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Why this terorist attack only makes things far worse and should be condemned...

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Feenicks, Sep 11, 2001.

  1. Feenicks

    Feenicks Seasoned Veteran
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    Aside of course for teh fact that it has resulted in the deaths of presumably thousands of innocent people... i'd like to elaborate and make certain that there can be no misinterpretation of any of my statements against aspects of US foreign policy that imply that i in any way shape or form support terorist acts such as what went on yesterday...

    This terrorist act has a completely insane and criminal character and must be condemned - but not for the hypocritical reasons given by Bush and Blair. I'd oppose individual terrorism because it is counterproductive and plays into the hands of the most reactionary sections of the ruling class. (not to mentions kills people who really have not a lot to do with anything to do with why they may want to commit terorist acts...)
    This is clearly the case here: this bloody outrage will play into the hands of US Big Business and imperialism. It will give Bush a free hand to do anything he wants in the Middle East and on a world scale. US public opinion will be softened up for any reactionary policies at home and abroad.
    It will have a similar effect on US public opinion to Pearl Harbour, which Roosevelt publicly condemned but probably secretly welcomed. The American public will now be prepared to accept the atrocities of so-called counter-insurgency and counter-terrorist actions abroad, and also reactionary and anti-democratic legislation at home.
    It is not possible to say exactly who is behind the present attacks. Hell in Oklahoma the bombing that was blamed on "Middle East terrorism" turned out to be the work of right wing American organisations.
    My guess is that it probably is Bin laden, tho i wouldnt want to jump to too much of a comclusion yet...
    It is obvious that this attack is in accord with Bin Laden's aims and methods and that he would have the necessary means of carrying them out. Bin Laden has called in Moslems everywhere to attack and kill Americans. He warned three weeks ago of an "unprecedented attack" on US interests because of Washington's support for Israel. This man and his movement of course has nothing in common with socialism or anything progressive, but representative of the most rabid reaction. However, it is not enough to shout about Bin Laden. It is necessary to explain how he arose and why.
    It must not be forgotten that Bin Laden was originally financed, armed and backed by US imperialism and was the creature of the CIA. When it suited Washington to stir up Islamic fundamentalism as a weapon against the Soviet Union, they did not scruple at supporting such epileptic reactionaries and mass murderers. As long as the people being murdered were far away - in Afghanistan or the Middle East, these hypocrites could afford to turn a blind eye. Now they suddenly discover that Bin Laden and his like are the "enemies of civilisation". But in that case, the threat to civilisation should be stamped "made in USA".

    The fact that the Security & Intelligence forces of teh US failed to see this attack coming or prevent it is certainly most interesting... and for my mind is certainly something that shows that rampant military spending etc is no answer to preventing this sort of act... i will refrain from implying that perhaps the CIA etc may even have known about this and let it happen precisely to justify themselves and general action etc... but there is of course no evidence of this...

    One thing is certain. That the consequence of the attack will be to strengthen imperialism and the right wing in the USA. Once again, we see the reactionary consequences of individual terrorism - which is to be unconditionally condemned.

    The economic effects of the attack have been immediate and dramatic. Trading on the New York stock exchange was halted indefinitely. This news was followed by steep falls on the stock exchanges in London and other world trading centres. Portions of the Internet was down, and mobile phones out of action, adding to the panic.

    The dollar's strength - given the weakness of the American economy - has defied the law of gravity. It has been so far seen as a safe haven in a period of global instability. At a certain stage, it was inevitable that this would be reversed as foreign investors withdrew their funds from America, provoking an increase in interest rates in the USA and pushing the US economy into recession. This process may have already begun.
    After nearly ten years of boom in the USA, the world economy is already hovering on the brink of a serious recession. The reality of globalisation turns out to be - a global crisis of capitalism. The underlying cause of capitalist crisis is overproduction. Once the economic cycle reaches the critical point where quantity becomes transformed into quality, any incident can push it over the brink into recession. This was the case with the oil shock of 1973-74. It is necessary to remind ourselves that the rising price of oil was linked to events in the Middle East. Now it is possible that history will be repeated.

