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Why is there still animosity against reds

Discussion in 'UHall' started by NorCal, Sep 6, 2010.

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  1. NorCal

    NorCal Guest

    I've been reading stratics for a couple months now because of the classic shard debate. One thing I noticed is that a lot of people still really dislike reds and Fel in general. Why? Is it because of pre UO:R days? UO has been a consentual PvP game ever since May, 2000, when Tram was introduced. It's just a different playstyle (PvP) although it's a minority. I quit in 2004 and the Fel vs. Tram debate was still in full swing centered mostly on scrolls. So is it greed?

    Reading stratics made me miss UO and after 4 years of WoW I re-activated my account. I haven't set foot in Fel yet, my gear suck and none of my characters are scrolled, but if I did and got killed it wouldn't bother me at all. I know the risk of going to Fel. I have the option to not participate.
     
  2. Merion

    Merion Lore Master
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    Seriously, I don't know. Am wondering the same thing.
     
  3. Beastmaster

    Beastmaster Guest

    So you come back and the only thing you can bring to the table is re-opening the age old debate. It's not going to change and this thread will quickly spiral down into the cesspool that all the threads before have. There's no point in re-hashing this old crap.

    Anyway to negatively rate a thread?
     
  4. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    It's not every person who hates every red. However, drop in on General chat for a while, and you'll see a tiny minority of total jackasses repeating every obscenity they know, blaming everyone else for cheating, speedhacking and abusing game systems, calling each other every name under the sun - and guess what, the HUGE majority of those people are in Fel.

    I'm sure there are decent people playing there. I know for a fact there are a group of very vocal, active and totally repellent idiots playing there. Guess why I choose not to play in Fel....
     
  5. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    Shush...trammel is ------------> way. :lol:
     
  6. IMO, the opening of Tramms did NOT mean "consentual" pvp in Fel.
    Im not buying anyones crap, even the Dev's, that once you go into a red gate you consent. Horsepucky! I have friends who's houses are in fel, and Im "consenting" to go to their home, for whatever reason, period, at that time.
    "Consenting" would be answering "YES" to being ASKED if I would desire some sort of pvp action.
    I speak for NO ONE except myself in stating my position on this.
    The actual dying bothers me none whatsoever. The yack afterwards, and its ALWAYS there (you know the words) can be blocked in my client, and I can change the channel on the global chat ****-talking idiocy introduced by morons with no idea of the lack of self control of most of the twits in there that yack the usual cursing and accusations of cheating, as well.
    But should I have to?
    Is this consentual fel pvp BS included in the "consent" once enterring a red gate?
    Im all for a "classic" shard, but I laugh when its called that by players who dont know jack about what it was in 97, or moreover what it was SUPPOSED to be in 96/97 beta, but I'll play along with this "classic" shard as long as all the yackers are automatically transferred to it once its live, and have their own chat and they can all "go for it" on their "classic" shard, and leave the rest of us in our blissful tramms and actually have "consentual" pvp in factions.
    Nuff said.
    :stir:
     
  7. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    Re: Why is there still animosity against Blues

    And reds/PvPers dislike blues and trammel because now those of us that don't like to PvP or don't know how are no longer easy targets to boost their murder counts or their egos.
     
  8. Adol

    Adol Certifiable
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    I've highlighted the part that is both the centre of problem, and an illustration of the attitudes that exasperates it.

    In fact, the debate has been going on since the first player killed another 13 years ago. And some of you've not listened in all that time to what the other side of the experience thinks. You just lazily assume a negative judgement about them, "Greed", because you assume your experience is objectively better, because you happen to subjectively enjoy it more.

    Seriously, you take a comment from 4 years after Trammel was introduced, specific to that particular patch, and apply it both retrospectively back to players who couldn't have imagined even Trammel itself, and retroactively to players 6 years later when the market has long since been flooded, and characters scrolled up to the eyeballs?

    In the meantime the Devs have bent over backwards to try and open up your playstyle to others. Scrolls was just one part of that; They are still working on it now, giving you Arenas to try and show those watching safe in the stands that not everything in Felucca involves foul mouthed, self obsessed little oiks, and that combat can be fun and exhilarating and yes, perhaps even honourable... It doesn't work though, and never will because what they and you just don't accept is we know what we like, and it isn't that. And you know as well as I do that it'll quickly devolve into something that embarrasses every decent Red back across the moongates... Arenas are going to be the place you go when you move to a new shard, to find out who to put straight onto Ignore.

