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Will imbuing wreck the economy?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Larry, Apr 8, 2009.

  1. Larry

    Larry Guest

    Weapons and armor are priced by the combination of properties. For example, a mage weapon with DCI is worth way more than one with HCI simply because it's a desired combination of properties.

    From what I understand about imbuing is you can design weapons by disenchanting one weapon and using its property on another. Wouldn't this wreck the current economy in game? People who pay 100+ mil for uber mage weapons or balanced bows can now imbue an identical item by taking mods off trash items and combining them into super gear for almost no gold.

    Am I missing something here? Or will everyone try and sell off godly items right before the expansion releases?
     
  2. Pink Floyd

    Pink Floyd Sage
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    The imbued weapons can't be powder of fortified so they will eventually break.
     
  3. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
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    1. As PF said, they can't be PoF'd.
    2. Imbued items have one less maximum property than items crafted with a high end runic kit (runic kits can get DI for free on weapons and extra defense points on armors from materials and arms lore bonusses, not to mention extras from recipes)
    3. Imbued weapons will drop in durability quickly. Somebody complains here on a regular basis about having to repair his sword and armor daily. That is an extreme situation, but those are the people who sustain the economy.

    And most importantly:
    Most people who were able to buy high end weapons and armor already have it. I'm sure you won't be able to improve on my mage's suit by adding imbuing, and I can keep that suit forever.

    And a side note: Isn't the economy already ruined?
     
  4. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Actually think it will do the opposite, precisely because you don't need to fork out the inflated 100+ mil for a good weapon/armour.

    Besides those mentioned above, note that although you can select the properties, the intensity depends on the ingredients you use.

    For the best ingredient to imbue a property at max intensity (eg DI, Slayer, mage weapon, fast cast), you need to sacrifice a magic item with 5 properties at 100%/100%/100%/100%/80% intensities. I have been looking out for these items and they are not easy to find...

    And that's to have a chance to imbue 1 property, you can fail. If you want 5 properties at max intensities, you need to do this 5 times.

    It also gets progressively harder to imbue the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th properties.

    Finally, once you are done, you get a temporary weapon that will break, since you cannot use fortification powders on it to recover loss of max durability.

    Edit: In case people miss my posts below, there are 3 types of relics so far -
    <= 199 Total Intensity = Magical Residue
    200 to 399 Total Intensity = Enchanted Essence
    400+ = Relic Fragment
     
  5. Joshua Ravenloft

    Joshua Ravenloft Journeyman
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    One of the most sensible decisions this Dev team have ever made IMO.
     
  6. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    IMO it will have bigger impact on mage weapons since it's used more for defensive purpose and not on the offensive side.

    A good mage weapon requires many 100% mod. According to DEVs, Spell Channeling -1, Fact Casting 1, Mage Weapon -20 are all 100% intensity mod. Those are aready 300% property intensity. Throw in DCI and SSI/Hit spell will cap out the mods at 5.

    An imbued weapon will be easier to have all the mods you wanted but impossible to surpass the possibility on a runic made one.

    Imbued AND optimized crossbow can have Balanced, Hit Lighting 50, Hit Velocity 50, SSI 40(30?), then for the last property it can be Hit chance OR HLD OR Damage

    While a dream runic crafted one can have all 4 of the main mods + free 40DI + hci or hld and will never break.

    It wont impact dexer godly weapons too much but will indeed make runic mage weapon drop in price.
     
  7. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
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  8. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Just wanted to clarify this better, you cannot extract a single property that you want from the magic item and transplant it on another item. You have to use a soulforge to "smelt" (it is not exactly smelting, I am using "smelt" to illustrate that the item will be destroyed) the entire item to get an ingredient (relic?) of some sort.

    The strength of the relic you get depends on the sum of intensities of all magic properties on that item you smelted.

    An item with only 1 property at max intensity will probably get you a crappy relic. An item with 2 properties will likely give you a level 2 relic, 3 maxed out property gives you a level 3 and so forth. An item with 5 properties at max (or close to it) intensities will net you the best relic.

    This relic can then be used as one of the ingredients to imbue one magic property at max intensity on your designated item.

    So you are essentially trading 5 maxed out properties for one of your choice. It's a losing proposition, but sure beats finding an item with a bunch of mismatched properties like 100 luck, self repair 5, 50% lower requirements, stamina regen 3, stamina increase 8. A good piece, but not suitable for either warriors or mages...

    Edit: In case people missed my posts below, there are 3 types of relics so far -
    <= 199 Total Intensity = Magical Residue
    200 to 399 Total Intensity = Enchanted Essence
    400+ = Relic Fragment
     
  9. slayer888

    slayer888 Lore Keeper
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    Quite confusing with imbue:-

    So say, if I found an item with 50 hit lower defense and I go to soulforge and smelt it.

    I get a relic of "50 hit lower defense"??

    Then I could use that relic to imbue on an existing weapon say

    50 mana leech
    50 hit lighting
    50 di
    40 ssi

    and if successful, it will have that 50 hit lower defense on that weapon as well?

    Am I correct or wrong here?

    Thanks.
     
  10. Viquire

    Viquire Crazed Zealot
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    wrong.

    And its complicated. There's a whole lengthy thread on the subject stickied up top o' the page.

    Woops, no there isn't. SA now has its own forum. Try here
     
  11. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    I'm afraid that's not how it works. Taken from the imbuing clarification sticky:

    So if your item only has 50 hit lower defense (100% intensity = 100 points), it will fall in the <= 199 points range. Meaning you get only the weakest ingredient (magical residue). Imbuing luck to an item using magical residue will likely give you a maximum of 33 luck.

