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A proposed idea to finally FIX fel/pvp/stealing/risk v reward!!/INSURANCE!!

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Ryix (europa), Sep 11, 2008.

  1. I propose that fel becomes less carebare in one simple way. for insurance/bless purposes make everything cursed... just while in fel... ok now all you "omg but i goto fel sometimes i dont wanna lose my stuff!!" Hear me out!

    People goto fel for two reasons, to pvp and for extra rewards.

    Now reason one.. i assume alot of pvpers will tell you that it was better BEFORE it was item based, and the only reason they play prod instead of siege is because of all the other factors not because of insurance. Then theres the pvpers who just wanna pvp without losing their items.. well.. theres guild wars in trammel and i doubt it would be hard for the devs to nock up a everyman for himself faction type stone/arena in tram, you join /enter the arena and theres insured pvp! woo :p no counts maybe there? who knows

    then theres reason two! Extra rewards... guess what... the reason theres extra rewards in fel is coz theres extra risk... that risk currently is a small amount of time lost when you die... thats not really a big risk for an extra 100% reward right? hmm :p i mean really death via pvp in fel and death via monster in tram. only difference? you lose bandies and regs in fel and you cant avoid death as easy as invising or running away from the stupid and slow monster :p

    (oh and yes you can totally learn to pvm WITHOUT arties.. guess what!? we killed balrons and aw;s before arties too :p)

    Everyone wins no?
    Thieves get re boosted. PVP has now even more options and more depth, its win win?, the risk vrs reward is actually a risk. (you can even boost the reward if people wanna cry about it and its unscriptable because no ones gonna be able to afk kill anything worthwhile in gm armor and no scriptor is going to be safe in fel if people actually get something out of killing them)

    I know its a RADICAL change, but i see no downside, your covering all bases and reintroducing (for me) one of the best templates and playstyles in the game.

    and if you wanna flame me and say it wouldnt work and you wouldnt pvp,, look at siege it works people

    PLEASE IF YOUR GOING TO CONTRIBUTE IN ANYWAY PLEASE EXPLAIN... otherwise you have no reason to post.
  2. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    May 16, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Well I'd agree, but then it's not like I needed to be converted in the first place ;)

  3. Viper09

    Viper09 Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 16, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Hey, now theres an idea. As long as it can give a thief some life :p

    I like it
  4. I'll admit theres a slight oversight ive made regarding boosting the reward, it basically creates another powerscroll type problem, but not really to the same extent and they are at risk of being killed too i suppose... and hey more power to a group of players if they choose to co-op in this mmo game :) even if it means i have to pay 432432mil for a 110 ps >.< lol
  5. Traveller

    Traveller Guest

    A pretty old idea. I approve of it, but 90% of "tough pvpers" probably don't.
  6. Radun

    Radun Guest

    horrible idea.
    need not fix whats not broken.
    hey ya, good idea! YOU go to siege, that should work out nicely for you then...
  7. any idea why? lol
  8. Ok.. explain why its a horrible idea and why its not broken? lol
  9. Radun

    Radun Guest

    It's not broken because it's working as designed and intended.
    It's a horrible idea for a fix, because it's not broken.
    Hmm... explain why it IS a good idea and why it IS broken? ROFLMAO OMG HAHA

    ya, let's fix tailoring... by removing it. explain how that's a horrible idea and it's not broken? HAH LOLOL

    Let's fix Doom! ...by removing it.
  10. i already did... thats what the post was.. no need to be an ass thou is there?

    All i ask is that if anyone wants to contribute either way to what ive said they at least provide a reason.

    For your special needs ill explain again. people complain about all the issues in the title on an almost daily basis here.. because they feel they are "broken" or in need of adjustment its a proposed fix. and so far no one has thought of a reason why its a bad idea.. at least not one they are able to express.

    And as for the edit you made there,, if it was working as intended stealing would still be viable... because that was intended right? insurance was never INTENDED to kill a whole playstyle it was just an unfortunate side effect
  11. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    no thx , if you dont like insurence bob of to siege
  12. Why? explanation please? or just a knee jerk i dont wanna lose all my stuff response?