    And we have tried it the Real Thing too; some of us couldn't avoid it at first. And some of us have dipped our toes in later to test and re-rest our assumptions... I still remember in 2002 when the Sosaria Red Cross volunteered to stand in a marked off area and resurrect and heal people who died during a huge inter-guild Felucca rumble... needless to say some jack ass proceeded to kill all we unarmed healers to grief the event, and their fellow Feluccans. And others have gone to champ spawns since, been unable to compete against Ghost cams, or today speed hacks...

    Now people would happily leave you to enjoy Felucca, which you clearly do, if some of you didn't warp every single thread, General Chat channel and facebook post, and general debate about gaming any and everywhere towards your own obsessions, insulting everyone else merrily as you go. And whilst all the time keep getting even objective facts wrong; the infamous MMO charts that show patches that were going to "kill the game" which didn't; the other games that would kill this game that didn't; I think the best of all is the inability to even agree on which set of rules actually is "Classic" Ultima Online... Go and read the long thread on such, and witness posters get basic facts about what they want wrong, such as calling Publish 16 the introduction of Trammel...

    And all the while ignoring completely the decade of MMO evolution since then... you yourself have just come back from the world's most successful MMO ever, and it's Trammel with optional dueling. Even WoWs PvP servers are not free PvP, but faction based with huge safe zones. And no cross faction talk (and Ignore lists right out the gate) to prevent trash talking. There's Soulbinding to put brakes on the player economy and inflation, automatic loot rolling on the worthwhile stuff to prevent ninjaing... The world has moved on, and learnt from Ultima Online, and avoided it's mistakes today. Even if you could turn the clock back on a UO server, we won't be going back there with you. That world is gone forever, because the only people who'd be there would be those who wanted to be, not everyone like we had to be back then because we had no choice. The doors out have opened and we've gone through and away. We'll stay on our Trammel servers now. Turn every single UO shard into a "Classic" and we've got double figures for games that have similar rule sets elsewhere. And I've still got my Amiga and PC copies of all the Ultima single players if I want that specific Ultima atmosphere...

    So... THIS is why we are tired of "reds". Again, it's been 13 years, and some of your eyes are still locked shut in 1997; some of you've learned nothing, understood nothing, matured in no way, and insist on ruining everything you can even now with your constant blinkered judgements and obsessive interests long after you've over-exposed them to the point where people wince as soon as they see you coming.

    All of that may not apply to you NorCal... but kindly leave your assumptions about "Greed" on the red side of your moongate, lest you find that increasingly it does...
     
  9. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    Re: Why is there still animosity against Blues

    more like you've(die hard trammel enthusiasts) successfully lobbied to have pvp treated as a ******* play style, instill on new players that pvp is evil and to receive the vast majority of content and live content as exclusive to trammel.

    If you successfully limited my play for 10 years to a shrinking portion of an already small game, I'd be pretty upset. Oh wait, I am pretty upset.
     
  10. Omnius

    Omnius Crazed Zealot
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    I know you spent time on this but it's really little more than 1 long run on rant without real substance.
     
  11. Fink

    Fink Guest

    I think the OP said the opening of Trammel introduced an area of consensual pvp (tram) for those who preferred it that way. If either party in Trammel doesn't agree to fight, they don't have to fight.

    Felucca pvp has always been non-consensual in that nobody needs your permission to attack you. You don't give your consent to be attacked when you enter Felucca so much as waive the protection against it. You can go to Felucca without necessarily wanting to be attacked but the onus is on you to avoid it.
     
  12. Schuyler Bain

    Schuyler Bain Lore Master
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    Well said.

    *tips tricorn*
     
  13. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    This.

    And the fact that currently the vast majority of "Trammies" have gotten most of their Fel experience base off of exploiters who find ways to trick folk using cons and exploits into going to Fel either knowingly or unknowingly to kill them and rob them.

    This is the experience that most have and remember. Some take that experience and then try to learn all they can about PvP to "Pay back" the foul deed. However most look at it as the most negative experience they have had in-game and if they don't quit right then and there they deem Fel a land of corrupt scum and vow never to set foot there again.