    Now, if your item has 50 HLD (100% intensity) and SSI 35 (100% intensity) but no other properties, it will fall in the 200 to 399 range. You get the medium strength ingredient (enchanted essence).

    To get the best ingredient (relic fragment), you need an uber item. Some items that may be considered uber will not get you the best ingredient. Eg:

    A 50 HLD, 50 Hit Lightning, 50 DI, 25 SSI weapon will get you only a medium ingredient (enchanted essence).

    But if your item has more SSI, eg - 50 HLD, 50 Hit Lightning, 50 DI, 30 SSI, then you get the best ingredient (relic fragment).

    You can now use this relic fragment to imbue 1 max intensity property (eg 50 HLD) on another weapon. So you destroyed 1 very good item with 4 very good properties. In exchange, you only get to choose 1 property on your favorite weapon. You are always making a loss.

    But it beats having items with mismatched magic properties like the example I gave several posts above.
     
  12. slayer888

    slayer888 Lore Keeper
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    Wow i see! Thanks for the explanation.

    However, I still have one question wanted to ask:-

    1. Will I be able to imbue property on runic crafted item?

    2. Will I be able to imbue property on artifacts?


    Or

    just say, what kind of things I could do imbue on?

    Thanks!
     
  13. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    1) Yes, as long as it's not made out of coloured ingots. You cannot imbue enhanced items. But you can try to enhance imbued items. Also, you can only have a maximum of 5 magic properties on that item. The DI increase from GM smithing/armslore counts as 1 property. Unlike runic items, where you can get 5 magic properties plus a free 40% DI bonus from gm smithing/armslore

    2) Nope, cannot imbue artifacts or smelt them.

    No imbuing is fine. But it would be nice to at least be able to smelt those holy knight breastplates / dragon lances and the mini arties like cavorting clubs etc and make them useful.

    3) As to what items you can imbue on and what kind of properties you can imbue on these items - you can imbue any armour/weapon/shields/jewelry that can normally be generated with magic properties (eg like those magic items you loot or can craft using runics).

    http://www.uoherald.com/guide/guide.php?guideId=57
     
  14. Sweeney

    Sweeney Guest

    The facts on imbuing are contradicting, some posts say any mod can be added without risk to the item, others say the item has a chance to be destroyed.. I just had this discussion on Siege regarding a bow I have for sale. Once the facts become clear everything else will too.
     
  15. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    It's not confusing at all.

    Imbuing will NOT destory an item, when you fail to imbue an item you destory some of the INGREDIENTS, NOT the item thats being imbued.

    Unraval will ALWAYS destory the item because you are extract the possible ingredients out of it. Its like smelting, you will ALWAYS destory the item and get some ingots for it.
     
  16. aoLOLita

    aoLOLita Sage
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    I don't blame people for not reading the original Imbue link, quite lengthy - I've waded through it twice.

    First of all, an uber 5 max intensity item is still going to cost 100 million, because the "R&D" put into it will immense !!!

    The Imbuing will be relatively simple operation - ONCE you have trained an Artificer to 120 ---

    I estimate the training time w/o cheating would be 3 months for avid player, 6 months for a normal. And the cost in training ingredients will be 100-300 million in ingredients, demanding a fulltime gold farmer or a guild to supply special ingredients.

    Up to 50 skill will be basically a free ride - after that, you must make and/or unravel increasingly higher intensity items to gain in skill. In fact, one will need to what we consider now an uber item, only to turn around and destroy it just to gain skill -- and using the resultant essense to do it all over again...

    Start collecting your loot now - save all those items that have FC1 or slayer or ubws, if the wp has all 3 that's 300 Intensity right off! Add 2 more medium intensities, and you have a "relic" ingredient when you unravel.

    What I plan on doing is making some very nice jewels and weapons, but the 5 max Ubers will be few and far between unless I am extremely lucky:

    -- I keep 3/1 jewels with 1-2 higher end mods such as 10-12 DCI/sdi/mage skill/fire resist (necero)/Int+ etc - then I will "erase" unwanted mods and add "medium" essences to make a 3/1, dci 12ish/lmc5-6ish/LRCC 12-16ish jewel.
     
  17. Specialshoes

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    Be able to make weapons that people will want. And being as they can't be POF'd this could possibly be the best change to supply and demand that blacksmiths need.
     
  18. Nvnter

    Nvnter Guest

    Is it possible to wreck this economy any further? I really don't see this expansion happening anytime soon since they are still considering what is going in it.

    How long did it take to fix the 11th Items? They still don't have the banks done.

    I would worry about more substantial things ingame. :sleep2:
     
  19. Turdnugget

    Turdnugget Guest

    Imbueing is going to be more for PvP. You can PoF the weapon up to 255 durability before you even start enchanting.

    So when finished, you'll have a godly weapon with 255/255 durability. Now in PvP you cycle through a good number of weapons...Losing durability isn't going to be that big of an issue and the weapon will last for at least a month or more, unless you do heavy PvP. By the time the weapon wears out, you've already got a back up made.

    I think imbueing will help level the field of how much godly items cost in order to compete in PvP. It'll be easier for that striving mage to get a desireable mage weapon to use, instead of forking out millions of gold for a nice weapon made by a duped hammer.

