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Wow this Joat nerf is really bad

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Smokin, Feb 20, 2010.

  1. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Holy this just destroyed my template completely, I guess they need to make it so Chiv and Necro are on the list and Tactics even. They both use spells that require a weapon so why aren't they on the list.
     
  2. Stupid Miner

    Stupid Miner Guest

    Hm, this might not apply to you directly, but perhaps Tactics could count with a condition:

    Tactics Bonus (minimum 0) = Tactics - Bushido or Ninjitsu (whichever is higher)

    So "pure" fighters could get a mana reduction, and it wouldn't hurt Samurai or Ninjas

    and perhaps also:

    Anatomy Bonus (minimum 0) = Anatomy/2 - Bushido or Ninjitsu (whichever is higher)
     
  3. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    How would it hurt Samuria or Ninjas anyways. They get the bonus already and you can only get some much of a bonus. So not really sure how it would hurt them.
     
  4. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Yes, but by adding Tactics to the list without any other things done, it would bring back the temp that this "nerf" was aimed at (imho) straight back.

    120 archery
    120 tact
    120 anat
    120 resist
    100 healing
    80 ninjitsu
    60 chiv

    Basic PvP archer template, give or take some ninjitsu/healing/chiv. Now it would again be 300 total.

    The point of mana reduction thing was to help temps that invest Extra skillpoints to fighting skills. I don't see tactics being Extra skill, it's a must, and that's why I don't see it should be added to the list. But maybe skills like necromancy could be considered, dunno.
     
  5. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Well they have to put Necro and Chiv in because that is completely investing skill points. Specially since stealth is one not to mention Bushido and Ninja.
     
  6. How much has this JOAT nerf helped to balance the overpowered archer template, really?

    Does this JOAT nerf make enough of a difference? Or does more need to be done to reduce/arrest overpowered archers? (what's the % of pvp archers directly affected by this JOAT nerf?)

    Should the Devs be looking at some other area to balance archery pvp?
     
  7. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    Ironically, the balanced property in archery helps make it imbalanced.
     
  8. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Not sure about PVP but it has screwed PVM templates.
     
  9. Saint of Killers

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    Oh, but the "mage wep" free melee skill if you invest magery (OMG DON'T MAKE ME PUT MAGERY ON MY MAGE...HOW UNFAIR!!) is totally cool with you right? lol

    The only archers nerfed heavily by JOAT are archer/tamers & pure archers. Archer/dread mare tamers were too strong (and yes I used one) & pures oh well. Maybe this is EA's way of saying stop playing the same boring pure template year in year out. Now it's time for a pure mage nerf! :)
     
  10. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Well if archers were the problem maybe they should have just taken archer off.
     
  11. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Which PvM temps you think got screwed?

    I can figure out many PvM temps which went to 200-300 area, but that's only 5 extra mana, wouldnt call em screwed.
     
  12. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Well a necro chiv resists tact heal anat and weapon skill one. Basically ones that do not use parry or Bush.
     
  13. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    It was a good fix and should be left alone. It balanced a lot of templates that didn't invest the real skill points from the fighting skills. The bonus was never meant to mooch off free skill points that were never there to begin with.

    Chiv and Necro both fall into the magic skills not the fighting skills so it would be unfair to put those in the list and not magery/weave/mystic.


    There's plenty of skills that have been added in the past 5 years to pick and chose from on that list to get the bonus back especially for PvM.
     
  14. Splup

    Splup Guest

    Ohh yeah, that one got hit more badly. Thou you only need 60 chiv so maybe you could try fitting 80 bush there and get honor damage bonus and -5 specials.

    Btw. I'm working on bushnecro, anyone has idea of how much resisting spells you need to not get manavamped to 0 mana from like 70 mana? I mean it's ok as long as I stay at like 10 more or over.
     
  15. Black Majick

    Black Majick Certifiable
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    Agree 100%!!!!
     
  16. Tinsil

    Tinsil Guest

    Either way the fact is that over the years now Archery's damage has been significantly increased due to the availability of items, while Magery damaged remains capped at 15% SDI in PVP for items.

    Raising this cap by 15% more, or reducing Archery damage in pvp would go a long ways.. And melee damage could use a slight buff as well.
     
  17. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Reducing archery damage would be a good fix IMO.
     
  18. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
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    Yeah, based on what others I respect have told me, this change has been a much bigger deal than I thought it would be. While I argued against the changeI didn't think it'd be too great a matter either.

    Seems I was wrong.

    What really puzzled me at the time the change was proposed, and continues to puzzle me, is people saying it would hurt archers more...From what I have been told by people I respect it's hurt other fighters way more than archers.