    Overnight, the greatest super power the world has ever seen turns out to be a colossus with feet of clay. The most powerful military state the world has ever seen has shown its powerlessness in the face of terrorism. Before the Second World War, Trotsky predicted that America would emerge as the victor and establish world hegemony, but he added that it would have dynamite built into its foundations. These prophetic words have now turned out to be literally true. Ten years ago, after the fall of the Soviet Union, President Bush's father promised a New World Order. Now the reality has struck home with a vengeance.
    The **** of the planet by Big Business has created a world fraught with misery, war and chaos, which has now impacted on the heart of world imperialism. This is the real cause of the present atrocity. The terrorism of world-wide hunger, disease, misery, exploitation and oppression which torments millions of men, women and children each and every day of their lives, is the root cause of the turmoil and instability which is sweeping the planet in the dawn of the 21st century.
    Nowhere is this more obvious than in Palestine, where the people on the West Bank and Gaza are daily subjected to the bloody attacks of Israeli imperialism, their homes demolished, their young people shot down, their livelihood taken away. Is there any wonder that sections of the Palestinian youth have been driven to desperation? Is it surprising that there is a fierce hatred of US imperialism which backs Israel and remains silent about all these atrocities? Where was the condemnation of President Bush when the leader of the PFLP was recently murdered by the Israelis in a rocket attack? Where was all the talk about an "attack on civilisation" when hundreds of Palestinian civilians were being killed and maimed by the Israeli army?
    All this has had the most terrible effects on the consciousness of the Palestinian masses. Hours after the attacks there were reports of celebrations on the streets of Nablus on the West Bank. The terrible suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people by Israeli imperialism, backed by Washington, is what provokes such a reaction. But it is profoundly misguided. Scenes of Palestinian youths on television demonstrating support for the killing of hundreds of US civilians will do tremendous harm to the Palestinian cause in the USA and internationally. The sympathy which they had won among the workers of the USA and other countries because of their suffering at the hands of the Israeli oppressors will be forgotten in a wave of revulsion, which will be used by the US reactionaries to whip up anti-Palestinian and anti-Arab feeling. This in turn will pave the way for new and monstrous acts of repression against the Palestinians which will be more acceptable to world public opinion, whereas previously they were condemned.
    The Americans will have to launch a strike against some Arab country - presumably Iraq. They will need the collaboration of Israeli intelligence to carry this out. This will strengthen the hand of Israel, not weaken it. It will harm the cause of the Palestinians, not help it. Therein lays its reactionary character. One has to be blind not to see this.
    Despite its spectacular impact, even the best-organised terrorist attacks can never succeed in destroying or even seriously weakening imperialism. George Robertson, the NATO secretary, immediately took advantage of the attack to advocate the stepping up of NATO's military power. The consequences of the present attacks will be serious and reactionary. US imperialism will be under pressure to retaliate, and will not be fussy about which victims it chooses. Already, there have been attempts to blame Iraq for the atrocity. New bombings and devastation will be the answer, adding to the devilish spiral of killing and counter-killing. As far as the peoples of the Middle East are concerned, the present incident will do nothing to help them in their plight. The Palestinian people will derive no benefit from this attack. The US imperialists will be driven even further into the arms of Israel. The brutality of the latter against the Palestinians will be "justified" by the alleged threat of terrorism.
    After the terrorist attack in Africa, the US imperialists bombed Libya and Sudan, although neither of these countries had anything to do with it. They will now presumably return to bombing the helpless people of Iraq - as if one bloody crime justified another. In this way, they will aggravate all the contradictions on a world scale, creating new victims and new hatreds - the fuel for new acts of terrorism. This is what they call the "It has been said said that capitalism is horror without end. In recent years the Americans and Europeans have been arming to the teeth, with a view to intervening against the movement of the masses in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America, as in the so-called Colombia Plan. The present atrocity will mean a further acceleration in this aggressive programme of rearmament. It bodes nothing positive for the workers and peasants of the world, but is just another manifestation of the convulsive crisis of capitalism on a world scale. In the words of the Roman historian Tacitus: "And when they have created a wilderness, they call it Peace".


    [​IMG]
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  2. Exactly why Feenicks, America must make an example out of Afghanistan. It should be utterly destroyed. You don't like it tough. An example needs to be made so harsh that it wakes the world up and lets them know that the United States will tolerate no attacks like this.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. ArcticWolf

    ArcticWolf Guest

    What gives the USA a right to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Power? Money? Or just the feeling of supremacy?

    I agree that terrorists should be put away for life or be killed, but...destroying an entire country? After that, there would just be more and more trouble..

    Please read <a target="_blank" href=http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/game/11908.html> My UO tutorial for newbies </a> if you have any problems with UO...It is the one Below

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  4. "What gives the USA a right to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people? Power? Money? Or just the feeling of supremacy? "

    Simple they are harboring a known and admitted terrorist that makes their Goverment Sponsors of terrorism. After we remove KAbul from the face of the map maybe their people will get smart and rise up against them and hand over Bin Laden

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  5. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    I think, by your logic, if we simply remove America from the face of the map there'll be no need for terrorism in the world. But it's a stupid idea and I'd be stupid to say it and you're showing your stupidity by saying such a thing

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  6. "I think, by your logic, if we simply remove America from the face of the map there'll be no need for terrorism in the world. But it's a stupid idea and I'd be stupid to say it and you're showing your stupidity by saying such a thing"

    You and your brainwashed Islamic leaning can blame the US all you want reality is that Islamic Fundies want every non-Muslim dead

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  7. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    Believe it or not, my friends consider me a fundamentalist and I am proud of it - I have never killed anyone nor do I want to.

    However you do nto accept simple historical facts which even propaganda-ridden American books will show. Sad, sad, ill-read lost boy that you are.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. " However you do nto accept simple historical facts which even propaganda-ridden American books will show. Sad, sad, ill-read lost boy that you are."

