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Would you like to see Trammel go?

Discussion in 'UHall' started by hawkeye_pike, Sep 8, 2008.

?

Would you like to see Trammel go?

  1. Yes, Trammel should be abolished!

    69 vote(s)
    30.1%
  2. No, most parts of the land should be PK-free!

    160 vote(s)
    69.9%
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  1. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    About 8 years ago, Britannia was split up into Trammel and Felucca. This was done due to massive complaints from the player base about "antisocial" behavior of certain players (PKs).

    Many think that this change destroyed the communities and took the challenge out of the game. Others actually prefer to play peacefully with a safe Trammel ruleset.

    Would you like to see Trammel ruleset go for good, and modified Felucca rules to be applied to every landmass and facet? Please also consider the following quote:

    "Hate is good. This is because conflict drives the formation of social bonds and thus of communities. It is an engine that brings players closer together."

    Edit: I'm not talking about abolishing the Trammel landmass. Just Felucca ruleset applied to it. (Except someone comes up with an extraordinary brilliant idea to merge Trammel and Felucca landmasses without losing player houses, which I seriously doubt.)
     
  2. Lord Sir Scott

    Lord Sir Scott Lore Keeper
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    If i voted yes, what do you think should happen to all the houses and EM history,Seer towers Ect that are in trammel?
     
  3. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    I'm not talking about abolishing the Trammel landmass. Just Felucca ruleset applied to it. (Except someone comes up with an extraordinarily brilliant idea to merge Trammel and Felucca without losing player houses, which I seriously doubt.)
     
  4. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest


    your going to loose this one soooo badly lmao
    your better to fight to get rid of fel. than tram.
    maybe even tokuno.
    but have fun with this non sence.
     
  5. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    no way
    i don't care to have to 'watch my back' every moment i am playing.
     
  6. Do you think honestly this thread will be anything but a troll fest?

    Without the introduction of Trammel, UO wouldn't be here today. I'm not going to argue that point with anyone. Even though some will disagree with that no matter what evidence is shown to prove otherwise, it's the truth.
     
  7. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    let me re-word this for you so it works for magority of the playerbase..

    I'm not talking about abolishing the Felucca landmass. (Except someone comes up with an extraordinarily brilliant idea to merge Trammel and Felucca without losing player houses, which I seriously doubt.) and remove Felucca ruleset.

    that sounds soooo much better.
    pvp not PK in arena's/designated area's(champs area's) only.
     
  8. Jagerstadt

    Jagerstadt Journeyman
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    EA did abolish Trammel...and they called their shiny new toy Siege Perilous.
     
  9. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Let this be a referendum on Felucca, if it is the lower / LOSER then remove Fel Rules from UO.

    Let this be a referendum on where/how YOUR UO TAX DOLLARS ARE SPENT.
     
  10. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
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    No, it wasn't meant as a troll fest, but a serious question. I like Trammel myself, I have to worry about much less in game. But you have to admit that the communities haven't really been flourishing. And somehow I think that the players need kindof an enemy to stick together. Many players are soloing and going their own ways nowadays. It is just a thought...
     
  11. THP

    THP Stratics Legend
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    Yes hawkeye just go play Siege..sorted
     
  12. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    "Give me victims!!!!"

    Sad.

    -Galen's player
     
  13. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
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    No. If I want antisocialism and hate, I'd go to fel. or Seige, or shut off the game and go to the westside.

    Btw, your opinion on hate is way off base. Hate drives antisocialism, as well as corrupts the soul, even in a game such as UO. For it takes the players mind to think and act when pressing keys, moving a mouse, and making choices.

    Also, having played an NES version of UO eons ago, well before the online game, Trammel was around......

    If they made Fel. LOOK somewhat more appealing as opposed to the yuck they have today, maybe I'd frequent it more than I do.

    Later
     
  14. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    Please consider,very carefully, the quote that comes at the very top of Ralph's page:

    Ralph's vision would work well, as long as the same result of a society hating tyranny, and evil, could be employed...but it can't in a Virtual World, like this, where people pay to play it.