    Runics will still be around... sure you can get more intensities and what not... but who wants to spend millions of gold for something slightly better when you can farm for crap items and use them to imbue something just a level under something runic made. And you can put the desired mods on the weapon. You don't have to pray to the RNG gods that you'll get the mods you're looking for.

    I've burnt lots of uses on Test, and in order to get a desireable mage weapon, unless you're UBER lucky, takes about 100+ uses...that's not cost effective on a prodo shard unless you have an unlimited supply of verite/valorite hammers.

    It'll be interesting how it effects jewelry though... I think that should not be imbueable. At least not being able to ADD skills to it. If it's already got skill on it, ok, you can add HCI/DCI/EP whatever... just not be able to create a 15 HCI/DCI, 25 EP uber skill ring...
     
  20. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Harlequin, where is your data coming from. Honestly if completely correct, imbuing is useless as currently envisioned.
     
  21. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Harlequin, my first question is poorly worded, let me start over :) Having read thread after thread on imbuing - I remain confused, and disappointed. Separating fact from rumor, and grasping what info is/ isn't current is a bit of a pain. Your explanations in this thread seem well thought and precise; I suppose my first question is what is your information based upon? I assume we've got a focus group or player testers (whatever we're calling these folks nowadays) working this one already, and in light of NDAs associated to these efforts, have you or anyone gotten any feedback from this group?

    My concerns with the skill and application as described are many. 1) Its a very complicated system. UO maintains unparalleled depth and complexity; to our benefit. Having said that, this seems more than a little “over the top.” If I understand correctly, you “unravel” an item using the imbuing skill and the item goes away – simple enough. The properties on the item and your imbuing skill combine in some manner to yield one of three things, “residue,” “essence” or a “relic fragment,” the latter being the desired outcome. To attain the relic, the original item required combined property intensities exceeding 400%. From the relic, assuming all has gone well in the process, you are then able to attempt to imbue one property of your choice onto a new item, so long as it has not been enhanced. Is this correct?

    Beyond complexity, my next concern is 2) where do the items with the potential to yield relics come from? I’ve played UO for a hair under 12 years now, tend to focus on the “grandest” challenges around, and am a proverbial pack rat. I don’t possess these items. Between all our houses, sure I can probably find a few pieces that would break the 400% intensity range, mainly because some of the 100% intensities are “all or nothing” (e.g. FC 1, SC, or not so far behind properties like MR 2), but it really isn’t as simple as that once you begin to “peel the onion.” It seems safe to assume, that unraveling an item means there is at least one single property on it you want to use to enhance another item. Not only does there have to be 300% worth of other properties to “validate” the attempt, the one property you want has to be 100% itself (an interesting feat if for example you’re looking for 25% DI on a ring!). And as you’ve stated, you must do this five times. Results from those five items, all of which were very rare, can now be directed toward the item you wish to create. If I understand correctly, the first effort to imbue the 100% property should transfer without difficulty assuming maximum character skill. But, again if I understand correctly, it will become progressively harder the more properties we try and add. Is this correct? If it is, then it seems likely that 5 “uber” items, now unraveled/ gone, will not suffice to create a single, non-enhanced imbued item with specific properties – the goal of the entire system. An item which can’t be fortified either? But I digress. Again, where do the base items come from? DFs and various peerless as things currently stand. But even then, and with high levels of luck (my tamer has played with over 1500 for years), these are not commonplace. So should we expect to see loot rescaled across the boards to enable the imbuing system to have merit and succeed? I’m betting no. Will luck finally be fixed (not the attribute per se, the entire system that enables/ doesn’t enable it to function as originally intended)? I am skeptical. Will they insert spawn into SA that allows for incredible loot, to enable justifying and validating the imbuing system? I do suspect this is the easiest path for dev to pursue if they insist on imbuing functioning as described above. They might even try the unsuccessful route they attempted with power scrolls by putting the “enabling spawn” in the PvP area of the abyss – and since that’s the worst thing that could possibly happen, it’s probably where we’re headed!!! Well, maybe second worse, I suppose we could introduce a new system, imbuing, and let it fail before it’s even implemented, which depending on one’s perspective – could be worse. But that brings me to my third major concern.

    3) What does imbuing do for me - why do I want it? When announced, personally I reactivated an account based on potential for this skill/ system and the new race. The more I see/ hear, the more I question that decision. Since AOS, items matter. We hunt for artifacts, and you actually see more of this now as the “system” finally works. Heartwood crafting, a system that doesn’t work as well, does definitively serve a role and will continue to do so based upon items that can be created from efforts there. New lands, new artifacts, new craftables, runic kits, and new systems (the replicas in champ spawns) all compete for “roles” relative to one another and time available to each of us as players. So where will imbuing fit in? It “could” have a major role, or may have none at all actually if it’s “too hard” and “too limited.” I think I want it, but am honestly skeptical of the overall system as described. If I can’t attain needed items, develop the skill itself, and tailor those specific pieces I’d like to complete suits/ weapons and expect the piece to have some lifespan, then what’s the point? You made the statement in one of your posts:
    Fair enough, if it works, but I’m not really sure your conclusion will play out – in fact, it seems it probably won’t! Mismatched properties suck to be sure, but if you can’t imbue a better product than the dupers/ cheaters make with their endless supply of “rare” runics that Mythic refuses to address, then what’s the point? Go to an aftermarket site, spend $20 for gold, buy the duped valorite runic hammer from the in game player vendor, and make arms better than you could have imbued even if you had an endless pile of upper end loot to unravel.

