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Why PvM & PvP damage caps should be the same

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Mervyn, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    I'm not going to immediately come out and say something crazy like what the actual caps should be and how it will work, i'll leave that to the mathematicians however...

    PvP and PvM damage caps should be the same because then PvPers would suck less at PvM and more importantly, PvMers would suck less at PvP, this would then allow trammel players to easily try out PvP. So many times i kill helpless sampires or any PvMers doing spawns and there's no challenge.

    This would also simplify the game so people would only have to learn one set of caps.

    I tell you the truth
     
  2. silent

    silent Lore Master
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    So because you suck at PVM you think lowering the damage cap will help? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
     
  3. Mandrake of DF

    Mandrake of DF Lore Keeper
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    And remove the benefits of faction stuff - that they are better stat / resists than normal rares.
     
  4. aarons6

    aarons6 Certifiable
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    you guys make me laugh..
     
  5. Smurcoch

    Smurcoch Guest

    So, in other words....

    You are finally sick of the same ole gimp ninja archers you are used to fighting, and you want to kill other people....

    I get it.
     
  6. Winker

    Winker Babbling Loonie
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    You cant kill my PvM Sampire 1v1 with your pvp char. So everything is fine as it is :danceb:

    You have tryed many times but never once managed.

    I tell you the truth
     
  7. LadyNico

    LadyNico Always Present
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    Excellent! Clearly, Europa's pvp is perfectly balanced.

    If only the other shards would just balance themselves!

    :lol:
     
  8. Wizal the Fox

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    Incredibly I actually completely agree with Mervyn.

    The extreme difference in caps makes it that you need completely different templates and equipment for PvP and PvM. It makes it completely pointless to even try to fight a PvP char with a PvM char: sure, if you are more skilled than your opponent you can often survive, but you can never beat him. This is because to be efficient in PvM, you have to have tons of skills and mods which are completely useless in PvP, and vice versa: Typically leeches don't work in PvP because you can't do enough damage, and on the other hand try killing a champ with a bokuto...

    Mind you, it wasn't always like this, the difference in caps is relatively recent: as equipment and skillcaps raised, new mobs were given more defenses, more firepower, and a LOT more HPs, instead of improving their AI. So in time they gave players more firepower to kill them. BUT they didn't change the number of HPs players had, so they had to limit the damage in PvP and introduced PvP caps. I think it was a bad move.

    Sure there are a few kind of all-purpose chars, but generally they in fact suck at both PvM and PvP.

    Another consequence of PvP caps is that since you can't deal massive damage, you are stuck with having to deal a lot of small damage as fast as possible. This considerably limits the possible strategies you can use and gives speed (connectivity, speedhacks, reflexes) way too much importance.

    In the end all this has an unforeseen side effect: Only fools or very large groups try to do champs during peak hours anymore. For all practical purpose, the champs are done when there is nearly no one online. Hell I don't even gather resources in Fel during peak hours anymore.
     
  9. Raptor85

    Raptor85 Certifiable
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    Depends on the build, my bushido archer build that I used on my red is formidable as a pk/pvp character and easy to solo basicly any boss on at the same time, ABC archers are basicly the same way if set up properly and mage tamers if they're anywhere halfway decent have an enormous advantage of speed and hp due to the pet attacking with them (though tamers that still use rune beetles are a bit more effective in pvp than GD's). The inbalance happens when you specificly sacrifice things to sqeeze out that little extra bit of damage in pvm, I mean, is the difference between 280 damage and 320 damage a hit REALLY worth sacrificing all ability to defend yourself from another player?
     
  10. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    They are two totally different types of play, in order for this to work they would have to revamp all the monsters and what not just to be able to kill them. Monsters have huge HP and if you dropped caps down to PVP levels you would be doing way less damage it would take hours just to kill something simple. Heck it would just make everyone use tamers because pets aren't capped.

    Honestly I do not see a reason for this and it will not bring people into doing PVP, people do not PVP for many reasons. Mostly I think is some just do not like it, and its not OH if you try it you will learn to like it. You can not make people change their nature. It has nothing to do with the learning of it, heck most people that do not want to PVP know the caps for it and what not.
     
  11. Wizal the Fox

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    I also have an archer that does well in both PvM and PvP, but that's because he has healing and focus. Any PvM template that relies on leeches for heal and mana cannot normally win a fight in PvP, simply because the leeches are indirectly massively capped by the damage you deal.

    As for mages, adding any PvM skill like spellweaving reduces your SDI cap to 15 in PvP. It is simply totally inefficient to PvM with only 15 SDI unless all you do is spam EVs, and raising SDI implies a lot of sacrificing other mods/abilities for something that has ZERO effect in PvP.

    For Bards it is even worse, their basic abilities just don't work at all in PvP, and I doubt the Mastery spells alone are worth 240+ skillpoints.
     