    There is absolutely no such thing as player justice in UO, and there never has been. Justice in the "Wild West" came at the end of a pistol, or a rope, and the bad guy didn't rezz, and go back to killing innocents. Justice in wars come at the end of battles where the victors walk upright (those who survived), and the losers are horizontal, and dead...they can't rezz, and come back with 8 friends to WTFPWN you.

    In these cases, justice gets served, and the end result cannot be undone. In UO, the Bad Guys just Rezz, and are back in mere minutes. That is hardly justice, and all it does is help people hate the Game so much, that they quit playing it. It may be good for Ralph's vision, but it isn't good for the game, in reality.:scholar:

    Don't forget...Communism, in Theory, was awesome. In practice, however...not so good.

    Very few people (very few) want to be attacked while they are mining, or when they are already fighting a monster, or stolen from in these cases...very few indeed.

    Some love the thrill of having 7 people kill them when they are recalling to their house. Some people love to have 4 people kill them when they are fighting two dragons, a wyvern, and a drake.:coco:

    For those few (and they are very few), Felucca lives.

    And there are those that love unfettered PvP :gun:(there are more of these, for sure), but even still, the people that KNOW where the action is, in the game, has NEVER devoted resources, in terms of new places to go, and when you apply real logic as to the whys of it all, the answer is clear.

    For the rest, there are all of the other landmasses, where Reds (PKs) just can't go.

    I disagree vehemently with HOW they did the split...it was moronic. They should have made completely different servers. But I am VERY glad they did it. And I, for one, firmly believe it should stay split, for sure.
     
  15. I voted no because there are more people that would cry about all Fel rather than the other way around. Personally I would love most of the lands be set to Fel rule set.
     
  16. kelmo

    kelmo Old and in the way
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    *shakes head* Hawkeye... Why?
     
  17. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    The easiest answer is a Hybrid

    Current Felucca gets turned into a pre-AoS land.. No insurance, reds in town, possible restriction on equipment or stats.. ect ect.

    Current Trammel gets turned into a present-day ruleset of Felucca.. Guard safe-zones, no reds in town, item insurance, stealth archers everywhere..

    Current Ils/Malas/Tokuno stays the same.. as the non-pvp land.

    Makes 3 different levels.

    *waves hands*

    Discuss!
     
  18. Devil_Woman

    Devil_Woman Guest

    You can change the appearance of Felucca by going into your uo.cfg file and turning Desolation off and TreeCanopies on.
     
  19. I have mixed feelings. The survey won't be truly accurate with just yes and no.

    I like felluca due to the lack of protection. Its hard to determine when or where you could be ambushed, attacked or raided (unless at spawns obviously)

    Out of felluca, I get a larger sense of adventure due to the fact I'm trolling in land I could be killed at any moment. If only PvPers had the same level of respect older ones had. If the game wasn't driven 90% item based, I would totally agree to have all fellucca rule set.

    Out of trammel, you get the security over fellucca (duh). It doubles the landmass and gives players options (protection vs risk/danger). All of my houses are in trammel, although I do visit fel occassionaly.

    In my opinion, there are no real felluccans anymore except for Siege/Mugen players who have my upmost respect. Its the closest thing to old school this game has left.

    If I had the game my way, I would rather scrap the current UO and start on a UO2 project with a land ruleset overhaul. Since I don't have the money to reimburse the company and the technology, no ones going to be seeing that out of me.

    As for the simple yes/no answer to your question. I would have to answer no.
     
  20. Blesh

    Blesh Sage
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    go. play. siege.
     
  21. Chad Sexington

    Chad Sexington Lore Master
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    This is the correct answer.

    :scholar:
     
  22. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Why?????? There was a reason Trammel was invented. There is a reason why it is more populated than Felucca.
     
  23. EnigmaMaitreya

    EnigmaMaitreya Crazed Zealot
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    Apparently Feluccans do NOT AGREE with you.

    I say again let this be a straight up / down referendum on Felucca Rules.

    If it LOSES then remove the rule set from UO.

    I mean after all this poll is a Referendum on the Trammel Rule Set with the intent of REMOVING the Trammel Rule Set.

    Let it be a referendum ON HOW YOU WANT YOUR UO TAX DOLLARS (aka subscription dollars) TO BE SPENT.
     
  24. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    Clean it up a bit..

    Go. ROT. Siege.
     