    It sort of brings me to my final point, 4) where does imbuing “fit” into the game? Without a defined place or role among all the other things we can do to outfit and equip our characters, if this thing isn’t “relooked” as described, consider me a skeptic.

    Complaining without offering alternatives is useless, so let me try and be a little more objective. Why not a) make it simple, b) make items attainable, and c) make the skill desirable? Let me toss out a few “easy” thoughts. 1) Unravel by property, not combination thereof. All unraveled properties become residue or whatever “title” is preferred. At GM imbuing, trying to unravel a 100% property (e.g. poison resist 15), set probability at something like 50% to keep all 15 points. Let’s face it, not unraveling all 15 points means a failed attempt to most of us. And keep it constant. If unraveling a weapon with 5 properties or a piece of jewelry with a single property of poison resist 15, that specific property should be treated the same. On the weapon, you’d simply get 5 pieces of residue, one of which would be the poison resist. The most important thing in this method is that the source for loot is fixed; higher level creatures can yield 100% intensity single properties, not just lots of them on single items. 2) Maintain increased difficulty for successive properties. Losing the residue seems appropriate, as the loot enabling more residues would be attainable. Protect the base item, as things seem to currently exist. Maintain the fortification restriction if you must, but personally I loathe the entire concept, and would prefer to see the 5th/ final property just a lot harder to successfully imbue. As a consequence, the skill has a role, answering all the above. In terms of how major of a change is this – not so big really – it’s all on the unraveling side and geared toward easing the difficulty of attaining decent/ useful loot.

    Anyway, some food for though. Thank you for your comments and explanations, they were helpful. I’m still just trying to get my arms around this one!
     
  22. Tina Small

    Tina Small Stratics Legend
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    Harb, there are two sentences in the overview of the Imbuing skill included in the SA pages on the uo.com site (http://www.uoherald.com/stygianabyss/gameoverview/skills/imbuing.php) that I think are critical for evaluating where this skill will fit into the grander scheme of things:

    "For artificers, constructing magical items is an extension of themselves, akin to an artist aspiring to paint her magnum opus."

    "With rare exceptions, imbued items will not be as powerful as loot dropped artifacts, but will be powerful enough to allow a skilled player to overcome the difference. "

    I interpret these two sentences as meaning that the pieces that have five well-coordinated maxed properties will take a long time to create, with many failed attempts at polishing them along the way and most imbued pieces will be created for the purpose of complementing a specific character's existing skill set. They will not have properties that are as high as those found on true artifacts, since you will only be able to buff up the properties on a piece up to their normal, non-artifact maximums. However, they may be (temporarily) far more useful to a specific character than an artifact might ever be.
     
  23. This is how it should be... imbuing should not be able to create thousands of godly weapons, so that anything else is worthless. It MUST be implemented so that crafting and runics are still worthwhile, and not easy to create the ultimate weapon/ armor/ jewelry.
     
  24. Harb

    Harb Guest

    I agree, but remember the converse is also true, imbuing must be viable also. As described above, it isn't. I thought as a process it required the correlating crafting skill also, for example tinkering to imbue rings/ bracelets. If it doesn't, well, it should. To achieve results, you need the skill, and the base items with incredible properties to unravel simply to enable the process to function. Thats a significantly higher "standard" than normal crafting for runics. The exception to this is of course duping for max runics, which takes no effort or ethics whatsoever, or trips to aftermarket sites to buy the gold needed to pay for the duped hammers/ fletching kits. The bottom line is there needs to be some enticement to make the skill and process work. What's described above doesn't do that. The process itself needs to offset the cheating that has been, and continues to be allowed in the game. Empower all players through their legitimate efforts, and rid the game of those who "play" outside the rules.
     
  25. NuSair

    NuSair Babbling Loonie
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    I've been collecting them for a while. I have almost a house full of those invasion weapons (they make good 'starter' items, imo) and I've been looting things with 2-3 'max' intensity abilities. It's amazing what you'll find once you start looking. And I have a 2nd house almost full of that stuff as well.

    There are also other places to look, but I don't want to give all my secrets out! lol, then it wouldn't be there for me to find (usually on the ground).
     
  26. Jhym

    Jhym Guest

    If they do this properly, I expect those imbued items to be named or nameable, and to always have the imbuer's name linked to them in some way.

    Since the skill doesn't deal with 'exceptional' additions, it either has to attach our names or give us some other way to show our work.

    Perhaps you are given the option of a personal seal after "master" level is achieved.
     
  27. G.v.P

    G.v.P Stratics Legend
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    After all of the valorite runic hammers magically appearing on Atlantic a few months ago, I don't think there is much of a stable economy left in this game. From a purist's stand point, imbuing levels the playing field, but for an elitist who prides him or herself on acquiring "the best," yeah, it might make PvP sort of bland (copy cat killers).

    All I know is imbuing isn't going to help me, I'm already such a pack rat. I'll have to get an imbuing account ;P (jk).
     
  28. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Hi Harb,

    I got the info from Sarphus' sticky on imbueing here:

    http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?t=107643


    Under the Unravelling heading:
    Unraveling
    Q: It was mentioned that now would be a good time to stock up on mundane weapons. Is it also good to stock up on mundane armor and jewlery too?
    A: You can. If your intent is to unravel them into Imbuing ingredients.

    Q: Does it matter what mods and the mod intensities are on an item when you unravel them, or can you just unravel any item to get the best resources?
    A: The total intensity of the item determines the what Imbuing ingredient is received when unraveling a magic item.

