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Why not rework 2D instead of the SA client?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Larry, Feb 25, 2009.

  1. Larry

    Larry Guest

    Nobody will use SA, sad but true. Why not improve 2D? Simply add some new UI elements to make it more user friendly...

    - Hotbars: The best thing about KR, no more clicking little spell icons that always move and are accidently right clicked and closed all the time.

    - Health Bar Revamp: Make grabbing health bars way easier, improve the graphics, improve it overall.

    - Speed: It needs to be super fast, this is the reason KR fails epically in PvP

    - Same artwork: Yes, you heard me. Leave the paperdoll graphics and world graphics. People like them and are used to them. The KR ones are blinding make it very hard to see whats what.

    - Revamp the options and macro menu: Make it more intuitive, easier to use

    - Implement the old 3D bags: Those were the best. The grid system is annoying, but the 2D bags lack organization space. Resizable 2D bags is the best.
     
  2. If they can make a new client that is 3D that looks like the 2D art...I would use it.

    My biggest complaint with the old 3D, and KR, is that it didn't look like UO. The creatures, the items, the paperdolls...none of it. Some of the world looked "right" but most of it no.
     
  3. Fink

    Fink Guest

    If it were simple, it would have been done already. It's not as if the devs sit about staring into space while a big red button marked "FIX UO" goes unpressed.

    As for pvp in KR, I know some people who swear by it (not at it:eek:).

    Basically you could run SA in legacy mode (old art, old interface) and think of it as 2D revamped as you'd like it. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
     
  4. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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  5. Uvtha

    Uvtha Grand Poobah
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    Becasue its not that simple.
     
  6. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I believe they are actually doing both, creating an SA client while updating the legacy 2D client.

    The legacy client simply cannot support 3D graphics. It needs to be completely rewritten.
     
  7. Ravahan

    Ravahan Guest

    A lot of the problems we have, as far as my understanding goes from posts I've read and am recalling, is based on trying to implement new content into code over a decade old written by people who no longer work there.

    On top of which, despite how great this game is, I can never ever get anyone I've known to play it because of how awful the graphics are. They won't touch it. UO needs new blood to live, and 2d ain't the way. Hell, I've known folk IRL through work who quit UO mostly because it was being left in the graphical dust. Multiple. In fact, that's been every single person I've ever known IRL who played UO at some point.

    2d is holding UO back. I say this as a guy who's PC can't run KR.
     
  8. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Iam a proud KR fan!! KR isnt perfect but if KR get with SA only 50% more love, it is the best client UO ever had. It runs not on an old PC but with a todays discount PC you can have many years of fun.

    The free interface is one of the main facts, you can change how you want it, because we all know that tastes are different.
     
  9. Nok

    Nok Lore Master
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    Exactly, well said. More than most players know or are willing to acknowledge.
     

  10. UO 2 should have incredible graphics!

    Oh...wait...they scrapped it. Twice.

    If you want graphics, throw a Pixar movie into your Blu-Ray player. UO is what it is...and unless EA wants to lose a good portion of their payerbase...they will leave 2D alone.
     
  11. Fink

    Fink Guest

    SA can be the way of the future, but 2D should be there as long as there are 2D'ers. I'm a newer fan of KR and an SA hopeful, but I do hope they continue to support and update the 2D client.
     
  12. I love your siggy btw!! :love:
     
  13. System Error

    System Error Guest

    No one plays UO because of the graphics, and never will. They can do a half ass 3d update as many times as they want, it's not going to bring in new customers. 2d can't be "holding UO back" if the 3d counterpart is only marginally better if that. I don't know why there have always been this segregated group of people who try to make this argument. UO is losing customers and will continue to do so until it's demise. No amount of "3d" updates is going to change this year by year trend. An entirely new UO game would have to be released with this generation graphics to gather any interest in this old franchise. Although I no longer play this game, I have always thought they should just focus on making the best 2d game possible because that has always been where it's at.
     
