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Classic Servers - Revised

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Khaotic Carnifex, Aug 16, 2010.

  1. Logically, everyone wants something from pre-aos. That is fine. I understand the emotions on that. Is this what will cause a complete turn of heads to join? No.

    I have been a long time player, but I quit, as the systems were getting out of control. PvP and PvM was becoming unbalanced by far. The new magic properties and artifacts were also getting a little ridiculous as well. How many times can you upgrade an artifact? "Well it was a great item before, but if you join the factions system you can get the same thing, but enhanced more!!!" What if I didn't like the new factions system? I guess I would be penalized unless I spent millions of gold to get the new rares. Which is never truly an issue, it's more the concept of lack of creativity on the dev's part to just implement new gear. How hard is it to just rename something and give it different properties? Okay, I am rambling about why I quit vs the topic.

    Now back to the topic at hand. I have reviewed what people want, it's not conceivable on a marketting angle for EA or Mythic. Taking away new art, animations, maps (This should be a personal decision from EA Mythic on what should be done here), and gump art... might be too much to lose for new players or returning ones.

    Here is something a slight bit more sellable to RPGers, old players, current, returning.

    • Leave in the new monsters/item art/ etc. It was a smart move. Especially the new player races. Add in Bobbits, Dwarves, and Eants(sp)!
    • Remove all item properties used from Age of Shadows and onward.
    • Revert damage on equipment back to the old formulas. (This is easy, just double the min and max damage values and you will see it matchs the old damage calculations).
    • Revert all magic items from ruin to vanq and do the same with the armor (Invul to hardening).
    • Bring back the old magic staves, wands, and special clothing and accessories.
    • Implement the above into the new items including talismans, etc.
    • Return the 2x spell damage to enemy mobiles, but retain the standard for pvp.
    • Go back to the old requirements and abilities of weapons, not the new weapon primary and seconday abilities.
    • Spells should use the old formulas, including mana consumption and cast times.
    • Housing... I am caught on this one. The custom is nice for people who like to do it and do it right, but... a lot of people design something super fast and don't care if it is gaudy. I suggest some thought on this one.
    • Pet slots should be maintained or you will have the old griping over 40 polar bears tearing up new players. I think the pet slots were a balance.
    • If pet slots are maintained, add options for enhancing to a higher amount than the current amount to keep too many from complaining.
    • Pet bonding is another interesting topic, I'd rather see it gone, but again, EA Marketting decision is to be made there.
    • Insurance MUST go. It has always been an unfair implement for the unskilled.
    • Bring back old guild stones.
    • Factions + Alignment factions (Chaos and Order) should be implemented.
    • (Optional) Include the town system I keep reading about (Possibly link with factions)
    • I don't see an issue with scrolls of power. I don't know why it would be asked to be removed. It doesn't ruin balance.
    • I don't see the issue with any new skills/spells. Long as they are reverted to the old systems (Not hard to do).
    • With removal of item properties would come a change for crafters, this can be approached in a couple ways. Either revert to the old and let them repair things from their craft, or possibly add in a crafting of the old magic items.
    • Since Mystic weapons came with the Ophidian invasion, why not implement them to be a step higher than vanquishing?
    • Stat and skill controls (IE ability to set skills/stats to raise, lower and lock)
    • (Optional) Stat loss and long term murder counts for reds (stat loss on resurrection)
    • I do agree with repair contracts being removed, but understand the need for them as well. That should be a development decision.
    • I agree with no character transfers. Unless from another classic server if there is more than one.
    • Allow BOD's to stay for crafters who need things to do, just modify the rewards.
    • Runics, should go, unless... Either A, use them ONLY to repair magic items or B, leave them in place if a system for crafting magic items is implemented.
    • I read no bless deeds? They were around a long time ago. That is just someones personal gripe. Allow them for veteran rewards or event moderator awards or something, but be greedy with there amount in release.
    • Keep your new arena systems, it adds spice.
    • Remove the Facets, just have guarded areas, even if all maps are used.(Everywhere should be fair game for PvE, minus guarded towns.)
    • (Optional)Remove resistance system
    • (Optional) New quests and a possible new bounty system?

    NOTE: If you cannot find your old system formulas, the way back machine for www.uo.com and stratics has them plain and clear. Perfectly defined formulas too.