    And as for bobbing off to siege theres more to that shard than just no insurance and no trammel. there is a totally different playstyle there, I do actually play there although ive recently been forced to delete my char to make a new one :p

    I dont want the whole harder experience of siege on all prod shards, just a little more fel in fel :p

    OH and incase you think this is all self serving, i cannot pvp at all.. i mean like not even a little bit. only time i goto fel is to mine and lj :p occasionally ill go bum around there and watch people fight but i suck at pvp.. so really if this went live it would hinder me more.. but its a GOOD idea... if you wanna tell me why its not.. other than "oh i just dont like it its fine as it is"
  13. Radun

    Radun Guest

    I think you just answered your own question about how it's a horrible idea.

    YES insurance was intended to make it so that thieves can't steal from you!
    I double checked your first post, and just as i thought... there's NO explanation about how this system is broken... hmm
  14. LOL it was?! wow thats a pretty radical change to the game when they could have just removed the skill... huh funny.. but your wrong.. and you still havnt explained why its a bad idea. If its JSUT to remove stealing from players... then do that ... still nobody loses out (except anyone that plays a thief)

    you clearly have no point to make other than "oh no i dont want any risk for my reward" back it up with a valid reason other than this schoolyard "oh hey you just said this" banter
  15. Violence

    Violence Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    May 27, 2008
    Likes Received:
  16. Oh my that is a valid argument.. ill just drop it as clearly a bad idea then huh?

    Im not expecting this change im just wondering if anyone can see how anyone would lose out here? if anyone person can tell me how ANYONE would lose out here without having a viable option to continue their playstyle let me know..

    OTHER than peoples houses that are currently in fel.. they can get ones in tram if its that bad you know :p lord knows theres plenty of space in tram/tok/malas :p
  17. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    there are other reasons to go to fel other than to pvp and extra rewards.. your "solution" doesn't address this issue.
  18. and your post doesnt explain why ... :) please explain

    What are these other reasons? (im sure there are some im not being patronizing here)

    and please when you let me know tell me why it wouldnt address those issues and if that means its a total bad idea just because its not an instant fix to everything?
  19. Radun

    Radun Guest

    You still haven't explained how this is broken!

    It's a horrible idea, the absolute worst idea, ever, ever ever, because its... not... fixing... anything.
    the only things your (useless) thief would be able to steal are the exact same things they already can steal... nobody would bring their equipment with them when they went to fel (which would be even less than now).

    about risk vs reward... you're saying we need to increase the risk, because the rewards are way to high for going to fel... there's way to many people going to fel right now because of the rewards, so the solution is we need to increase the risk, so that all these people will stop crowding the facet up...
    but think about it... you're increasing the risk, by making it so people can lose their stuff. you're also increasing the reward, by making it so you can loot other people's stuff... oh noes, i guess they'll have to add even more risk! they should make it so that if you go to fel your character is deleted, or better yet, they could make it so that if you die in fel you get permanently banned from the game! sounds like a pretty fair risk vs reward to me! [/sarcasm]
  20. No need to exaggerate there really was there?

    Thankyou for actually posting a somewhat reasonable reason thou. Now i will reply and in kind you may reply again if you feel you have no expressed your point clearly enough or my reply does not explain why your post in my opinion is wrong.

    as for the first part its clearly fixing alot of things thats kinda the point, for one my currently useless thief, look at siege people still take nice items out to pvp with even thou they can lose them, simply because those slightly nicer than gm items give them an edge because they are willing to lose them. Id take the chance to steal a slightly better than gm weapon over the chance to fail at a large stack of bandies or pots or regs anyday and that doesnt mean being disarm thief because people usually take more than one weapon and switch around.

    Im not increasing risk.. im putting risk there! theres currently already no risk, and yes the pks get the extra reward of looting peoples (obviously not going to be great) stuff and guess whta... why not!? they are in fel. they risk the same fate! theres nothing to stop people from being ppks again :p

    Please reply again, explain again how im wrong about it fixing anything (dont just say its not tell me why) and then explain why pks shouldnt get extra reward for their risk just because they are pks? afterall that blue they try to kill may be better than them... and may get to loot the red

    And yes your right this will cause a depopulation of fel somewhat and that is a bad thing. but what do you really lose from the people that wouldnt goto fel if this change went live not being there anymore?
  21. Radun

    Radun Guest

    as for who loses out... everyone who currently pvp. what do i lose by less people being in fel? are you serious... what do i LOSE by LESS people being in fel? uhhh we lose people? duh?

    the only thing you're almost "fixing" is the fact that thieves cannot steal anything worthwhile from players (which btw, is intended).. but do you think this will actually be fixed when instead of tons of great stuff to steal from players, you find that absolutely nobody in their right mind brings anything of value with them to fel anymore.........

