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Why is there -1 on SC weapons?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Guest, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It really just seems silly to me.

    So many weapons out there are wasted because of this.

    What's the thought behind this?

    Why can't FC1 or SC be applied to a weapon like hit spells are (IE: you can have one or the other but not both without it being an artifact).
     
  2. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    Actually when SC is applied to any weapon or shield, the default result is -1FC. Then, if another mod adds 1FC, the two cancel each other out so you get the SC item without the -1.
    This is the result of 2 mods.
    As far as I know, there's no way to add the 1FC mod more than once on any item so the best you can get is SC with no -1.
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I believe we were once told it was for balancing purposes, the -1 supposedly making it more difficult to be a mage that wields a weapon with no drawback. But frankly, the -1 can be relatively easily overcome with jewelry and an arcane shield. I've always figured that maybe they were attempting to apply some sort of logic to the ability? If a weapon is being used to "channel" a spell rather than just casting it from your hands, it takes a little longer for it to be cast because it's not a normal implement to channel magic through...? But then how do you explain wands having -1? *shrugs*
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I was just thinking about this tidbit from the FoF:
    <blockquote><hr>

    Also, just to clarify last weeks' update - the wood-based runic kits CAN stack properties - so if you're using a Runic Ash Saw, for example, it is possible to roll Luck twice at 50% intensity, bringing the total intensity for that property to 100% - well above the theoretical intensity maximum of 75% for an Ash Runic, and it will look like only one property was added, when an Ash should generate a minimum of two.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Theoretically, if that statement is correct, you could create a wooden weapon or even a bow that was SC +1 or even +2, couldn't you? If the properties really do stack and you got extreeeemely once-in-a-lifetime lucky with a Heartwood runic (guaranteed four properties):

    1) SC -1
    2) FC +1
    3) FC +1
    4) FC +1

    For a net total of SC +2? That can't be right...
     
  5. <blockquote><hr>

    Actually when SC is applied to any weapon or shield, the default result is -1FC. Then, if another mod adds 1FC, the two cancel each other out so you get the SC item without the -1.
    This is the result of 2 mods.
    As far as I know, there's no way to add the 1FC mod more than once on any item so the best you can get is SC with no -1.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    There is one item you can craft with SC AND FC +1. The UO ML mage runeblade, but you must be lucky. You get FC + 1 from crafting the mage runeblade, then SC -1 AND FC +1 from a runic.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually can't FC be only -1, 0 (not shown) or +1? Thus an FC +2 could not happen as a stack - only the +1 mod.

    Call me looney but I think that's how it works and is capped at for one item only. Stacks from other gear can increase the FC value though.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    It really just seems silly to me.

    So many weapons out there are wasted because of this.

    What's the thought behind this?

    Why can't FC1 or SC be applied to a weapon like hit spells are (IE: you can have one or the other but not both without it being an artifact).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It seems silly to me there are spell channeling weapon for mages but thats another story.

    -1 has always been the cost for using one for no other reason but because they did it.
     
  8. Garaba

    Garaba Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    I was just thinking about this tidbit from the FoF:
    <blockquote><hr>

    Also, just to clarify last weeks' update - the wood-based runic kits CAN stack properties - so if you're using a Runic Ash Saw, for example, it is possible to roll Luck twice at 50% intensity, bringing the total intensity for that property to 100% - well above the theoretical intensity maximum of 75% for an Ash Runic, and it will look like only one property was added, when an Ash should generate a minimum of two.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Theoretically, if that statement is correct, you could create a wooden weapon or even a bow that was SC +1 or even +2, couldn't you? If the properties really do stack and you got extreeeemely once-in-a-lifetime lucky with a Heartwood runic (guaranteed four properties):

    1) SC -1
    2) FC +1
    3) FC +1
    4) FC +1

    For a net total of SC +2? That can't be right...

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I think that would be correct, but that may be the only property on item since it takes 4 to create it.
     
