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Beating a dead horse...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Fridgster, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Fridgster

    Fridgster Babbling Loonie
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    Could we please at least reexamine the decision to make resource tiles random? It has done nothing but make miners nearly obsolete. You gather more high end ore faster with a warrior or fisherman. Seriously. A fisherman. I won't even get into the mind numbing lose of high end ore at grandmaster level mining. Not to mention it makes no physical sense. Why would ore randomly change locations. Not to mention it has really given the scripters a golden goose egg. Everything about resources randomization makes no sense.
     
  2. GarthGrey

    GarthGrey Grand Poobah
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    Was it Draconi that used to actually punish the resource scripters ? The idea now is to punish everyone apparently.
     
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  3. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    Yes, this really needs to change back to the way it was. It's done nothing to hurt the scripters and everything to hurt the folks trying to do it the right way. I'm not sure why this has to be a dead horse, it should be pretty obvious change that needs done - I don't see any logic that makes random ore a good idea from a development standpoint unless it's "extreme grinding makes things fun".
     
  4. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    Just my opinion...

    Resourse tiles should be individualized (not randomized) and only reset on server-up.

    A valorite vein could be mined once per day per character. Doesn't matter who gets there first or last... anyone with some runes will be able to mine thier own ingots pretty easy.
     
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  5. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Grand Poobah
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    I haven't figured out the reasoning yet either.

    Random resources-kills the part time player, the one who plays a couple of hours a day. Makes billionaires of the scripters who mine 23/7.

    And Powerscrolls...still available in Fel only. Makes the pvp crowd a lot of gold, even tho they are a small percentage of the overall UO playerbase. You want to get bigger stronger and more skilled??? Gotta go to the local drug dealer, errrr, I mean powerscroll vendor to do it, unless you want to pvp.

    I could go on but won't. It's just sometimes it seems like they purposefully try to see just how far they can push the envelope.
     
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  6. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    Not sure I see the point of making each resource location usable once per day. This would actually play into the scripters favor again and only serve to frustrate the player trying to do it right. I'd be super disillusioned if I got home from work to mine and find out that all of Delucia had already been stripped clean and I needed to take my miner out into deeper territory where he couldn't defend himself well just for the chance to mine for a couple hours.

    Once per day use locations would make things even less fun than they are now.
     
  7. Acid Rain

    Acid Rain Lore Master
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    You wouldn't find anything stripped clean unless you had already mined it - I think is what was meant.
     
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  8. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    Yep, I failed at reading comprehension on that one. That was my bad.
     
  9. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    godzilla-facepalm.JPG

    I've discussed this before, and It's the idea of UNCHANGING sites that are unrealistic - for mining, at least. (I'm in full agreement with you all on wood collection)

    From the Mining FAQ

    One of the things that is constantly argued by those who have no idea how mining works in real life, is that "ore locations don't change in real life."

    Perhaps they don't, exactly - but what qualifies as one man's copper ore (or even the TAILINGS left behind) is often someone else's gold or silver ore. It all depends on market value of the metals in question, at the time. Nearly every ore that exists for any metal, is ALSO a source for at least one other metal; it's just that one of the metals (sometimes two of them) are significantly more profitable to mine than the others.

    From a subscription-only (free) newsgroup I read (The Baen's Bar forum, for the authors and fans of Baen Books), where the discussion of metals for investing came up, and turned to actual reclaimation of metals from ore....

    Poster 1:

    "Silver mining is great because most silver is not mined--it's a byproduct of zinc, copper or lead mining. Silver is an industrial metal that gets consumed. Current projects include going through the TAILINGS of older mines to scavenge what they missed, quite cost effectively, and cutting into hills to retrieve new stuff. "

    Poster 2:

    "Friend of mine just bought six hundred metric tons of tailings from a Montana (copper) mine and in two weeks of processing they've recovered six hundred ounces of gold, two tons of silver, several kilos of rare earths (why those are measured in metrics I dunno) as well as lots of gem stones that in the area between rare/common. They've hardly even started into the stuff they bought from the two mines and they've already doubled their investment, paid off the processing fees for the rest of the tailings and the environmental tax to process the tailings back into reuseable earth (and if it passes EPA testing they get that tax back plus a multiplier as a deduction against their profits so it's well worth the trouble.) "

    ***

    In these cases, these are getting multiple types of valuable metals from the LEFTOVERS of a copper mine. In fact, if the copper mine had been rich enough in gold or silver, they would have been called a mine for THOSE metals, and the COPPER would be what was left in the tailings (as was the case in the Old West (US) prior to the use of electricity causing copper to become valuable).

