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Wrestling Gloves

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Peter Tarrant, Jan 5, 2012.

  1. Peter Tarrant

    Peter Tarrant Visitor

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    Cestus.

    Weapon Skill: Wrestling.

    Slot: Weapon or Glove.

    Graphic: Virtue Gauntlets.

    Special Moves: Armor Ignore. Double Strike.

    The point? Allowing wrestlers to be the Boxers and Pankration fighters we associate with the term.
     
  2. Hunters' Moon

    Hunters' Moon Grand Inquisitor
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    I'd love to see it and I have asked for something like this on a few occasions. Every time this has been asked,a pvper has chimed in to say we can't have it because it would "ruin" pvp.
     
  3. Mirt

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    I would change the specials to disarm and paralyzing blow but other then that I think this is a good idea as long as the damage was kept fairly low and the same tactics requirement was needed.
     
  4. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    It's also just a stupid idea. I don't know why you all think boxers or brawlers would be such an awesome char to have. I personally think it would make no sense. Fighting a dragon with a pair of iron knuckles is pretty lame if you ask me.

    As for ruining pvp, yeah it basically would. These gloves would have to be disarmable, which wouldn't make any sense cuz how the hell would you disarm a pair of gloves? Would these gloves have hit spell properties on them (which also wouldn't make much sense and be pretty dumb having fireballs coming out of your gloves) and how fast would they swing? What specs would be on them (the only new specs that I can think of that would make sense for a gloved weapon would be conc blow, mortal, or maybe bleed. All of these are to good of specs for a non disarmable wep, or one that doesn't require tactics). Would they require tactics? A lot of people say they'd want it to require tactics but what does that mean for the current wrestle set up? If wrestle all of a sudden required tactics that would suck and wrestle mages would be gone. Or if they don't require tactics or the weps aren't disarmable wrestle mages would just turn into the OP/gimp temp of the month.

    All in all really not worth it.
     
  5. Mirt

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    Weapon specials require tactics. Tactics is also a determining factor in how often you hit. I don't see why either of these things would change. These would be weapons that you could use and if you want to put in the tactics and not cast as your attempting to use the special I don’t see why that’s really over powering. It sounds like your remembering things from a while back. Most pvp mages run a SC weapon anyway which I should say these should require too if you want to cast spells while wearing them. Its not really all that over powered at all.
     
  6. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    According to some pvpers all changes would 'ruin' pvp, up to and including neon shoe dye.

    I think this would be a good addition. Finally make wrestling a usable skill.
     
  7. pgib

    pgib Guest

    I'm for any addition that expands the way we can effectively play this game. As per ruining pvp, just make it so the damage bonus granted by the gloves doesn't apply when the target is a player (a thing the system already does for a lot of damage outputs) and voilà, problem gone.
     
  8. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    Wrestle specials currently don't require tactics. That's a big point of playing a wrestle mage.
    What people don't seem to get is that wrestling isn't supposed to be a high damage skill like swords, macing, archery, or even fencing. Wrestling is a support skill and supposed to make a temp more defensive.
    You're also mistaken ALL pvp mages use an SC wep I don't see how this is an important detail. Who cares if these gloves would need to be SC if they can't be disarmed, don't require tactics, or have hitspell I say we're better off without them.
    UO has bigger things to worry about.
     
  9. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    Wrestling is a very useful skill. It's just not meant to put out damage. It's a defensive skill that is meant to help keep you alive. I still have a wrestle/archer on sonoma or napa that works completely fine. I hardly use wrestling on him but when I get disarmed I'm glad I have it. You have to actually think about what you do with wrestling you can't just work it into the normal warrior temps which it seems is all you guys wanna do. Make wrestle exactly like swords, macing, fencing, and archery cuz you wanna play a pali or sampire with wrestling cuz it'd look cooler.
     
  10. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    It's also about the specials, tactic requirements, swing speed, and whether or not they can be disarmed.