  9. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    Lol, SC &amp; FC2...That would be very nice mods on a Wooden Shield for a mage, would it not?
    Now if there was any way to actually get a Heartwood runic that didn't take forever and a day doing insanely boring quests, it might be even be worth blowing one away trying, lol.

    Hmmm, can you even get mods on crafted wooden shields anyway...never actually tried, hehe.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm very much aware of how it currently works.

    My question is more "what is the point in the developers putting the -1 SC penalty on weapons?".
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Do you happen to know which item that is? I may have to do some test crafting on test and eventually buy some runic hammers &amp; the appropriate gems.
     
  12. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    In Flames: My question is more "what is the point in the developers putting the -1 SC penalty on weapons?".

    [/ QUOTE ]

    My guess would be that, at the time they brought all these insane mods in..namely AoS expansion which made UO the item based fiasco it is today, they considered the possibility of a weapon having 3 positive mods, in respect to mages, was too powerful.

    If the -1 was not there by default, then presumably you could craft a Spell Channeling Mage Weapon with 1 Faster Casting and up to 2 more mods, if crafted with a val hammer. Nice. I guess they could have gone one further and taken the penalty to Magery out as well, but they needed a few nice extras to slap on arties.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Did you read the original post?

    *sigh*

    As for the FC1 ML craftable item. It's no good for me. Two handed. What a waste.
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    And for the record.

    you can have 5 mods on a magic item.

    6 on a runic (if you count the damage increase).

    SC
    FC
    40 Dmg
    50 Fireball
    30 SSI
    15 HCI

    (that item is actually possible)

    7 if you craft an ML craftable

    SC
    FC
    40 Dmg
    15 Lighting (i think its 15, it may be 10)
    50 Fireball
    30 SSI
    15 HCI


    I'm just shocked I havent seen any 160 luck luckblades on Uo yet. You'd think someone would have made one by now since the vesper shield would put you up to 240 luck in hands.
     
  15. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    Damage Increase is not a Magic Property, it is a crafting bonus, nothing at all to do with runics or any other mod. You get 40 DI on any crafted weapon, if it is exceptional quality AND the smith has GM Arms Lore.

    And yes I read you original post...you ask a subjective question about an issue as old as Age of Shadows, when the properties were first introduced to UO.....you got a subjective answer, given it is impossible for anyone here to know exactly what the thought processes were behind any/all of the runic properties when they were developed.
    Why not post the question to the Herald Feedback, and maybe you'll get an answer from a developer in an upcoming FoF.

    I add, to use your own words from your OP "It really just seems silly to me."....your question that is!
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    It really just seems silly to me.

    So many weapons out there are wasted because of this.

    What's the thought behind this?

    Why can't FC1 or SC be applied to a weapon like hit spells are (IE: you can have one or the other but not both without it being an artifact).

    [/ QUOTE ]

    At the time the Devs introduced the AoS Item Porperties they made item property Spell Channelling cause a Faster Casting of -1 to offset the powerful ability to cast spells while still holding a weapon. A balancing effect similar to Mage Weapons causing Magery to drop by 20 to 29 and how the Protection spell disallows any Faster Casting at all. Those are pretty powerful abilities. I believe that answers why there is the -1 FC on SC weapons, "Balancing".
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    If the -1 was not there by default, then presumably you could craft a Spell Channeling Mage Weapon with 1 Faster Casting and up to 2 more mods, if crafted with a val hammer. Nice. I guess they could have gone one further and taken the penalty to Magery out as well, but they needed a few nice extras to slap on arties.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    See, this is what made me think you hadn't even bothered to read my post.

    Because I clearly stated

    <blockquote><hr>

    Why can't FC1 or SC be applied to a weapon like hit spells are (IE: you can have one or the other but not both without it being an artifact).

    [/ QUOTE ].

    Now, in case you don't know, unless it's an ML crafted item or a bow with velocity (which I think needs to be changed), there is no way to get two hit spells on the same weapon (and I don't mean hit area since that doesn't hit who you're attacking, just everyone else).
     