    So, really, getting multiple metals from a single spot, over time, is not unrealistic at all - it was just implemented poorly, in terms of the change times (after all, even at 12 UO days per real day, the desirable ore of a spot changes too often to reflect what would cause you to concentrate one one metal type over another).
     
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  10. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    I don't disagree with that you're saying in regard to real life locations, but I believe that this is a case of gameplay > realism. The only people benefiting from random / changing ore locations is scripters and the average honest miner is at a large disadvantage.
     
    #10 Veldrane, Aug 8, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  11. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    Yup.

    Once per day per character has a couple of benefits:

    1. You, me, and anyone else can mark the same ore vein and mine it on our own schedule. Doesn't matter if we show up 6 hours apart or all at the same time.
    2. Once you have a few books of each ore type marked, it isn't a terrible burden to mine what you need as you go (at least for the semi-casual crafter).
    3. Script miners cycling through the same 10 runebooks goes away. Some tard out there might fill up 100 atlases with runes (knock yourself out), but the days of script mining 23/7 would be a thing of the past.
    4. IMO, it comes about as close as possible to putting real players back on equal footing with scripters. Even serious BOD fillers would have a reasonable ability to mine their own ingots in a reasonable amount of time.
     
  12. Dizzy

    Dizzy Lore Master
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    What does this have to do with pet resurrection?

    I've never figured out why desecration of an equine corpse was considered an acceptable problem solving technique.
     
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  13. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    One thing I also discovered early on in the era of shifting ore types is that the Devs really didn't have an idea how the system worked.

    Devs we talked to kept saying that there was a uniform (20% or 40%; forget which) chance on any given swing of a colored ore from a non-iron location. And that Elves got 20% above that (for 40% or 60%).

    What was ACTUALLY going on is that every resource square had ITS OWN PERCENTAGE CHANCE per swing of colored ore, and of course, that percentage came into play when you used Prospector Tools and/or Gargoyle's Pickaxes on it. And those percentages NEVER CHANGED, regardless of the ore type.

    I had several sets of mining books I'd acquired from various sources, so had 20-48 spots for every ore type.

    Some of the locations never gave more than 20% (some as low as 10%) colored ore, before Mondain's Legacy (obviously, these were high-end colored ore types that were hard to find). Using an elf after ML barely improved it, though you got a few more digs. When ores started changing, the amount of colored ore sucked uniformly, regardless of ore type.

    Many other locations (usually in mining caves & dungeons) produced 60%, 70%, or 80%+ ore, in large quantities. Elves got a substantial bump, but not +20%, and a similar substantial increases in dig attempts. When ores started changing, the amount of colored ore was equally outstanding, with rare dips that brought it closer to 50%.

    So, it seems that the actual numbers were that the Elves were simply getting 120% of the human amount (so that if a human was getting 40%, elves would get 48% (40%x1.20)), and that everything else was based on misunderstandings of the code.

    So, I consolidated the 32 or so best spots for me in a couple books, and just made the rounds; usually, I'd end up with at least 1 or 2 of those high output, high percentage, sites popping out 15-25 valorite, when I used the PT & GPA - sometimes 4 or more - and that's not counting extra ore from eles. Eventually, I became addicted to the fun and extra ore from mining with gargoyle's pickaxes, and misplaced the books somewhere, and just started mining the rock walls at Sacrifice, Spirituality and Valor gates in Ilshenar, getting all the extra ore from the elementals and the occasional paragon chest.

