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WoW, can this be happening...

Discussion in 'UO Siege Perilous' started by Mook Chessy, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Quote:
    5.5 Consent to Monitor. DURING ITS OPERATION, THE GAME MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH THE GAME. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY "ADDON", "MOD", "HACK", "TRAINER", OR "CHEAT" THAT IN EA'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (I) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE: (II) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE GAME INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND /OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY EA: OR (III) INTERCEPTS, "MINES", OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE GAME. IN THE EVENT THAT THE GAME DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, THE GAME MAY (A) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO EA, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND /OR (B) EA MAY EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.



    I just read this over on Uhall, can anyone on Siege that is participating in the Beta confirm?
     
  2. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
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    There is a NDA in place for Beta testing...la
     
  3. Troll The T Hunter

    Troll The T Hunter Seasoned Veteran
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    this wouldn't be the only game to do this.
     
  4. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Good - hopefully this will help prevent people from cheating - it really is the only way to do it.

    I've also always wondered something. Lets say program X is considered an "unauthorized third party program", however I was the original author of program X. Therefore, it is not a "third party program" since I wrote it. Therefore, is it legal for me and me only? Just one of those random thoughts when you have nothing better to think about...
     
  5. Rykus

    Rykus Guest

    I hope they are very aggressive with this kinda stuff, and I really don't have any privacy concerns with this kind of RAM scanning. If someone is really THAT concerned with their private data being compromised by this kind of scanning, then they really need to focus that energy into securing it by using local disk/volume encryption, and making sure they use an encrypted repository for their passwords like Firefox provides (when using the master password feature). FREE products like AxCrypt, and TrueCrypt.

    I personally believe that this is the least of someone's concerns, and that this kind of RAM scanning will be scrutinized by some very bright individuals, who will be able to ascertain the level of nefarious activity being carried out by this kind of software. Failure to protect your own arse adequately leaves you exposed to many more threats than what EA will put into a video game to reduce/eliminate cheating.
     
  6. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    NDA isn't involved, that document is available for all to read on the beta signup page on the SA page.

    https://betacenter.eamythic.com/UOSA/betaTestAgreement.php

    I think most people are perfectly happy with this idea. It was the fact that Punkbuster not only scanned the hard drive, but the wording of their EULA gave them the right to look at any file you had on there that put people off that. Scanning RAM is acceptable, I've not seen any post object to it as yet.
     
  7. Calyip

    Calyip Guest

    I have never been someone to cry hacker. There were a few cases after AOS first came out where hacks were big, but Siege has no idea how bad it really is. I dare any of you to log onto Atlantic and run around for 5 minutes, you will be amazed. This is something badly needed.
     
  8. Rykus

    Rykus Guest

    I think the key is 'non-authorized' software. If you write a program that gives you an advantage in some way, but you NEVER release it, or tell anyone about it, then there is no way for a scanner, be it a RAM scanner, or disk scanner, to know about this nefarious software. They will need to know what to look for before they are able to find it.

    If they take a different approach, and are able to detect an application that is actively manipulating the code as it executes in memory, like that one program that makes playing UO Easy, then that would possibly be capable of detecting the rogue application. If this same application only manipulated the data stream between the UO client, and the game servers, like in the case of UOA, then it would be MUCH more difficult to detect/intercept. An obvious solution would be to encrypt the data stream between the client/server, but there would be a significant amount of overhead in terms of processing power required on both ends, as well as increased latency on the gamer's end. Do-able, yes. Feasible, doubtful.
     
  9. Mr.StinkyPants

    Mr.StinkyPants Slightly Crazed
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    well i do have a problem with my rights being violated but i do support the burning down houses and banning of cheaters, if there where only away to detect 3rd party programs without going through my ram id be more than happy.....if only they could build a game that was unable to support any kind of third party program that would work for me...but we all no thats pretty much impossable at least very difficult to keep up with programmers that got nothing better to do than hack games...
     
  10. shipwrek

    shipwrek Guest

    Great if it would work.. my money is on the odds it will cause more problems than it prevents.

    Yay Mickysoft.
     
  11. They didn't cancel Punkbuster because people objected. They cancelled Punkbuster because they'd have to pay for it.
     
  12. Kael

    Kael Certifiable
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    if it would allow people to fight without the cry of hacker or speed hack going out...im completely all for it
     
  13. Petra Fyde

    Petra Fyde Peerless Chatterbox
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    Merchant: The reason given by EA was that there was a problem with Punkbuster's EULA.

    Kael: No it won't do that. Nothing can. There will always be some people who's belief in their own superiority won't allow them to admit that they were beaten fairly, or that their opponent knows more about the game's legitimate mechanics than them. They'll always allege that their opponent has found some way to cheat, to 'get around' the cheat detection system, whatever it may be.
     
  14. Hera - Siege

    Hera - Siege Lore Master
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    F+ for 'third party' comprehension: An individual or an organization outside of the individual agency that provides labour or services.

    In this case EA [the individual agency that provides labour or services] and you [An individual outside EA]. You're your own third party.

    Just because you wrote your haXXor doesn't mean that it's legal to use and can't be enforced.
     