    Also UO has bigger things to work on in expanding the way people can effectively play the game (such as getting rid of dead shards) or fixing their infinite exploits and glitches.
     
  11. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    So what's wrong with that? Variety is the spice of life.

    Besides, nobody is talking about changing the skill, the OP is suggesting an item that can be used to make wrestling an offensive skill. You want wrestling to work as a defensive skill? Fine, don't use the gloves.
     
  12. old gypsy

    old gypsy Grand Poobah
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    I can picture this becoming hugely popular among the role-playing community. Imagine the pugilist matches! I think the wrestling skill could definitely use a revamp. :)
    _____________________________

    Yes, a "revamp" -- more than just another piece of armor with special properties, aka gloves.
     
  13. Mirt

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    100% agree. Adding new things is great and for this it would qualify as a weapon so it would require tactics. Which for the record it might be a good idea to require to use a special anyway.
     
  14. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    what's wrong with it is that it would mess up the current system of wrestling. Wrestling as an offensive skill would be way overpowered as I've stated numerous times and will repeat again in caps so you can't miss it.

    1)IT WOULDNT MAKE SENSE FOR A WRESTLE WEP TO BE DISARMABLE.
    2)A WRESTLE MAGE WITH A NON DISARMABLE WEP THAT HAS HIT SPELL AND NEW SPECS (WHICH WOULD PROBABLY BE BLEED, CONC BLOW, OR MORTAL) WOULD BE OP GIVEN THE SWINGS IN BETWEEN SPELLS AND THE NON REQUIREMENT OF TACTICS AND THE FACT THAT IT WOULDN'T BE DISARMABLE.
    3) GIVEN UO'S TRACK RECORD THEY DON'T HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO CREATE TWO SEPARATE FORMS OF WRESTLING (ie. THE "DEFENSIVE" KIND THAT ALREADY EXISTS AND THIS NEW "OFFENSIVE' KIND THAT I GUESS YOU WANT TO REQUIRE TACTICS) WITHOUT SERIOUSLY SCREWING UP THE CURRENT SYSTEM FOR AT LEAST A MONTH.
    4) 5 OF THE 6 WEP GROUPS ARE ALREADY OFFENSIVE SKILLS (SWORDS, FENCING, MACING, ARCHERY, THROWING) IT'S GOOD TO HAVE A DEFENSIVE ONE. SORRY THAT YOUR BORED OF THE CURRENT OPTIONS BUT ITS BOUND TO HAPPEN WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GAME GET OVER IT.

    lastly a wrestle temp is just dumb. Role player can already bash each other with their fists or even with clubs and numchuks if they want. Sorry for all you guys that think it would be oh so cool to punch a dragon to death.
     
  15. Martell

    Martell Seasoned Veteran
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    UO has sooooooo many other things that are worth working on other than this. Also are you suggesting that they make only the wrestle weps require tactics and leave people who use a spellbook or shield still not require tactics? Cuz if so given UO's history I seriously doubt they have the know how to make such a system work without seriously messing it up for a good while.
     
  16. Mirt

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    I do understand the desire to avoid a nerf to the pvp wrestle mages I do know that they have spent the points on their skill and I think they should keep it. So in that regard I don't think that it should require tactics. I was unclear before because quiet honestly I thought it should but after further thought I know that isn't right. I will confess that I am a "dexxer monkey" but those wrestle mages still around should get the specials for their points. I think that is fair because they are forgoing the mage weapon and therefore should be rewarded. I also think that it would be nice to code in dismount for them if they have tactics. That would be fun and would diversify mages. That being said I think they could easily code the new weapons because of the UBWS property. As long as you’re actually holding something it would treat it like a melee skill, if your not it’s the old school wrestling. I think it would open up a few more options and that could be fun.
     
  17. Sept

    Sept Journeyman
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    You don't like the idea, you are entitled to feel that way. Please stop replying to every signle post with the same arguement, it's getting old.
     
  18. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    Ok, so now I think you're being deliberately stubborn.