    Add to that the usual chat going on in General Chat on a majority of shards and you get the picture of why most people think Fel is full of folk who are either 12 or never grew up past the 12 year old mentality. And if you want any proof of this just look at the choices of character names of many reds in Fel or the names of their blue "Trammy" characters and you can't help but see the "big picture".

    It's not obscure it's as clear as the name over their heads.

    Debate all you like but the image is clear in the chat, in the name over the heads and in the actions of the players.

    Do I hate PvP? Heck no. I love PvP... however I like my PvP to have purpose and I prefer it to be consensual. I also prefer it to be balanced. I've no desire to get ganked or to gank anyone else. I like a fair fight. I see no point to fighting 12 on 1. Victory of this sort is hardly a victory at all. There is no honor in it and it's hollow. Much like a victory won using cheats, exploits and/or hacks. The only winner of that sort of fight is the one who chooses not to participate at all.
     
  14. Gidge

    Gidge Sage
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    As i was running through a few dungeons this morning in Felucca and in T2A, it occurred to me that i miss being able to escape like before. i wondered why the UO Gods deemed it necessary to remove my ability to recall from harms way.

    It was easy enough to be hunting and if i seen a red, just poof away, thus protecting myself. i know they took this away to prevent people recalling in the heat of battle, using it as a tactic, instead of staying for the fight, but to those of us who don't wish to fight, at the desire of someone else, it was a tool needed to prevent our means of escape.

    The lack of insurance years ago prompted us prey to develop a lack of yumminess to reds in general. Red became synonymous with "you are going to lose your stuff". (yes to blues too, i know i know). But a red? for sure!

    Now, even with the advent of item insurance, there is a certain queasiness of being chased to your death. The general populace is accustomed to AI of monsters, but the intelligence of a person? The racy feeling of not knowing if the person seen you, will give chase, will talk nicely...Hi! How's the hunt? *Paralyze* *Flamestrike* *Paralyze* *Ebolt* *Paralyze* *Ebolt*
    Or just go on about their business. They ARE RED for a reason. They HAD to kill a few souls to attain that.

    Yes i realize i have more or less described Pk'ers, But Since we have no true PVP ability in UO, forgive me if i called them Players Killers.

    I don't think me hunting in a certain area, or just walking to one of my homes, gives anyone the right to make me a victim of their desire to kill me.

    I would accept PVP, i don't accept being PK'ed.

    All that being said! Let me say, i go to Felucca strictly to experience that feel that i can get from no other source in UO. To see if i can indeed get in and out before someone cacks me.

    i have no want of pitting my skills or abilities against someone else to bolster my ego or to prove my worthiness.

    Maybe the Arena will give people a true PVP taste. It does look great that's for sure! i think it's cute with the Gargoyle tiles they used to build it.

    Did i say cute? ug.
     
  15. hen

    hen Certifiable
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    Red players often stop a player from attaining some kind of goal. That is why there is animosity against reds. Here are some examples I see from my own game-play as a red.

    1. A player is attempting to kill Bacaroon to attain scrolls. My red attacks him. I am barring him from attaining scrolls.

    2. A player is mining ore. My red attacks him. I am an obstacle in the path of his resource gathering activity.

    3. A player is script-taming bulls on North-Jhelom island. My red attacks her. I am hindering her attempts to gain skill.

    In all three examples I am stopping the player or hindering the player from getting what they want. This can create animosity from them to me.

    I hope this is simple enough.
     
  16. why shouldn't there be animosity against reds? that's what fuels being red anyways. the stigma, the power. the battles are almost already won once a red appears on screen. :lol:
     
  17. Siteswap

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    I think the short answer is because they dont want the inconvenience of being killed by another player. And thats why the vast majority of players never set foot in Fel. I dont think theres any great rhyme nor reason behind it. Its as simple as that.
     
  18. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    Re: Why is there still animosity against Blues

    Truest post ever
     
  19. TheBlackCobra

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    This, for me, as well as some of the reasons given by Adol before. The griefing of an event planned by the Fel community to encourage Tram players to visit succeeded in convincing me it wasn't worth the hassle of going there. If some reds have no respect for other Fellucians (and I apologize if I misspelled that), and go out of their way to drive potential new Fellucians away... why is it surprising there'd be animosity towards them?