    If you really want to take advantage of the ores, go through your old ore books, find the spots with lots of digs and lots of colored ore, and consolidate into a single runic atlas. You'll get that colored ore easily enough. And you'll likely be digging places others aren't.
     
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  14. Enziet

    Enziet Journeyman

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    I tried to create a map of all the resource spots on Trammel / Fel and what they give, but they kept changing. I realize that there are some spots that only produce higher grade materials. But every once in awhile they would spit out nothing but Iron. It was really messed up.

    I do agree. It shouldn't be random. Some of us actually try to take the time to map where good things are in game, to only have them randomly change is a pain in the ass.

    Yes I do see how it can create perfect PK area's as people will camp and wait for others to come mine the spot and kill them to take the ores. But not everyone plays during times that these people are functional and can easily reap the benefits of working night shifts on weekends and take all of the high end ores for themselves :drool:
     
  15. Ender

    Ender Crazed Zealot
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    Yes, this should absolutely be reverted
     
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  16. Parnoc

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    To me this plan sounds like an even bigger advantage to a scripter, they make runebooks, recall to it everyday with a script. I definitely vote no on this sorry, just put ore back like it was but with veins changing color occasionally, puts the mystery into mining and makes the scripter have to mine randomly again.
     
  17. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Stratics Legend
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    KEEP BEATING THAT DAMN THING, WHO KNOWS IT JUST MAY COME BACK TO LIFE.
     
  18. Spartan

    Spartan Lore Keeper

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    I'd like to see the randomization removed as well. I really need a good-sized infusion of high-end ores but I'll be dipped if I'll do it via <ahem> offline means.
     
  19. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    And how does it hurt you if they do that, so long as you as the average player can go mine and get whatever you need whenever you need?
     
  20. Parnoc

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    I quote your method here: A valorite vein could be mined once per day per character

    That means I recall in, mine what I can get ONE TIME, maybe 4 piles of ore, maybe more, then I'm done for the day?
     
  21. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    Why not have both? For example, give some nodes static ore values. Give other nodes rotating ore values - but make them discoverable only with a prospector's tool. You get the best of both worlds, there are old spots that can be visited, and an element of exploration would still exist.
     
  22. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Stratics Legend
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    No put them back the way they were because the only people you punished were the HONEST players and with your way the honest players would only be left with the random one because the scripters would have the rest. So again the HONEST player is punished.
     
  23. Deraj

    Deraj Sage
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    How exactly would that be any different with static spots? You're saying under my hybrid idea, the static spots are going to be constantly depleted - so if all the spots are static, how is the same conclusion not reached? And if your argument is that players must explore and find those undiscovered sweet spots, again how is that different from having to explore and discover unidentified rotating nodes?

    Look, when it comes to rotating ore distribution - both scripters and non-scripters are getting the same proportions of ore. The difference is that the scripter can mine for longer and get a much larger quantity of ore, and thus his high-level ore haul is going to be bigger. But again, the point is that both sides are getting the same proportion. Making the ore static isn't going to solve the scripter problem, and in fact will result in scripters targeting static spots to flood the market with huge levels of high-level metal. This harms the honest miner in an entirely different way - and in truth you are not addressing the scripter problem at all. So don't sit here and catastrophically fail to address scripters in any way that is even remotely intelligent, and then wave that argument in my face.

    If you want to deal with scripters, the answer does not lie in static vs. rotating nodes. The answer is that mining has to become fundamentally less monotonous, but more complex and challenging. Why do you think mining is so incredibly easy to automate? It's because the way it works now has zero challenge, it is overly simplistic, and has been watered down and made even easier over time by fire beetles, bags of sending, and runebook mining in general. If you want to defeat the scripters then the gameplay itself has to become more intelligent, and thus more challenging. Yes, that means that the honest players will have it a little harder - but if the gameplay is more fun, and/or the process becomes harder to automate, players will necessarily find it more rewarding to go out and mine.