    Let's look at current facts

    1&gt;Islam Fundies threw acid ACID in the faces of teenage girls going to school for not dressing like they want. Last I check the US never did that.
    2&gt;Palestinians were dancing in the streets celebrating this act of war. Americans have never danced in the streets at a bombing of another country.
    3&gt;Bin Laden &lt;may he be ****d by a male boar&gt; applauded this act.

    If this is what Islam feels are good examples then they should not cry when they get the Holy War these Fundies &lt;that give good Muslims a bad name&gt;. Around the world they have been giving Islam a bad name from the current acts in the US to the far east in the Phillipines. Sooner or later ppl will get so worked up they may decide to erradicate Islam as a whole. It is time for those good hard working Muslim to cast out the Fundies before the wrath of the world hits them

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  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    lol taishapuken obviously your one of these crazed lunatics that think your religion is the only way and your beliefs are the only way but yet you speak as if everyone else is ingnorant when in fact your the one that is speaking from tained propaganda given to you by these maniac terrorist leaders. Never once have americans danced in the street for the deaths of thousands of innocent people and never once has the president had a televised press conference urging all americans to kill any type of people. what baffles me is that these fools love it and fall for all the bs these fake wanna be leaders feed em. A true leader wants to improve his people bring them up in stead all they want to do is bring everyone else down. Now if Afganistan is goin to harbor and protect these criminals then they need to be treated like criminals them selves and face the consequences of theyre actions. Believe me they will pay for theyre crimes and then It will be our time to celebrate.

    <center>[​IMG]</center> <center>I tried to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass!</center> <center>Killer 100%
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  10. Glaston

    Glaston Guest

    Are your Grandchildren getting ready for war?
    That is a likely scenario if actions that you advocate come to pass.
    The US could face not a decade of further terror attacks but many generations of violence. Think the Hundred year War
    You kill them, they kill you and on and on and on.
    Civilised people try to find a way out of the cycle of violence, you take it on the chin and move on in a civilised way other wise you are no better or worse than those that you hate.

    I dont like the PM of Britain but he is trying very hard to avert any quick reaction by the US in calling this an "attack on the civilised world" and trying to draw in all Democratic countries to help respond to the situation. A multi nation response is likely to be a more considered and focused response to these terror attacks.


    Glaston
     
  11. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    1) if you want to talk about specific people - and in replying to the derogatory term Islamic Fundies I shall not use many applicable phrases such as "stupid yanks" "Idiot redneck pickup-truck drivers" "Dumbarse Americans" but I shall simply call them Americans.

    Have you ever heard of Charlie Manson?
    Ever heard of the Black Panthers?
    America - Mafia wars.

    You think they didn't commit atrocious actions?

    2) where'd you see this? Even if it was the case - it's not the whole population, I'm sure some Americans were probably dancing as well.

    3)Woah did he? Do i care about Bin Laden? No. Do I want him to live? Well I can understand him being killed - but he gets more credit than he's due.

    "Eradicate islam as a whole" - you have some convoluted theories about the future. Fortunately America isn't full of the results of miseducation such as yourself.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. "1) if you want to talk about specific people - and in replying to the derogatory term Islamic Fundies I shall not use many applicable phrases such as "stupid yanks" "Idiot redneck pickup-truck drivers" "Dumbarse Americans" but I shall simply call them Americans. "

    Damn straight I call the SOBs that throw acid in the faces of little girls fundies. I also call KKK members dumb rednecks. I save slurs for morons who deserve them as for the killers you named our Goverment arrested them. Last I checked there was no search for the animals that attacked those little girls.

    "2) where'd you see this? Even if it was the case - it's not the whole population, I'm sure some Americans were probably dancing as well. "

    So with no proof you make an accusation real cute there.

    "3)Woah did he? Do i care about Bin Laden? No. Do I want him to live? Well I can understand him being killed - but he gets more credit than he's due. "

    Then why don't they cough him up and save themselves the trouble.

    ""Eradicate islam as a whole" - you have some convoluted theories about the future. Fortunately America isn't full of the results of miseducation such as yourself."

    I think you missed the point, I am not advocating the Eradication of Islam but I am sure it could happen if Islam as a collective religon does not get rid of the mrons that are giving it a bad name. Last I checked the Judeo/Christian countries have better and alot more weapons than the Arab Nations can bring to bear.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    One nuke is all it takes to eradicate a city. The US has enough to eradicate all of them something like six times over - if there was a nuclear war - I think that the Arab nations could muster a few that'd make being an American hell for a few hundred years.

    Besides, not all muslims are arabs.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. " if there was a nuclear war - I think that the Arab nations could muster a few that'd make being an American hell for a few hundred years. "

    Really and just how would they deliver this magical nuke if a war is declared?