  12. CovenantX

    CovenantX Babbling Loonie
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    Currently, IMO there's not really a problem with pvp templates & equipment in pvm, and vice-versa

    Really all you have to do, is build a suit with a balance between HCI/DCI (for pvm/pvp Dexer) SDI/DCI (for pvm mage). so if you get caught between pvm/pvp you would have a decent chance to survive/or dispatch =].

    Most (if not all) of my characters, have resisting spells, regardless if its a mage/dexer OR for pvm/pvp character. I normally do not have this problem, unless the character in question is... my crafter.

    It would be quite hard to build a "luck suit" to do both pvp/pvm though.
    it's all in the template/suit...

    "You can't have the best of both worlds, but you can get close to it."
     
  13. Rand Althor

    Rand Althor Journeyman
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    x2...
     
  14. pgib

    pgib Guest

    Designers forced people to non consensual pvp and players answered with consensual game leaving: i don't think that messing up with pvm because of pvp once again would be a smart move.
     
  15. lucitus

    lucitus UOEC Modder
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    Too much suck Jesus!

    I don't see any problem here, we had that situation a few years ago and the people who cried were the pvpers, me too that was right! But i want to make massive damage in pvm that makes fun! And only because you are too lazy to take a slayer with you for the special monster the damage should be lowered? or the same?

    There are different roles of gameplay in Ultima Online and thats fine, otherwise everyone can do everything and that means nobody needs anybody!
     
  16. Capn Kranky

    Capn Kranky Guest

    I started with T2A and the manual in that box stated that there was always the possibility that another player would/could attack you and perhaps kill your character. That sounds to me like PvP was designed into the game.

    So you see, no one FORCED anyone into non-con PvP. It was the choice of the person using the client to PvP or not.

    As for the exodus ... it started when some PvP enthusiast decided to make things very difficult for some. It was these actions that brought that about.
     
  17. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    No. I didn't really need the +1 but if enough people don't bother to post how ridiculous your suggestions are others might think they somehow have merit. Which, they don't.
     
  18. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    If there is no other Choice to play the game without being attacked by another player, whether the box for the game tells you this COULD happen or not, when you don't want to be attacked, like for example, Trammel...then by definition Non-Consensual PvP (Meaning one person wants to engage in PvP and one person playing does not) means there isn't a consent between both players.

    Because something occurs that is at one time allowed, and indeed, even forced upon the p(l)ayers of the game, does not necessarily make it a "Good and Obvious Choice". Otherwise, today, you would see literally hundreds of MMORPGs that had free for all PvP and allowed any PKing to occur anywhere in the game. You do the math on that one....

    The only part of your post that I agree with is the last bit. It was even said by SunSword that it was a small demographic that dominated the rest of the game in terms of the PK madness that happened.

    And please, for the love of God...do not try to tell me that PKing wasn't "That Bad" or any such nonsense. I was there. I will not debate the point, at all.

    And as to the point of the OP...unless many monsters were completely redone for hit points etc., it would seem crazy to lower damage output in PvM, especially in an area, which comprises almost the entire land mass, that another person cannot attack another player without their express consent.

    Maybe go ahead and put damage caps in Fel for PvM...try that. :)
     
  19. pgib

    pgib Guest

    PvP was originally designed as a way to allow players to enforce law where guards couldn't go. It didn't worked, they should have removed it from the game entirely.

    As per being forced to, try to discord a Slasher of Veils with gm music and disco or to tame a greater dragon with 100 taming/lore or to hit a barracoon with 100 swordsmanship, or to use Rising Colossus in a t-hunt with 100 mystic.
     
  20. Capn Kranky

    Capn Kranky Guest

    Look, I don't PvP. I flatout stink at it. However, I played UO voluntarily knowing some bloke of any color could come along and take me out (they had a field day with my characters!). It was a p(l)ayer choice!

    There were games - even MUCK, MUD, MOO - that had either character death in RP or had enforced "no PvP" rules. P(l)ayers chose to go there and all games "force" a play style of some sort on you - even console ones. UO is not uniques in that regard.

    As for the damage PvP vs PvM ... what if caps were compared and whatever playstyle was lower got a raise? Factions would not be part of this basis. Then Factions is an added bonus - draw factor for Fel? <shrug>

    Then again, I know little to zilch about PvP, so this could just be 100% BS.
     
  21. SugarSmacks

    SugarSmacks Guest

    It always amuses me when some random trammel person complains how UO wouldnt last without pvm but could easily last without pvp.

    Apparently everyone forgot the years and years of no trammel. Of course there has never been a time of no Felucca.

    You want pvp and pvm in the same character? Maybe we should make that character able to have 6 crafting skills too. Or better yet lets give him 13 pet slots too and a 2500 skill cap. LOL

    If one character could do it all that would make owning several accounts pointless.