  18. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend GoT

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    Why is there FC1 on non SC shields, well for Paladins of course...oh excuse me, ahem...for characters with Chivalry in their template...
     
  19. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    <blockquote><hr>



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, just to clarify last weeks' update - the wood-based runic kits CAN stack properties - so if you're using a Runic Ash Saw, for example, it is possible to roll Luck twice at 50% intensity, bringing the total intensity for that property to 100% - well above the theoretical intensity maximum of 75% for an Ash Runic, and it will look like only one property was added, when an Ash should generate a minimum of two.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Theoretically, if that statement is correct, you could create a wooden weapon or even a bow that was SC +1 or even +2, couldn't you? If the properties really do stack and you got extreeeemely once-in-a-lifetime lucky with a Heartwood runic (guaranteed four properties):

    1) SC -1
    2) FC +1
    3) FC +1
    4) FC +1

    For a net total of SC +2? That can't be right...


    [/ QUOTE ]

    You are correct - it is NOT right.

    Jeremy posted in accurate information once again in the Five On Friday. Third time is a charm - maybe they will explain it correctly this week.

    Sad when even the people who are responsbile for the code don't understand it.

    Runic properties on wood does NOT stack unless its an existing property from the item/recepie and only then does it 'sometimes' stack. Like the ability to craft double slayers with a fletching runic and a 'Slayer' Longbow. One slayer from the recipe and one from the runic.
     
  20. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>


    I'm just shocked I havent seen any 160 luck luckblades on Uo yet. You'd think someone would have made one by now since the vesper shield would put you up to 240 luck in hands.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    How many Val Hammers have you held/used? I'm a 6 year smith and I haven't sniffed one yet.

    You would need a val hammer to craft a 100% intensity item like you describe. That is why you haven't seen one. Besides, luck is over-rated.

    With swords of prosperity - I have 200 luck. 200 vs 240 isn't THAT much different.
     
  21. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    And for the record.

    you can have 5 mods on a magic item.

    6 on a runic (if you count the damage increase).

    SC
    FC
    40 Dmg
    50 Fireball
    30 SSI
    15 HCI

    (that item is actually possible)

    7 if you craft an ML craftable

    SC
    FC
    40 Dmg
    15 Lighting (i think its 15, it may be 10)
    50 Fireball
    30 SSI
    15 HCI


    I'm just shocked I havent seen any 160 luck luckblades on Uo yet. You'd think someone would have made one by now since the vesper shield would put you up to 240 luck in hands.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'd take one of them number 7's there.. on a clever please if I may
     
  22. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't see how it balances anything.

    Mages HAVE to wear LMC. If we want to avoid picking up regs after every death, and never being able to loot much, we NEED LRC. If we want MR at a decent rate, we NEED MR.

    Mages ALSO NEED FC and FCR. This makes GOOD jewelry hard to comeby, artifacts aside, and we ussually need some LRC on these to make a suit workable.

    And to boot it all off, mages who want to use a weapon either NEED SCNP, or they need SC and have to make up the penalty somewhere else.

    Want to know what dexxers need?

    HCI and if they arent swinging at cap, SSI.

    Everything else just boosts their power and they can have WAY more flexibility in their suit then any mage can.

    And after spending all this time pondering this, I need to realize that the players of this game truely hate us mages. Personally I can understand why when the most vocal of the mages in game ussually have nothing good to say.

    Perhaps its time we got that reg bag.

    Archers have quivers, and all fighters have aid talis. Not to mention SW, Chiv, Bush, and Ninja all have ways to regaining life while carrying nada on you.

    Make sure it takes the sash slot, has 1-2 MR, and 10 LRC while you're adding it in (seems fair considering the quiver has 10 LAC and 5 DCI) too. That way people can stop going on about the LT sash.
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I've had enough gold to buy one (or more) so many times It's crazy. I just prefer to buy my weapons outright, not burning runics and hoping.

