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You burn away the impurities...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by GarthGrey, Apr 14, 2009.

  1. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    This is a freaking joke. Flutter receives an icq from someone selling 4 billion gold, vendors everywhere have extrememly rare and obviously duped items for sale, Heartwood scripters continue to run 24/7 without GM interference, but oh Good Golly, the Smelting Section of UO won't be the downfall of this game.....not as long as you can tally up and big ole Whopping 4 Valorite ingots from smelting 24 individual ore. Yeah Draconi, we wouldnt want miners to take over the Top Spot on UO's Rich and Famous list now would we? 4 freaking ingots, and I just smelted a stack of 36 agapite, and got 2!!!! WOOHOOO...at 105 mining, thanks a bunch. UO is a safer place now, we almost lost it once before with those damned NPC gating Mage Cash Cows, but you showed them with your idiotic 4 minute timer...now this...ridiculous.../end rant.
     
  2. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    You could give lessons on that thing Jhym. Go back over some of your old postings and then ask yourself if you had any business offering this type of reply.
     
  3. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    The whole comparison of Mining to Lumberjacking in terms of how the two systems work is really off. Concessions need to be made in BOTH directions:

    1. A standard "swing" nets 10 Logs (10 boards) vs 1 Large Ore (2 ingots)

    2. Wood gets a higher array of extra item mods depending on type used than Ore

    3. Areas to harvest... ok this one I think is a non-issue really, so we'll skip this one

    4. Ore at higher levels in comparison to skill have a chance of yeilding a failure to turn into a useable form (ingots) where Logs can be iused as logs or turned into a lighter form (boards) at a 100% success rate assuming you can harvest the wood in the first place.

    5. You are much more likely to find a natural Valorite vein than you are to find a natural Frostwood tree

    6. In addition to 5, Mining has tools to "bump" a resource node by up to two levels.

    7. Mining has a tool that can bump your skill past the 100.0 skill cap. Lumberjacking's tool with a bonus to skill does not break this cap.
     
  4. Dragonchilde

    Dragonchilde Guest

    Smelt smaller stacks.
     
  5. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Reread the post and then tell me a smaller stack than 1.
     
  6. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Which would you say there is more of, land to mine or trees to chop?
     
  7. phantus

    phantus Stratics Legend
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    I'm sorry, script what? :eyes:
     
  8. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    ...

    Difficult to say. I WANT to say "more trees", but I'm not 100% that's even correct once you take into consideration caves, cave floors, cave-based dungeons, and small rock "bumps" that became mineable sometime between 3rd dawn and AOS and other areas I may be missing.

    Obviously, not all areas that CAN be mined are feasible to be mined, which the same can be said for trees in some locations as well... sure you COULD chop them... but with everything going on around you, SHOULD you stop to do so?

    So my secondary thought is that they two probably are NOT all that disparate overall which is why I began to mention it, then decided to toss it out as an issue and simply left it as a "there may be a difference in the two, but not enough of one to be an issue" type of listing.

    As for the rest, I think steps SHOULD be taken to bring lumberjacking and mining resource gatherings more in line with each other.

    Mining yield should be higher, smelting failures should be reduced if not eliminated, and metals need to have a few mods added (which may or may not be an issue with Embueing on the way), but by the same token, they need to loosen up Wood distribution a bit and/or give the Lumberjacks comparable tools that miners have to loosen the distribution or resource types.

    It's just a weird comparison, ya know?
     
  9. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    At least before the resource changes, you could stock up on higher end ore, and then smelt it slowly for better profit, it took me a good while to find this one Felucca valorite vein, and to come away with only 4 ingots?? It was just a little insulting...
     
  10. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Hey Garth - can I count you in on the side of those that have fallen victim to abnormal streaks from the RNG???? You know the streaks that some like to claim don't exist, but you just experienced first-hand?

    Even at 99 skill (50% chance of success), to get only 4 ingots means that you failed 43-44 times, on 24 individual large ore. at 62% (105 mining), it's even more absurd.

    Succeeded on 2 large ore? 2 successes, 44 failures
    Succeeded on 1 large, 2 "2 small" ore? 3 successes, 43 failures
    Succeeded on 4 "2 small ores? 4 successes, 44 failures.

    None of those results should be seen in game more than 1-2 times by all miners on a shard, COMBINED, in a year. Yet, it happens many more times than that.

    Something is wrong with the RNG code.

    Note: Plugged into a web page that produces probabilities from the proper numbers, the probability of 4 or less successes at 50%, out of 48, as a number between 0 & 1 (shift decimal 2 to the right for percentage) is

    <0.000001

    The exact binomial calculation it gives is

    7.569163074095032e-10

    which should be 0.0000000007569... or about 7.57 chances in a BILLION.

    A LOTTERY has better odds, yet we seem to "win" (if you define losing most your ore as "winning") a lot more often than that.
     
  11. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Crazed Zealot
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    Basara, I read all of the RNG type postings but rarely respond even when they apply to me. But this time I had to. I'm certainly willing to chalk it up to the RNG monster, but it doesn't make it any easier to swallow...
     
  12. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    I've always thought there was something wrong with the calculator when it comes to smelting high end ore. My solution, I always break it up and smelt no more than 8 at a time. Yeah it's time comsuming but not as much as mining all that ore again if you loose it.
     
  13. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
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    /Freakin' Signed

    Twice. Mining really isn't too bad at all, IMO, using tactics previously described.

    LJ is the suck. That comes from someone that can find the good in most things.

    LJ is the suck.
     
  14. Michael Wolf

    Michael Wolf Guest

    Add in this minor imbalance:

    Smelt an item (not Ingots) and your Mining skill dictates the amount of colored ingots you get in return or whether you can even smelt it.

