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Why is wrestling so underpowered?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ezekiel Zane, Apr 14, 2008.

  1. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I know this is an old issue but can anyone explain why wrestling does so little damage?

    I made a legendary wrestler on TC and was quite amazed that the base damage was only 2-11 pts. Average damage against Ettins and Earth Elementals was like 1-5 pts per hit.

    Surely with 360 points invested into Wrestling, Tactics and Anatomy, wrestling should do more damage. I'm not thinking it should be on par as wielding a weapon but it seems too low.

    You can walk around with a Staff of the Magi or Staff of Pyros, with no combat or support skills and do 20-30 points damage to most overland or low-level spawn. If you actually invest some points into wrestling it should do damage on par with the mage weapon -0 skill items.
     
  2. stevensnr6

    stevensnr6 Guest

    Wrestling shouldn't require Tactics to do Special Moves, and yet it does ;(
     
  3. no it doest, hence why it does low damage, its primary a "mage weapon skill"
     
  4. Agree Ezekiel!! Look at Evil Mage Lords or wandering healers/Priests of Mondain, they CAN hit you well with just wrestling. Much harder than those 1-5 points. And if one thinks of making a kung fu type of char... not gonna work if you hit as hard as a chicken.... [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Would be nice if one could do some more damage with wrestling. (And no, we don't have the skill on any of our mages. We do on our beggar-monk...)
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    They should make Spiked Gauntlets that have a scripted effect of boosting your hand to hand damage to be on par with Tekagis. Plus they should set the Innate Wrest speed at 1.25 secs, so no matter what your DEX/Stam, you still punch at max speed.
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Wrest doesn't require Tactics to use Special Moves. Wrest is an exception to that rule because it is a Mage's primary defense against Weapon Attacks (Or used to be, before -0 Mage Weps and SC Weps).

    Basically nowadays, the only benefit you get from having Wrest instead of using a -0 Mage Wep is that you can perform Disarm, and not be susceptible to Disarm yourself. Plus you can have a Spellbook in your hands and still get benefit from Wrest.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think skills like wresting (and healing) need to be retooled to become multifaceted and multipurposed, considering all the skillpoints invested and little to show for it. Wouldn't it be neat if wresting was remade into a martial art, with a list of associated special moves (similar to Bushido); perhaps more defensive, considering its such a mage-associated ability, but one that a warrior could adopt alone and be effective with (*Punches the Dark Father* Ha!).

    It would be nice to see skills like healing, arms lore, item identification, and other skills become useful someday as well. There are too many skills that require alot of points to be useful, but have only one or two good abilities associated with them. Rather than creating so many new skills (Bushido, Chivalry, Spellweaving), make the old ones useful again.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Please correct me if I am wrong:
    I always thougt wrestling is mainly for not being interrupted by physical attacks while casting spells. (or at least not as often as without the skill)

    Aris of Europa
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Healing is still a useful skill. They did make Armslore semi-useful again by making it to where every 20.0 points of Armslore you have, it adds 1% Dam Inc to Exceptional Weapons, and 1 Resist to the innate Resists of Exceptional, Non Runic Crafted Armor.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If you get hit, no matter what your Wrest is, your spell will be disrupted. What Wrest does is determine whether you are hit or not, by pitting your Wrest skill vs. your opponents Wep/Wrest skill. A 120.0 Swordsman with 0 HCI/DCI will have a 50% chance of hitting a 120.0 Wrestler with 0% HCI/DCI. However that 120.0 Swordsman will have a 60% chance to hit a GM Wrestler.
     
  11. the strength of wrestling doesn't come from the melee damage, but from the ability to use spellbooks and potions. that said, a monk skill sort of like bushido that gave you special attacks and passively increased fist base damage would be cool.
     
  12. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
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    It's one of the skills that went useless when this game became item based. I used it for awhile in pvp (Disarming came in handy).

