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Why is UO so BENT on making plate worthless?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Skrag, Jan 9, 2011.

  1. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

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    Hearing from the imbuer who does stuff for me.

    "plate doesnt really have a place in UO anymore, you see the base resists on plate are a lot lower than leather and some of the resits cant be imbued as high as leather either"

    Jesus Christ. Why don't you just delete it from the game?
     
  2. I Play UO

    I Play UO Visitor

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    If they did that with everything useless in UO they would be left with very little...
     
  3. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    This has been a problem for YEARS now.

    I didn't mind AOS as much as some, but one of its BIGGEST failings was that it COMPLETELY removed the trade-off balances between the different armor types and in the process gave leather all of the benefits (lower weight, meddable, stealthable, lower str requirements) and DROPPED the balancing tradeoff (lower AR/Resists). WIth imbuing it goes even further as "Mage Armor" becomes a de-facto free mod allowing leather to imbue to an effective 6 mods.

    And if you think Plate has it bad, think about how bad, think how bad it is for Scale!
     
  4. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Probably a design error from the start of AOS that never got fixed.
    Developers probybly thought enough warriors would not need mana and plate would be sueful... before they introduced more and more mana dependant skills.
    :p
     
  5. Jynxx

    Jynxx Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran Campaign Supporter ShadowStorm

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    QFT.


    And like he said, dragon armor (scale) and bone armor have been worthless from the beginning. Can't recycle, costs extra ingredients to build..there is ZERO reason to ever bother making scale or bone.

    And that's a shame.
     
  6. sirion

    sirion Seasoned Veteran
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    Petition for plate armors!! Justice needed!!

    Plate = Leather!!

    1. Lower STR requirements on plates
    2. Make all materials med-able


    My top-1 wish of all time has been addressed by imbuing. What's Top-2?

    Plate armors!!
     
  7. Valorite Plate total base resists = 48
    Barbed Leather total base resists = 47

    The Imbue caps for Plate total the same as Leather they are just in different places.

    Plate = 20/18/17/18/17 = 90
    Leather = 17/19/18/18/18 = 90
     
  8. Martyna Zmuir

    Martyna Zmuir Crazed Zealot

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    All the craftable armors should just have the same base resists at this point. Not only is plate useless, so is dragon armor, chain, ring, etc.

    This would bring back diversity in people's looks... at least under the ubiquitous robes... One thing at a time.
     
  9. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
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    I highly doubt they're bent on it. Plate has already been useless since AOS. But why delete it? If you want them to delete plate just because it's worthless then why not have them delete the hundreds of other items in this game that are more useless than plate?
     
  10. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    where the hell is ralph
     
  11. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The problem is that everything in effect DOES have the same (within a range) base resists.

    The concept in fantasy games though is that there is usually a scale of protection level in armor with cloth/leather being the low end and plate etc being higher end (whether or not it makes sense in real life, that's the game scale).

    The old AR system did this, class/level based games do it based on class restrictions, etc.

    AOS broke this, and that's STILL a problem that needs to be resolved.
     
  12. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Caer, if you mean Raph, he's been gone for YEARS.
     
  13. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Don't forget you can get better diversity of resists using metal armor, since with leather you are stuck with either adding 5/0/0/0/0, 2/3/2/2/2, OR 2/1/2/3/4, where with metal you have more options to stack resists in certain places.

    Also if the argument above was true, then wood armor is by far the best, 47 total for leather, 48 total for metal, and 50 or so for wood. just imbue mage armor and you have better armor from the start (if you need it to be meddable that is). Also wood has a wider range of possible resist outcomes (like metal). Everything has a place, you just need to know what the place is.

    I actually find it much harder to get the resists I need with leather than I do with metal/wood only trouble is if I bother to imbue mage armor, I might as well just go with leather and imbue a resist. but for characters that don't need mage armor, I always use metal or wood depending on the situation.
     
  14. Babble

    Babble Guest

    If they remove the mediation penalty from metal armor and the mage armor property then all materials would be equal?
     
  15. Kas Althume

    Kas Althume Crazed Zealot
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    Maybe they should just add a free property for plate like the "mage armor" on leather? Say each plate part you use gives +10hp, each chain +7HP each ring +5HP?
     
  16. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    Plate went on the skids when they allowed leather to be as effective in resists as plate used to be. <shrug>
     
  17. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Would make most leather useless xD. And if they did it for wood, then everything except wood armor would be used.
     