    I do bods too, have for years, and I only have 2-3 val runic bods. A few verite larges though. I just don't spend much time doing the blacksmith ones anymore now that they changed resources.

    Hell, I see one on LS right now for 33m.
     
  24. Cellmate

    Cellmate Guest

    You didn't ask about Hit Spells or anything else.
    You asked two questions:

    1. What's the thought behind this? Subjective, asking someone here to give an answer to what some dev was thinking prior to release of AoS.

    2. Why can't FC1 or SC be applied to a weapon like hit spells are? Also seeking a subjective interpretation or guess at a possible reason the developers did what they did and not what you may think is a better idea.

    I answered, giving my thoughts as to why they may have done as they did, namely that it is possible they thought giving a crafted weapon the potential for three positive mods, in respect to mages in particular, couple with the ability to cast spells while equipped with the thing, may have seemed to them at the time as far too powerful.

    You didn't like my guess, fine, take on someone else's guess...or make your own guess...because the real answer to both your questions is....

    Who knows, It's anyone's guess, n'est ce pas?

    Oh and, for the record, Spell Channeling, Mage Weapon &amp; FC1 would be, in fact, 3 mods as I said, and if you add the other 2 possibles from crafting with a val hammer, that does equal 5.
    Accepting, of course, that Damage Increase is not a mod, but a crafting bonus not dependent on the use of any special hammers or tools.

    Now I'm not trying to get into a fight with you over this, I did however take some exception at your reply to what I considered a reasonable answer when you questioned whether I had even read the OP and added a *sigh* [​IMG]
     
  25. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Perhaps its time we got that reg bag.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You mean this?

    That'd be nice!

    I have multiple mages, so I'm not arguing as a 'Dexxer' against 'Mages'. Magery is by far the most powerful skill in the game. No other skill can come close to the power/versatility of the Magery skill. With all that potential power, in my opinion, there should be drawbacks/choices.

    Mages/Mana users do have it a bit easy in some aspects of the game. For one, ‘Mages. only ‘need’ 2 stats(Str/Int), where as ‘Dexxers’ need all 3(Str/Dex/Int). Secondly, mana users have it pretty good since the ruinic kits and resources involved in their armor is worlds easier to obtain and has no drawbacks(less resists).

    In the end, I feel that FC-1 is not unfair for mages.
     
  26. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    namely that it is possible they thought giving a crafted weapon the potential for three positive mods, in respect to mages in particular, couple with the ability to cast spells while equipped with the thing, may have seemed to them at the time as far too powerful.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I just don't seem to understand the way the devs think to build the game.

    Nothing is uniform to one system type.

    Armour.

    Leather has the ability to give you luck/resist.
    Metal has the ability to give you luck/resist.
    Wood can give you luck/resist + mods.

    The same for the weapon variants.

    Why don't the other two have the same?

    Why would they allow 2 hit spells on the same weapon? Doesn't that seem over powering?

    Why do woods give different resists on shield then they do on armor, when metal gives the same to both?

    What does a -SC serve? Do you see any mages who are willing to give up 2/5-6 casting for a weapon? And not to mention it can ruin a weapon for chiv/necro chars.

    Why have a heartwood in fel? reds can't go in anyway, and all does is act like a house for blues that are flagged on you and run away.

    Why do two+ weapons, with the exact same swing speed, and both require two hands, have two different damages?

    Why doesn't metal armor offer more base protection then leather?

    Why do we offer dexxers and archers the means to stay in the fight (quivers, bandy talis) without changing their suits, but not the same for mages (LRC)?

    I think I need to take a break from this stupid game.
     
  27. Guest

    Guest Guest

    You need dex on a mage too.

    Ever been EO Pain spiked?
     
  28. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>


    I've had enough gold to buy one (or more) so many times It's crazy. I just prefer to buy my weapons outright, not burning runics and hoping.

