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Bring Back Risk (DEVs hear me!)

Discussion in 'UO Spiels N Rants' started by Morgana LeFay (PoV), Feb 24, 2009.

  1. UO has turned into a mamby-pamby care-bear land!!

    Seriously!! When someone dies, their sh*t should stay on their corpse! And everyone should be able to loot it!!!

    You die = you lose your sh*t!

    Did anyone else play UO before 1999 besides me??!!!
  2. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Jul 1, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Come play darkfall...or else there is always Siege...(la!)
  3. Bazer

    Bazer Slightly Crazed
    Professional Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Oct 7, 2003
    Likes Received:
    wana loose your stuff? Siege and TheScoundrelRico is waiting for you.
  4. Bara

    Bara Guest

    Dude. Turn off your insurance.

    Experience the game the way you enjoy it.

    However, if you wish to force your preferences onto others...

    Well, lets just say that I enjoy choice. Seems a lot of people do.

    Yay for diversity. :)

  5. Yay for calling me a "Dude"?

    I am no dude!

    And...I am just trying to make this game better.

    Sorry you fail to see it.
  6. I play on Siege, sometimes. It just isn't the same.

    And DF=QuakeWorld

    No thanks.
  7. Heartseeker

    Heartseeker Guest

    I feel your pain Morgana.

    I know the game will not go back in time but I wish it had the risk it had before.

    Most of the people I played with many moons ago have left and I do miss them.

    The thing is I miss what the game was before.

    A whole lot of excitement.
  8. Bara

    Bara Guest

    Eeep. Sorry about that. I.. erm. I don't want to come across as trolling or anything, that's not my intention, but I thought the person in your avvy was a guy wearing makeup. :eek: That's why I made that assumption, and I'm sorry.
    I don't fail to see that you are trying to make this game better, in the way that you envision it, but from my perspective; you have the choice to play with no insurance. If you wish to experience the risk factor, then you are completly able to do this.

    I value the freedom to choose.

    It's honestly fantastic that this game allows so many playstyles. It empowers players with vast freedom.
  9. ??


    I think you are just trying to p!ss me off now.

    That's cool!

    I might do the same to someone I disagreed with. You are all right!

  10. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

    Mar 7, 2008
    Likes Received:
    This will not make the game better, your idea is stupid to say the least, people would quit uo and go to wow in a heart beat if they lost all there items, thats why siege is about died now.
  11. Bara

    Bara Guest

    I promise I'm not! Seriously. And I'm apologizing for making that conclusion/assumption.
  12. This is ME and I am not a "dude"!
  13. People have quit UO before, and they will from now on. I would bet that as many people that would quit UO would come back if the devs would bring back the old days!!

    At least they should bring back a "classic shard"!!!
  14. They all tell us it will never be the same, but I pay my subscription every month hoping that it will eventually return to what it was.

    I suppose I am wasting my money.
  15. Bara

    Bara Guest

    Hottie! :bowdown:

    This would rock.

    I think this would be a much better solution than sweeping away all insurance. Like I said before, I value choice highly. This would give old school lovers a broader choice than simply turning off insurance.

    The practical thing about insurance: the current uo is item based (I know that some people hate that it is, but it's true). Not just pvp, but high end pvm is quite demanding on gear. Back in the old days (I have experienced pre tram before), the good gear was nice, but never a necessity. These days, it is, if you're a non-tamer planning to try anything harder than a balron. Losing your gear can be devistating in ways that it never was in the old days.
  17. Snakeman

    Snakeman Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Jun 13, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Wish the wife would scorn at me like that still. Well she use to, like about 20 yrs ago :D.
    Nice pic my dear, my daughter & you look a lot alike :) (real, I mean real close)
  18. Valas

    Valas Guest

    Yup, but back in 1999 people wernt running around in 100mils worth of armour :p
  19. I will bet she is far prettier than me!!

    (we need pics!!)
  20. Yeah...that is true...but back then 10k = 1 mil, so maybe they did!
  21. And the Vodka runs out!!

    Time for bed everyone!

    Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day for UO!!!


  22. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    May 15, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Back in the Early Days, there was no Trammel. When you left the "protection of Lord British's guards" (i.e. the towns), you knew that there was a risk of being murdered. And that risk was not too low. To most players this risk, this feeling of danger, was essential for their gaming experience. On the other hand, PKing soon got out of hand (mostly due to cheating and abusing of flaws in the game mechanics) and a lot of players left UO because of that problem. That's why we don't want this system back!