  25. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    No a Non-PvP area of the game is good for UO as a whole. Do I agree it being limited to blues, no...but PvP is only 1 of many choices a player can make in playstyle. Obviously Non-PvP is more popular, instead of trying to get rid of Trammel, they need to find effective ways to manage PvP so more players can experiment with it, become involved with it, without the select handful of dominate guilds/players completely ruining the experience for those testing the waters....How to do this? Allow Reds in Trammel ruleset areas so they can join guilds that don't PvP as a guild, but have members interested in it. They can teach, they can help people learn the techniques and skills needed to PvP. End result..a much richer diverse PvP experience in Fel. I know many guilds that are not anti-PvP but the members that are interested in it don't because it would mean removal from the guild if they went red.
     
  26. dielock

    dielock Guest

    This question has been posed many times in the past. Fel rule set has never won this one. Not even close. Why do you think Tram came about? It was the constant PK'ing that went on.
    A majority of us just want to play our game our way and not be constantly harassed by some clown who thinks he is tough behind his pixels.
    We got tired of endless hours of mining and lumber jacking just to have it all taken away from us by some joker too lazy to gather resources.

    Tram came about because people were leaving unless something was done about all the greifing and unwanted PK'ing.

    I vote no to the removal of Tram. On the same note, Fel should stay too or PVP should be 100% consentual.

    You play your way and I'll play mine. And how or why I play my game is not of your concern.
     
  27. I first played pre-Tram on Pac and Atl. When Tram came into being it was implemented incorrectly - even for proponents of the change. However, I had already learned that PvP - with or without my consent to fight - was not my cup of tea.

    Apply Fel ruleset to what is now not a Fel ruleset is likely to cost EA more customers ... perhaps loss of the game. Being the black/white person I am why not eliminate the rukleset that is underpopulated, Fel. So I vote Fel ruleset gets replaced with a modified Tram set.

    Okay with you? Pffft. Of course not! So what would make you think your idea is okay with me?
     
  28. Kiminality

    Kiminality Guest

    I voted "Yes"...
    Not because I want to see Trammel gone, but the anti-trammel folk are losing this vote so badly, I feel sorry for them ;)
     
  29. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    I think it'd be better if they somehow managed to collapse a few shards together if the ruleset were applied. One common fel ruleset would work better with a larger community


    It wasn't that bad before tram. The danger was exciting and dying wasn't that bad, you didnt' have to crunch numbers to play. (ie resists, mods, etc..)



    It was a lot of fun too, especially server down wars


    I say take off wep insurance (cept for the few bless deeds out there)





    I never was bothered by tram except for the player base being split. My end gamer was pub 16


    I'd love to see a prepub 16 ruleset somehow meshed with a lot of the newer things on a new shard like seige 2 kinda
     
  30. Setnaffa

    Setnaffa Certifiable
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    Not enough choices. I wouldn't want Trammel to go, but I think there should be equal parts under the Trammel and Felucca rulesets.
     
  31. Aboo

    Aboo Guest

    Quite honestly I had a rough weekend so maybe I am a bit slow but I am totally confused by what you are trying to say to me in your response.

    Let me put it a bit less confusing to you. If there had not been a Trammel I would have been gone a LONG time ago and I would not have a 11 year account and a 10 year account.

    If there comes a time where the Felucca ruleset is applied to Trammel I will be gone. I know many people who would feel the same.

    If you have to apply a ruleset, apply Trammel to Felucca so it will become populated again. All those who wish to play with the Felucca ruleset can go to SP. If you don't like this idea, that is how people who play on Trammel feel about this ridiculous suggestion that was originally posted.
     
  32. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
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    One of the Laws of Online World Design. I personally like the first one:

    "Any general law about virtual worlds should be read as a challenge rather than as a guideline. You'll learn more from attacking it than from accepting it."

