1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Greetings Guest!!

    In order to combat SPAM on the forums, all users are required to have a minimum of 2 posts before they can submit links in any post or thread.

    Dismiss Notice

Why Tamers Belong in PvP

Discussion in 'UO Factions' started by Llewen, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Over the years I've heard it all, "ALL KILL, NO SKILL!", "go back 2 tram", "1 v 1? that wasn't a 1 v 1, u had 2 pets!", "duel me! no pets!" It's a grand tradition in UO pvp to tell everyone that doesn't pvp exactly the same way you do that they aren't a "real" pvp'r, and no class of pvp'rs has been more subjected to this than pvp tamers.

    With that in mind, I'd like to point out why I think that a pvp tamer is not only a "real" pvp template but why they belong in pvp, and it would be a real loss to the pvp "scene" if they were ever to be removed in any way.

    Tamers belong in pvp because:

    - They are as balanced as any template out there. A tamer with a greater dragon is not an automatic kill machine. You ask any credible pvp'r on just about any template and they will tell you that they can beat your average tamer, 9 times out of 10. Even the dreaded "dread mare" templates are not a key to instant domination - they can be beaten, if you have skill, and you know what you are doing.

    - They have specific tactical uses in specific situations, as is the case with any pvp template. The various tamer templates are better at certain things, and worse at others. As is the case with any template. A tamer with a greater dragon may not be the best choice for "working" a spawn, but they can be invaluable as a tank when it comes time to tackle the champion. And you might say, "But that is pvm, not pvp." The simple truth is that champ spawns in Felucca are pvp arenas, from beginning to end, and are far more "real" in terms of pvp than most of the fun and frolic that goes on at Yew gate, because the stakes, in game terms, are "real". The pvm aspect of a champ spawn is a very big part of the pvp that goes on there. Good pvp'rs will use the spawn, including the champ, in all kinds of interesting and creative ways.

    - It takes just as much skill to play a pvp tamer effectively as it does any other pvp template. Now you could start nit picking and arguing pvp semantics and talk about how the "pure mage" takes more skill than any other template, etc. and ad nauseum, but the truth is it takes skill to play any pvp template. For some the learning curve isn't as steep as others, and for some it is a bit easier to get lucky kills at lower skill levels, but they all take practice, and skill to play well, even the "op" "fotm" templates that have been cycled through throughout the lifespan of the game take skill to play well. I can tell you from experience, and a lot of it, that my mage tamer is without a doubt the most complex, and interesting template that I play in pvp, of all of the various templates I have tried in that context.

    - They are fun. They are fun to play, and they are fun to play against. I've had this discussion with an old adversary who has become a friend, and he has told me on more than one occasion how playing against me in the old days was a bit like playing a game of chess. I have had battles that have lasted half an hour or more, that were just pure mad fun, from beginning to end, for both myself and my opponent. And personally, I love playing against tamers, win or lose. A well played tamer is a challenge to play against, and not just an irritating, annoying challenge, but a fun, "edge of your seat" adrenalin rush - the way the best pvp experiences always are.

    They are fun - the single most compelling argument why they should never be removed from pvp, and for me, the reason why I love both playing them, and playing against them.

    - But there is one more reason why they should never be removed from pvp and that is that tamers are part of what makes every part of UO, including pvp, utterly unique. There is no other MMO that has a tamer "class" of templates with as much variety and depth as UO has. After the friendships I have made playing the game, taming is the single biggest reason why I have loved UO for as long as I have. There is always something new to learn about the game, and about taming specifically, there are always new surprises, and after eight years, I still don't know all there is to know about being a tamer or a pvp tamer specifically, and I still make discoveries about taming that surprise me, or make me laugh, almost on a daily basis.
     
  2. Cloak&Dagger

    Cloak&Dagger Guest

    Before I start I would like to inform I do in fact play a tamer.

    A properly created tamer template does not require pets to fight, so the pets do in fact make the player outrageously powerful, assuming that player can PvP good on any other template that is. That being said as well, I do not agree nor do I disagree with "1v1" against a tamer, on one hand you really didn't 1v1 on the other hand if you are good they would have just run away mid-fight anyway so the pets just make it easier to secure the kill.

    I do not argue with most of what you said except for the complexity of playing a tamer, or the skill level required. I think anyone entering PvP could play a tamer effectively, sure they wont be out there killing everyone but it is a HUGE crutch. They are fun, and as I already pointed out if you are a tamer mage and know how to play a mage you do not need the pets in any 1v1 situation (save for the already mentioned "run away" scenario) But they do provide tactical advantages in 2v1 situations and group combat.

    They do provide a means of learning, You want to learn how to PvP? Play against an above average mage playing a tamer mage. People may not agree but honestly if anyone thinks "1v1" against the best mage is a good "learning experience" then they should accept that an above average player on a tamer mage is harder to fight, since well, you are fighting 2-3 casters, 2 of which have no casting speed limit.

    Do I feel they should be removed? No, but I don't feel there needs to be an argument supporting that they stay in game if one has not been presented that they should be removed.
     
  3. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    I am not going to get into a huge argument about tamers in pvp. I've presented my arguments, I don't feel I have much beyond that to add. I'll just say that I have heard many what I call "tamer haters" who want pets to be removed from pvp. As for tamers in pvp being "outrageously powerful", the only tamer templates I have seen in pvp that are popular, and quite strong, are primarily dexxer and archer templates using dread warhorses.