    Looking at pvm and how weak monsters holding no weapons can do so much damage to you, you realize how much of a useless skill it is. Some monsters do more damage to you when you disarm them and some monsters who you can clearly see are holding a weapon cannot be disarmed. Unless that plan on making a real use for the skill it doesn't make sense to keep it. Less of a chance to be hit doesn't quite make it worth it.
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    <blockquote><hr>

    Please correct me if I am wrong:
    I always thougt wrestling is mainly for not being interrupted by physical attacks while casting spells. (or at least not as often as without the skill)

    Aris of Europa

    [/ QUOTE ]

    It is a pretty large investment of skill points for something that has so few uses, wouldn't you say? Just by having anatomy and evaluating intellegence, a mage is granted the defensive wrestling ability. In addition, mage weapons such as the Staff of Pyros and Swords of Prosperity allow a mage equal defensive ability, without so much as a single skill point invested; not to mention such weapons deal a punch far greater than even a legendary wrester can hope to inflict.

    I am not saying that wrestling is a useless skill. Instead, I believe that wrestling as a skill has so much more potential. Redesign it around the same themes and concepts of Spellweaving and Chivalry, a skill with a book of potential abilities. So, for instance...

    - Groin Kick (Wrestler kicks opponent in the groin, stunning them for five seconds and lowering their hit chance for ten seconds)
    - Takedown (Wrestler throws opponet to the ground, making them exceptionally vulnerable for three seconds)
    - Headbutt (Wrestler deals massive damage, but temporarily stuns himself as well as his opponent for five seconds)
    - Choke (Wrestler hits opponent in the throat, preventing them from speaking the words of power necessary to cast spells for five seconds)
    - Flying Kick (Wrestler leaps towards enemy, dealing a percentage of damage based on distance, wrestling ability, and opponents physical resist. Temporarily leaves wrestler vulnerable upon landing)
    - Whirlwind Kick (Wrestler spins like a tornado, striking all enemies around him)

    ...basically, I would like to see wrestling turn into a fighting skill like Swordsmanship and Mace Fighting, not just a support skill for mages. It would be neat to see some brawler pummel an Orc. They can even emphasize the different themes, such as a more Sosarian grappling form, or the Kung Fu styles of Zento.

    I wouldn't mind seeing healing take a similar direction. Its taken a back seat to chivalry and other abilities for a long time now, which has created a dilemma for very tight templates. I wouldn't mind seeing healing develop a number of special abilities of its own. I think all skills should be multifaceted.
     
  14. midiguru

    midiguru Guest

    wrestling is pretty underpowered. Even the disarm special is kinda worthless because most weapon weilding characters have high DCI which makes it almost impossible to reliably use wrestle disarm. Disarm with something like an Ornate Axe or Mace works extremely well yet at 120 wrestle disarm works extremely bad. They need to add something to this skill for sure starting with uping it's damage output and increasing the disarm chance followed by some gloves that are ment to be used by a character with the wrestle skill to give other special moves and damage increases.
     
  15. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Well it's good to read that I'm not the only one who thinks wrestling could use some attention.

    IMO it's base damage is way too low. Increased base damage alone would make it far more useful.

    It would be nice to see it become overall more effective and useful of a skill.
     
  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Groin Kick (Wrestler kicks opponent in the groin, stunning them for five seconds and lowering their hit chance for ten seconds)"

    Lol, looks like you read that thread awhile back about Wrestling, and you saw my post on how Female chars should have Groin Kick instead of Para Blow. Chance to resist it would be based on Focus and Intoxication (Give a reason to booze again, incredibly [censored] faced chars have a decent chance of resisting Groin Kick). However Groin Kick would only work against Male chars.

    "Just by having anatomy and evaluating intellegence, a mage is granted the defensive wrestling ability"
    Yeah, but Mages don't use Anatomy whatsoever other than that. Plus their spending the same amount of skillpoints as they would for Wrest, which Wrest is better than Eval+Anat because it allows Special Moves.
     
  17. eolsunder1

    eolsunder1 Guest

    Wrestling is a defensive mage skill, not offensive.