    -Galen's player
     
  19. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I wonder who nailed that one on the head when this change was announced?
     
  20. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I don't see how 5 mana to a special move can destroy a template, and as I said in the last thread, the difference is small if you just have 40 lmc. Put that on your suit and you wont be "Destroyed" anymore. You're over reacting.
     
  21. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    a special move should not require any special 'thought', it would be trained and second nature just as other tactics are. if anything it would require way more dex to produce say a whirlwind attack than mana ... makes no sense what so ever. now if you're talking about disarm, well then that's wrestling related i would hope and that means mage so taking mana for that special move might make sense ? how using a two handed ornate axe allows one to disarm another is beyond me...
     
  22. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Why are you replying to me? I'm saying the OP is over-reacting. Also, you're thinking stamina, not dex, nothing costs attributes, except that one quest which everyone got around by making a throw away character anyway. It should cost both, and I said nothing about what you're saying in my original post, which confuses me on why you're trying to discuss this with me as it has very little relevance.
     
  23. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    ohhhhhhhh i see said the blind man to his three deaf daughters :popcorn:
     
  24. Ever have a 60 pound axe hit you on the wristbone or elbow? Think it might make you drop whatever it is you're holding? :gee:
     
  25. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    hmmm lol ok i can see that but what prevents other axe weapons from doing that,or other large weapons ? I was beginning to think there was a small hook on the end of the ornate axe that grabbed the weapon out of your hands lol.
     
  26. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Disarm shouldn't be a special move on any weapon. It should have been left a wrestle only special.
     
  27. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    this ^

    i have an old mage temp that still has tactics, mace and wrestle. i dig the disarm big time, you think i should give up the mace and tactics for parry and bump the rest to 120?
    magery 110
    eval 110
    med 100
    tact 100
    mace 100
    resist 100
    wrest 100 102str/17dex/129 int
     
  28. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    The true intention of this change has NOT been announced by the devs other than to say that the JoAt skill points counting towards the special move mana cost discount "was a bug."

    If in fact their intention was to tone down archer special moves, then it was a massive fail. The majority of the archer templates out there still qualify for at least the -5 and as Konge stated, with 40% LMC the mana cost difference is minimal. Bushwacker and ninja archers most still qualify for the -10 thus didn't even blink at this change.

    Whether it was a bug or not, pure warriors and paladins took the brunt of this change, not PvP archers. The real fix was to increase moving shot's mana cost. It makes no sense that such a powerful special has one of the lowest mana cost.
     
  29. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I had a good tank mage once too. I adapted to SC mage weapons though and picked up the lost skill pts on jewls. I kept tactics for the increased damage but did indeed put on parry and DCI to offset the age of archers.
     
  30. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    This joat change is still hitting the majority of the archers. The difference of 5 mana to moving shot is actually more than people think.

    Instead of 3/6/6/6 mana cost it became 6/12/12/12 or 9/18/18/18.
    A good equipment archer with med can regen about 2 mana per sec at 1.5s firing rate, 2 moving shots means 4 mana regened.
    This means at -10 mana human archer could spam out at least 30 moving shot at -5 mana it will be around 10 and at no mana discount its about 5.

    Moving shot has always been one of the most ******** special move since the intro of specials. And I agree most pvp archers still quality -5 regardless. The gimp archers and the stupid disarm archers still have their -10.

    I too agree they should've increased mana cost on moving shots. However judging by the current pvp situation and the effectiveness of a mage versus a dexer, this joat change is the 2nd best option other than simply fix or increase the mana cost on ******** specials (moving shot).

    Do you know how much mages would KILL for having a spell castable on the run that will "miss" 50% of the time? And even a running cast fireball or lighting will be nice considering archer moving shot can hit well over FLAME STRIKE dmg without needing to curse first.
     
  31. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Template is still not destroyed, and you quoted the part about 40 LMC but you didn't include those in your example.
     
  32. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Do you even read what you reply to? Again, nothing you say replies to anything you quoted.

    I think you're the blind one.
     
  33. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
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    If you know what u were talking about you will know that the numbers i have included the 40lmc.

    2nd i have never said its tempplate breaking change and i also clearly stated that its the next best option that dev picked.

    Seems like you got so defensive and thinks quoting means someone is against your point of view period. Why would i be against this change yet commenting it being the "2nd best thing dev could do?"
     
  34. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Well for the template I stated above and I run with 29% to 39% LMC which gives me - 8 to -11 mana. My specials start at 30 mana cost. This drops me down to 19 to 22 for the first one and 38 to 44 for the ones I would do fast. I run also with 90 mana and I see a big effectiveness drop even in PVM. As for being destroyed, well I am not being destroyed but my template is. I want to know what template you are using to see what your mana cost are.