    I am not just saying this a player who came in the beginning and who has been on and off. I say this also as a coder (Years with the community, mind you and worked on a good bit of the permanent script codes in the packs) for a UO emulator, which will remained unnamed, that has been around for a long long time.

    I know one thing, if at least half of this list was completed, you would probably see not only more join, but also a possible return from most of the players who left to other UO Emulators. As any old developer from UO knows, that is where a good portion of players went over the years, not just to other MMO's.

    Though me saying what I just did might get me in trouble on here, I am cheering EA on to bring back the old systems. They maintained them better than we do. Honestly, you all do. Where there are hundreds of UO emu servers and players scattered everywhere; they are scattered and not concentrated. We might code things with new ideas long before you all, we just have too many "kids" who think they can script/code and run a server that cannot. Thus the decline in emulator popularity as well.

    Mind you, even rebalancing the current servers you all have would bring back your AoS system lovers as well, but that is another list for another time. That should also be put into perspective after the decision on the classic is made.

    If we could do this change (Us in the emu community), which a lot of us have, EA can too. We balanced the new with the old. We redid the spell systems, skills, items, npc's, combat systems, etc. The company I work with, a small handful, yes I do mean small handful of us did a whole revision from the new system to the old and we perfectly emulated your new systems as well. We didn't get paid to do this 8 hours plus a day. We did it in our free time, while working, maintaining families, college, and having fun. We did this, by the way, in no time at all. It started out a pain... but once we emulated both the old and new combat, spell, skill, and crafting systems... it was cake from there. No, this did not take years either. A lot less time than you can imagine, since most of us got bored one day and myself and two others emulated both the old and new combat and spell systems in but a week.

    Let me stop tooting our horn and building our ego's. This is not the goal here.

    Like I said, I am rooting for you all, but you all need to make this decision and figure out the loss on the servers you have now. Yes, calculate the loss. As you need to figure out how many will leave servers to play a classic and than a calculation on returning players for classic as well should be estimated. I don't blame you for handling this with kid gloves. I would too. This can either be a boon on budget or the greatest marketting strategy yet for the UO populace.

    Another piece of food for thought, have you thought about consolidating your low population servers? I know there is always something to offer to players to get them to move (Free transfers to "x" server during a limited time to raise population). It's always something to consider to bring back some players with active accounts who don't play as much because of low populations.

    Well, I am done ranting. Lock this thread or remove it. Just please review it with an open mind. I am available by email (Only devs should be allowed to email me, I dont want to hear anyone COMPLAIN about what I wrote. You all are gamers, I'm a coder/developer/Web Designer, as the EA dev's would listen to you, I have heard it all for years... so it will fall on deaf ears), I won't monitor this thread much. I am a very busy man, but I would return myself for either a classic server or at least a rebalancing of the current system.

    Thank you all for your time. I am serious, make a strong enough change and a good portion of emulator players would most likely return. They monitor this and other uo sites to update their servers anyhow... keep that in mind ;)
  2. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jun 19, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Presuming I take your point of view at face value, I have to ask:

    If running a "Classic Server" that you guys all programmed from the ground up is such a viable thing for Electronic Arts to go ahead with, and would be guaranteed subscribers who are just dieing to pay EA $12.99 to play on a classic server, then why didn't you guys who have so clearly perfected the art of emulation and developing rich game systems and a viable game on your own time sit down and, you know, develop your own game in the style that you desired, find a client programmer or two, and create a game that had what you felt were UO's best qualities, but exist in an original world of your own devising?

    I mean, you've clearly done all of the server-side stuff. A client can't be that difficult by comparison. And since you had folks doing this in their spare time, surely finding a world-builder or two, a couple of artists, and some storybuilders who could have sat down together and created a rich, vibrant world that is marketable, wouldn't be that hard, right?

    I mean... your entire argument is based on "We did it, EA could too, and we think it's viable, so EA should too." But there's quite a difference between the level of quality people will accept from a free game and what they will accept for one they're actually paying for (though I suppose with the number of pompom wavers around here, you could probably argue I'm incorrect on that assertion).

    If it's so viable, why haven't you all launched your own game and started making money on this huge segment of people who are willing to pay for this game experience? It can't be that they're willing to pay for it simply because of the Ultima franchise name -- if it's so viable, they'd play it regardless of setting.