    2 years later, Trammel was invented. Did it solve the problem? No! It created new ones. Either you go to Felucca and face the same old problems with people randomly PKing defenseless miners and adventurers, or using cheats and hacks for their advantage. Or you stay in Trammel where there's no risk whatsoever, no matter where you go (and I don't call monsters with their predictable AI a risk). Only, now the bad behavior is even more concentrated on Felucca.

    My conclusion is: This Trammel/Felucca solution was a massive failure!

    Of course, many people joined UO after the world had split, and they don't miss anything. Those are who you call "Trammies". They never would consider playing under Felucca ruleset (and I don't blame them!).

    To my opinion, the rampant PKing should have been countered with more intelligent solutions. Players should be given the tools to govern themselves and counter those problems with in-game features. Being a killer should be possible everywhere in the gaming world, but it also should have serious consequences depending on where and how the crime was committed. Just "being red", to my opinion, is not really a serious consequence.

    People should have the possibility to choose the amount of risk they're exposing themselves to. However, they should not have the possibility to switch off that risk completely.
  23. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Been said before and i'll say it again..

    Siege Perilous

    Been on siege 3 Years and cannot even stand the thought of even *Considering* playing production shards anymore.

    Yes we could use a little bigger population, but man! Its pretty sad when a shard of like 200 (MAYBE!) active players is the only thing that keeps me comming back to this game.

    Btw im a Hardcore pvper.. also why i like siege..

    Both my pvpers are Red And Factions.. so yeah

    Sure is nice when you actually risk something when you pvp.

    And to reply to the post above.. Yes siege does have some of thoes "Die Hard PKers" Who throughly enjoy the murdering of an innocent defenseless player.. But not many.. I personally am more inclined to Helping a New player than killing them.. Id rather they finish their char and then come out to die..

    Most of us are Pvpers.. (We like to fight thoes who can fight back)
  24. Warpig Inc

    Warpig Inc Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Jul 2, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I remember having little epic battles with just a demon before the slayers came about.

    There have been many threads of what was and made the game risky memory lane. Not changing anything that is already blessed or the use of the CBD. I could see taking away insurance and each player having 4 PBDs. Your favorite jewel set is going to suck up 2 right off the bat. Can have a huge sortment of blessed headgear. Couple of blessed shields (non channeling ones). Of course the weapon for fighters would use one. Rare lucky plp have the OBN Tally blessed to a charcter. Blessed boots robe and cloak for resist. Most mage books are blessed so they have 2 free to maintain a high LRC suit. Fighters would have 1 for the five neck down armor to bless.
  25. LordNoximos

    Stratics Veteran

    Jun 11, 2008
    Likes Received:

    You don't even PVP anymore, why does it matter to you if role players in Trammel drop their items? You can't loot there anyways.
  26. These threads never end eh... Well I played back in the old days, and as I always say, I liked UO back then and I like UO now, each has it's pros and cons.

    But I gotta say... As always... Why is risk "always" defined by someone getting someones stuff? Why is it always a monetary gain for the victor?

    Why is there never any other ideas to define "risk"?

    How about the risk of injury? ie stat loss? That would be a risk, no?

    How about the risk of damaging your equipment? ie item property loss? or un wearable until repaired? Or even items breaking?

    And the true meaning of risk? Death? Really dead... character GONE!???

    All sorts of ways to represent "risk"

    But it's always about personal gain... Funny huh?


    or greed?
  27. archite666

    archite666 Guest

    Yes come play siege!
  28. hawkeye_pike

    hawkeye_pike Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    May 15, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Although you people try to promote the rather deserted Siege shard over and over and over again, this topic has nothing to do with Siege. Siege Perilous is subject to a totally different type of playing. It is not only about PvP, the whole gameplay on Siege is much harder than on other shards. Please understand and accept that most players may not be interested in playing on Siege, no matter how hard you're trying to advertise it.
  29. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    You know what,

    I dont actually see a problem with peoples uninsured stuff staying on there bodies and when they turn to bones you can loot.

    Not only can i see this making the game more rewarding as in more risk (if you get something you want and die before/are too stupid to insure it you run the risk of loosing it.

    but i can also see it helping people working together, like in the days of old when i dropped a suit (expensive for the time) and had no way of returning to collect in time, the person i was with (not in guild or party) looted it for me and returned it! now he could have charged and i would have payed!!!