  14. Bomb Bloke

    Bomb Bloke Lore Keeper
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    You know how when you go to turn your character, there's this tiny little delay? Like, if you spin your mouse around the screen while holding the right mouse button, it's possible to have your character spin in circles without actually moving?

    That delay does not exist in KR. Because of this, you can actually run slightly faster across areas where lots of turning is involved (think forests)... Assuming your PC can keep up with the added workload caused by all those high-res graphics and pixel shader effects.
     
  15. First of all, you might be surprised by the number of people using the KR client now. With the BBE mod, it is extremely useful and improved! I admit, it took a while to get used to the changes, but now I do not want to go back to 2D.

    Hotbars.. check! KR already has it. OOOOO... wait until you download the BBE mod and get timers on your hot bars that show how much time is left on a buff or spell effect. Are you poisoned? How much time before it wears off shows below your health bar. Gift of Life about to expire? You will know when to renew the spell. Hot bars keep everything organized in KR and are so much more informative with the BBE mod.

    Health bar revamp.... check! the BBE mod for KR works well and includes nice little numbers on top of the bars. Want it to look different? Make a friendly request of the modders and see if they will change it for you or make the change yourself.

    Speed... There are several things you can do for your computer and KR to make it run faster. Some of those, like the frames refresh rate, have been added to the newest KR mod. Now KR runs faster on my computer than 2D ever did! I admit, we should not have to make all these tweaks, but it is worth it.

    Umm... you lost me on the graphics part about how KR is blinding. That statement makes no sense and I have no problem distinguishing what's what in KR. Many things look different than in the 2D client, and some don't like change... is that what you mean? It did take a while to get used to, didn't like the change at all at first, but I like it now. I DON'T want the old 2D artwork back!!!

    Macros... okay. They are NOT intuitive in KR, but not any worse than 2D. Macros in 2D are NOT intuitive either. What does "IncreaseUpdateRange" or "MaxUpdateRange" mean anyway? Those are 2D macro commands that I scratch my head at. And the secondary commands in 2D are sometimes hard to select, have to grab them off to the right edge. I would like to see some improvement in the KR macros, but they have some really nifty commands right now. Mining or chopping trees for boards - no comparison that KR wins hands down!

    AHH.... inventory bags! That is one of my favorite things in KR, looting corpses in KR. With the Modders UI showing property intensities by color, I can quickly mouse over objects and see whether it is worth a second glance just by the color of the property. High intensity has a dark blue or gold color for max intensity - I only look at the numbers if they jump out at me via color. Looting in the grid systems is awesome. No need to move anything, and you just right click to pick it up. I do NOT like KR for stocking vendors, only because other people use 2D and I can't get things to look the same on a vendor between the two clients. Resizable bags would be very nice, but not the jumbled mess that 2D bags are.

    My question for you is, when was the lat time you tried KR? Are you one of those who've tried it in Beta and said never again and still complain about it? Have you tried it lately and tried the BBE mod? have your tried some of the performance tweaks that are posted in the KR forums here on Stratics? If you have tried it lately, and it doesn't work for you then your gripes are legitimate. If you haven't give it a try, and ask about anything that isn't working for you. Most people who say, "KR sux" haven't tried it since the beta version. Try the BBE mod and you might be very very surprised.

    After playing KR exclusively since October, I wish they would just concentrate on the KR client, aka the NEW SA client, and not continue to maintain and old and outdated 2D client. KR is not perfect, and I don't claim that. But the modders have made tremendous improvements with the BBE mod. I hated KR when I first tried it, and thought the graphics were awful too. But now, the KR client is so much faster and more useful that 2D ever was, I do not want to go back.

    And you know, I kinda like the graphics now.
     
  16. lucksi

    lucksi Guest

    They either lost the instructions manual for it or nobody can program and/or understand the original code anymore.