    So is it really as viable as you claim?
  3. Yes, it is viable. Most of us did it through a soft coded system. EA well knows who we are. As there is only two big emulators who even work with UO anymore, all the others were too small to be of consequence. So I know for a fact the devs who read this know of which emulators we all belong too.

    The emulators have two teams. Hardcoders and softcoders. I don't have time for hardcoding, especially since most of the bugs were worked out of the kinks. Now it's just small things they add with some cool new features here and there upon logical request. I was one of the softcoders who were on a special project and was an original alpha tester/scripter for the company before they started allowing coders the option to test the nightly builds.

    To emulate with code that was allowed to the companies over a decade ago, is something that is not hard to do. I spend my college time learning databasing, network engineering, web design and graphic design. I would have loved to have done actual game coding for a living, but I think I would not like it to be a job. That is the HONEST truth on that point. The games would lose their fun factor. Though I have considered working with this free server company as a hardcoding developer for a few weeks now. I was told I'd be welcome to join.

    As I was saying though, with the hardcoding in place and enhanced by those who do work for gaming companies, allowed us, who spent years learning game code the option to help them with the soft coding. Which was a great experience.

    Now as for the question "why not make your own game?", well this company did. But because it was at no cost to a player, it didn't last long. It was a side project which went well at first minus funding. The owner of the company, whom I cannot speak for, never advertised from what I saw and saw it as a cool learning experience. I think he himself works/runs a game company. Not sure, he has handed his emulator off to his dev's to maintain for years now.

    Another thing to note is, if you read it all, you would know that most of us did this in our spare time. Is there something you are super good at and don't get paid to do? Let me ask you, why aren't you doing it for a living? Why don't you get paid for it? It's fun right? Don't want it to become a job? Then I think you can understand where some of us come from. I would hate UO if I spent everyday coding for them. I would never play and would probably despise my job.

    A close friend of mine became a game programmer, he almost quit gaming because of it. He said it took away the fun from playing them.

    As I said, I won't name drop the company/site. EA Mythic knows the two sites who have accomplished this. They also know most of the additions they are adding, have been on these sites for awhile. IE the new arenas... ask them to add in Capture the Flag, Paint Ball, and other events. Im sure they know where to find the code on our forums.

    Not trying to be a jerk, but if you took my view and knew where I went off too when AoS came out, and retreated back to again when I got tired of hearing about SA being pushed back... then you'd know I am not lieing.

    PS when I said we emulated, I mean perfectly. So the level of quality was the same. In exactness, if not with some minor balance tweaks and perks to add to it. So I do kind of resent that statement. We breathe quality, if I didn't, that list above could be super unreasonable and well unbalanced in approach. As well as not as defined and organized. I could have asked for "More leet weapons man, with some Rp flavor, and oh oh can we get Dark Fathers as tamables in this classic version? I could RP them as my slaves since I have beaten him Nth times. Oh what about allowing me to create my own custom titles?!!!" There is an uneducated, unbalanced request, that lacks quality or a brain, which PS EA and other companies hear from a good 50% plus of their player bases in games.
  4. Also, as I said, I wasn't trying to toot our horns and pom pom wave. It was not the goal. I am saying they can do this. There should be small to little debate on can they or how. It should just be on marketing alone.

    As for charging money? LOL... I wouldn't pay $12.99 for whats out now in most games. Not since Dungeons and Dragons Online is free, Ragnarok Online, and a plethora of other good games (They are not GREAT, no they don't work like uo either), but they are free and they make their money through their online stores. Offering up services and perks that still are balanced there. Turbine and other companies do well not charging monthly; you think other companies couldn't do the same with the same results?

    Though I would probably pay that $12.99 a month for UO. More out of nostalgia and good game play if it was balanced right.


    Another note to add to this lovely arguement, this was not a thread to hear you cry about why aren't YOU doing it. It was to help with the ideas for marketing the classic with reasonable and balanced changes. You just completely blew past that whole point. Why not quit complaining and just voice your opinion on the above information on the changes.

    Also, you asking all that non-sense, is really stupid. You might as well ask every indie game maker who makes nothing from their excellent games why they dont get paid for it. They will say as I did above. It's for fun or they are a fan of the games they recreate.