    Many people believe the mutual defense theory that communities and player towns formed for the common defense. Live together or die alone and all that junk. While there is some merit to the idea, I would argue that it alone won't create strong communities for the very simple reason that there is no way to win. Since we are quoting Koster:

    "Someday we WILL be able to hand over the reins of policing to players. But right now, neither players nor developers are ready. I can't tell you how much I wish that in UO we had found a way to make the players able to do this, actually able to win against the bad guys--because I do regard those grief players and those rampant PKers (be they the "good" ones or the griefy ones) as the bad guys in this virtual world, far more so than the monsters. One of my biggest disappointments in UO is that we never found a way to have the good guys win. "

    If there was a way to bolster a community and eventually be free of pks, I think there might be more merit to the mutual defense theory. However, constant attacks and violence that won't be stopped even by winning individual fights sort of leads to a state of learned helplessness. In such cases, it is easier to just give up. I still ran events in Felucca after the birth of Trammel for years until the constant crap made me give it up.

    I was part of a player town for a lot of years. Trammel did hurt the town a lot, but we managed to carry on until internal strife tore us apart. The ability to kill each other gave the side willing to use that method a way to completely shut down any communication. Communication is another one of those community tools that keeps communities strong.

    There were player towns in Trammel that lasted as long as my old Felucca one. There were some that moved from Felucca to Trammel and are still going strong after years. They may be a bit smaller, but so is the entire player base. Common causes other than defense and threats of attack can keep communities strong.
     
  33. Prince Erik

    Prince Erik Journeyman
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    +1

    -P.E.
     
  34. Cear Dallben Dragon

    Cear Dallben Dragon Babbling Loonie
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    altho its hard to take in. i would like to see more risk in trammel, for the soul purpose of not having to generalize that everyone in fel is going to kick me ass. i spend my life in fel and the chances of meeting a lumberjack and having a good conversation are 0.


    one thing for sure, we need stamina blocks in tram. ie having to push past people. i pray for this daily.
     
  35. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Currently, the results of the poll are 75% in favor of keeping Trammel. If you did the poll game-wide instead of just using Stratics posters, who are much more heavily weighted towards Fellies than the general population is, it would be nowhere near that close.

    -Galen's player
     
  36. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    Not really any need now that Darkfall is coming out. UO is gonna lose a ****load of us oldschool PvPers when Darkfall comes out.

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJSm674ql5s
    Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjFlUa_kJqQ
    Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTwB9LXggGQ
    Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGyXY-_-vaE
    Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQHik5M8Ol0
    Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkXd9nzLnfw (Pwnsome)


    YouTube has serious video degradation, so it doesn't look that good graphically on YouTube. Here's the direct download link of all 6 parts in one movie and HD, it's 680 Megabytes though. http://media.darkfallonline.com/Dark...ay_trailer.zip
    The animations look a little funky on some chars (Easily fixable) and the spell graphics aren't impressive, but they did that to keep the polygon count low so 100vs100 battles would be possible without tons of lag. Still, we expect the spell graphics to get a little better without hurting performance.

    Beta Applications: http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=64329

    Found this kind of funny when i was getting on Forumfall.
    http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=1657321#post1657321
    For some reason that link goes to page 2 of the topic.
     
  37. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    The argument that Trammel killed community is pushed about every time the word is used, but those of us who were here know good and well that communities were dying long before Tram was ever thought of.

    All Trammel did was give players the choice to play the way they wanted, rather than the way a very minor minority of the player base wanted.

    Player communities didn't form because of an enemy, they formed because of common interests, most of them RP in nature.
    The "Enemy" factor caused the creation of PK and Defender guilds, but that hardly qualifies as community since most members wouldn't be able to name more than a handful of their guildmates - the turnover was too high.


    IMO they should have made an SP type shard for those who wanted to keep that game play, and simply converted the other shards completely.
    I suspect it would have saved them in the $millions in the years since in hardware and maintenance of hosting a complete Felucca facet on every shard when 90% of it is empty 24 hours a day.
     
  38. Loqucious

    Loqucious Guest

    I live in Fel, I have had what I think is the largest Fel vendor house on any shard for the last 4 plus years. I think that Fel is without question a much more exciting and fun place to live and play.

    With that said, no I do not think Tram should be gotten rid of. There is simply a large percentage of people who like to live PVP free. I suspect that many of those people are women and that is the LAST group of people I would like to see leave this game.
     