    I dunno i understand the point that there is no risk in UO anymore but i can see alot of people complaining (even if it made the game better people always complain) and eventually the devs pandering to the needs of the few over the many (just look at EM rewards) and reverting anyways.
  30. RibaIdry

    RibaIdry Visitor

    Feb 20, 2009
    Likes Received:
    They spent the first several years of the game screwing around with rep systems, and murder count systems, and stat loss. None of it worked, and then Everquest came out and just said "No PKing" and immediately took over as leader of the MMO market.
  31. Bara

    Bara Guest

    I always thought that straight up jail time would be the best deterant to excessive pk'ing.

    Not as in, you automatically go to jail, but give blues a method of "capturing" a pk after they defeat them... Then the pk has to spend time in jail based on how many kills they did.

    Probably would be abused to no end though.
  32. Ding, Ding, Ding.

    We have a winner!

    Sorry OP, no way, no how. Never gonna happen, and never should.
  33. Beer_Cayse

    Beer_Cayse Guest

    agreed ... insureance needs to go; stuff drops to corpse and loot rights after 60 seconds in Tram set, immediate in Fel.
  34. Hemisphere

    Hemisphere Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Sep 21, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Because it was just that - screwing around

    Hawkeye said intelligent system. The tram/fel divide basically allowed players to switch off PvP entirely. Comparitively the only other serious penalty they implimented (statloss) is *nothing*

    An intelligent system (in my mind) would allow for outright PKing on an extremely limited basis (ie if you get more than 10 counts, you don't go "red" but your character gets "jailed" for a *significant* amount of time (like a month).

    This would force PKs to really think about who they attack - is he REALLY worth taking a count for? The problem with PKing wasn't the ability to kill other players freely, but the ability to make a profession of it. A good red could kill thousands of players in a week! Being red was a badge of honour, statloss just meant reds would travel in packs - all of the "measures" put in place in the early days were a pile of ill-thought out tosh.

    If a player is limited to 10 kills per week (let's say) then those 10 kills are going to be used wisely - reskilling would never happen, and killing of weak and newbie characters would be almost unheard of, because the loot just wouldn't be worth the count.

    Other intelligent systems or modifications to this system might involve different penalties dependent on the innocence of the character you're killing.

    A completely pure character (one who has never killed or stolen from a player) might give you 5 counts. A player who has at some point stolen but never killed would give you 3 counts, with varying degrees based on guilt, up to players who regularly kill other players not giving you any counts at all.

    This would force PKs even more to assess their situations VERY carefully. If you already had 5 counts, just one fully innocent death would land you in jail for a month. Nothing but a personal vendetta, or a comissioned assassination, would make this kill worth the penalty.

    The key to this system (which I think is worth reiterating) is actual jail time. Time in which your character can no longer be used *at all*

    This is the only real deterrent to excessive murdering. That, or character deletion. RL rules apply here ;)
  35. Maplestone

    Maplestone Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jul 26, 2008
    Likes Received:
    *shakes head sadly*
    *moves on to other threads*
  36. I agree.
    But save your breath.
    All you get is come play siege. I did. Its quiet there, to quiet.

    The devs need to turn a new land into no insurance and loot on death. Make it great dangerous high risk realm. If you dont want to go, dont go.

    No blessed items. No uber gear. Just players in GM stuff, ready to search the land for wonders. Monster battles will be harder, we wont be all jacked up.

    The PvP wont have elite gear.

    Its a game, who cares if you lose some basic garbage.

    NO RISK leads to oh thank you for my pixel crack.
  37. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    *sighs, shakes head*

    It seems we stood and talked like this before
    We looked at each other in the same way then
    But I can't remember where or when

    The clothes you're wearing are the clothes you wore
    The smile you are smiling you were smiling then
    But I can't remember where or when

    I guess I vowed to stay out of these discussions, because I tend to not do so well in discussions that are based upon romance rather than reality. However, were I to involve myself I would point out that classic shards are problematic because the number of players that would come back cannot possibly be worth the aggravation of having yet another shard with a separate rules set to run and because not everyone agrees on what time period to use for such a shard; that the game as is needs insurance and like mechanisms the same way the game as it was needed lack of permanent skill loss upon death; that Age of Shadows has been around for some time and it's kind of time to get used to it; etc.