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  15. Veth

    Veth Guest

    Lemme ask you this, for all the 'bad' the US has done, how much good has it done? Hmmm, how many times have arab nations sent their sons and daughters off to defend other people? When was the last time an Arab Nation came to anyones aid? Hmmm, Kuwait could have easily been protected by its neighbors but they sat by idoly while Sadam marched in.

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  16. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    For the last time - America's aim was not to defend Kuwait.

    OK - granted, I'll say the US has done some good, nay, great things - doesn't mean you brush the bad things under the carpet!

    You will find some arab nations regularly helping UN Peacekeeping forces. Like the US.


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  17. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    The same way the Yanks would.

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  18. Veth

    Veth Guest

    Lets put this in perspective:

    1) I see the nations that would hide a criminal as evil. They contribute nothing to the world.
    2) You see the United States as evil, yet they are the single largest contributing nation to the world.

    hmmm, not a tough call by my book. I just call'm like I see'm.


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  19. "The same way the Yanks would."

    Last I checked Islamic Countries do not have access to ICBMs or missile boats.

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  20. Feenicks

    Feenicks Seasoned Veteran
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  21. Feenicks

    Feenicks Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>

    Simple they are harboring a known and admitted terrorist that makes their Goverment Sponsors of terrorism. After we remove KAbul from the face of the map maybe their people will get smart and rise up against them and hand over Bin Laden

    <hr></blockquote>

    How they gunna rise up if they all dead... and i dunno if you noticed but those explosions in Kabul was internal conflict... It's an ongoing civil war which the Taliban are currently the most powerful faction.


    I wonder if the US will bomb itself... after all it has claimed it should take action against nations that have ever supported terrorists...

    Who is Bin laden...
    People might like to check out this msnbc.com article:
    Virtuous Knights of the Realms] - [<a target="_blank" href=http://uo.stratics.com/bsc/>Britannian Society of Chefs</a>]
     
  22. I stand in awe at your passion and well-reasoned and researched posts.

    While I do not always exactly agree with your stance, I certainly appreciate the care with which you present it.

    ~Dor

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  23. Feenicks I have never advocated Nukes. Nukes are plain stupid. We have enough air power to lay Kabul to waste and we should. I do find it amusing that Bin Laden hates us sooo much yet we helped him overcome Soviet Aggression. I also love that the fools that follow him never notice that he never offers his life to Allah that he cares about so much. Also on a sadder note, in America the anti-Islam movement has started. Muslims have been attacked in Texas and NYC.

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  24. Tais, understand this. As things stand now, we may lose almost as many americans in that attack as we did in ALL of vietnam, an 8 year war. I am not for killing innocent afghans, but the Taliban should not survive this, and niether should osama bin laden, or any other terrorist. Those terrorist camps should be sheets of glass. No people, no tents, just glass. You cant understand the rage I feel towards Osama and afghanistan.

    WHAT ABOUT OSAMA BIN LADEN IS CIVILIZED???? THE MAN JUST KILLED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN! Oh, Im sure hed be happy to negotiate... The only way out of this cycle is to strike hard, and put the fear of god into these people's hearts, however small they may be. We must show these peole that this hurts their cause. Do they want an embargo like Iraq? Do they want Kabul turned into a crater? If they continue, that WILL happen. If the US doesnt respond EXTREMELY harshly, the US will continue to be looked at as the big, fat, lion with no teeth.

    And as to americans dancing in the street, well, maybe one or two. If i saw one of those people, I would quite literally break their legs.

    What hasz the US done that is so evil? we have made mistakes, but we have NEVER perpetrated an act of evil such as this.

    Those people stopped being innocent when Osama became the most popular baby's name in Afghanistan, and Osama began to be sheltered by the afghan government.

    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/sgrin.gif Evil will always prevail...Because Good is Stupid! /php-bin/shared/images/icons/dunce.gif MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA /php-bin/shared/images/icons/sgrin.gif
     
  25. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    Why do people assume that I love Bin Laden. - I have said repeatedly, if this is his work, he needs to be brought to account.

    But the US - 1,000,000 Iraqis killed - no retribution.

    Also the fact that they have strong ties with a terrorist nation founded upon a racist ideal - Israel with a wanted terrorist as its president should be raised. Israel harbours a terrorist. What's the US going to do.

    Frankly I think it was the Masud who did this.

    [​IMG]
     
  26. Veth

    Veth Guest

    that's an interesting mantra you got going there tais.

    I guess by saying "the us killed 1 million iraqis" over and over again (after hearing it over and over) you begin to beleive it and hope that others do?

    Interesting that you blame the UN placed embargo on the US (who's charged with enforcing it)

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  27. thunderbirde

    thunderbirde Guest

    terrorist nation and a racist ideal.... LOL. you should talk. ever since the creation of the Nation of Israel, it has been invaded and attacked without provocation multiple times and has survived each time. they have been the victim of countless terrorist attacks from Hamas and basically any other terrorist group that isn't on friendly terms with Israel. they are surrounded by countries almost all of whom are pledged to the destruction of israel.

    and if israel is so racist as you claim it to be, please do explain why middle easters citizens share the same political and practical rights as Jewish citizens do within the borders of israel. please explain to the entire forum this. do you know why? because you can't!!