    The numbers speak for themselves. It's pretty easy to tell what is in need of balancing in pvp, simply by looking at the numbers. Since the pvp changes I see a lot fewer dread warhorses in pvp, so I think the balance issues there have been addressed. There have always been a few dexxers with cu sidhe, but I don't even see all that many of those anymore.

    As for other kinds of tamers, those are usually the domain of more casual pvp'rs and they tend to be cannon fodder for the better pvp'rs, and I have rarely seen any successful pvp'rs who use pets other than dread warhorses or cu sidhe, beyond certain specific tactical contexts, such as the "meat shield" to put on the champ at champ spawns.

    So I would respectfully disagree with your assertion that they are "outrageously powerful" based on a great deal of pvp experience. The numbers simply don't support what you have said. If there were balance issues with greater dragons, or pets other than perhaps dread warhorses, you would simply see a lot more of them than you do.

    "Hard core" pvp'rs aren't some kind of noble breed that eschews any advantage simply because they feel it is unfair. The exact opposite is true. All you need to do is look at the population explosion of gargoyle throwers for proof of that...
     
  4. Picus at the office

    Picus at the office Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    582

    So you started this epic fail of a post to do what? Justify your need of a crutch? Confirm that without pets you get whipped in pvp? Divert from the fact that you can only bola and hope for the best?
     
  5. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    Pets are no more of a "crutch" than a bokuto or a Scrapper's is a "crutch". They are weapons. They take experience, intelligence, and skill to know how to build and use properly. I realize I'm not going to change your mind, it's already made up and you aren't going to let yourself be confused by facts or logic. Hopefully others with experience and an open mind will understand what I've been saying, and see that it is true, and if they do disagree with what I have said, in whole, or in part, they will do something other than rant and engage in personal attacks in response to it... ;)
     
  6. Poo

    Poo The Grandest of the PooBah’s
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Benefactor 4H

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2003
    Messages:
    7,839
    Likes Received:
    2,394
    there are other reason why some players enter into pvp with a tamer.

    and it has nothing to do with 'crutches' or any of that.

    on some shards there are zerg armies (haha, some shards)

    if you are a guild of 3 guys and your going against a guild that can field 12-20 at a time you have to take advantages when you can. and a good pvp tamer can do that.

    another, and im my case, i live waaaaaaaaaay off the grid, so my connection at the best of times is crap.

    its either stealth archers or tamers for me, and thats simply for the fact that all i ever see of people is when they enter my screen, then they blip over as they exit the far side.

    but when im not playing my tamer and im on a nox fencer or a mage, i must admit that i PREFER to go against a tamer.
    why?
    cause i know i can kill them 10 out of 10 times.

    if you know how a tamers operates you can kill them every time.
    and im talking solo here.

    same as their are players that i have run into over the years that can kill me when im on my tamer 10/10 times.
    and im known as the grandfather of tamer pvp!

    it all comes down to that old saying.
    there is allways someone on another template that can kill you.
    (i think the real saying is there is allways someone bigger then you)
    but this is UO so we have to change it a bit, eh?

    case in point.
    dismount archer tamer with a pack of ozzies.
    brutally easy for them to kill someone.
    unless..... you have an area effect weapon or if your a mage, chain lightining.

    the entire flock is dead in one spell.

    i think where this whole topic gets muddied is when you have someone who has a rock hard fast connection, then runs other stuff to make them even faster and other programs to make their game play better, THEN they play a tamer.

    but at the end of the day a tamer without his pet one tile from him is just a another person on foot.
     
  7. Kylas

    Kylas Guest

    It's not hard to understand why tamers are considered weaker PvP'rs. I dug up an old faction screenshot from 2002... Not the name tag for the WW... Notice WW "S"

    It was not uncommon to be attacked with a "all kill" command and have 20+ WW chasing after you. The vast majority of tamers in PvP where always "all kill" and "all follow" players. Rush in, dump their pets and bail.

    [​IMG]

    I realize that things changed since 2002 but that is the orgin of it.

    For those of you still playing UO I did find this screenshot I thought you might get a kick out of.. Aparently I killed the new MMORPG back in 2002.

    [​IMG]

    Dig
     
  8. Llewen

    Llewen Grand Inquisitor
    Professional Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2006
    Messages:
    4,699
    Likes Received:
    200
    You are absolutely right Kylas. There was a time when tamers truly were ridiculously overpowered (although even then it wasn't quite as simple as it looked). But that was a long time ago. Tamers became the whipping boys of UO, and never lost that position, even though most, if not all, of the reasons for that contempt have long since gone by the boards. But the newer players learnt that contempt from the older players, and it took on a life of it's own, that has little basis in the present day reality.
     
  9. Guardian KX

    Guardian KX Lore Keeper

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    806
    Likes Received:
    26
    This guy was hurt bad by tamers... Thinking also the he tried to make one... And Im also guessing once he got to being able to control pets he tried to PvP with one and got rocked. Smelling a small hint that once this guys on foot he considers the fight unfair. The "Epic Fail" comment gave me most the info I needed.

    This was a well written view of a PvP tamer. And as a tamer who'll take on any other tamer I loved the whole review (opinion). If I ever group fought I targeted the other tamer (or pets) first as I saw it as keeping the fighting even. The "Fail" came from your butthurt responce.