    Judging from what they did with KR, they have no idea how to program stuff anymore. Add the misspellings in the client to it then you can figure out that "there" coder is one of the "must have moar 3d" idiots.

    Even funnier when you consider what Draconi said after his visit to the japanese crew.

    UO will never have the gfx to pull in the young kids. Scrap the bloody client and use 2D. Focus on us old farts, we have always been here.
     
  17. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    I'm in the process of digging in now to learn how to really use the KR client. And yes, I'm one of the "old farts" with a few gray hairs and grandkids.

    I screamed and hollered when the 3D client went away because it was the one I used when I first started playing UO (didn't know any better...no one around to hold my hand). Switched over to the 2D client pretty quickly. Was thoroughly disappointed with the original KR female paperdoll. But now I'm looking forward to challenging myself to climb out of the rut I'm in with the game and see if using the KR client keeps me playing for at least a couple more months.

    If nothing else, I plan to have a lot of my characters visit the body sculptor and take advantage of his services. It's way past time for a new look in the old tired clothes, new undergarments and....body art!! I also need to do some major cleaning and pitching of junk, so I hope to take advantage of the mod that shows property intensities by color.
     
  18. Hildebrand

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    Custom paperdolls... I like the pirate look myself. Goes with my captain john's hat. With SA, i'm sure there will be even MORE "looks" that your paperdoll can have. 2D will never have that feature.

    2D has it's own bugs and shortcomings as well. I hated when I right-clicked a spell icon and it dissappeared! No warning.

    For the people that thought KR is just ok, wait till SA comes out!! It'll blow your mind!
     
  19. Nalif

    Nalif Journeyman
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    I just started UO three months back, and I'm a huge fan of KR. I've tried both clients, though. 2D is just so difficult to play in my opinion. I keep seeing how everyone says KR feels "clunky", but to me it's exactly the opposite. I get in 2D, and I move around jerky. If I want my spells out, I have to drag them one by one and try to line them up. I can't loot anything quickly, because everything inside a corpse is piled on top of each other. When I play 2D, it feels like there's a barrier standing between me and the game. I can see the game, and I can interact with it to an extent, but boy is it slow going. The only thing I hate about KR is the crashes. I crash a LOT. And the fact that there are a few random bugs that really seem like they would be easy to fix, but they're not fixed. Like the paperdoll/backpack keybindings not working. What's up with that? But once I play KR, it's like a breath of fresh air.

    Other than those problems, though, KR is where the future is. I see everybody complaining about the graphics this, and the paperdolls that, but what I think is this; What other MMO out there even gives it's players a choice as to which client they use? Not only is the ( small from what I understand ) dev team supporting two clients, but they've even done things like add in legacy graphics support to Kingdom Reborn. That's huge, in my opinion. What other MMO lets you choose your graphics? UO might be old, but that doesn't change the fact that what they're doing here is pretty intense.

    There are a few issues I have with KR. From what I understand, however, Mythic has a lot of experience with the gamebryo engine ( Warhammer ), and if that's the case, I expect SA will be amazing.
     
  20. Lord Patapon

    Lord Patapon Guest

    Changing client might give a punch or two to the cheating community; plus, I believe it's a bit simplier to build something "new" (sort of) than heavily modifying an already old client (and 2D must have a REAL complex coding right now, after all these years)

    Oh. And newbies want a new client, and even if Im a 2d user all the time, I can't say that I don't understand them.
     
  21. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
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    I've always said that if they take Sarapheena's (Sorry.. SP? Regulars know who I'm talking about) 2D artwork cleanup, and applied it to everything, then gave the client the interface of KR, and for god sake, allowed for macros to have UOA's "Use Item Type", I'd be an instant success.

    Maybe they will for the SA client. /shrug
     
  22. Bara

    Bara Guest

    This ^

    One of the best, and most logical posts I've seen on the subject.
     
  23. I agree... One look at UO's graphics and most people laugh.
     
  24. Madrid

    Madrid Slightly Crazed
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    Good one.