    I do bods too, have for years, and I only have 2-3 val runic bods. A few verite larges though. I just don't spend much time doing the blacksmith ones anymore now that they changed resources.

    Hell, I see one on LS right now for 33m.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Thats awesome. So the point is - you have never used one. Why? Because spending 33m on 15 swings to 'maybe' make a decent weapon is insane.

    Thats about 2.1 mil per swing. Is a 160 luck weapon worth 2.1 mil? That is if you got it on one swing. You'd probably need 20 swings or so to make one - which means it would cost you around 50 million to craft one. Now, do you think anyone would pay 50 million for a 160 luck weapon when you can get a 140 luck one for much less?

    Lets be real for a minute shall we?

    If I used a Val hammer - you can be darn sure I'm not trying to craft some sort of luck blade with it.
     
  29. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    <blockquote><hr>


    I just don't seem to understand the way the devs think to build the game.

    Nothing is uniform to one system type.


    [/ QUOTE ]

    Here I agree with you.

    Why is everything so messed up?

    Two reasons :

    1) Crafting has been passed between so many devs that were 'new' to it that they all added/changed things that are not consistent. Its a freaking mess right now. There are at least 15 open bugs with crafted items that just simply do not behave like they should.

    2)Lack of any real QA department. The fact that something like a rangers shortbow (+5% SSI) has been broken from the day it was released shows you there is no testing process. If you craft one with ash (10% SSI) - it comes out with 6% SSI. It is still this way and has always been this way. This is not a complex test case but THE VERY FIRST ONE QA SHOULD HAVE RAN when testing Rangers Shortbows in the ML release. I mean, they couldn't seem to spare someone to just sit down and craft all of the new items with diff woods to see if they worked properly. It is downright embarassing for them don you think? 10% + 5% does not equal 6%.
     
  30. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    <blockquote><hr>

    namely that it is possible they thought giving a crafted weapon the potential for three positive mods, in respect to mages in particular, couple with the ability to cast spells while equipped with the thing, may have seemed to them at the time as far too powerful.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I just don't seem to understand the way the devs think to build the game.

    Nothing is uniform to one system type.

    Armour.

    Leather has the ability to give you luck/resist.
    Metal has the ability to give you luck/resist.
    Wood can give you luck/resist + mods.

    The same for the weapon variants.

    Why don't the other two have the same?

    Why would they allow 2 hit spells on the same weapon? Doesn't that seem over powering?

    Why do woods give different resists on shield then they do on armor, when metal gives the same to both?

    What does a -SC serve? Do you see any mages who are willing to give up 2/5-6 casting for a weapon? And not to mention it can ruin a weapon for chiv/necro chars.

    Why have a heartwood in fel? reds can't go in anyway, and all does is act like a house for blues that are flagged on you and run away.

    Why do two+ weapons, with the exact same swing speed, and both require two hands, have two different damages?

    Why doesn't metal armor offer more base protection then leather?

    Why do we offer dexxers and archers the means to stay in the fight (quivers, bandy talis) without changing their suits, but not the same for mages (LRC)?

    I think I need to take a break from this stupid game.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I actually agree with most of this post, except for the SC/-1FC issue and the last line. I do have to admit that I don't PvP, so the EO-&gt;PS has happaned to me very rarely, if at all. We may not see mages giving up the 2/5-6 over a weapon because they made the choice to not use SC weapons, but the choice is still there.

    If SC/FC-1 didn't exist we might see the tank mage again, maybe even the Archer/Mage. I'm not sure if that would be a good thing, again I don't PvP, so I wouldn't really know. From my casual PvM perspective, I have no problem with the SC/FC-1.
     
  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    In UO I've seen insane amounts of gold spent on just being one of the first people to have an item.

    I bet I could get alot more then 2m for a weapon with 160 luck on it.

    Besides, the luckblades are leafblades, which, if you don't get a good luck one, you might still get an insane leafblade out of it and they are far from bad weapons.
     