    This is also why I said I should have deaf ears to people like you. I have heard all this, tons of free game coder, developers, animators have as well.

    Here is a question? Why does it matter? Should we build a game you want to see? Let me guess UO:X should be resurrected... and oh we should use the unreal engine to do it since it's a free engine which can pull off top notch graphics and process code fast!

    How about you volunteer 2 hours of your day to coding for us, then I will give you my messenger info so you can ask me a million questions, then when you get tired of messing up... tell me you don't want to do it anymore and it's no fun because you don't know how or you don't get paid. Maybe you will like it, but decide you don't have $80,000 to blow on the college degree to become a game programmer with certifications and degrees... then what?

    You'd be no better then myself and any other free game coder who learned it all in their spare time to enrich their gaming experience and provide some fun for those who appreciate the work you did. That's what makes most of stick with our emulator.
  5. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jun 19, 2002
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    To be honest, the idea of not wanting something I enjoy doing becoming a job is completely foreign to me. There were things that, growing up, I did for fun, and these are the things that I developed skills in, and later got paid for them. From graphic design to web design to programming, and hopefully in the future, game art and game design, I most sincerely would want my favorite hobbies to become my jobs because they're something I enjoy doing, something I'm good at, and therefore something I would continue to enjoy doing once I was being paid for them.

    I've worked for a rather large gaming company for nearly a decade, in marketing, in graphic design, in web design, in programming, and I can tell you that while no job is ever devoid of things that might stress you out, I'd much rather be stressed out about something I enjoy than something I hate.

    In short, why in the world would I want to work doing something I don't enjoy?

    Sure, you start viewing games in a different light once you start programming them, but if truly you enjoy playing games, then you can separate yourself from gamer and programmer.

    But... the code on your forums isn't necessarily compatible with code for their server. I mean, I know at least one emulator runs on .NET -- I'm certain UO isn't a .NET environment. I'm also certain that the two big emulators I'm aware of don't use the same scripting language as UO. It's not as easy as "it's been done, just implement it here." And while some of the things might be fine for emulators because they're individually targeted by server at niche audiences, certainly things like "paint ball" probably don't belong in UO at all.

    I'm not implying that you're telling any lies whatsoever. I'm simply saying that just because something was viable in an emulator environment doesn't make it automatically viable in UO's environment. I will admit, there are things that boggle my mind that EA's done on a whole that should probably have been implemented long ago, but on the other hand, EA's got a business model that they don't fully understand with UO, and on top of that, they are constantly trying to balance bug, feature, and expansion content with each other, and must do so on a scale that means they hopefully make money on it.

    Impossible. Unless you had a source copy of UO's server code to work with, that's completely and totally impossible. You've certainly rendered as close to perfection as you may get without seeing source code, and certainly it may pass as "perfect" to player perception, but honestly, given the other things you say you've implemented above and beyond UO, it can't even be considered a perfect emulation because it's functioning outside of the original parameters.

    Now, I'm not saying what you did wasn't quality work, and I don't mean to imply that either by saying that your emulation isn't perfect. Just because it was quality work doesn't mean it's viable work in the context of what EA could do with your work.

    Oh, believe me, I completely understand you have to balance what's good for the game as a whole with what people are requesting to be added. There are a lot of armchair designers out there who think, "Well, it would be cool if..." and unfortunately most of the time, no, it wouldn't be cool at all.

    On the other hand, wise game companies do listen to the suggestions that come in and look for ways to implement things that enhance the player experience. I mean, by now, in the modern MMO era, we know that for a persistent state world to persist, that it must evolve and expand. And certainly, as I've said elsewhere, there are lessons to be learned from the classic era, perhaps even things that could be brought forward, but there are also solid reasons that a great many of the changes that happened were made. Maybe they weren't made in the best spirit of keeping the player certain of what was coming (Trammel, AoS), but they were necessary adaptations to the game structure (Trammel literally made UO viable again, and AoS itemization, while introduced poorly, was a necessary evolution to UO in order to keep interest in the game, and to remove limitation on weaponry and armor -- now, they certain could improve what they've done, but that doesn't make it a mistake either).