    Q: How does the system determine what resources to give you when you unravel an item?
    A: I believe the current design is as follows:
    <= 199 Total Intensity = Magical Residue
    200 to 399 Total Intensity = Enchanted Essence
    400+ = Relic Fragment

    So to get a Relic Fragment, you would need 4 item properties at 100% intensity each or 5 item properties at 80% intensity each, etc.

    DISCLAIMER: What I've stated here are the base guidelines. There are other factors that can affect the type of fragment received from magic unraveling such as being a gargoyle, special soul forge bonus, possible durability penalty, penalty if item is imbued since the magic is unstable.


    Yup, that's how I understand it. Though they did add a disclaimer saying that it's currently a rough guide, and that there are bonuses for being a gargoyle/using a soulforge and penalties for durability/imbuing a previously imbued item.


    Yeah, these 400% total intensity items are really hard to find. I am a packrat too and have been collecting magic items that have 3+ maxed out properties. I seem to be getting them more on the ML named paragons and peerless. Succubus also gives good items once in a while. However, bone daemon and balron sucks. DF is a bit iffy (I intentionally skip the first/second rooms and wait to loot the DF when the corpse go public, lots of people miss great items that are useful to me).

    And yeah, chances are we'll need more than 5 relics to make that uber 5 property item.


    Personally, I don't buy runics/runic pieces. I like to craft/loot my own equipment myself. I have burned several runics and with my luck, the majority of my pieces are totally mismatched :(

    I have been asking/supporting a change to the runic system that let players choose a couple of the runics properties based on their skill levels, but imbuing seems like more balanced idea and would work perfectly for me.

    Once it's implemented, I intend to dry corpses and "unravel" everything. There should be more than enough low level stuff for me to train. Higher levels may be a problem, but we'll have to wait and see how the system will be implemented. Perhaps they will implement it like mining, where you can gain skill even when mining normally, and on top of that, there's a difficulty system - smelting harder ores gives you a better chance to gain skill.

    Also, the devs mentioned that they will be doing a overhaul of monster loot, so it's likely that the overhaul is being done in preparation of imbuing.

    To do the actual imbuing, I have a ton of low level runics (dull/shadow/spined) to create a base item with a couple of the properties I want, then imbue the rest of the properties that I want onto them. The "failed" runic stuff will go feed my soulforge. The low level runics will thus be useful for something, and I can finally use my stockpile (I'm a packrat and don't ever throw these less useful runics away. In fact, I pick up those that people throw away at the bank...).

    My plan for the beginning is to imbue low end stuff for my chars to use first (runic MR 2, LRC 16+, then imbue some resists), at the same time I will gain skill and imbue even better stuff.


    For me, the role of imbuing complements the runic system very nicely, and makes the low end runics actually useful. That's not to say it's useless by itself, it works well as stand-alone skill.

    As to you suggestion, I like part of the good idea, but it may need further tweaking. On one hand, it will give alot more ingredients, while on the other hand, it makes them potentially less flexible. In general, I do not want lower requirements, self repair, HP increase, or LMC. I prefer to be able to have them turned into generic use relics that can be used for any properties. A secondary issue in fixing a certain property in each relic would result in alot of lockdowns for a ton of relics for each magic property and intensity. ie assuming that the relics will be stackable, instead of 3 stacks of relics (Magical Residue, Enchanted Essence and, Relic Fragment), we would have stacks for

    1) 15 types of relics for posion resists - Relic [15 poison], Relic [14 posion],Relic [13 posion] etc etc
    2) 15 types of relics for fire resists - Relic [15 fire], Relic [14 fire] etc
    3) 15 for cold etc etc
    4) MR 1, MR 2
    5) 100 types of luck relics for Luck 1 to 100
    6) 15 for dci
    7) 20 for lrc
    8) 8 for lmc

    etc etc

    At the moment, I think they would rather err on the side of caution and make it more difficult to get ingredients until they get a better feel.more feedback, and at the same time reduce the types/number of lockdowns. From what I have read up though, I think they've hit on a pretty good balance.

    As it is, there are players like that OP that are concerned that it could potentially be overpowered and ruin the economy.
     
  29. Harb

    Harb Guest

    I couldn't find a thing I disagree with, and do want to sincerely thank you for the response. I had seen the comments you reference, but again, just aren't really sure where we are on the imbuing system currently. A few elaborations/ asides:
    I "beat" on our dev folks from time to time over the years, but do appreciate all they do, even when not to my personal "liking" or preferred "direction." There have even been a couple over the years that fit into the friend category :) That said, it seems we're way beyond the days when dev was resourced adequately to tackle such a task. The intention may be there, it probably is, but beyond noble intent, I wouldn't bank on this one. Lets face it, balrons and shadow wyrms have been supposedly on this slate since the demise of the silver vanq broadsword, and thats been some time ago. I do suspect however, that with the SA dungeon, we will see new spawn that will produce loot to higher intensity levels. Trying to ensivsion what was press released early on and intermittently since led/ leads me to the major concern that loot, the special forge, and scrolls (imbuing/ throwing/ mysticism) would be integral to the SA dungeon PvP "zone" and employed as a "lure" or "reward" (perspective driven) into this area. Its another argument for another day, but in most of the major muscle movements dev plans and executes, they do maintain focus and synergy on certain themes (in this case one that has waned subscriptions to where we are today). We'll see.

