the change, I don't think it's too big a deal either.

    If it's between this or some other nerf of JoaT? By all means do this!

    I'm just not clear as to what the reasoning behind this was.

    Perhaps if someone from the team explained it?

    -Galen's player
     
  45. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    The dissent isn't that it's just a nerf to JoAT. The clear opposition to the change is that yes it's an obvious nerf to humans but more than that it SEVERELY hits certain dexxer templates very hard with the nerf stick while unfairly greatly benefiting other dexxer templates. See the disparity? They're all dexxer templates. There should be no game mechanic, of this magnitude, that is so extremely bias to one template over another, whether elf or human.
     
  46. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    not reading all these posts, but wow. So basically a straight char is nerfed and a gimped template is left alone.....



    stealther archers and ninja dexers become the win...

    straight archers or dexers become the lose.....
     
  47. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Lets get rid of all monsters too. I just want to see people interact with each other in trammel.....that sounds delightful......:rant2:
     
  48. mrrippletip

    mrrippletip Guest

    JOAT is still better than being elf or gargoyle.

    As far as PVP goes...WHAT dexxer template is being nerfed by this? Tamer/Archer is the only one I can think off that is a popular PVP template that could/would be effected by this?

    Losing a -5 mana cost bonus on a weapon special move is hardly a severe nerf...weapon specials were never meant to be spammed...they were meant as finishing moves.

    I just don't see this as a huge change from where I'm sitting.
     
  49. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I thought people only bank sat... So removing monsters wont do anything since everyone's just going to chill at luna bank???
     
  50. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    How is it that you don't see the imbalance of this change FOR SOME DEXXERS? Its not about losing the -5 or even the -10 mana cost reduction. It's about the fact the only SPECIFIC dexxer templates get screwed while other DEXXER templates will continue to reap the benefits of the -10 full mana cost reduction. There isn't a single freaking good reason for the mana cost for special moves to not be the same for all dexxers. Why the heck do ninjas, samurais, stealthers, Archers etc get a 33%-50% mana cost reduction when other dexxer templates do not?

    We're not talking about classes here. It's not about mage vs. dexxer vs. tamer or whatever. This is all about dexxers and dexxers only. It makes no sense for some dexxers to get a 33%+ mana cost reduction to special moves if all dexxers don't get it. Do away with this reduction BS entirely. Either reduce the cost of special moves by -10 mana across the board or leave the cost the same as it is now, but it should be the same cost for all dexxers. There isn't any logical reason why some dexxers get the reduction but some don't. None.