  32. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "If SC/FC-1 didn't exist we might see the tank mage again, maybe even the Archer/Mage."

    Already have an Archer/Mage. He has 110 Archery/GM Tactics/GM Magery/110 Eval/GM Med/GM Focus/GM Resist. Archer/Mages can still do some downright nasty near insta-kill combos if timed right. Exp+FS+AI Shot is nasty, more powerful than the Necro's Exp+FS+Pain Spike combo. Exp+FS+Concussion Blow is just plain lethal if used on another Mage, considering the X-Bow itself does 15+ damage to a person in all 70's Resist, and the Conc Blow's damage is based on the difference between the target's current Health/Mana, and after the Exp+FS hits, their's gonna be a huge difference in the other Mage's Health/Mana. Exp+FS+Mortal Strike isn't that bad either.

    My Archer/Mage's Composite Bow has SC (No Neg)/14% HCI/30% SSI/30% Dam Inc.
     
  33. Greatfellow

    Greatfellow Guest

    Well, non-medable armor is a drawback for mages, too. Goes with the -1 weapon philosophy that you are a mage not a melee person. I'm not saying you should agree that a mage shouldn't be also a melee character, just saying that -1 weapons are consistent with the original UO philosophy that makes melee's originally best armor (metal stuff) non-medable. Remember, UO's original setup gave you greatest melee protection with metal armors. Changes have made that sadly history, of course.

    Anyway, I can see why the game makers would try to make you pay a price for being a magician who wants to wield a blade; make you think a bit to be successful in accomodating both of the very divergent fighting styles of sorcery and sword.
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    yes, but why -1 casting?

    Why not - HCI, or -SSI, or -Dmg Inc?

    Those seem to me, to be more in line with not allowing the mage to be to dexxer like, instead of having it take away from casting.
     
  35. <blockquote><hr>

    Do you happen to know which item that is? I may have to do some test crafting on test and eventually buy some runic hammers &amp; the appropriate gems.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Look here. A few months ago I managed to craft a few on test center, so it works. Unfortunately it is a double handed weapon (as you pointed somewhere above).

    A lot of people ignore that the bonus you can get from the UOML craftable magic weapons do stack with the material properties and the runic properties.

    I am also still amazed that some still ignore the bonus you can get from armslore, but that is another story.

    Basically, when you have a runic it is always a good idea to go look in the UOML craftable list. Imagine you have an heartwood kit : what about crafting Lightweight Shortbows? They come with the balanced property. Now add the bonus from the runic and the wood and you can have make uber bows
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    "If SC/FC-1 didn't exist we might see the tank mage again, maybe even the Archer/Mage."

    Already have an Archer/Mage. He has 110 Archery/GM Tactics/GM Magery/110 Eval/GM Med/GM Focus/GM Resist. Archer/Mages can still do some downright nasty near insta-kill combos if timed right. Exp+FS+AI Shot is nasty, more powerful than the Necro's Exp+FS+Pain Spike combo. Exp+FS+Concussion Blow is just plain lethal if used on another Mage, considering the X-Bow itself does 15+ damage to a person in all 70's Resist, and the Conc Blow's damage is based on the difference between the target's current Health/Mana, and after the Exp+FS hits, their's gonna be a huge difference in the other Mage's Health/Mana. Exp+FS+Mortal Strike isn't that bad either.

    My Archer/Mage's Composite Bow has SC (No Neg)/14% HCI/30% SSI/30% Dam Inc.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    That is kind of my point, and why I threw the Archer/Mage in there. If there wasn't a natural FC-1 associated with SC then I'm sure that char would be that much more dominant.

    As for why not -HCI/-Dmg from the OPer ... SC is a mod that is associated with magery thus the balancing effect was also associated with magery, originally. I can't think of a better balancing effect that would be associated with magery except -## Magery skill, but that is already present on Mage Weapons(which is effectively -HCI for non -0 MWs).