    It allows you to use potions, which regular weapons don't. It allows you to hold and use spellbooks. You never lose the ability unless you equipt a weapon. No one can "disarm" you of your wrestling.

    It grants you DEFENSIVE ability with the side effect of being able to perform 2 defensive special moves, disarming and paralysis blow. It doesn't require tactics to work.
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have 120 wrestling 45 DCI on my mage, and its pretty viable for pvp. No complains. I chug, I evade LOTS, I disarm, and rarely I use parablow.

    The only downside, is the 120 points don't seem worth it when you can go with the -20 SC weapon. so for 120 points, you miss out on disarm.

    However, they can have a hit damage spell and overal swing for more damage, and have the chance for decent damage when lightning goes off.


    It just depends what fits your template. I do wish I would "swing" faster with wrestling, but hey, thats just the way it is.
     
  19. Who the hell runs with Wrestling + Tactics + Anatomy? No-one.

    Wrestling is a mage defence skill. Pure and simple. It counts as 120 combat defence from melee attackers, and you can also disarm and stun with it without tactics.

    Wrestling was made further useful when they added properties to mage spell books. You could wield a book with decent mods and put together a great suit very easily that way.

    It is fine as it is. Leave it be. Many of you here obviously do not understand the skill, how it works or what it is intended for as evidenced by people talking about it requiring tactics to perform specials, or people talking as though people run wrestling, tactics and anatomy on the same template.

    Wrestling is powerful enough if you're using it properly.
     
  20. Tomas_Bryce

    Tomas_Bryce Rares Collector Extraordinaire | Rares Fest Host
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    Spiritless, I am pretty sure that the OP is referring to wrestling in PvM context.
     
  21. *looks around for Chango*

    [​IMG]
     
  22. <blockquote><hr>

    Simplest terms its liek the old saying dont bring a Knife to a Gun fight.A weapon may it be a sword or what have you would naturally do more damage than a punch.Take for instance you walk up to a not so friendly fella bout 6'5" tall weighs around 300 pounds and punch him in the jaw.Now ya better run fast and hope he dont catch ya but walk up and jab 3 foot of steal in him ya dont have to run as fast if at all.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Or give him a good side kick to the knee and watch him drop like a ton of bricks... [​IMG]
     
  23. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    Try honoring your opponent, then you will be suprised to see how well wrestling works. I know a GM wrestler that can take down Ogre Lords. Takes a while but its possible and they barely scratch her. She uses bushido as well for confidence.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  24. Guest

    Guest Guest

    It's underpowered because those tight wrestling suits are just horrible and embarassing.
     
  25. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    *Sam pulls piece of parchment from inside his robe, ...a carefully drawn picture of wrestler.*

    [​IMG]

    "Yes, those tights are horribly embarassing... *sighs*

    Hearing bootsteps on the stairs behind him, Sam quickly slips the picture between the pages of a manuscript and slams it shut...
     
  26. <blockquote><hr>

    Spiritless, I am pretty sure that the OP is referring to wrestling in PvM context.

    [/ QUOTE ]Wrestling isn't used in a PvM context, unless for the reasons I stated: for melee evasion or to hold a property-enhanced spellbook while maintaining 120 defensive combat skill.

    We have 3 other forms of melee combat if people want to cause damage with weapons. Wrestling is, always has been and always will be, a skill most suited to the situations I put forward; manly in PvP scenarios.

    This is the purpose of the skill. If you dislike this, or think it is underpowered (which it certainly is if you're looking for something to cause damage to things) then don't use it. Simple as. The skill has its place elsewhere (PvP) and is incredibly useful and powerful as it stands in that context if used correctly. If that doesn't fit in with your playstyle, use a skill more suited to you i.e fencing, swordsmanship or macing.
     
  27. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...If that doesn't fit in with your playstyle, use a skill more suited to you i.e fencing, swordsmanship or macing.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    *Yawns* Gee, lets all just be pally dexers then... woot! That would be exciting. Some folks like to explore different playstyles and I'm not sure how you're qualified to tell everyone what the "purpose of the skill" is...