    Now before your going to tell me "how it was", let me remind you i was there.

    People didnt just leave because they were killed, some did, most left because they couldnt find a house. Its just when they went to add lands for housing they added Trammel.
    Im sure had they known this would of invented a whole new age of crybabys the facets would have probably been all fel.
     
  22. statman

    statman Visitor
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    Can someone point me to links that have the caps for PvM and PvP? I have lost touch with how skills/spells/items impact the caps
     
  23. Capn Kranky

    Capn Kranky Guest

    not me! I wish Tram never had been put in ... and I have already stated my PvP stinks.

    However, I do recognize that damage and other things are unequal between the two playstyles. At least the basic caps should be samey-same IMO. After that, since Fel has Factions and other possible bonuses they should be added to things.

    But again, I played for several years without Trammel as well and once I got the "rules" down I could survive most times. I just came to realize my shortfall and took advantage of Tram. Call it voluntary crippling of game possibilities.
     
  24. Mervyn

    Mervyn Certifiable
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    :banana:
     
  25. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I would raise the hit points on characters. Add another few hundred hits not strength.

    Then balance the caps. This would make players more like spawns.

    Everyone looks at hit points as in damage points rather than a time period in which a player has to perform with skill and tactfulness.

    Hit points are not just a measure of how much damage one can do to another player. It gives the other player time to do more things to combat their opponet. So, by adding hit points you allow for more skilled players who can perform in combat for longer periods of time.

    People would live longer and be harder to kill.

    I would find a balance in PvP and PvM of about a 5 minute fight or more. If you time most fights now, how long do they last? 4 seconds? What measure of skill and strength can you get from 4 seconds. This is true in both PvP and PvM.

    If I can kill a spawn within 4 seconds or if I can kill a player with 2 other people in 1 second, then what is the challenge? Where is the skill and most of all what fun is it?

    My guess is we should be at 400 hits, average. Spawns should be 400-1,000 and Bosses should be over 1,000 to 10,000. The more hits, the slower they should be.

    The NPC Red should be the exact same thing as the player and they should average the same hits, PvM=PvP, that's how I would rate it. I would really work on the NPC Spawns so that they could keep up with new skills, races and even tactics real players use. I would rate myself in the balance of these 2.

    We could even talk skills, like, Bards for example and PvP. I do not agree that they can not combat and only work as support. I would give each class or skill a destructive force of death as well as a defense and mid range support.

    Slayer types would be another topic. For example: Repond Slayer, Elf Slayer, Gargoyle Slayer, even types of Slayers to combat Energy Vortex or Colossus.
     
  26. NBG

    NBG Lore Master
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    Years and years of no Trammel? seems like a lot of years .....

    More like just under 3 lol learn to count
     
  27. Cetric

    Cetric Grand Inquisitor
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    Do you even pvp? wth.. smh.
     
  28. pgib

    pgib Guest

    We could call that period of time "years and years" if we lived on Mercury. In Earth time the "years and years" were 2. And some months. As a matter of fact is barely enough to say "years" one time.
     
  29. PJay

    PJay Seasoned Veteran
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    Why would mobs need altering? because u cant solo them day in day out anymore and not interact socially on a mass multi online role play game??

    Most things added to this game are weak because of the ever increasing strength of chars.

    I like the idea of pvp and pvm caps being the same but not because pvpers can pvm better because there are allready templates powerful enough which are powerful in pvp (Mystic).
    It means more or less any template built for pvm can be used in pvp then trammies dont need major template and suit alterations to defend or attack in fel.

    Anyone who outright disagrees with why caps should be the same dosnt understand how overpowered templates can be not to meantion multiboxing.
     
  30. WildWobble

    WildWobble Sage
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    simple fix upgrade monster dmg by 50% and give players 10 hp per str.. or something like that i could go for 750 hp!
     
  31. Shelleybean

    Shelleybean Certifiable
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    The damage cap has nothing whatsoever to do with why I enjoy pvm and not pvp. Furthermore, I resent all the "pvp balance" publishes which translate to pvm nerfs.
     
  32. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Damage caps have absolutely no bearing on pvp vs. pvm.

    Anyone who thinks they do just doesnt understand the game :(

    But I guess that is to be expected from someone who admittedly spends a majority of his/her time killing sampys/pvmers.

    Just sayin...
     
  33. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Uhh, it represented approx 15% of the games existence so I would say it was a long time.

    But most importantly it was the original concept of the game which factors ALOT more heavily then any amount of years afterwards.

    If you dont get that I feel sorry for you.
     
  34. garillo

    garillo Journeyman

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    I have an idea. Let's dumb the game down even more to take it even further away from the unique, skill rewarding game it was.
     
    aricz likes this.