  18. This is completely wrong info and I am amazed that only Lord God noticed it.
    Plate basic resists are a total of 15, studded are 16 and leather are 15. With the material bonus, then plate (non medable), and studded (non medable), have the same exact maximum total, while leather is one point lower.
    Technically, leather is simply on par with metal, while much less versatile. It s easier to get your caps with a mix of different metals than leathers...
     
  19. I am not exactly sure about what you mean. There is a metal armor type that comes with mage armor as a bonus. But the mage armor property is anything but free, it really takes one imbue slot and a lot of intensity points.
     
  20. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    He is saying to add a free prop to plat armor, or an invisible one like leather has. So leather has free "Mage armor" so give plat free "Hit point increase", that is the basic Idea.
     
  21. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Would it not be easier to just remove the meditation+ dex penalty from all armor?
     
  22. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I have no opinion on removing the meditation penalty.

    But I must point out that the dexterity penalty was removed as far back as Age of Shadows.

    -Galen's player
     
  23. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I'm confused.

    Some appear to be agreeing with the original post, that mechanics have made leather notably inferior to leather. (We're talking beyond the meditation issue here.)

    Some appear to be disagreeing with it.

    Who's right?

    I have long-supported giving a PvM-only damage absorption property, similar to and not stacking with Swamp Dragon barding, to an entire suit of non-meddable armor of any stripe. (Of course, unfortunately, this would mean Samurai Plate wouldn't have it, but a Samurai can just ride a swamp dragon in that event. And "western" plate surely needs something.)

    I don't thinks this is exactly the same issue, but it would appear to be related.

    -Galen's player
     
  24. Pretty much might as well just imbue robes with stats.

    They ruined the positive and negatives to armour types 5 plus years ago.

    Every since then it doesnt matter if you wear a robe with stats. Leather armour, plate, tree branches.

    The fact is the material plays little part in todays game. A leath cap is as strong as a plate helm.
     
  25. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I meant the silly str requirement of plate.
    That is still there or?
    90 str to wear useless plate?
     
  26. covert

    covert Journeyman
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    I can't find a single reason as to why this shouldn't have been fixed in 2003. It's silly that it's gone on this long without having any benefit or even being on par with leather.
     
  27. That is not very accurate information either... Actually the non medable bone, studded and plate armor parts are historical.
    Armor parts became much better than leather with the samourai expansion, because all armor was made with runic then and smith runic are vastly superior to tailor kits. SE brought the free mage armor on metal armor (it s free if you use a smith kit).

    In the past (before item properties), meditation users would be using leather because that was the only meditable ressource. I think most warriors were using chain, plate was hard to craft (no 120, no ASH), and no significant bonus. It was only a banksitting thing (like wearing a full valorite plate armor at the bank...).

    Nowadays, things are different because most rely on imbuing to craft their armors. But to be honest, it s not such a difference between a non medable armor and a medable one if your int is low and you have no medit. Actually, on that type of character, I prefer metal, because it s easier to customize your caps with it, than with the use of leather.
     
  28. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Yeah also would say there is no different between leather and plate armor considering the resistances.

    The problem with the plate armor is that it is no mage armor and that it has the same resistance total than leather 15.

    Okay i see with valorite you can get a bonus of 13 instead of 12 with barbed leather but that isnt soo much compared to the loose of mediable property.

    But really a plate is cool and plates are useless a long time, with imbuing you got again the chance to make it playable also if you can not get the best out of it.
     
  29. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    would be nice if they could add some bonus resists to plate, like 10 or so. that adds up fast

    the garg plate looks pimp
     
  30. UOKaiser

    UOKaiser Guest

    Becareful what you ask for we are talking about UO here. The most likely course they will take is nerf leather armor and leave plate the same to satisfy using plate. Remmeber almost every modification made in the past this would be what they would do.
     
  31. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    IMO they should just remove the mage armor mod from being a necessity to med through anything heavier then Studded Leather with the current system of crafting. If they plan on making a benefit to wearing heavier armor (like increased resist caps) then keep it as is with mage armor otherwise it's pointless.
     
  32. The problem I see with balancing armor at present is... it is already to easy to make an amazing suit with what we have.

    My main wears full plate and a bone helm, he always will. I do realize however that I could make an amazing leather (or wood depending) suit that is far superior stat wise.