    In short, yes, I understand the desire of some people for classic era gameplay. No, I don't think it's a viable direction to pursue, but I do think they could learn and implement some historical stuff back into the game.
  6. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Feb 20, 2006
    Likes Received:
    Classic Shard -

    Pre T2A
    No arties, no PoF,no scrolls at all, no sot's, no SoA's, No Elfs,No Gargolyes, just bare bones UO as it opened.
    Yes to Liches runing around free, yes to the Cockatreeses too.

    I guarantee you this if the Dev was smart they would go back to the first original code that started in '97.

    I would love to see what would happen if you went back to the world I helped open.
    That is a Classic shard model. The anchients who clammor for it, I understand the wish. But for the newer who wish they were there... Watch what you wish for, cause you just might get it..... in more ways then your mind set is willing to do.
  7. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    May 14, 2008
    Likes Received:
    This Thread is a FAIL.....

    Why? bc I don't think a single reply so far is less than 1,000 words....

    Diversity is the Spice of life.... without item properties this game would have died AGES ago. It only takes so long to get a GM crafted suit of armor and a Vanq weapon...
  8. Forgive my retorts earlier. I didn't realize I wasn't speaking to some kid (No offense).

    I meant to recreate perfectly not in whole as in to match the code. Though as you brought up, I did say we made changes, but most changes that the team that I work with make come with on and off options for every aspect. We tried to also offer complete customization for those using our scripts.

    From what I understand our hardcoding actually is the old hardcoding from when it was run by Richard Garriott, but I could be mistaken. I would not like to be quoted on that.

    And you almost nailed which company I am with ;). You will figure out what I meant by that. I can't quote your term or else someone else might figure it out as well.

    No the code on our forums is no compatable. You are right. As well as it shouldn't be. But the idea's are there. Just like our soft code is no where near what the hardcode is either. It far from looks the same. I think you know that though.

    Yes, I understand EA's issue with UO. Then again, they have had it for a long time now and you would think they would have it down by now. So we would hope. As with any company though, new employees, new issues, new ideas, new hopes, lost hopes. You know the routine.

    By the way I am glad to hear you do just about everything I do in your work environment. As I do love to do what I do (Web design, graphic design, and network engineering... and my pt non-pay game coding). I just cant see me doing the game coding for a living without hating it. I have somewhat been ruined on some games because of it. Friend: "Wow those creatures came out of no where, and they are going to swoop down and kill us". Me: "No, we stumbled across an area with a trigger releasing them, they follow some form of plan, nothing is super random, and we can take them out easily. If you run over there behind that object they might not programmed to follow so far and you can wipe them out" Friend: "You are ruining the fun".

    As for your closing statement: I think a Classic server should be made, while rebalancing and adding to what they have as well. I think as I said, they should cut a couple servers and consolidate the populations. I believe they won't lose money bringing back the classic, but would have twice the work when making an expansion. Another thing to look at. Then again, I have taken UO classic and added tons of cool things to it. At least on my home server. Just like we also played with adding other games concepts to the AoS System which came out perfectly. It was fun.

    I know my old personal server team, from long ago, we made a ton of cool things which I still won't release. It's just one of those things you never want to let out... because it ruins some of the magic in which you create. You know?
  9. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jun 19, 2002
    Likes Received:
    Honestly, there's no way they could successfully market Ultima Online Classic in 2010 and expect more than a handful of players to come back for a short amount of time. Quite frankly, unless it were offered as a web game or a download on Xbox Live, there is a severe shortage of people who would look at the graphics of Ultima Online (even production) and get past them into the meat of the game.

    Well, except that's the real truth of the Free To Play model, isn't it? They're not at all free to play. There are still expectations of making money, they're simply choosing a different avenue to do so. The good news (at least for now) is that it's working for some of those games, and so they're able to continue to subsist and exist. But while yes, technically, the games can be played "for free," most have restrictions of some sort, and those that don't tend to offer the best items or upgrades via pay only, and they're counting on those dangling bits of whatever to bring revenue in. Were they to get those dangling bits wrong, it certainly would adversely affect the game, and put them in dire situations.

    I'm not crying that you're not doing it, I'm illustrating that something you claim to be viable has not yet been proven to be viable in any other form anywhere. Your grounds for why this is a solid, marketable idea is based on your experience in the emulator industry; if it was such a solid, marketable idea, then certainly someone in the ten years following the introduction of Trammel would have found the way to make a game that brought all of the classic elements of UO together in a new game format and launched it. The fact that they haven't does sort of point to the theory that it's not as viable as a lot of people are claiming it is.