    I enjoy a visit to Fel sometimes, on my thief. There's nothing he can really do there, but it's exciting to run the risk of death. However, ever since the game went item-based, I won't go there on any character that would even have a chance of winning a fair fight - and I gather I'd be lucky to GET a fair fight these days, anyway. Hopefully the devs will be able to resolve the rampant 3rd party app abuse in both facets soon.
     
  20. Budwieser

    Budwieser Guest

    Re: Why is there still animosity against Blues

    Ummm your wrong. I play mostly red chars on 4 diff shards. I dislike blues because they sit in guards zone most the time, they don't have stat loss when not in factions, and they seem to jump in on a random gank after sitting and watching pvp for awhile. It's for those reason's that I attack every blue char I run into outside the pvp areas. I hope that one of them would be a stratics poster like you ;) It has nothing to do with ego good sir, nothing.

    The Bud.
     
  21. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    You know, it always makes me chuckle when I see griefing described or suggested as being a red player or Fel specific issue.

    Post-Tram, over the years, I've seen more harassment and griefing going on in Tram than Fel.

    Go figure.

    Note - No doubt this will be turned into "it's Fel players entering Tram to grief".
     
  22. Arcus

    Arcus Grand Poobah
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    Well you certainly have done your part in starting spiral havent you? Nice job.
     
  23. Requiem_baja

    Requiem_baja Visitor

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    Every one of the trammies seem for forget that if you go to yew gate there are 15 trammies hiding in guardzone waiting to gank a red whos actually getting a decent 1v1. Then they all go back and hide in their precious guards.
     
  24. NorCal

    NorCal Guest

    You are the type of person that made me ask this question. After reading the Summon Fey for Reds yesterday seeing your response

    You obviously have a lot of animosity still. All I wanted to know was why? Others have answered the question. You added nothing, but you showed your prejudice.
     
  25. Demonous

    Demonous Rares Fest Host | Ches Jul 2010
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    someone got pked one too many times rolleyes:
     
  26. Slickjack

    Slickjack Rares Fest Host | Cats Nov 2010
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    I am as much of a trammy as anyone. I am GM of a tram based guild, and own a freagin pixel crack museum on Catskills.

    But guess what???

    I have one account that every single one of the 7 characters is RED!!

    GASP!

    Almost all of them went red years ago, except one that went red this past year and he simply went red because of one dude on my shard that likes to try to use his blue instead of his OJ because he is relatively a non-factor otherwise...

    The current faction system has really made it possible to PVP without having reds anyway, so the old system is definitely just that: the old system.

    Thanks for showing your small mindedness and narrow thinking ways....

    LONG LIVE the right to CHOOSE your own playstyle!
     
  27. i dunno, i think red is a fun status, and don't mind that my red chars are jailed to fel for eternity. though i rather fel just be called 'the asylum', since it's very fitting.

    i just rather the desolation be a fall/winter effect rather than the lame gravestones and blood.
     
  28. Myna

    Myna Guest

    yea i like reds because they kill my defenseless miner and taking my ingots etc. and yes i like reds because i do the work at champ spawns with a pvm char just to get ganked when the boss is out.

    this are just 2 example why i love reds


    next stupid question please
     
  29. PASmountaindew

    PASmountaindew Babbling Loonie
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    Re: Why is there still animosity against Blues

    I personally have never done any of what you just said. I do go to Fel when I want either by myself or with guild mates to do events planned by the guild I am in. I have also PvPed. I just personally don't enjoy PvPing when it is 5 vs. 1 and I am the 1. Gank Squads to me are like neighborhood gangs. They go in and try to dominate everything and in the process turn the neighborhood into a squallier. No one likes to live or hang out in those places. And with the introduction of a certain 3rd party program and scripts no those gangsters have an overwhelming advantage over people that do not use those cheats and tactics. Some people are generally good at heart and just want to have fun. But on the other side of that same coin there are people that are generally just heartless and want to do nothing but make other people suffer. I pity the latter group because they have nothing better in life other than trying to prove to themselves that they are somebody by going out and killing someone's character in a game and making the player of that character feel worthless.
     