    Cut up any leather item and get the same amount of colored leather as anyone else no matter your skill in anything.

    Chop up a wooden crafted item and get nothing.
     
  15. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
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    If mining powerscrolls found their way into the game, I certainly wouldn't be opposed.

    It's heartbreaking to take down a paragon valorite elemental only to watch the hard-won ore evaporate.
     
  16. In comparison, I got 20 val ore from my ore cart yesterday, and came out with 14 ingots, which is actually on the low side of my normal average of 14-18 ingots per 20 ore. That said, I say we still need an Anti-RNG RNG...
     
  17. Gheed

    Gheed Certifiable
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    Un-randomize resource spawn. Limit any resource yielding node in fel guard zones to single resources. Remove rare resources from communtiy collections, or make their point value dynamic, or cap daily turns in based on mining/LJ skill(account bound). Adjust NPC shadow heater value or disable the ability to sell all item types at once to bypass the vendor's gold limit. Problem solved.
     
  18. Sir Morder

    Sir Morder Certifiable
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    You are obviously doin something wrong or just plain don't know game mechanics. I can easily smelt 100's of valorite ore a day and get tons of ingots everyday. Boring to say the least is mining. Way too easy!!
     
  19. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Visitor

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    *insert random RNG insult here*
     
  20. what if the same system applied to mages say one time FS did 3 damage instead of 35 using 25 regents instead three
    or one time your bow did 3 damage instead of 35 shooting 6 arrows instead of one

    or if you cast FS and got night sight instead

    this is the total BS randomnes that crafters live with!

    we should be skilled workers able to make things the way we want with the properties we want etc etc etc blah blah blah we can only hope imbuing hgelps...........
     
  21. The_Letter_E

    The_Letter_E Guest

    Actually, I think you can determine this. Simply look into the MAP file and find the references to trees and rocks, break that down in an 8x8 squares and tally them up. You'd know a cound of minable 8x8 squares and a count of 8x8 squares that have a tree.

    You're REAL issue in regards to trees is that the some trees are good for 2 set of logs and some for 20 or more. Mining is always 16 I think.

    I much prefer mining to the lumberjack trade.
     
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
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    Actually mining can vary as well from 2 or 3 digs to 20+ in a single vein. Mining nodes (veins) are no more standardized in number of hits per node than lumberjacking nodes (trees).
     
  23. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    The only things "Standard" about mining are this...

    1. Every 8x8 grid square produces a different average amount of digs, but that square, if fully rested from the previous dig, will produce roughly that number of digs every time, regardless of metal/stone type, +/- a percentage. It is THIS number that is probably by affected by the Elven bonus, NOT the percentage of ore (As it is this number that is affected by the elven bonus for lumberjacking). This "number of hits" property is also possessed by lumberjacking, and why "magic trees" were so loved by lumberjacks, when they existed.

    2. Each spot always produces the same ratio of color to iron (with a slight range of variance, from just the RNG checks) when capable of producing colored ore, and that ratio differs from square to square. This is true even if the spot is currently iron, and elevated through GPA or PT to DC or Shadow. Given that I've seen some squares give 90-95% colored regularly with a HUMAN, I would guess that this is NOT the number modified by the elven bonus.

    I actually tested half of this before the ore randomization, by going through all my books 10 times, and recording the colored/iron ratios. I tossed all the runes that gave an average under 50% colored.

    Those locations, after randomization, were tested again, and still produce the same numbers of ore as before (just different color type), and at the same average ratios between color & iron.

    So, there are times when I will still go recall "book mining", but though I won't know exactly what colored ore I'll get, I definitely know the colored ingots will add up to more than the iron I bring back.
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Grand Poobah
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    LOL
     
  25. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Frodo, I think your meter is missing the "start loading animals 2 by 2" level, which is about where morder's comment would rate....
     
  26. Harlequin

    Harlequin Babbling Loonie
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    My observation tallies with yours as well. But I'd never compared notes with other miners before. Some spots give 20 or more "successful digs", while other spots give 4 or less. Everytime you dig at these spots, the 20 ore spots will give you 20 ores, the 4 ore spots will give you 4 ore. This doesn't seem to change. This tallies with Basara's first results.

    Some spots give a better ratio of coloured ore compared to others. I had spots that I upgraded to val, and out of 10+ digs each time, it gave between 0-2 valorite ore. When it changed to gold, dull copper and shadow iron, the ratio was the same, 0-2 coloured ore. This tallies with Basara's second result.

    Also, regarding "Fully rested" spots. They tend to give almost double the amount of ore, but I think there are 2 factors here:

    1) Each 8x8 tile probably stores enough ore for 2 respawns, though the resting time seems to be more than 2 respawns. Mostly noticeable after server has come up from daily maintenance.

    2) At other times, you just hit a respawn while mining - this one is weird if you have upgraded the ore with a prospector's tool. The upgrade sometimes seem to carry forward to the respawn. Ie, when a dull copper spot is upgraded to shadow iron, if it respawns before you finish mining it out, it doesn't revert back to dull copper, but continues as shadow iron.


    Tip: Using UOA to record macros to mine relative positions, there are many spots that it can reach that you can't reach manually, esp in mountains and walls of caves.
     
  27. falseprophet

    falseprophet Lore Master
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    Actually i am going to say more land to mine because of all those little earth mounds you can mine in the middle of the trees
     
  28. miss uo

    miss uo Guest

    Enlighten us on what were are doing wrong, or what we dont know about game mechanics. Because there is definitely a code ERROR with smelting.