    So repeat after me: STATIC SPOTS WILL NOT HARM SCRIPT MINERS. STATIC SPOTS WILL NOT HARM SCRIPT MINERS. STATIC SPOTS WILL NOT HARM SCRIPT MINERS.

    That simple enough for you?
     
  24. Lord Frodo

    Lord Frodo Stratics Legend
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    the more Static spots the better chance that a HONEST player may get there before the scripter, its that simple enough for you.
     
  25. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
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    Frodo:
    My experience from when my shard had script miners is that

    Static spots GUARANTEED a non-scripter would RARELY get any ore from the most popular spots. Their scripts were set up to minimize the spots hit, and come back within seconds of a respawn.

    This was ESPECIALLY true for lumberjacking.
     
  26. Piotr

    Piotr Stratic's Finest
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    There is hope... :smile2:


    [Talia]: Nextly, has there been ANY discussion about turning off the randomization of resources?

    Mesanna says: nope we have not

    [Talia]: not even a teensy bit of it?

    Mesanna says: not we talked about it but then thought about the reason it was turned on in the first place

    Mesanna says: which was to deter scripters

    [Talia]: I understand, here on siege we take care of them as best we can

    [Mesanna]: I am not arguing it did not stop the scripters

    [Talia]: but I know it wouldn't be a switch just for siege

    Mesanna says: no I would do it for all shards

    [Talia]: okay, thanks for your time

    Mesanna says: its a royal pain to be honest with you

    Mesanna says: we will talk about reverting that though

    [Talia]: oh it is on our end too

    Mesanna says: well as a person that has a miner is it mine also

    [Talia]: frostwood is like, nowhere

    [Talia]: Thanks again!

    Mesanna says: I promise we will make a decision on this soon
     
  27. Victim of Siege

    Victim of Siege Grand Inquisitor
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    It Twitched, Kill it again!!
     
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  28. Alex"Drake Iron Heart"CS

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    What if we had a GGS for ore mining, in the sense that you given 1000 ingots of all ore regardless of where you mine, say spot one, gives 200 Iron, 150 Dulll, 125 copper...etc and so one, just getting 50 val of 1 single spot and then having to move to next spot and that spot giving some more till you hit your daily cap of 1000 ingots of every single ore. Once you reached your cap of all ore taken out, a message appears `` Your arms are too tired from all the mining┬┤┬┤
    That for one would stop mass flooding of the market of ore, also would make people think twice about selling it willy nilly as they might need it to make their armours or something.
    It encourages the new miner same as veteran miner, as they will both get same as long as they both GMs in skill, if the newer player hasn't reached GM, maybe he gets up to what he can extract.
    This also gets rid of the random ore generator, as we all get the same ore anywhere at anytime and there is no advantages to no one.
     
  29. Victim of Siege

    Victim of Siege Grand Inquisitor
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    let's quit making it complicated, turn off the randomized ore spots or leave it on. The scripters are going to script no matter what and have all the colored ore they need. Us non scripters will be the only ones affected by this either way.
     
    #29 Victim of Siege, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
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  30. Merus

    Merus Crazed Zealot
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    You only mine one spot per day?

    Back in the day people had books and books of runes for each ore type. The trouble was, the script miners often found those veins too... and mined them 24/7... Or don't you recall ALL the complaining because every spot the honest players marked were always mined out.

    My method resolves that issue. Mark 1 atlas for each type of ore and then go mine each spot each day then get back to me with how you won't be able to get the ore you need.

    No offense, but with the upfront effort to find the spots you would be able to mine just as much ore as you can now, and know exactly what you are going to get.
     
  31. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    If the solution is to over complicate things and turn it into an unfun grind ala making high seas cannon ammunition, then I'd rather see it left the way it is. Unfortunately, when the dev's step in to make things "more complex and fun" they actually turn it into a grindy over tedious cluster. So if the choice is between the devs coming up with a new system or leaving it alone - then leave it alone.