    I'm not the only one saying go to siege. you keep using siege as your example of how this works.. just go to siege if you like the way things work over there so much.
    stop trying to force the siege playstyle onto everyone else just because you're too stubborn to start a new character on a server that's (supposedly, in your opinion) so superior.
  22. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 13, 2004
    Likes Received:
    I tell you why, because they skink with out all their urber trammie suits and gear.
  23. Oh and just to point out, to everyone else, so far i have 4 people that think its a good idea and have no contributed any negative effects of such a change (im including myself:p)

    And i have 4 people against. one is somewhat rationally trying to explain to me why they are against...

    Now forgive me but im going to right away take the other 3 againsts out because .. well they dont have a reason to be against as far as they have stated... so in my mind at least.. its 4 for 1 against :p please feel free to even the score or post your approval.

    Oh sorry we have another reason why against here but ima just explain why thats a poop reason even if it is a joke :p

    Coz if they stink without items they can go pvp in trammel with insurance :)
  24. Radun

    Radun Guest

    and you still refuse to explain how the system is broken or somehow not working as intended.
  25. Ok so you lose people in fel.. but its people that no longer want to participate if its not easy street to better rewards. which by my accounts is no loss at all.. its like when they buffed swoop :p

    Stealing from players was in my mind never intended to be removed by insurance, they could have removed it in far easier ways and if indeed it was intended to be removed then im fairly certain they would have removed it rather than just limited it to pointless worthless items and forgetfull players.

    and yea.. i appreciate that no one is going to carry around 5 arties in fel with that change, but i still say a gm katana is better than a bandie. and if you steal something that is not easily replaced you are still PLAYING your playstyle.

    Back in "the hayday" of stealing. nobody had anything of worthwhile stealing in fel anyway. im not asking to steal your arties and im giving those that wish to pvp with arties another and better realm in which todo so. (there is no reason that trammel pvp cannot be expanded on)

    Its a good change as it gives a whole massive boost to pvp, you have not only the current item based pvp still but also a skill based and risk based pvp and i see no legitimate loss to anyone.
  26. Radun

    Radun Guest

    Thanks for reiterating one of my (very valid and extremely factual) points.
    Nobody will bring their good stuff with them. (if they even bother going there after such a change)
  27. I guess i imagined all the controversy over insurance in fel and risk vrs reward and stealing then.. heh silly me.

    Working as intended and possibility for improvement are different things. perhaps i should have titled the thread as an improvement rather than a fix then? because currently the game does not break.. im just saying a more "original old school uo" environment may be a benefit to some players that have been begging for such a thing for a very very long time...
  28. therein lies the choice.. if people could tell me why they wouldnt wanna goto fel to pvp without their leet sewts then fine, but from what i understand alot of people would appreciate the chance to compete skillwise rather than itemwise

    And does it matter if they bring good stuff with them or not? as long as people enjoy it ?
  29. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2004
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    Not a very good idea until they make specific items easier to replace.
  30. Oo excellent another against :)

    What items easier to replace and why are they required? people that wish to continue pvping with great gear is already covered so im wondering :)
  31. Flutter

    Flutter Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2004
    Likes Received:
    I'm not going to argue with you.
    I think stuff should break.
    I think item insurance should be removed.
    I think people should be able to be looted in tram once they turn to bones.
    Before all of this happens I think people should be able to replace their items easier.
    If you want to know why ... I am not sure you're playing the same game as I am. This game became item based with AOS. Nothing is going to change that now.
  32. Radun

    Radun Guest

    wrong. it's not just people who are there for extra reward. It's everyone who currently enjoys the pvp playstyle.:loser:
    wrong again..:loser:
    yet again... wrong. you won't be stealing anything that's 'not easily replaced'. you'd be stealing the crappiest low-end stuff.:loser:

    why should they ruin and (further) depopulate a whole facet, with changes such as this, just to reintroduce the origional un-ruined system somewhere else? wouldn't it make more sense for them to add a new facet with the crappy new system, instead of ruining an existing system just to reintroduced the origional system somewhere else?:loser:

    reread your first line in this post to see why this is not valid.:loser:
  33. ! i could not agree more with that, and yes this game is VERY item based, but there is still a skill element, and item based pvp can easily live on in trammel arenas or tram deathmatch style factions. (everyman for himself rather than teams) frankly riskless pvp seems like more of a trammel concept to me than a danger fel concept :p as it stands fell feels more like an arena for pvp than a seperate facet with different rules.