    UO is a fantasy game full of wizards, dragons and people who can come back from the dead as much as they want. So your "it doesn't make sense" arguments go right out the window. We're clearly out of the realm of reality all ready. A pair of removable gloves isn't the crazy leap you're making it out to be.

    More non issues that are easily fixed. Special moves already require tactics, why would this be any different? Besides IF an item like this was added they could make it disarmable or just make it useless as a PvP weapon.

    Who said anything about a new wrestling skill? We're discussing a weapon the OP would like to see added. We wouldn't need a new skill for it. Each use would check your wrestling skill, just like swinging a sword checks your swordsmanship.

    Again, we're not talking about changing a skill at all. So this had zero bearing on the conversation.

    In your opinion a wrestle template is dumb. But going by your logic I could say a PvP template is dumb so we shouldn't devote any more time to things that are used for 'dumb' templates. But I wouldn't do that because I think everyone should enjoy playing the game, not just people who share my particular play style.
     
  19. gunneroforgin

    gunneroforgin Slightly Crazed
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    We seem to have forgotten the Gloves of the Pugilist.
     
  20. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    1) Who associates wrestling with boxing? I sure dont.

    2) What do you mean Weapon OR Glove? Needs to be one or the other for starters. Obviously not well thought out as it pertains to current UO weapon/armor slots. IMO you realized afterwards that it doesnt make sense mechanics-wise so you simply said either :(

    3) Special Moves? why would a piece of armor allow/perform special moves?
    Makes no sense and again would entirely screw up current mechanics that have been in place and tweaked for over 14 years.

    Bottom line is that in UO Wrestling has always been a defense oriented skill. The added specials were a nice addition and work well.
    IMO there is no reason at all to now entirely revamp armor/weapon mechanics to tweak ONE skill that currently works as intended.

    Btw BlackSun there is a difference between making sense real world and making sense as pertains to ingame mechanics.
    Why is it that everytime some cowboy has a crazy idea some people have to say that it can be done solely for the fact that nothing has to make sense?
    THAT makes no sense :)
     
  21. Black Sun

    Black Sun Grand Poobah
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    My point is that if you're going to nitpick over things being unrealistic, it seems to me there are things that are much more unrealistic than being able to pull a pair of gloves off someone.
     
  22. Mirt

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    Have them be a weapon that you would hold, do not have them be armor. These would fit over your armor which isn't how things are in the real world but leather armor never existed in the real world. They would therefore not allow you to hold a spell book or a shield. That would allow it to work and not really change anything people are asking for have this graphic display over your hands instead of the armor under them.
     
  23. Sept

    Sept Journeyman
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    Wrong!
     
  24. Mirt

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    Actually no I am not. What was initially thought in the Renaissance armor from the Romans was actually scale mail that the weather had eroded off statues. This has been gone over and over again and also been showed in the Romans own histories. There were leather jerkins but those were worn under the metal armor like the middle ages arming jacket to lessen the blunt force damage that came from the blows. It actually makes sense if you think about it for the leather to be strong enough to resist anything it would have to be boiled so hard as to be completely inflexible and that would not work for armor at all. The only source that still claims there was leather armor is Osprey which has been widely discredited in historical fields and is targeted primarily to gamers and moddlers who are more interested in appearance then in historical fact. Tactius had some wonderful descriptions of what Roman armor was like in some of his writings if your curious I can try and look them up when I get home.
     
  25. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Lore Master
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    I remember there was once a private server that had Gauntlets that when you landed a unarmed hit with them, it had a chance of knocking your opponent back one or two tiles. Really useful for Mages to keep Warriors away from them.
     
  26. Sept

    Sept Journeyman
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    I will have to disagree, atleat for the time being. Whist I am not a practicing archeaologist I do have BA hons in the dicaplin. I did not specialse in historical archaeology, choosing to focus more on prehistory. I thank you for the references and will look into the points you have put forward.
     