    My wrestler is succesful at PvM. Obviously, not able to take out high level critters but then again not every character has to be like that, to have fun. Sometimes it's fun just to go beat up on brigands, ratties and ogre lords... Critters that some high level characters would find to be a waste of time.

    I like the reactions I get when I'm in Ilshenar beating up a rat paragon and winning. She has also received compliments on her ability to pound Ogre Lords. Lots of folks find them a real challenge... but my wrestler just snaps their bones one at a time. The victory most sweet is from the battles hardest fought!

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  28. The main purpose of the skill is clear. I'm sorry you have issues with the blindingly obvious facts about usage which are staring you in the face.

    If you're having fun with wrestling as it is now by spending time killing things, good for you. That's great. Continue doing so. The skill doesn't need adjustments then, right? You're having a ball! The anecdote was pretty much irrelevant to the discussion at hand, nor did it add anything to the table. Wrestling can be used for killing things by spending ages hitting them for 2-3 hp. So what? That doesn't make it its intended purpose; it's just oddball usage.

    While there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever, it's painfully obvious someone interested in serious melee combat would choose a weapon skill over wrestling 100% of the time. Weapons have a vastly superior damage range because the purpose of those skills is to allow people to kill things with melee combat. This really is fundamental stuff, btw.

    Wrestling is a staple skill of the "pure mage" template and has been since time immemorial and I'd wager that's where its used the vast majority of the time. That is clearly its intended usage concluded from both how the skill works and how it is used by the vast majority. I'm sorry if you can't accept this. Right now, if I paraphrase a little, you're trying to imply essentially that because you enjoy using Taste ID to kill things, it should be made more effective at that task.

    Once again, leave a perfectly working skill alone plz. We all know what happens when EA start trying to "tweak" things.
     
  29. So you are saying wrestling must be a purely defensive skill, otherwise it will be abused by mages?
     
  30. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...Once again, leave a perfectly working skill alone plz. We all know what happens when EA start trying to "tweak" things.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Actually if you read my posts I didnt suggest a change at all... in fact I explained that by honoring a target the damage is multiplied greatly. Maybe you dont know as much about the topic as you think? Maybe since you seem to only appreciate the use of wrestling to compliment a "pure mage" template... you have never actually created a "pure wrestler?"

    My comments are intended only to point out that wrestling is a fun and useful skill. And it's damage is sufficient to engage in some enjoyable PvM hunting.

    The anecdote was pretty much irrelevant to the discussion at hand, nor did it add anything to the table.

    As for my anecdote... I was replying to an equally irrelavent post... so dont concern yourself with it. [​IMG]

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  31. [Skipping past Sam since really he's adding nothing here by his own admission.]

    @Nestorius:

    I'm saying it's pointless adjusting this skill outside the scope of what it was originally intended to be used for when by the original poster's own admission, the damage scale must remain inferior to weapons.

    This means that no-one serious willing to invest those kind of points in [Combat] + Tactics + Anatomy will ever choose wrestling as it will not perform to the same degree as your standard combat skills. It wouldn't be an improvement; it'd just be a change for no reason with no benefit and, in the process, potentially having EA break a perfectly working skill already.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And certainly don't employ EA to "fix" it, even if it were broke. [​IMG]
     
  32. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    ...it'd just be a change for no reason with no benefit and, in the process, potentially having EA break a perfectly working skill already.

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And certainly don't employ EA to "fix" it, even if it were broke. [​IMG]

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Reading between the lines... you play a "pure mage" and you're afraid that if any changes are made to the wrestling skill... you're template will be broken... so you dont wanna hear folks talking about their ideas for changes.

    And... you're so busy defending you're template that you missed that I never actually advocated any changes to the skill.

    The folks that want a "max damage" template are never gonna play wrestlers. Only folks that are looking for some variety in role-play or that enjoy having a character that is more challenging to fight with are gonna take the trouble to experiment with this skill.