  39. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    well, tired of the whole argument

    gonna watch everyone turn UO into a giant chat room where people crunch numbers on their super cool neon gear and crafted items

    no one dies unless it's a suicide or an npc attack



    that's it. Just people running around decorating houses and chatting UOSIMS will be the first expansion


    I always hated people who were afraid to die in a game, statloss even though it sucked, pretty much kept fel in check because you either didn't care you were red and then the blues would gank you unless you had friends, or you saved those kills for when it was worth it.



    I've already signed up for darkfall beta


    it's not going to be as good as UO used to be though. Most of the people arguing against it, have never even played under the old rulesets, so they could never understand. The people who were around and actually playing from 97-early 2000ish know.


    And one thing I know, half the people that have 8+ year accounts haven't had them the whole time, no matter how they brag. There are people still using accounts I made back when.



    The point is, it's a game. Don't be afraid to die. Don't be afraid to kill, little billy will get over it. That 10 mil item you have isn't real.

    Hmmmm..... how about making a fel ruleset that just takes away insurance WHILE IN FEL? Then if the people who don't like to die or fight pvp can do the tram thing, and the fel folk don't have to be trammeled at all.

    I'm sure without insurance we can all go back to using crafted items no matter how many we lose.


    and a fun factiod for all of you who are voting for trammel. (though most know it already)


    The definition of Trammel (the reason for it's name) is

    Usually, trammels. a hindrance or impediment to free action; restraint: the trammels of custom.

    a fetter or shackle, esp. one used in training a horse to amble.
    –verb (used with object)

    to involve or hold in trammels; restrain.
    to catch or entangle in or as in a net.
     
  40. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
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    True but that name was probably chosen for multiple reasons. It restrained the actions of PKs, and it also by the games story arc restrained Minax's ability to control Britannia.

    But I will agree with you I've said before I wish Insurance would fly out the window once you cross through to Fel. There's no Risk left in Fel at all if Insurance was abolished on that facet, and a 1 blessed Item rule was put in like on Siege that only applied to Fel then it would be awesome.
     
  41. Lore Master

    Lore Master Guest

    yes go play siege. trammel is the best thing that ever happened to UO if they removed tram i would quit and many others would quit too.
     
  42. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    yeah I see no reason why a player shouldn't be able to bless one item. It'd revamp the thief class, and then all you blues can loot the reds again (and viseversa :)

    I'd revamp a disarm thief (sexxxxxyyyyy)
     
  43. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest




    Keep Tram, just keep tram rules in tram, and keep fel rules in fel. simple. Both worlds happy.


    Fel would be more pvp intense, and it would let the trammel and newer players learn pvp through guild fighting and etc...


    But fel has guardzones, houses, and secluded spots (many many many secluded spots) I don't see what everyone is so afraid of.
     
  44. No one is "afraid" of anything.

    The majority of people just prefer not to have anything to do with UO PvP.

    It's not a hard concept to understand. I'm not sure where you're getting this fear thing from.
     
  45. FrejaSP

    FrejaSP Queen of The Outlaws
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    YES but towns would have to be more safe for attack of PK's, not for thieves.

    I also think I would bring back guards at the guard forts and maybe at a few newbie trainings spots.

    There are a few more thing I would changes too.
     
  46. ShadowJack

    ShadowJack Guest

    what I'm saying is.



    Ok read closely


    Tram rulesets..... pretty much the way they are

    Fel rulesets....no insurance, player stealing(via skill use), etc...




    without having to deal with the SP ruleset



    making the Feluccans follow that ruleset is like us trying to make the Trammelites play by fels.




    I think that you would have to put some ps spawns in trammel for the folks

    and put some reward with the risk for fel (besides the pvp action)




    and have the yin with the yang

    seperate facets with seperate rules. pretty simple



    I'd like to see fel be where people ran around fighting with gm (or leg) made arm + weps again. The kind that don't take runics or junk, just made by the crafter from in game materials collected.


    They'd still be open to use the elite gear, but they'd be open to lose it too

    My main agenda is to remove insurance (in fel) and to revamp the thief class again, while upping the use of gm crafted weps and armor
     
  47. Sir Stain

    Sir Stain Guest

    Abolish felucca
     
  48. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    *points to his first post...*
     
  49. Emil Ispep

    Emil Ispep Sage
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    Your not the first person admiring the wonderful grammar...
     
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