  27. Dante of Magincia

    Dante of Magincia Adventurer

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    :postcount:

    So is fighting a Dragon in a Robe with a Clever. Dawg.
     
  28. Mirt

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    I myself am a military historian. Depending on when you graduated it’s very likely that you were taught at some point that there was leather armor. Now the debate is actually was brigandine armor actually used and if so how widespread its use was. If you’re interested in the prehistory aspect of it there may have been a section that was put in to The Britians, but I can't be sure as it has been a few years since I read that book. I will give that one since it’s a bit closer to your field that Tacitus.
     
  29. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    I am also a serious military historian and I believe that the taunting Frenchman from Monty Python & The Holy Grail wore leather armor so there is no more need for debate on the subject.
     
  30. Mirt

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    :bowdown:
    Now go avay you English Kniiggtss or I vill taunt vous again!​
     
  31. Peter Tarrant

    Peter Tarrant Visitor

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    Yeah, uhm. No.

    There are certain limitations associated with the Classic Client. One of those is whether Weapon Modifiers can be added to a Pair of Gloves. (e.g. Cestii, Brass Knuckles, etc.) Brawling should remain a 'weaponless' talent. It would add an element of danger to those who focus on disarming, only to get their teeth knocked out. But if the code doesn't allow for that, then the Cestus needs to be in the Weapon Slot.

    Thus either and or.

    Careful about assumptions. They are bad for your health.

    Ever hear of a Shield Bash? Expert.
     
  32. Ludes

    Ludes Babbling Loonie
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    I have seen riot gloves with weights added in spots.. and also gloves with spikes on the striking planes. These could roughly be the equivalent of enhanced gloves.

    Obviously it would be difficult to please everyone but I as well would love to see something done with wrestling.. had a wrestler way back but I think I gave him up around Ren.
     
  33. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    No, I have never heard of a Shield Bash in UO. I was talking about game mechanics but you are too obtuse to understand that.

    What kind of person cant understand that some rl archaic items do not translate well into UO?

    If a new idea does not work with game mechanics it simply makes no sense at all no matter how much someone wants it or how many rl examples you can prove.

    Mabe I missed it but where did you explain to us all the exact game mechanics that will allow for gloves to perform specials? Ohh, thats right you didnt. Not only that but you couldnt even figure out if it was gloves or a wep in your scenario lol.

    Dont even get me started on your Brawling/element of danger quote. Talk about a classic example of someone having a 1% fragment of a half-ass idea and then trying to make it fly with absolutely no logic. *shakes head*
     
  34. Mirt

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    I think it should be a balanced two handed weapon that goes in the weapon slot. I think that would fix most of the tricky code issues and make logical sense. Well as much logical sense as we are going to get when there are dragons and magic. I also like the temp ideas it could add to mages. It would also not damage wrestling as a defensive skill but allow for mages to take it further and have a functioning weapon for it.
     
  35. Goldberg-Chessy

    Goldberg-Chessy Crazed Zealot
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    Thats kinda funny.

    Take a perfectly fine functioning spellcasting skill that was created and has always been for defense and give it properties and also make it an offensive weapon?
    Its not enough that Mages already have by far the most versatile & powerful template right?
    IMO so poorly thought out that it belongs in S&R.

    Right next to my crazy new idea where all bows have an extra property added that allows them to cast all 64 Magery spells on spelltrigger.
    Never heard of a magical bow? Its in more then one fantasy novel so must be valid lol.
     
  36. Mirt

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    I would say that if it was they would need tactics for it to work, and they could not toggle specials while casting, and it would need to have SC to not drop when a spell was cast. I have to confess I am the biggest dexx monkey around. I hate playing mages and rarely ever use my necro. But if a mage is willing to actually put in the points to work like a dexxer I am willing to support that. Of course it would also keep them from using a spell book and a shield, but that is a fair trade off if you ask me. To an extent it will allow tank mages but they will have to spend the skill points for it. If they want to keep it defensive then can do that as well.