    No, turning ore back to static spawn will NOT stop the scripters. However, back when ore was static there were enough locations out there to find the ore you needed when you needed it. Sure, some of the popular spots were tied up 24/7, yes the price of ingots will drop due to increases in supply, BUT with the extreme decrease in player base individuals trying to do it right will be able to go out and get the color type the need with a little effort instead of praying to RNG Jesus that they can gather the amount they need in a timely fashion.
     
    #31 Veldrane, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
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  32. Tomarke

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    +1 for turning off randomization. I just want it back the way it was.
     
  33. Nexus

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    Why would you only have 1 spot marked? I think the point was, you knew every time you went there (once per day) you were going to get to mine Valorite Ore. Come to think of it, with a combination of a prospectors tool, and a gargoyle's pickaxe you'd be able to get a large amount of any material you want in a day, by bumping lower grade ores to with them if you had an extensive collection of marked Ore Locations.
     
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  34. MalagAste

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    +1 in favor of turning the randomization off especially on trees.
     
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  35. Lord Frodo

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    Even with all the Scripters running full tilt I still had enough rune books, at least 1 full book for all iron colors and wood that I was able to mine every type every day and now all my Val and Frost come from 4 each stumps and carts now that is sad.
     
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  36. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Yep. Which is why I said I need something that gives me stone.
     
  37. MoxZinnia

    MoxZinnia Adventurer

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    Would it work to have the random ore or wood stay for longer? That way if one discovered a spot that gave a rare resource, it could be harvested for longer. It's disappointing when it takes so long to find valorite spots, and one or two digs later they are gone. My miner is a warrior, not a mage, so I am not marking runes to go to the exact spot anyway. I go on foot with a fire beetle. I am fine with random resources as I can see problems with static resources also, but there should be a bigger payoff for actually going out and finding these veins.
     
  38. Lord Frodo

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    Just trying to find one in the first place looks to be an impossible task with the randomization, IMHO they made the high end stuff at most a %1 chance to spawn if that high. I had 16 Val spots and that took a lot of players and time to find so to have them random now you better have all the luck in the world riding on your shoulder to even find 1.
     
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  39. Tyrath

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    @Mesanna This has been my biggest P/O in all of UO I used to primarily a LJ and Miner. In tram or fel the scripters could be slowed way down by dropping a chest on the recall spot. In fel you had the option of just killing them. Now days the scripters just play the random odds and come out way ahead of the player who can't loop around the same 32 spots or just wall mine from a house close enough to a mountain side. Or put a little house in the middle of a big woods patch and set up rails to wander around chopping returning home to drop the load in the porch box. The random is not great for the scripters but it works out well enough that there is still profit in it. I still see a healthy population of scripters on prodo shards and a few on Siege they tend to die a lot on siege though :) Reverting this would be great for the real player, the scripters would probably get slowed down because the house wall mining would be worthless, and they would have to actually go out prospecting and marking runes.... Very time consuming for ores, really really really time consuming for woods. For those of us that are not scripting it would be no big deal and that magic of finding a FW or Valorite location would be back.........Not the wow will it last more than one regen or two?
     
  40. Tyrath

    Tyrath Grand Poobah
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    Same here :( Well and Merch ships give more val ignots in a few hours than mining does in a few months.
     
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  41. Tyrath

    Tyrath Grand Poobah
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    I always found blocking the scripters recall spot or just killing the scripter to work quite well.
     
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  42. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Yep.... there was always luring a bunch of mobs over by his recall spot and waiting for the fool to come back and die... that was always fun.
     
  43. Veldrane

    Veldrane Journeyman
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    While I'll remain cautiously optimistic, this forebodes of their solution to our concern being what I feared would happen - Coming up with something overly grindy and unfun. Least it is an additional change instead of the major concern I had of them hosing up the current mining predicament, lol
     
  44. Tyrath

    Tyrath Grand Poobah
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    Making it more complex than it is and what people want......... Simple solution for a simple problem........ Find line of code turn resource randomization off and everyone is happy end of story :)
     
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  45. Tomarke

    Tomarke Seasoned Veteran
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    Update the rewards for the BOD system...turn off randomization...much less work and I would be very happy.
     
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