    I would love to see items break thou its a massive problem with uo, for an item based games my items are awfully static (i never seem to change), im basically going to have them forever or until i find something ever so slightly better.. what im suggesting gives everyone (even people without leet suits) a place to learn skill based pvp it gives those than long for such an experience a place to go and it doesnt take anything from the game or reallly even add anything.

    and im not asking anyone to argue with me :) if people feel the need to get irate thats their problem :p

    I genuinley want peoples feed back, i wonder about the player base of uo, and what it wants. sometimes it feels like people want to be playing a riskless game and other its like people are screaming between the lines that they actually liked that element of fear when they went to fel :p
  34. Radun

    Radun Guest

    Hmm, I think that's what siege is for...
  35. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    I think you are oversimplifying the issues here. Yes, people go to Fel to PvP, and people go to Fel for the extra rewards. But you can't treat the two issues separately. If people are PvPing and are not near a moongate, then most likely they are trying to get the extra rewards.

    How would such a change to no insurance affect the champion spawn scene? You claim that there would be more options and more depth. I claim that there wouldn't be much of an overall change... the big raiding guilds would still dominate and hacking and scripting would still be rampant. If anything, the added "risk" of more downtime upon death would more hurt the smaller guilds who rely on sneak attacks and guerilla tactics to earn their rewards.

    I agree that thieves have gotten the short end of the stick, but there are ways to help them out in Fel without effectively excluding PvPers from using any of the top tiered items. For example, set a limit on how many combat-related items people can have insured/blessed in Fel.

    And yes, siege works because of the devoted player base. That is, most of the people who think that the high-risk no-insurance playstyle suits them best have already relocated there. Implementing such a change on the rest of the shards would mostly be forcing people to commit to a style they don't want.

    I don't see how implementing a change that would further segregate the Tram/Fel divide would help the game as a whole. In my view, they should be making it less of a hassle to switch between Tram and Fel, not the other way around.
  36. Spree

    Spree Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 13, 2004
    Likes Received:

    Why is this a point? When you die you will lose all you arties and they will go to outfit the people that killed you. In time you learn that you dont need a 8 arties to play. You will go out with what you are willing to risk losing.
  37. pavel.vesely

    pavel.vesely Guest

    Why the **** you propose changes to things you don't/cannot use?


    Pavel VeselĂ˝
  38. Ok alot of your reply there was just "your wrong" you still fail to provide any reason you can word.

    By current pvp playstyle you mean item based pvp, which is all well and good and fel is nothing more than an arena for that, the arena can be moved with little fuss.

    Constantly saying im wrong does not make me wrong. provide reasons. You have no proof stealing was intentionally removed via insurance and i have non it was a simple side effect.

    as for not stealing anything easily replaced... a nice pvp weap (nice enough to use but not so nice as to risk losing) is not easily replaced, easier than an artifact sure but easier than a potion or a reg? no..
    No one is looking to steal high end artifacts im being realistic here i dont expect that, but the ability to steal ANYTHING would be a bonus and bring back a whole play style, your concentrating on stealing too much. The reason for the loss of insurance is not so i can steal your stuff, its so theres DANGER in the DANGEROUS facet, fel is an arena currently nothing more.

    And sure if you want a whole nother facet... you uh... your crazy for one.. uo has not the population in whole to support its landmass. you can run around all day in most facets and see no one... too much land..
    Why not move the current pvp system ? what does it lose? your ADDING a whole lot at the loss of nothing here...
    Hell if you want you can do it the other way and have a real fel arena (the proposed change) in a smaller "say one server?" sized area. Hell convert mag into one its not like its doing anything.

    LOL by no loss to anyone i didnt mean "oh hey people could lose items" thats kinda the point in the whole post.. duh?

    I meant that you dont lose out on anything, if you want to keep your items then theres room for your playstyle too, im just proposing an area where risk enters uo AGAIN..