    I don't think self repair will be allowed in imbuing unless something has changed. Lower requirements, durability, and a couple others have had questionable impact forever, and either should be relooked or removed really. HPI, well, is actually a good property except that its capped so low its impact is minimized. I wouldn't have highlighted this sentence of yours if it weren't for the mention of LMC. LMC is a great example of why imbuing, artifacts, and player crafted items can mutually exist and support one another (and BTW I couldn't agree more with your assertion that runics/ imbuing support one another also). LMC, when crafted, maxes at 8%, meaning 5 items with the LMC property to reach its cap of 40. Artifacts in a variety of flavors provide 10, so with 4 of those, you can "save" one required "slot."

    They do routinely make the big changes/ additions with an eye toward caution, often times without enough caution, but as earlier - intention and implementation don't always pair. They also tend to decide on a direction, and never sway from it (I've only seen this happen once, even in my days of player testing). And finally, once done (directionally), there are no course reversals. In light of all the above, it's even more important to get this one systemically and procedurally correct, and as simple as possible to adjust for any misqueues. Its part of why I was saying earlier the only major change I'd encourage is unravelling by single property opposed to cumlative effect. It's much easier to adjust skill requirements to expected outcome singularly. In my earlier example, if 50% chance to unravel all 15 poison resist from a PR 15 ring at GM imbuing/ GM tinkering is too high based on loot projections, drop it to 40, or 35, or 25. Same thing for successfully adding it on the new target item, the simplier the formula, the easier the tweak. But its a damn good bet, if the formula for 400% goes in, we'll live with it forever in some version or another. If the only place for the needed loot are from new additions to spawn, it'll hold as true until the next major upgrade/ expansion - at a minimum. And again it has nothing to do with intentions, dev is resourced only to move forward, not sideways or backwards as added requirements - no "slight" intended toward anyone.

    Well, this concern can stem from many legitimate, and many unlegitimate starting points. This thing really isn't laid out clearly, precisely, and comprehensively. Some folks just have questions and concerns. Some folks want to enhance their game experience at the expense of others - I'm sure the val hammer dupers want nothing more than to be left to their devices with no means for others to comphensate. Part of the potential beauty of this thing is what it can do, potentially, to enhance play for those who play. Everyone can build a mule/ artificer, and everyone can attain single max property items. You don't have to master Doom, or play in groups with your favorite peerless, and you don't have to buy the item from the vendor with the leet items and the val hammer for sale. Inability to fortify ensures that since you are playing, you can't maintain the item forever (though if you fortify on advance it should last a good while. Maybe the 4th or 5th property might systemically lower max durability to say 200 then 150). There's just so much potential here for the good of everyone playing legitimately that I really, really think this one needs to be done correctly!

    Again, thanks for the response.
     
  30. Fink

    Fink Guest

    Even the near-maxed properties will be extremely useful, so spending 100m on a maxed out piece isn't altogether necessary.

    5 x 100% properties will be the end-game item, your 100m piece.

    5 x 80% will be much easier to achieve, ergo far cheaper, and much better than most current looted stuff as you get to pick and choose exactly what properties will complement your suit/template.

    If people want to spend a zillion on the absolute best it's still an option, but I see some "next-best" pieces bridging the gaps between the uberkitted power player and the newcomer. Doesn't mean a whole lot for pvm (although tuning your gear to your prey will be good), but I think it'll take some sting out of the entry-level requirement for pvp.
     
  31. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Harlequin, a few more querries if you have a moment:
    1) In light of the 400% requirement for full "transfer" of a property, how does a scribe address this, as they're limited to 3 properties and there is no "natural" spawn?
    2) Leechers (mana/ life) for weapons "max" based on weapon swing speed and the swing speed property if present on a looted or crafted item. How does this integrate? Could we in theory add the leech first and follow with SSI later? Just curious :)
    3) I think it was Leorcian who recently provided a few updates in a FoF, I don't recal when/ where, but think he included that only properties that can be naturally on an item can be imbued onto one - which makes sense. How do they account for SSI on a tourquoise ring, or added enhance pots on an Ecru citrine ring? Again, just curious!
    Thanks again.
     
  32. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Erm, just wanted to put up a disclaimer first - I am just a normal player, and do not have any privileged info. So I don't know anything more than what I can remember from what I've read and interpreted from the boards. Which also means there's a risk that I may have recalled or interpreted things incorrectly heh :p

    Feel free to correct me if I am wrong :D

    1) I don't think they are including spellbooks in imbuing at the moment

    2) This one is a bit confusing because they scaled the leech according to swingspeed. However, I don't think it will be done any differently than what is done to runics with leech and SSI.

    Now I have a question :D Does the current leech scale according to the base speed of the weapon or does it take SSI into account? And for that matter, can anyone point me to a guide on how do I convert the old weapon speed to the current one, and a guide on how the leech is scaled? Many thanks in advance!

    3) If imbuing, they would likely count as 1 of the 5 properties per item cap. Meaning you can only imbue 4 more properties. If unravelling, they will likely produce ingredients according to their intensities.

    Now I am only guessing - the 5% SSI you can get from a turquise ring would logically count as 5% divided by 30% (the strength of the property divided by the max value for that property), resulting in a measly 17 points in intensity.

    Rhis calculation method this seems like the easiest way to work backwards and calculate the intensity. *Unless* the item records actually already stores the intensity percentages, and the values we currently see are actually processed by the server before being sent to us (but I doubt they would something this inefficient, takes too much cpu cycles).