    <blockquote><hr>

    Frankly I think it was the Masud who did this

    <hr></blockquote>

    i'm going to say this one time only: quit drinking sewer water. you obviously don't read the news. you are a troll in the absolute worst sense of the idea. by all means, keep trolling. you and people like you are making the whole of the Middle East Muslim Community look pretty f***ing stupid right now. and if anyone has any hint of racism about anything, maybe you should take a long look in the mirror. i feel bad for you, i really do. you have been fed propaganda about the U.S. and Israel since(probably) birth and you will never quit regurgitating it.
     
  28. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    *sighs*

    <blockquote><hr>


    please explain to the entire forum this. do you know why? because you can't!!


    <hr></blockquote>

    Not because I can't but simply because it's not true.

    Have you ever been to Palestine? The average Palestinian wage is about 8% of the average Israeli wage. Palestinians leaving the west bank have to show two forms of identification to leave and one of those must be a passport. They can be stopped by the Israelis anytime the Israelis please and searched int he most demeaning manner possible. My cousin who was in palestine visiting my sick aunty a few months ago was stopped, had to wait three hours for interrogation, was interrogated for three hours in a cold, dark room, subject to humiliation and then released with no charges. Palestinians must drive with coloured number plates to show that they are not Jewish. They live in mostly slummy areas, there's probably not a rich Palestinian in Palestine except for Bloody Yassir Bootlicker. On top of that Israel is very expensive - due to high inflation - Israeli wages match that inflation, Palestinian ones do not. Therefore Palestinians live in abject poverty. Israelis can settle in Palestine whereever they like, even if a Palestinian is living there first, Palestinians cannot do the same.

    No we do not get the same political and practical rights.

    I have lived in the Uk, most of my life, I have been subject to a lot of anti-arab propaganda, most of my life. I regularly read The Independant, The Evening Standard, Sharq Al-Aqwsat, USA Today and many different publications so I do actually have a pretty good idea of what is going on lad. I am nto merely regurgitating propaganda, what I am regurgitating is what I have learned through personal research and experience, why don't you try some?


    [​IMG]
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think that every person on this planet has been fed propaganda since birth...not just muslims, english, irish, german, iraeli, australian...etc...but us americans as well. Our history books reflect our point of view, not an objective view. We need to discuss these issues for this very reason. Thats why I post my ideas, even though they arent popular and wont win me friends (actually I am finding that I make quite a few people angry....good, its better than complacency) I am getting verbally attacked because of my beliefs...not in this thread, but others. If you think about it, those who are attacking us for what we think are just lesser versions of those animals who were flying the planes. If you have different facts than what have been presented, then share them with us and show us where we are wrong. If you just want to take out your frustrations, then rant and rave, just dont target others.

    I am reserving this space for offering condolences to those who lost loved ones around the country.

    May this tragedy get handled swiftly and justly.
     
  30. Feenicks

    Feenicks Seasoned Veteran
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    <blockquote><hr>

    and if israel is so racist as you claim it to be, please do explain why middle easters citizens share the same political and practical rights as Jewish citizens do within the borders of israel.

    <hr></blockquote>

    An interesting turn of words there that conveniently leaves out the occupied territories, ie west bank and gaza strip. It is Israels continued occupation of those territories that is the root cause of conflict in teh region and the extention or rights, freedom and democracy in Israel does not reach these areas.
    It is in these areas that life is intolerable and despite the Israeli twisting of words and various platitudes and lip service to high ideals the truth of the matter cannot be denied.
    Similarly the basic human right of the Right of Return for refugees is not recognised by Israel and hence these political and practical rights are not extended towards those people who were displaced and booted out by Isreal and instead languish in refugee communities at the borders with nowhere else to go.


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  31. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Who gets the temporary credit for bringing up the oldest thread? /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif Btw, it's not I who brought it up... *hides*
     
  32. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    Lol a blast from the past!
     
  33. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Things we're so slow, I figured no one would notice!

    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif
     
  34. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well looking at what happened a year of more ago is a good way to learn. I just hope Stratics doesn't introduce some sort of fee for being given a privilege to look at and to participate in the treads older than *errm* 1 month. /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
    Like some of those news sites that want everybody to forget the wisdoms the politicians came up with one year ago...

    @Tais
    Did Stratics make you to change the sig in view of 09/11? /php-bin/shared/images/icons/smile.gif
     
  35. KORN^27^

    KORN^27^ Guest

    This post isnt specifically directed at you.Its more of just my view of some of the things being discussed in this thread.