    Anyway, didn't mean to make you all defensive over your template. Just pointing out to the OP and other interested parties that you can play a wrestler in PvM combat and be successful at it. That's my point and that was a contribution to this thread.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  33. The purpose of wrestling is melee defense on a char holding a spellbook, how much you need that defense in pvm really depends on what situations your character is likely to be in and if your good enough at moving away.

    If the charachter doesn't need the specials from wrestling, anatomy+eval are a better option as they give you an extra 20 points.
     
  34. Fact is this. Wrestling's intended purpose was as a defensive combat ability. That's pretty much a fact as the skill stands. You've already tried to dispute this, which is ridiculous in itself. I wasn't trying to tell people how they should use the skill; merely pointing out how it is clearly intended to be used and its main purpose.

    You picked on a point of mine where I was telling people that if it "doesn't suit your playstyle, don't use it." It clearly suits your playstyle, so what's your problem? You're making a lot of noise and not really making structurally sound points. I'm saying if the majority are interested in doing melee damage, they should pursue a typical melee class as opposed to petitioning to adjust a skill dramatically which would alter its usage. That's something I personally do not want to see. I don't want EA to play with it, nor do I want the skill adjusted. I think it is fine as it is.

    If you've found a usage for the skill such as killing mobs, good for you. This doesn't change the skill's primary purpose however, and trying to dispute that with me has left you looking rather ill-informed frankly speaking. I never claimed it "couldn't" or "shouldn't" be used for what you're using it for, just that it wasn't the intended purpose which is rather indisputable due to pure nature of how the skill operates at the moment. I don't need to be "qualified" to tell you the purpose of it, because its staring you right in the face; you're just choosing to go against the grain which, again, I don't have a problem with. I have no idea why you acted so defensively when I highlighted the skill's purpose purely because you use it for other things. Again, I didn't try to tell you how you should and shouldn't be using the skill, but merely pointed out what the designers likely had in mind when adding it.

    This thread is attempting to change the wrestling skill from its current intended usage, as a defensive mechanism, to something more multi-paradigmed and rounded. I'm saying we have enough of those skills already (swords, fencing and macing) and we don't need a skill that is working as intended to change which would benefit no-one. All you've got on that front is that it "increases the RP potential" or "template diversity" which is a point whose validity and worth I leave up to those reading. I know I'd rather leave systems that are working still working personally and not changing things based mainly on aesthetics of how a character looks or attacks things. I personally find these points hugely irrelevant.
     
  35. I often wondered why gloves didn't come with damage modifiers to enhance wrestling. I would love to see different styles of iron knuckles available to slip over gloves or in replacement of gloves.
     
  36. Sam the Scribe

    Sam the Scribe Visitor

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    <blockquote><hr>

    I often wondered why gloves didn't come with damage modifiers to enhance wrestling....

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Well, except for Gloves of the Pugilist. Since there are several different types of gloves with special attributes, it would be neat if there were a couple that gave you some special moves that only folks with Wrestling skill could employ. But only if they were empty-handed... we wouldn't want those sneaky mages to get any more of an advantage than they already have!

    I like the move the Paragon Golems use on ya where they knock ya down with a stunning blow. Perhaps gloves that gave that, or a dismount would be cool. I would figure that an accomplished wrestler with enough strength could grab a man off of a horse or knock him senseless.

    Safe Travels, Sam
     
  37. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I don't think the fundamentals of the wrestling skill should be changed. As you said, it's working as intended. It's not broke.

    I just feels to me like the base damage for wrestling is way too low. For the record I am most definitely speaking of PvM. I would like to see a Legendary or GM wrestler do a little bit more damage to Ogre, Ettins, Trolls, Harpies, and basically overland, and low level spawn. Instead of a 2-11 point base damage spread that when resists are factored in results in 1-5 or maybe 7 points damage, how about more like 9-21 or so points base damage. Something that results in a good blow and damage done.

    I'm not trying to change the game really. I just thought I'd try something out on Test Center and was genuinely surprised at the extremely low damage output of a Legendary wrestler even with the additional damage modifiers like tactics and anatomy.