    If the devs add incentives for metal armor I cannot see them being balanced as making it any easier to reach resist cap is insane.

    Armor should either become purely cosmetic (all same base resists/etc, just look is different) or the entire system needs a revamp.

    Perhaps for metal armor add 1-2 more imbuing slots per piece? The most painful thing right now is wasting a slot for mage armor :(
     
  33. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    They could force some benefits as far as pvm goes, they could increase the pvm resist caps, making it impossible for leather to reach the caps. Or they could go with the most obvious answer and rework ALL armor, not affecting anything prior to the patch, sure it would make current armor worth a ton more, but then most people don't have extreme amounts of super armor laying around.

    But again leather is not Superior to the other types, people not knowing how to make the best of the materials in game is not entirely the developers fault. Smith hammers have always been supperior to tailor kits, Metal made armor prior to SA crafted with smith runics was the best way to get the most out of your items. Now after SA if you do not require med, metal still offers better variety and thus better chances of getting what you need with out wasting a mod on imbuing a resist, and even further Wood offers even better options, but most woods and some of the metals need to be enhanced after imbuing in order to get the full benefit (only frostwood and maybe ash can you make armor out of before imbuing, since they do not add any props to armor aside from resists, but all the other woods you would have to enhance after imbuing).
     
  34. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    The complexity of UO has become to deep in this area. the most realistic idea now is to add a "reinforce" options to all crafter menus. Reinforce leather with copper and what not, changing the graphic from leather to plate or chain or what have you.
     
  35. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I think we should simply be able to convert any item slot into A same slot item graphic (aka sashes to full aprons, aprons to those SE belt things, hats to glasses, you get the picture.)
     
  36. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Yep, keep it simple. Kinda like how they let you change the Vet reward robes and cloaks now to different designs. That's kinda sweet... to bad no one used them now though lol.
     
  37. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    quick fix, quadruple the weight of all leather armor. worked for alchemy.
     
  38. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    lol. Hater =p.
     
  39. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    Lol good fix! But, that was reasonable for pots imo.
     
  40. i'm not sure if this was because it was gargoyle armor, but my valorite gargoyle plate chest was adding up to a total of 52 resist, while barbed leather only gave 47 total. this gave me the impression that plate is better, at least for gargoyles.
     
  41. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I don't really agree...I would say it was an "ok" super-fast-un-thought-out fix But it doesn't really fix the problem at all...

    Well Val always gives +1 resist over barbed. I am not sure about gargoyle armor.
     
  42. ingsmsico

    ingsmsico Visitor

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    where have you been? platemail has been worthless since Age of Shadows came out in 2003. stop stressing over nothing just cancel your account and forget it. it's just not worth it.
     
  43. Lord Crowen

    Lord Crowen Adventurer
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    Raph? Right here: Raph's Website
     
  44. puni666

    puni666 Slightly Crazed
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    I didn't mean it was a pot fix, it was just something that makes sense. An empty bottle's weight should be 50-75% less then that of a full potion.
     
  45. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    I would agree...Although I would have made empty bottle weigh less. ;) But for now it is ok...until they come up with something viable for how potions and ep and alchemy work.
     
  46. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    instead of bumping up the total resists per piece they need to make it so also metal armor increases the cap to say 75 or 80.
    there are 6 armor slots so each metal piece can increase the cap 1 or 2 pts. then you can mix and match.




    also im not sure why gargoyles get more resists per armor piece.
     
  47. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    If they just increased the imbue cap on non medable armor relative to its weight, that would be a good step.

    Either that or give metal some kind of inherent DCI, or pre resist damage negation or something.
     
  48. Storm

    Storm UO Forum Moderator
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    They could start by giving plate full durability for exceptional and half that for non
     
  49. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    they need to bump up durability on everything..
     
  50. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    I quote myself, as my position hasn't changed...As in I think off-hand it sounds good to have some kind of bonus either for plate or for non-meddable armor generally, especially if it's PvM-only.

    But enough people who generally know what they are talking about have disputed the original poster's contention on the inherent inferiority of plate these days to make me really wonder if it's all that big a deal.

    Beyond of course the strength requirement which I think we all agree is high; even a warrior with Spell Resist can have his or her plate armor knocked off easily.

    Funny thing is that between documentaries and books I've found out that plate armor was actually lighter and more flexible than you'd think it'd be.

    -Galen's player