  30. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
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    Amen. This is exactly why I don't like reds. In know it is generalities and branding all with the same brush but for the most part I find them with maturity level of a 10 year old. There may be a few respectable ones but its like 90% that show no social skills or maturity whatsoever.

    I'm much older and I prefer not to associate with 10 year olds.

    Its amazing how fired up they all get about 'your a gimp, you speedhack, fight me 1vs 1, blah blah blah'. At the end of the day it is a video game with bad graphics.

    You have a pretty warped and pathetic life if you think anyone cares what you accomplish in a video game. I actually do not even tell my friends and co-workers I play this game. Its my dirty little secret that occupies some free time while I watch TV or whatnot.

    If I came into the office and start boasting about who I killed in a video game - please shoot me.
     
  31. Budwieser

    Budwieser Guest

    Wow...next time think your post through....

    UO was founded on risk and reward.
    Your miner is getting killed in fel... Take him to tram?? EA made tram for people who didn't want to be killed by other players, but im sure you can still be attacked by monsters??

    And as for your champ experience, LOL... we all (even reds) get "ganked" at champ spawns. I've been ganked many times on my red char by other red groups.
    It's obvious you have never been to a champ spawn more than a few times or you would know this.

    So Myna.. Your grounded from trying to post on information that doesn't relate to you.
    This post= no relation to your game play experience's.

    To be honest here guys and gals. Most blue players in fel are alt's for our red chars anyways.
    The 4 shards I play on, most of the blue players that play in fel never complain on the shard boards. And they seem to enjoy the Good vrs Evil theme that comes along with it.

    And for the record, as others have stated. Alot of the players in tram that never come to fel are as arrogant and foul mouthed as any red player that plays and lives in fel.


    The Bud.
     
  32. Budwieser

    Budwieser Guest

    I agree with you to some extent.

    Don't label all reds as such though. As stated in my above post. Alot of trash walks in tram.

    And why hide the part of the game you enjoy? Your ashamed that your an older person playing a online video game? or just part of the game?

    Just curious.

    The Bud.
     
  33. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    I hate reds because of underware.

    They force me to only wear underware in UO for over a year anytime I wanted to leave town. If not then I returned to town in underware. So humiliating.
     
  34. Tanivar

    Tanivar Crazed Zealot
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    Mine exists primarily because of my experiences in Fel back in the UO:Ren days. Having my unarmed miner in normal clothing ganked by a PKer in full armor & using a weapon who then prances in a 'I'm a REAL Stud! fashion' around the body doing his 'I pwned you! I'm such a tough barney baddie! I kicked your rump! I so L33T!' babble that I have no respect for them.

    The personalities they RP can only inspire animosity.

    EA can toss all the bait for PKer targets they want into Fel. I'll rarely go there, and then only to civilized areas PvPers roam.
     
  35. Lord Nabin

    Lord Nabin High Council Sage - Greater Sosaria
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    Reds are fine. Its a play style.

    If it were not for the Reds we would not know what it ment to be Blue.

    Lets try changing the argument to...

    Whats wrong with those Miners they ignore me all the time and keep working then they just recall off when I try to strike up a convesation.

    Oh my Gosh. I actually have to agree with Norcal on this one.
     
  36. Simply put...Trammies hate reds because reds make the game too hard for Trammies.

    They don't "hate" lich lords, they don't "hate" Ancient Wryms...but let one of them die to a player...and the hate meter spikes instantly. It all has to do with taking things way too personally, and people not realizing that the game was intended to be a Player vs. Player enviroment.

    Of course, the arguments will now come that if the game was meant to be PvP, it would have stayed that way...but that mostly comes from people that were not there when the game launched...and is a lie.

    Ultima Online was meant to be a player controlled, player policed, PvP environment. It was probably the worst thing that has ever happened to the game when that aspect was removed, and was replaced with a no-risk, no-player responsibility, EasyMode, version that caters to item hoarding and selfish single-player minded gameplay.

    Feel free to flame my post...I could not care less.
     
  37. TheDeacon

    TheDeacon Seasoned Veteran
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    TRUTH
     
  38. Frolet

    Frolet Guest

    If blues hate reds so much why don't all the trammies stay in tram and leave actual pvpers alone.
     
  39. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Cause those darn reds have blues and come to trammel. And in siege everyone stuck with each other!!
     
  40. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    This argument is circular and pointless
     
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