    Ercu Citrine ring would be interesting to see though, since you can get more than the normal enhance potion cap of 25. Would they do 50%/25%, giving you 200 points from 1 property? Or would they cap it at 100 points per property? Or will the cap be determined by your skill? (ie at 80 skill, when you unravel a 100% property, you only get 80 points. At 120 skill, you can get up to 120 points per property?

    More food for thought.


    PS, Your idea on reducing the durability for imbuing more properties is a good balance for being able to get ingredients more easily too. They did also mention that the difficulty of imbuing properties is also dependant on the durability. I am guessing if you pof'd it to 255, there's a heavy penalty to imbuing the item.

    While I like their current plan. I have to agree that your idea has merit too.

    And regarding LMC, it's very useful indeed. When I say I don't want it, I am referring to me only - reason is that on my mage, I use an sdi suit which already gives me maxed out LMC. On my warrior, I don't use alot of mana and I can honor/leech back mana, so LMC is not that critical as well.

    Regarding self-repair, you are right, it's not going to be allowed, so self repair 5 relics would be useless. If they make this a generic use relic, it's probably alot easier to make all the relics generic use, regardless of what property you harvested the relic from.
     
  33. Harb

    Harb Guest

    Any idea how they interpret elemental damage as an intensity %? By this, its clear that 100% fire damage is 100% intensity. But if a weapon has 25% fire damage, 25% cold, 25% poison and 25% energy, would it not also be 100% intensity? Just asking :)
     
  34. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    *scratches head*
    I just don't really see the problem with making good items more available. . . Whats the concern, again? that the 200mil bow you bought and x-fer'd off atlantic will be worth less than it is? And.. the problem for the rest of us is...?

    Theres a reason the weapons are worth 200million gold and such crazy numbers.. If you ask me, and I've played uo since the beginning, Its crap like this thats making the game not only overly-difficult and boring, but just outright intimidating for anyone starting from the bottom..

    When most people find out what it takes to actually get a val hammer, so that they have 15 'chances' to 'maybe' get something decent, they're more likely to say 'screw it, ill play wow'.

    The economy is screwed up already. the fact that any item in the game costs more than 10 MILLION gold, says alot for itself. Its simple supply and demand, and if you ask me, the economy is so far out of whack that its rediculous. When did people stop playing games to have fun? When did people start playing a video game to 'accomplish' something?

    Frankly, id love to see 'decen't equipment become widely available. Quit whining, youll still have yr amazing peice from atl, it just won't be a totally rediculous advantage for you any longer. Yeah, I hope it does hurt the prices of runics, and i really hope it hurts equipment prices all around.

    It would be great if we could just play the game... not live in it.
    it would be awesome if we could be rewarded for effort..not discouraged from it.
    It would be awesome to see the brokers get ACTUAL JOBS!
    It would be even awesomer if people would actually play this game agian.. I can name a fistfull of great players who would consider it, if they didn't think it would take 1billion gold, 5000+ game hours, to get to a good position.

    Somewhere along the way, why hasn't the entire UO community said
    'hey wait, ea games is totally ripping me off!' ? ? ?

    think about it.

    IN SUMMARY< if you just skipped my whole wall of text there:

    the short answer is: No, on the contrary, if they do it right, imbuing should actually FIX the economy. Don't buy anything expensive until further notice.
     
  35. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    Well said.

    I believe the imbuing system will get us a ways down the road to "Replaceable Items"...but they won't be common...and they won't drop off monsters...although some of the bits that make them up will.

    Without a tremendous amount of research, it appears that the high end imbued item will be sought after, made by live players, and something that can be consumed at some point.

    So far, that logic seems to work.

    :thumbsup:
     
  36. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I have a completely different opinion on how an item is imbued. I think the way its goingto work like when you use imbue skill or tool a crafting menu will show up and you have main catogories for weapons/armors/shields/jewels say if you click on weapons you get selections for all the applicable mods for weapons. It might go like lesser hit lighting/hit lighting/greater hit lightings/ultimate hit lighting and each of them requires different ingredients with the highest level one always requiring at least one relic plus other stuff like gems ect.

    Relics is obtained by unraveling items with at least 300 intensity and isnt 100%. Say you unravel an item with 300% intensity you have 10% chance of getting one and up to like 70% from items with 500% and give GM+ artifacier a bonus.

    What I means if you dont really need to unravel weapon with 50 lighting to imbue 50 lighting... but thats all guessing tho.
     
  37. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    At the moment it I think they have not mentioned any changes to the intensity, so it's still 400% intensity to get the best ones, but it's still subject to change. Current relics
    <= 199 Total Intensity = Magical Residue
    200 to 399 Total Intensity = Enchanted Essence
    400+ = Relic Fragment


    Also, from http://www.uoherald.com/stygianabyss/gameoverview/skills/imbuing.php

    "When magically unraveling an item, the artificer uses a soul forge and then selects which item he wishes to unravel.
    One of two results will occur:
    The unraveling process fails. No ingredient is acquired.
    The unraveling process succeeds. The artificer receives one or more ingredients, and the magically unraveled item is destroyed. "

    "Unraveling a magic item requires minimal skill. However, higher skill improves the quality of the ingredients obtained."

    "Gargoyles receive an enhance bonus for 100+ Imbuing skill (i.e., similar to the 100+ Blacksmithing skill enhance bonus)."

    So, yeah, it could work like what you said.


    Harb: I can't be sure on the damage conversion, but I think it was mentioned that it's a 100% intensity property too.
     