    It seems that many of the posters here simly dont understand the harsh realities of the world we live in.There always have and always will be violence in the world.The conflict between christian and muslim is over a thousand years old.And the the conflict between jew and arab is even older.My problem with the defence of radical muslim violence in response to "American imperialism" is the fact that it always seems that the radical terrorists are always the agressors meaning the first to make the conflict violent.I think we all know tjat the US.as a nation does many things around the world that are unethical.We like all other nations have only our best intrests at heart when we deal with other nations.If that means we have to support people like Osama Bin laden to fight what we consider a greater threat then so be it.Remember Osama didnt like the US.but he still jumped into bed with us when it served his purpose. This is an old military truth.The enemy of my friend,he is my enemy.But the enemy of my enemy he is my friend.This is the way of the world.People are corrupt,greedy and self serving.But there is no way to justify acts of terrorism or acts of war.No matter how unfairly a nation has been dealt with you simply cant justify killing people.

    So of course,like any other nation,the US.is goin to roam the world seeking its own intrests.And dealing with other nations to serve its own purpose and interests.All countries do the same thing.I seem to remember something a good friend told me once.My brother before my cousin,My cousin before my friend,My friend before my countryman and my countryman before ANY outsider

    As far as palestine is concerned.Well thats a little different im my view.Those people are fighting serious opression.This fact dosent condone their methods.But it does make the situation a bit more understandable.I mean come on we here in the US.had to shed some blood as well in order to gain our freedom from opression.I do believe however that in both palestien and Ireland if the people would stop commiting terrorist acts against civillians and start conducting military strikes against legitimate military targets the will be able to get more world support and have a better chance of achieving what they are fighting for.I dont think that it will ever happen though as long as the fucus of their attacks are unarmed non combatants.

    In all fairness though Palastineans need a country of their own and in reality Isreal has no right to be there.But they are there so what is the solution.I believe that two seperate nations is the only reasonable and practical solution.Also Great Britian needs to get the hell out of Ireland.
     
  36. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Well, I see Afghanistan being mentioned one year ago. The Iraq is the next in the line for "conversion" to democracy. I do realize not a year has passed since Taliban was ousted, but quite some time has passed. Time to look at some results?<blockquote><hr>

    KABUL (Reuters) - The head of U.S. Central Command said on Saturday he hoped efforts to build a new national army for Afghanistan (news - web sites) would begin to bear fruit in coming months.

    General Tommy Franks met Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kabul and then spoke to U.S.-led coalition troops at their headquarters at Bagram air base.

    Franks said the U.S. government remained committed to the hunt for Taliban and al Qaeda militants and to helping to train Afghanistan's army, which is meant to replace scattered militias commanded by regional warlords.

    "We like what we see in the training of the Afghan national army," Franks told a news conference at Bagram. "If I were going to predict, I would say we would probably see increased and improved multi-ethnic recruiting for the Afghan national army in the months ahead."

    In response to a question, Franks said none of the U.S. troops he had met had expressed concerns about the possibility of their involvement in any war with Iraq.

    "My belief is that our president has not decided that there is going to be any war in Iraq," he said. "It seems to me we would be premature if we were thinking about which troops would be involved in this place."

    Franks also addressed more than 250 coalition troops at Bagram, mainly Americans from the 82nd Airborne Division but also some Britons, Australians and Poles.

    He told them that a year ago Afghanistan was a state sponsored by terrorism, where millions of people were threatened with starvation as winter approached.

    <hr></blockquote>Well, there are still millions of people who are threatened by starvation as the winter approaches -- 4mil if we can trust UN. I think, at least the food could have been supplied, if the governments are serious about wanting to help Afghani people...

    What else has happened?

    NATO peacekeepers are entrenched in Kabul. They try to make themselves not that visible so they are tolerated for the time being.

    Warlords are entrenched everywhere else, just as it was before Taliban scooped up most of the country.

    General Franks thinks that the few thousand recruits will eventually replace warlords and their armies. Are the warlords about to give up their power?

    Hamid Karzai is trying to sell the nonexistant pipeline as well as asking where is the cash he was promised.

    Women still wear burkha.

    Country well on it's way to democracy? I think, no. Yet there is persistent talk about “democraticizing” Iraq ...
     
  37. <blockquote><hr>


    Hell in Oklahoma the bombing that was blamed on "Middle East terrorism" turned out to be the work of right wing American organisations.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Correction. It was initially *thought* to be a terrorist act orginating from Middle Eastern sources. It was *quickly* discovered to be home grown. I do not recall any wide spread or short spread evidence that emphatically linked McVey to some right wing american *organisations* &lt;--- read that as plural, and nothing more than a few individuals.


    <blockquote><hr>


    It must not be forgotten that Bin Laden was originally financed, armed and backed by US imperialism and was the creature of the CIA.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Yes that must be forgetten because it is convoluted. It is greatly exaggerated and has no emphatic evidence other than one Pakistani who states that Bin Laden received *security* training from the CIA. Which means what? He ran around a building making sure no bad guys were on that side of the building.