    Someone stated something about Chiv and Necro being magic skills yes in a way they are but so are Bush and Ninja and Stealth is a Thief skill. But Chiv and Necro are meant to be combined with weapons they even have spells that can only be cast with weapons in your hands. They are unlike magery so magery does not count. I could see spellweaving in the list because it too compliments a warrior and has a spell with a weapon too.
     
  35. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    I said in the other thread , that you cast chiv and necro, but bushi and ninja you toggle, just like special moves, and stealth is used for a special move, and again, 5 mana does not destroy templates, your still over reacting
     
  36. Konge

    Konge Lore Master
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    Because no one an ever just quickly read a post and make a mistake
     
  37. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    I did not lose 5 mana I lost 10 so how am I over reacting. As for the casting and toggling whats the big deal and not all the spells from Bushido/Ninja are toggled. If you use confidence its a spell its not like you can turn it off. Only 3 can be toggled and 3 can not be toggled.
     
  38. Smokin

    Smokin Guest

    Not sure what that means but if your saying I am whining then go some where else and troll. I am sorry for wanting to play a different template then others and not be the same as everyone else.
     
  39. RawHeadRex

    RawHeadRex Slightly Crazed
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    ... wow

    that phrase means, 'oh i see' or 'oh i get it'. sorry for the misunderstanding, didn't mean to upset you Konge.
     
  40. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Yes he did. 6/12/12/12 and/or 9/18/18/18 is indeed factoring in 40% LMC, otherwise it would be 10/20/20/20 or 15/30/30/30.
     
  41. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Chivalry is most definitely a fighting skill. Chivalry enhances everything about a warrior template. With absolutely no points invested into a fighting skill, Chivalry is good for a low skill point travel spell and remove curse. My swordsman before AoS had no problem with most mobs in game except Balrons or Ancient Wyrms. After AoS I had difficulty with many mobs that were previously easy. Dragons ate me for lunch. I dropped lumberjack for chiv and focus and low and behold my warrior was back to his pre AoS capabilities. Chivalry is a warriors skill.
     
  42. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    It's not just 5 mana that was lost. The first special isn't where the biggest loss is, it's in the consecutive specials after the first. Not to mention the fact that many of us did indeed lose 10 mana.

    Mortal, Bleed, AI, Double Strike 30 mana cost per special move:

    12/24/24 (-10 discount + 40% LMC)
    15/30/30 (-5 discount + 40% LMC)
    18/36/36 (0 discount + 40% LMC)

    Since my Paladin went from benefiting from the JoaT -10 mana discount to zero discount, you can clearly see it's way more of a loss than just 5 mana.
     
  43. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    OH, BTW, Stratics your calculator needs to be updated to include Throwing. LOL.
     
  44. flappy6

    flappy6 Sage
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    its the 3 explosion pots doing 35 damage each while your running with a running shot that is messed up not archery
     
  45. Saint of Killers

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    *NEWSFLASH*

    Put parry on your template.

    I know I know..."I shouldn't HAVE to put parry on my pure warrior template"!!

    You need a reality check. Change your template. Adapt with the changes. Enjoy the free ride you had for years from your -10 joat. You're like a guy that got free cable for years, and is angry because they finally turned it off and made him pay for it.
     
  46. Lythos-

    Lythos- Lore Keeper
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    You said it exactly, it enhances everything about a warrior template.

    No it's not a fighting skill. It's basically just magic for warriors.

    Chiv takes tithing or lrc suits and the "spells" can be interupted. This puts it in the magic class with necro/magery/weave and mystic. Yes it's 90% for warriors but it does not classify it for a fighting skill.

    Bush and ninja on the other hand are also fighting suppliments but do not require regs, lrc or tithing which puts them into the fighting skill and not magic based.
     
  47. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    I already put parry on my template. However, that doesn't invalidate any of the opposition's argument to this change.
     
  48. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Simple game mechanics. Any and all of that could be changed on a whim by any dev. They could tomorrow decide to remove tithing or they could decide bushido and/or ninjitsu should use some sort of reagent. They could do whatever they want. One system doesn't necessarily eliminate any possibilities of another.
     
  49. Ezekiel Zane

    Ezekiel Zane Grand Inquisitor
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    Hey, just as you feel the need to pop in here and comment that you agree with the change, I'll continue to oppose it. At the moment, it is what it is. That does not mean the devs won't tweak it again in the future.

    Feel free to preach the goodness and brilliance of the devs on this change all you want. Don't criticize my right to voice my opposition to it. That just makes you a hypocrite.