    I'll most definately be playing SA client and I can't wait to see and experience any upgrades and improvements.

    I never log onto 2D and if 2D was my only option I'd probably start looking at other games. I love the graphics in KR. Cu Sidhes look awesome.

    KR client gives UO a totally new feel than what I experienced when it first came out in 1997. I'd burn out in a hearbeat playing the 2d client but with KR I've been very active in UO the last two years.

    So I for one definately play UOKR for the graphics. The 2d Client, which should always be there for those who want to use it, belongs in a museum.

    That is essentially the same client used for Ultima VII The Black Gate/Forge of Virtue.

    Time to move forward people...
     
  25. deadite

    deadite Sage
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    Only if they grew up with Xboxes and Playstations. Those of use who grew up with Ataris, Nintendos and peaked our gaming on PCs in the 90s find absolutely nothing wrong with UO's graphics.

    The original graphics anyway. Some of the art from the expansions have been horrible. But the core graphics of UO are nearly perfect imo.

    That said, I'm really looking forward to trying out the SA client. I was stoked about KR, but it ended up disappointing more than anything. I just wish they hadn't had to screw up all the 2D tile patterns to implement it.
     
  26. Hildebrand

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    One look at www.uo.com and I cry.

    It's so lacking it's not funny.


    Go ahead.... pretend you're a new player and you want to play. No wonder we don't have players.

    UO needs to Keep It Simple Stupid!
     
  27. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    ehh keep wishing what happens happens i hope they give it some more love but then i will not hold my breath in this economic downturn that ultima online will be a big priority.
     
  28. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    2D is absolutely horrible to look at. I only play it because I have for years <_<
     
  29. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Nobody will use SA

    I stopped right here because of the complete ignorance of the statement.
     
  30. Thrakkar

    Thrakkar Slightly Crazed
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    I read a lots of "2D Client", "KR Client" and "SA Client" in this thread. So does this mean, that with SA a new, third client is coming?
    Or is the SA client replacing the KR client?

    BTW, is there any ETA for SA?
     
  31. No ETA yet, still waiting for the beat info.

    My understanding is that the new SA client is a re-worked KR client, and the 2D client is getting worked over. So there will be "new" parts to both clients.
     
  32. MatrixCubed

    MatrixCubed Guest

    I often wonder, although I rarely visit or post here, why so many ex-players spend so much time posting and arguing so passionately on this forum...put up your 10 bucks a month and keep the game alive for those of us who still enjoy the game and want it to last another 10 years...I don't care if you play...
     
  33. AdamD

    AdamD Guest

    After seeing what "high resolution" 2D art work would look like (Courtesy of Saphireena), I think a high res 2D client would be awesome, but I also understand drawing each model/item in 2D is a painstaking and costly process.

    While I think UO is worth such a cost, I understand them not doing it.
     
  34. Gellor

    Gellor Guest

    I'd say the largest reason they can't "just rework" the 2d client is the 2d client is ancient using outdated coding techniques and integrated graphics routines. It would not be a simple task to replace just the graphics portion.

    Way back in the day, I got to attempt that at a company that was "upgrading" their program from Windows 3.1 to Windows 98. We wasted close to a year trying to "just rework" the old program and ended up with lots of issues. In the end, we spent another year creating a new program from the ground up... it was so much easier to do it ground up.

    A very good analogy would be taking a 1930 Ford and trying to make it completely modern drivetrain. Sometimes it is just better to take the body and put it on a modern platform:eek: Or simply buy a new car.

    The biggest issue EA has is there are too many of us who like the look and simplistic feel of the 2d client. We don't care about jester hats that spin in the wind while we run:hahaha: From a game standpoint, fancy graphics and visual gimmicks don't help the game play nor maintain subscriptions... the fancy graphics and visual gimmicks might gain a few subscriptions but won't sustain them... but will definitely lose a lot of subscriptions.