  15. Hera - Siege

    Hera - Siege Lore Master
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    QFT - If you're stupid enough to have UO open, and be editting your tax documents at the same time, then you're most likely stupid enough to have already downloaded and installed a key-logger, so no harm, no foul.

    Assuming you're playing UO the only other things in ram might be UOA, UOAM, Vent, ICQ, Web Browser. That's not sensitive data unless yet again you're logging in to check your bank account while playing UO, but that's easily countered with some common sense.
     
  16. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    I'm not a lawyer so I could be wrong here but:

    I disagree with your interpretation and/or direct defiinition of third party because there are always two parties to a transaction and the definition you gave basically states the one providing the service is one of the parties but the one receiving the service is not, they are considered a third party.

    Some definitions I got from googling:

    A separate individual or organization other than the two principals involved.

    One other than the principals involved in a transaction.

    Therefore a third party is someone ELSE other than the two parties involved in a transaction. So the two parties in this case involved in the transaction are 1. EA providing the service and 2. Myself purchasing the service. Therefore I am not a third-party. So if I am not a third party, and I create a program that is not explicitally authorized by EA, is it not against the TOS?
     
  17. Troll The T Hunter

    Troll The T Hunter Seasoned Veteran
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    "Therefore a third party is someone ELSE other than the two parties involved in a transaction. So the two parties in this case involved in the transaction are 1. EA providing the service and 2. Myself purchasing the service. Therefore I am not a third-party. So if I am not a third party, and I create a program that is not explicitally authorized by EA, is it not against the TOS?"

    I think your taking the word third party to literal. What would you say if they worded it as "no unapproved program from EA may be used in conjunction with UO"? (I'm pretty sure they do say that somewhere) Fairly easy to reword it but I'm sure if you dig deep enough they have their tails covered. I think you know what the spirit of what they are saying is. So they say no third party programs or those which are not approved by EA may be used in conjunction with UO would pretty much cover it. I'm not a lawyer, I get the feeling your not a lawyer either, but UO has hired lawyers and I highly doubt they have over looked that point.

    Also judges look at intent. look at this lame lawsuit i saw this morning

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfmoms/detail?entry_id=41422&tsp=1

    Some lady claimed she thought crunch berries were real berries and sued the manufacture. Does it say that crunch berries are not real berries on the box? The judge threw the case out of court.
     
  18. Skylark SP

    Skylark SP Available Storage: 0
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    Your creation of software that interfaces with or manipulates UO would have nothing to do with you being a direct party to receiving a service from EA. In this case you would be a THIRD PARTY developer of a program that interfaces or manipulates UO. If EA hired or subcontracted with you to create the program, you would not be a third party...but any such arrangement would still have nothing to do with your relationship to them as a game subscriber.

    -Skylark
     
  19. Mook Chessy

    Mook Chessy Certifiable
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    Petra, I agree with you but...
    Uo does have certain players that just do things that can't happen within normal game play.

    You can't cast 7th level spells on a full run (seen many times)

    You should mover slower when on foot then mounted (some move just as fast)

    And you should have to actually hit all the spells in your combo, not a one key script.

    Not to mention all of the crafters that script their resources.

    I guess what I am saying is after over 10 years of UO I can spot (not 100% of the time) a cheater.

    My reason for the post is I hope that this will end all of the stuff that has been in UO for the last 8 years.
     
  20. Yes, the problem was that the end user license agreement only applied to end users and EA wasn't going to pay for us to be end users.
     
  21. T'Challa

    T'Challa Certifiable
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    Both the reason given by EA and the assumption made by MM are incorrect.

    *hint* Look at Germany's privacy laws, then come on back and talk about it.
     
  22. Do you really think the dozen or so Germans who play UO had that kind of impact? This game caters to North Americans and Asians. When you get a UO.com site in German, get back to me.

    EA is cheap. Punkbuster costs money. End of story.
     
  23. T'Challa

    T'Challa Certifiable
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    Whatever dude. Straight from the horse's mouth to you I bring it.

    Believe what you want in your little bubble of a world.
     
  24. I tell you what...google Electronic Arts/Punkbuster.

    You will see that a lot of EA games are using Punkbuster. Are you telling me no Germans play Crysis or Battlefield or Medal of Honor etc...?????

    You know why those games have Punkbuster? Because they make money. You know why UO doesn't have Punkbuster? Because the cost/benefit didn't make sense.

    Duh!
     
  25. Bruin

    Bruin Guest

    Now that makes sense to me.
     
  26. N49ATV

    N49ATV Slightly Crazed
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    Depending on how the scanning is done, it may or may not work. I know the last time they talked about scanning to see what local processes were running (pub 13-15 area), the programs that hacked were changed to display other common names. Such as SVCHOST etc.

    I have no issue with this, as im never doing any banking etc, when logged on to UO. Ill have nothing open in my ram that would put me, my life, or account at risk.

    *edit*

    This could be a very good thing for UO. Since UO at the moment is a dead game. Its dying for sure, so the odds of anyone putting in added time and effort to recode certain programs to get around this scanning. Is very accute. So it may help overall game play.
     
  27. Lorddog

    Lorddog Crazed Zealot
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    I saw somewhere that the higher dex you have the faster you can run to the point the at max dex you can run almost as fast as mounted.

    fof or somewhere (about 2 months ago)

    Lorddog