    -Galen's player
  38. RibaIdry

    RibaIdry Visitor

    Feb 20, 2009
    Likes Received:
    Punishing the carebears with PK deaths, and punishing the killers with crushing murder penalties, just means you're punishing your entire playerbase and waiting for them to be stolen away by competitors. So what if your system reduces the number of times I get ganked? It's 1999, Everquest just came out, and it has zero ganking!
  39. Ni-

    Ni- Guest

    I don't really care if insurance stays or goes, I'll adjust my play style. I'm fine with dealing with my own stupidity. I'm not a big fan of dealing with the adolescence of other people who can only enjoy their game by ruining others. I don't like the idea of being able to loot other people in Trammel.

    I started playing mid 98. I know what it was like before Trammel. Before Trammel I experienced maybe 5% of the game. Inpart because I followed all of the 'rules'. The 'rules' of protecting yourself from thieves; travel outside of town at your own risk; travel outside of town with friends; only carry with you what you don't mind losing; avoid 'hot spots'(dungeons, cross roads/main roads, IDOCs, ...). Since Trammel, I estimate that I have experience about 85% of the game.

    I find that I can enjoy the game alot more if I don't have to stress out about all of the above. I don't play this game to get wealthy, or to match my talents againts other people, or grief other people. I play this game to relax and experience most of what the game offers to my play style.

    I'm not going to say how this game should be. I do like the choice of play styles. However, if UO is changed to no longer offer me the choice of my play style, then I'll have some personal decisions to make.

    O.T.P.S. OP=cuttie :D
  40. Hemisphere

    Hemisphere Always Present
    Stratics Veteran

    Sep 21, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Call it "punishing carebears" if you like, but death is a part of any world. If you want to kill someone, you should be able to take a calculated decision to do that, and then face realistic consequences.

    I understand that for some players a game with absolutely zero risk is more appealing, but I believe this is deterimental to the long term health, fun, and immersion of a game world.

    I think what upsets a lot of people is that UO is one of the few online worlds which had the potential to be MORE than just another Diablo clone. It had serious potential as a unique and fascinating world, which was squandered in a vain attempt at bringing it further into the "mainstream".

    A system like the one I proposed, compared to the introduction of Trammel, is in NO way a "crushing penalty" for murderers.

    It would allow people to fight all they like, all day long, with absolutely no penalties, with consenting PvPers such as now make up about 95% (or more?) of the Felucca population, barely bothering non PvPers at all, but rather than artificially segregating the community (THE WORST THING THAT CAN EVER HAPPEN IN AN MMO), it allows the two different playstyles to coexist relatively peacefully, without breaking the immersion which the Tram/Fel divide - and indeed the entire Tram/AoS rulesets - utterly shattered.
  41. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    I would rather see insurance stay, but see a faster decay time/open looting of corpse when bones in BOTH facets.

    that way you can still loose, and others gain.

    Or you will bring some people together to try to help you regain your items...


    No risk of the big bad reds coming to kill you and loot your stuff!!!but if your not sensible, anyone can reap the benefit of your loss.
  42. TheScoundrelRico

    TheScoundrelRico Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Secret Society

    Aug 12, 2001
    Likes Received:
    I'm beta testing Darkfall too, so beware. Granted I can't steal your stuff, but i sure can try to kill you to get it.

    Come look for Reekoh Bilekiller (the orc)...la
  43. Saris

    Saris Guest

    I dont know every time they (OSI) or (EA) listnes to its playerbase we screw everything up. What makes UO unique is a huge combintaions of things that is very hard pin down.

    I say keep the item inssurance cause i dont want 90% of the current player base to go play WAR or WOW.

    I am not sure though, the game must continue to evolve and change or it will die, even if that change hurts a large number of players.

    UO is not a niche game, its a game for everyone, it was a grand experiemnt to see if the world was ready for the mmo age.

    I remeber i was always naked, I picked up whatever sword I could find, throngs of folks in there skivies would fight over ettins, I would spend 3 hours in a dungeon working hard trying to fight liches and lichlords when no one had any gear that could match them, only to come out of the dungeon to wacked by a group of pks at the entrance, why should they get all my loot i worked hard for? SO i mined and I eneded up fighting non stop to protect my ore. I do have fond memories the past but alot of bad tastes as well.