    Osama was created NOT by the CIA nor alleged US imperialism. Islamic Fundamentalism was NOT created by the CIA nor alleged US imperialism. HALF OF ALL funding to afghanistan came from ARAB sources. Some factions of the Mujahedeen received monies from the CIA while others received monies from Arab sources. It is possible that Bin Laden did get trickled down from CIA sources but it is just as possible and even more likely that he received funding from Arab sources since he was a financier and he campaigned in the Arab world for funding of the jihad in Afghanistan. His own family says for several years he went around the Persian Gulf area getting rich Arabs to donate to the cause. He himself went to Pakistan later and brought the family construction business with him. Many of the strongholds of the Taliban that the US/NA destroyed were quite probably built by Bin Laden. He brought relief to afghan refugees in Pakistan. His actual participation in any battles within Afghanistan is cloudy at best.

    As for the rest of your speech is this a paper you are working on for class? Or is this a cut and paste job? I thought your studies were mesoamerican history, you know Cortez and Pizarro that you screwed up.
     
  38. <blockquote><hr>


    Yet the CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan made famous by Rudyard Kipling, found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Perhaps because your cut and paste doesnt want to emphasis just how much money that these individuals brought into afghanistan. The CIA was relieved by them because they were able to match CIA funding on a one to one basis. This meant that what and who the CIA could not get money (read weapons) to, this group could. This is why it was allowed because they made the funding process easy because they came with large pocketbooks.

    <blockquote><hr>


    HINDSIGHT OR TUNNEL VISION


    <hr></blockquote>

    You do understand that the above is often missed by those you choose to cut and paste from. They can sit back conveniently and use hindsight to link past events together as if the future could so easily be seen.

    Here is something NOT understood. That IF the CIA were NOT in afghanistan these people would still exist. They would of still went to afghanistan. They would of still fought the Soviets. They would still received funding. They would still turned to the West once the Soviets withdrew. Two towers would of still fallen. Why? Because it is NOT about the CIA nor any US involvement in Afghanistan. It is about Pan-Islamicism.
     
  39. <blockquote><hr>


    Country well on it's way to democracy? I think, no. Yet there is persistent talk about “democraticizing” Iraq ...


    <hr></blockquote>

    Perhaps you would understand better if you werent a former communist. Things take time. What is the saying? Rome was not built in a day. For a people who have never had democracy or western ideal of one it will take time for the people to learn it and want it. One very important obstacle is fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of what one has always known is going to change and into what, no one knows.

    When the Soviet Union collapsed I was for sending aid to them to help them build a democracy many others were not. It takes time to build an infrastructure especially to generations that grew up in communist ideals and a country who has never known anything else other than Czarist Serfdom and most of those people are long dead.

    Afghanistan is no different. A way of life has to be overcome and that takes time. Resentment will always be there. Some will act violently against it in some form.

    I think the democracy that is talked of Iraq is a more open political system were more than one party can operate. One to where the heads of state are elected by Popular vote and not by some close knit group of individuals who are also run by the heads of state. I am sure the more open minded who dont need pipe bomb enemas will not resort to BS diversionary tactics of blithering on about past US national elections and clearly see that this is something that Iraq does not have nor Afghanistan. Afghanistan is getting its first national military and yes it does have success and pitfalls. The pitfalls being that some Warlords dont want to lose their personnel to this new National Army. The success being its creation and acceptance by many.

    Nation building does not happen in a day nor does it happen in a single year. Things take time. Some of you seem so quick to denounce physical force but you so or seem so unrealistic in a belief that thoughts can be changed overnight. Even with no physical force thoughts would remain and perhaps it would take decades for changes to bear fruit to where the country could be seen as stable.

    Afghanistan has suffered several droughts for years that is not going to go away because bombs were dropped and the Taliban were removed. Many farmers went to growing drug crops to make money because food crops could not be grown. The US has been even before this food aid. I am sure that the EU and other UN entities have been matching this and doing its share to help.
     
  40. <blockquote><hr>


    An interesting turn of words there that conveniently leaves out the occupied territories, ie west bank and gaza strip. It is Israels continued occupation of those territories that is the root cause of conflict in teh region and the extention or rights, freedom and democracy in Israel does not reach these areas.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Continued occupation? Oh you mean Eqypts occupation of Gaza that did nothing for Palestinian Muslims. Did not help them build a government nor economy. Oh you mean Jordans occupation of the West Bank of which it annexed shortly after it took it in the 48 war. Jordan occupied the West Bank till 1967. So in almost 20 years it could not help the Palestinian Muslims to create their own government and economy?

    The root cause Feeniks is that the older generation of these people chose to not co-habit but to go to war against. We have 50 years of resentment over this. The Jews were suppose to lose but they didnt. Instead at heavy cost they beat back their attackers and in so doing occupied more land than the UN designated which went against what the Arab Leagues orginial intentions were, to secure the arab UN designated land. They instead chose to invade the Jewish section and got their butt kicked. Spoils of war. You come and attack my house dont get pissed when I come over and take your house and displace you to the streets. Dont be a puss either and demand that I give the house back. That is your penalty for being an ingant dolt. If you decide to attack me from somewhere else dont get pissed when I come kick your butt again and displace you. When your family continues to attack my family dont get pissed that years down the road I tattoo all your foreheads so I can see you readily and expect the worse. When your family starts to not attack my family then we can work on the fear my family has of yours and we can work on something. But to continue this BS that your family is the Oppressed, was just minding its own business and does not share atleast equal responsibility while my family is the Oppressor and has no reason for its action or we should say reactions is utter BS.