  38. Aurelius

    Aurelius Babbling Loonie
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    Much as I like the idea of extending crafting, and making some of the more senseless 'random' items into something useful, I'm not sure at all about the likely impact of imbuing - partly because, as mentioned by Tina,

    Reading through that, I still get the impression that a 'skilled' player with loot dropped artifacts will still have at least a slight advantage against a player of equal 'skill' (whatever that means...) who is using imbued equipment - and given the amount of high level loot drops and artifacts there already are, I don't see a reason for a dedicated PvPer to move over to imbued kit. A few will, for the challenge and because it's more fun for them that way, but I doubt it will become the new 'fashion'.

    It's a great idea for RP, gives a purpose to a lot of junk cluttering up bankboxes, adds a toy for us with crafters to experiment with - but impact on the UO 'economy' ? Not sure there will be much at all at the highest price end of the market, and that's the most visibly 'broken' part of the so-called 'economy' of the game. Can't see imbuing on it's own making a dent, unless it's alongside a steep drop in the availability of the artifact/top end loot drops...... and the screams if that hit would probably be deafening! :eek:
     
  39. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    Although limited by the 5 maximum properties on looted items, with imbuing, you can potentially still get 5 max intensity stats that are customized to your needs. That's gonna being extremely useful to me, even if the item takes alot of time to make and will wear out.

    As with runics, my luck with loot isn't that great...even with my gimped out luck suit tamer. Imagine the chances of getting 5 properties that I want, all at max intensities - LRC 20, MR 2, +15 fire, +15 cold, +15 energy.

    The key idea is that even though hard, it's replace-able, and actually requires replacement once it wears out.
     
  40. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    I know I can "probably" unravel the worthless loots I kept in my house over the past (I have around 200 400+ intensity unenhanced stuff) and around 500 300+ intensity) and get a ring with 1/3 15dci 25ep w/ 15 magery with some effort but I can probably make it within 2 months into releasing of the new patch...

    The chance to get a ring as drop with the mods I stated will be harder than hitting super lotto plus...

    It has to roll and win as a "ring" then roll and win 5 properties. Then the first property would have to be Fast Cast 1, then the 2nd property would have to be FCR, then DCI then EP and lastly Magery. After winning all those 5 rolls from the HUGE amount of possible mods availiable on jewleries I would have to also win the "intensity rolls" for FCR (1, 2 or 3 and hit the 3) then the rolls for DCI (1 to 15 and hit the 15), then EP (5 to 25 and win the 25)... the odds of getting such an item as drop is not "realistic", I dont care if you can chain Lady Mel solo and kill 10 lady mels per hour with 2600 luck suit on, it will still probably take you years if EVER (do you expect that you are going to win the lottery before you die) to get that exact ring I need.

    With imbuing you can realistically get the EXACT mods you need on the EXACT slot you want on the EXACT type of item.

    With imbuing a BALANCED Comp Bow w/ Hit Fireball 50, Hit Velocity 50, 30SSI w/ 50DI or 50HLD or 50HCI wouldnt be an EXTREMELY rare item and definately wouldnt cost you 100+ millions gp to get it.

    It will be "pretty easy" to get a SC mage weapon-20 bokuto (or any weapon of YOUR CHOICE) with 50 Hit Fireball and 15 dci...

    Assuming you can pre-powder a weapon to 255/255 before the imbuing process and get a dream weapon with 255/255 which will last at least a few months of constant PvP (or years for a mage weapon) and an indentical replacment can be created with little effort... you really dont think it would affect the economy?

    I think imbuing will definitely drop the crazy price tag on certain desirable items FOR GOOD. Just open your eyes and THINK about it.
     
  41. SUPRsalad

    SUPRsalad Guest

    now thats the spirit. mage weaps that are usuable in pvp, i.e. dci 15, shouldn't be too hard to come by. If you can get it to 255 dur. before you start the process, I would think as a mage, you won't destroy the item very quickly. I would deffinately be thinking about using a weapon like this sTRICTLY for pvp, and carrying another for spawning.

    I can hardly friggin wait.
     
  42. Diggity

    Diggity Guest

    Pretty much agree with Harlequin's post here, particularly with respect to low end runics and 1/2 high intensity "good" property looted items providing a head start on createing the uber imbued item. Looks like you may have missed Leurocian's follow up comments in http://vboards.stratics.com/showthread.php?p=1137327#post1137327

    particularly post #39 provides some good update info.

    From what I can tell, imbuing weapons is limited to 5 properties vs a val runic crafted 5 props + recipe bonus + di bonus. Eg, an exceptional valorite mage rune blade will always have fc1 + 40 di + 5 possible. Assuming you want fc1, that means the crafted rune blade can have up to 6.4 properties and will not break.

    Imbuing armor is unclear how base resists are going to be covered. With a runic kit, you can make exceptional pieces with overall 7.5 total properties (I am thinking 38 resists for barb leather + 5 100% properties) If an imbued piece gets base resists (1 property) + can add 5 more, you can make a 6 total property imbued armor piece.

    Imbueing jewelry is where I see the biggest potential game changer. Since there are no runics to craft jewelry and since imbued jewelry may not break, imbued jewelry only competes with artifacts. The ornie, crystalline, ring of the vile are very good pieces, particularly faction versions. However it is easy enough to swap jewels in kr so that having special purpose sets of +skill or other jewels will be possible with imbueing.

    I'm looking forward to imbuing and don't think it will hurt the economy any more than it already is. I think imbued items availability will help to level the playing field and I can see a huge demand for imbued items. How much this actually affects the economy really will depend on success/failure rates for imbuing/unraveling and that is still unknown.