    Also I could take a balron back in the day :) Took a bit of playing and skilling up but it was before tram when i downed my first,
  44. GhostGL

    GhostGL Guest

    Play only in fel, don't use lrc stuff only use regs. Never insure a item, never wear anything blessed. Don't use anything after tram came around. Play like that for awhile and see if you don't miss having insurance/blessed stuff. Oh also your house, leave it public have secure chests but have them where anyone can access them.

    I really don't understand people who think like this. I started playing back in beta. And back when it was just fel, i died and lost stuff all the time, yeah it sucked but you had nothing like the stuff we have now, aof, sorc armor, etc etc. Back then it was easy to replace your stuff, i didn't even really think about it i just ran bought more armor etc from a smith and went on. But now the stuff we use costs millions and it's not like you can just run to a smith etc and replace it. Maybe "most" people just buy their gold online so their always loaded, but i earn my gold in game. I wouldn't even want to try and think about replacing everything my mage wears. Unless i just had a house loaded with backups of everything he uses.

  45. Ok so whats the reward for such lands. I've seen countless threds about the unfair advantage large fel guilds have. Who do you think is going to be running around in this new land. The big guilds at first pking and stealing items, than the land will be empty cause the tired of zerg guild controling such area. If they drop insurance make it both rune sets and make it so you can loot trammie stuff too.
  46. Green Meanie

    Green Meanie Guest

    :love:erm yes hottie can i have your phone number :love:

    As for no insurance i started this game after there was insurance however i would be more than glad to see it go if i could still reasonable have my itemized suits. This sounds completly possible with the imbuing system thats comming out.

    However the immbuing system to me sounds like it is going to be a long drawn out proccess. So maybe not. I would be willing to lose my entire suit Uber suit in fel if it could be replaced in 6-10 hours of hard work and if decient suits could be gathered in 1-2 hours of light work.

    It would create new job opertunitys for are "carebears" they could farm what i need to build an uber suit all day long and i can buy it from them or sell them my powerscrolls.

    finalize my point i dont mind losing everything if i dont have to spend 2-4 years rebuilding
  47. SouthernRageLNR

    SouthernRageLNR Visitor

    Mar 7, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Are you serious? I promise you if UO turned off insurance today and everyone started losing items they worked years to earn it would be the end of uo, you would have to buy a tombstone for the game cause it really would be dead then.
  48. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Jul 16, 2003
    Likes Received:
    You could always go with an "ultimate risk" system. Make it to where that, for every count you have while red, there is a 1% chance your character perma-dies the next time you die after receiving a count.

    It won't kick in until you're red, but would count all counts that haven't worn off.

    So, if you're Red and at 12 counts, then you get count #13, the next time you die, there will be a 13% chance of your character being deleted (with the corpse and all its non-insured gear remaining behind - everything bless and insured is deleted with the character). You couldn't use the slot again for a week. For SP, the count times would be reduced, and the slot reusable 24 hours later.

    It would take a lot of the blessed & insured junk out of the economy as well...

    Of course, as a Trammie, I personally believe Fel is all-risk, no reward for my fellow Trammies, and no risk, all reward for the PKs (even before insurance).

  49. I have been trying to state this for years, ever since the start of AoS.

    ♠A pre UO:R server would be amazing. Seeing as there is only one shard, Siege, that has a strictly Fel ruleset.

    ♠UO:R, before Pub 16 (Stat scrolls, etc.) would be just as good in my book though, you still get your Tram along with WBB.

    ♠You get your Chaos vs. Order system back.

    ♠You get your guildwars back, the way they used to be before this broken system. No more alliances.

    ♠Big guilds weren't all that rampant back then, and the choke style fighting was pretty much null and void.

    ♠You get the old stat loss for PK's, you die, you lose a percentage of your skills. Forcing you to rework them.

    ♠You get the old bounty system back.

    ♠You don't have to worry about spending millions on armor and weapons to go out and fight.

    ♠Most of all to me, thieves are yet again useful and effective.
    I truly miss my old disarm thief mage. Though I spent a lot of time burning counts and reworking skills due to stat loss, heh.

    I honestly believe if an old style server was made, that it would bring back a lot of old faces and maybe a semi resurgence of UO in the MMO market.

    Feel free to post stuff I missed that was great about the old days in support of this idea.

    Oh and before anyone goes and says that nobody will leave the items behind. I have at least one of the better mage suits on this game and I would gladly drop everything I own across all servers, just to have an old style server back. Free servers are not the answer here.