    How long do people remain refugees? 50 years? If you are born after that are you a refugee? If dwellings are built where you stop running and you live there generations are you still a refugee? Or are you simply now a transplant? Ie, you moved. I dont doubt that some have been forced as in physically forced but the question remains that NOT all were. Many were mentally forced under their own beliefs that they would of been. Many fled and abandoned homes for fear of jewish reprisals over a umm war. Some still yet refused to live under a non-islamic government.

    The fact is that people settled on land that no one owned. That no one lived on. People can make claims all the want but no one owned it and on one was living on it. They may of walked on it to get to someother point. In 1947 there was no government in Palestine. The only government was the British overseer.
     
  41. Guest

    Guest Guest

    By the time I was old enough so I could start judging whether having a communist membership card would be beneficial, it was fashionable to destroy those cards as a form of protest. I only got to be a member of your equivalent of scouts. So formally you are wrong. If you are refering to the background as such - that was adressed in the thread about the "who killed the most".

    I'm also well aware about the time - the sentence you choose to ignore. My question primarily concerned something that IMO could and should have been achieved even in this relatively short period of time, not only in Kabul but elswhere too. I don't have any illusion about the ability to change things overnight. Yet, I'd expect that there is some sort of plan and some concrete goals and some timelines when what is to be done.

    I do question the very concept of "exporting" the democracy which I see simply as an ambigous smokescreen used to achieve very concrete geopolitical goals of US. The process is not even backed up with sufficient funds. And no amount of cash is gonna convince the "average" folk about the benefits of democracy if all they see is the same warlords that have been around for last 15-20 years getting the cash or reselling the stuff brought in as a humanitarian help.

    Iraq, come on? Why not start with "democraticizing" or "Westernizing" Kuwait first? It would be kinda small scale pilot project and one would expect US to have much more leverage with Kuwaiti people than with Iraqis.
     
  42. Feenicks

    Feenicks Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    good greif... Why on earth has this old thing been resurrected...
    Sorry but quite frankly i just dont have the time right now to even begin to respond to all this.
     
  43. Taishakutin

    Taishakutin Guest

    <blockquote><hr>


    For a people who have never had democracy or western ideal of one it will take time for the people to learn it and want it. One very important obstacle is fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of what one has always known is going to change and into what, no one knows.


    <hr></blockquote>

    They do have TVs there you know...

    And before the destruction of Iraq at the hands of the US and its 32 allies Iraqi people were among some of the most educated in the world. This wasn't a proletarian society. This was a middling classes society, where most were educated. You can't compare the two situations.

    Oh and spout this same rhetorical bull**** to those who tried to rise up against saddam when GBS offered them help then promptly refuse it.

    <blockquote><hr>


    Things take time. Some of you seem so quick to denounce physical force but you so or seem so unrealistic in a belief that thoughts can be changed overnight. Even with no physical force thoughts would remain and perhaps it would take decades for changes to bear fruit to where the country could be seen as stable.


    <hr></blockquote>

    Ha!

    Ha!

    Enforcing democracy from outside? That's terrible - disgusting and as dictatorial as anything saddam has ever done.

    "Oh we know what's good for you and, having already killed a million of you, we're going to kill many more of you to grant, I mean, force our, I mean your, "democratically elected leader" upon you so that we, I mean you, can most benefit from our, I mean your, oil..."
     
  44. Red Wolf

    Red Wolf Guest

    Sorry to drag this post up. But have a read and think if America has learned ANYTHING since then. I'm just counting the days now because I know another 9-11 is right on the way and most Americans don't realise it or the fact that they caused it themselves.
     
  45. Wisty

    Wisty Guest

    America? I checked your profile, and it says UK. In case you have forgotten, it wasn't just America that went into this war, but also UK and Australia, predominately. So if you're going to point fingers, make sure to turn one inward at your country.

    Anyhow, hopefully not only we are learning things to prevent terrorism, but that the terrorist countries are learning that you can't just bomb and laugh and walk away and get away with it. Though I wish everyone would learn we don't need to go to war at all; there are better ways to resolve things IF people will just try.
     
  46. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The US has gotten away with bombing, laughing and walking away for decades now.
     
  47. Mother Zub

    Mother Zub Guest

    /php-bin/shared/images/icons/queen.gif/php-bin/shared/images/icons/sad.gif..........................................................&gt;/php-bin/shared/images/icons/maul.gif
     
  48. Guest

    Guest Guest

    That has nothing to do with what was just said.
     
  49. Correct. I think it was because he was talking to Wistaria and not you./php-bin/shared/images/icons/wink.gif