    But hey if you think tram... aos... insurance improved uo.. you go right ahead and play diablo.. i mean uo.. just do it in tram? the only people that lose out.. is people that are abusing the easy ride fel gives currently with its extra reward lack of risk system.
  39. lol im just not being selfish.. trying to save uo.. taking into account all the complaints ive heard over the years about uo since ea took over... but like.. if thats not reason enough.. how about i enjoy the thrill of being in actual danger? :p
  40. HURRAH!! Someone understands how uo used to be! YAY!!
  41. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend

    Oct 1, 2006
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    Yup and regardless of what everyone seems to think not everyone has a Tailor/Smith/Carpenter/ect., or at least want to dedicate the time it takes to put in for making equipment of any quality. Putting UO's PvP environment back into the days of wear what your willing to risk to loose is nothing but a Win situation, by tanking insurance in Fel or restricting it, for Thieves, and dedicated crafters a like. Once it gets to the point where Artifact Quality items aren't the PvP standard prices should drop because even with runic kits enough armor to completely outfit a character numerous times a day won't be common enough or worth buying opening up the market to lower (by today's standard) end items with less mods and more balanced resists.
    Uber Templates won't be as dominate as they won't be possible with out the reliability of items being a factor in play resulting in a much more level playing field where PvP is more challenge than gear. Spamming Special Strikes won't be as common without Mana Regen Suits with High Resists, and Mage PvP will change to strategy based on either mana conservation or quick kills over who can spam out low end spells the fastest to either heal yourself, or harm your opponent til he drops. All in all it will kill item based play in an environment that should be based on skill and not equipment, while lifting up some of the short comings in other areas of the game.
  42. to quote yourself "your wrong"
  43. Praise the lordy :p alot more ayes than nays now lol
  44. Nexus

    Nexus Site Support
    Administrator Moderator Professional Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend

    Oct 1, 2006
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    I been spamming that type of stuff in every Thief Thread for the past week :p
  45. Excellent a valid well written well thought out against post :D good man!

    I understand that this is a very simplistic change that wont change as much as it needs to but its a step in the right direction for uo, not just fel

    I agree that it doesnt address the champ scene directly ,, but raiding those uber guilds that do champs may become a little easier.. they ahve the same gear as you now.. the millions they earn from powerscrolls and spend on uber suits are DIRECTLY on the line now, they can either stoop to your item level (giving raiders a chance) or they can risk all ,, one guy dies away from the group (gurilla tactics here) hes free loot, you just got something outta the champ even if it wasnt a scroll!

    ive thought about the limit to insurance, but that just means people steamline what htye want to bring. they wont bring uber items uninsured just because they hit their max.
    and for those that LIKE pvp with insurance theres alternatives and viable ones that really dont effect their pvp at all... does it matter where insurance based pvpers fight eachother? if they want to go pk miners and such they can still goto fel and do that just now they have an area where every like minded item pvp player can go.

    implementing this change doesnt force anyone todo anything thou... no playstyles are removed and none of changed in any depth. The thing people mis about siege is that its not just a prod shard without insurance or trammel. theres alot more to it, but this isnt a siege thread.
  46. Radun

    Radun Guest

    ...Which just so happens to be nothing of value.

    the reason why people risk losing decent items on siege is because... on siege there's no way to use them without the risk. the items aren't worth a ton in the first place because you know you're going to lose them if you use them.

    On a production shard, IF anyone DID bring their good setup to fel and lost them, they wouldn't be used by the person who killed them. the person who killed them would take their freshly looted uber gear to trammel where there's no risk of losing them.... they can either use them in safety, OR sell them for a ton of gold.

    but as I suspect, the above scenario wouldn't happen, as nobody in their right mind would throw away that much gold
  47. lol good, i just hope people can see past the re-adding of a thief here, it doesnt just add something for thieves todo again. It brings the people SKILL BASED UO... honestly.. its as close to pre aos as your ever likely to get.
  48. Exactly... skill based uo returns...

    Pre trammel people would loot vanqs and never use them, except in rare occasions.. some people would just put them away and look at them :p who knows why. but people do it on siege, save that uber arty for that special occasion anyway they get siege bless which im humming and harring over weather would be good in the proposed change or not,, im thinking not but thats just me :)
  49. This post was lost in stupidity by the first sentance. UO has always been item based. if you say anything else then you are the type of people who screamed for insurance to begin with. Insurance gave the people who could not afford to go get powers and vanqs and invul armour the opportunity to pvp on the same level as everyone else.

    If people want to run on shards where insurance is not available they have the opportunity to do so. No one is allowed to post anything else in subject to the removal of insurance or "balancing pvp". you dont like something adapt if you dont have something go get it. quit crying and trying to change a game with weak enhancments
  50. Radun

    Radun Guest

    wrong:loser: (that's exactly what siege is for)