    Okay, and as you keep pointing out, they don't get paid for it. If they're not getting paid for it, it does, by definition, mean there's also not revenue coming in from it. Sure, you can go around and recreate classic experiences as much as you want from any old game you feel like. It doesn't mean that the ability to recreate that vision means that it's a viable, marketable idea. If it were viable and marketable, those indie games you're speaking of would be programmed for free, and then marketed like there's no tomorrow and they'd be getting their money back. By the way, there ARE lots of indie programmers who DO make games and who DO get paid for it because they take the time to make a quality product and put it out on services that do allow them to get paid in some fashion for their work.

    Obviously, an emulator product can't legally make money on someone else's IP, however, a game taking the core of another game and putting an entirely new wrapper around it wouldn't exactly be industry-breaking news. Blizzard does it all the time. They aren't innovative, they simply take the time to release a super quality product, and because of that, they're probably the most successful video game company (at least here in the US) ever.

    Then have deaf ears. Sure, tons of free game coder, free developers, free animators do lots of work because they enjoy their craft, and have fun doing it. Just because something can be done for free doesn't mean that it's a viable source of income.

    And again, Free To Play does not mean Free, nor does it mean that there is no income involved. I mean, you even illustrate above that you know this to be true by stating how they do get their income for these games.

    I love how you're accusing me of crying about stuff, and then you fly way off tangent to UO:X. You know what, I play games that I enjoy playing. If a game is no longer fun, I stop playing. If it's a game I'm invested in, I have opinions on its development, and I voice them. No big deal. But why my questions above matter are purely at the heart of viable vs. nonviable. Your argument, again, is based on "it's been done in the emulator community, thus it should be done by EA." Except EA expects to make money from it -- no one in the emulator community has that expectation (and if they do, they better get a lawyer). You also think that because a bunch of people do something in their spare time, EA, who is being paid for it, should be able to do it because they're being paid. But here, again, is the crux of the issue: EA must decide if it's a viable source of income before they spend money on it. You've already jumped to, "Well, we did it in the emulator community, thus it's viable, thus EA should just do it." But you have provided zero empirical evidence as to why it is actually a viable source of income.

    Uh... well, now that you're clearly foaming at the mouth, as I've stated in response to your other response, I actually have done coding for a living. And, you know, I'm actually currently "blowing" $75,000 on my degree in video game art. I've also got about 15 years industry experience in a wide variety of graphics, web, and coding jobs. I still enjoy doing them. So, uh, I don't know... did you have a point there? I'm guessing not.

    Okay, I appreciate that you're a free game coder who did something that others enjoyed. I also know from both personal and professional experience that nothing you do will ever appease everyone that will have interaction with whatever you're working on. But, when you do something professionally, you also understand that while you can't please everyone, you work to please your target audience, and that you sometimes have to make hard decisions for the greater good of something regardless of how much you might like to do it some other way.

    And yet again... just because it was viable in a niche emulator audience doesn't equate to it being viable in a large-scale financial endeavor. Sure, there's plenty that EA could learn from emulators, but you and I both know that not everything that is in the emulator community would (1) work well in a production environment or (2) belong in a production environment (speaking of UO as that production environment). I mean, one of the very core fundamentals of both major UO emulators is that they are customizable -- this means that each implementation of an emulated UO shard can be different from another, and markedly different from Ultima Online. So, should EA just put out 50 servers with 25 different rulesets and try to please everyone? It'd never happen. And it would never be financially viable. This is a core, fundamental difference between "fan gaming" and gaming.
  10. Now you are wrong as well. All they would have to do is bring back some of the old event moderator items. Make drop rates increasingly more painful for better items and it would be as it is now.

    I mean seriously? You think even now you can't get most of the BEST ITEMS in the game in a day or so of grinding? If you say no, then you FAIL. It means you suck at UO in the first place. You can grind peerless solo with the proper template and gear and get anything you want, as well as some champions (bring a small group to level the critters asap).

    Now-a-days there is no skill in UO. Just who has the best gear, who built a smart template, and who knows the formulas in and out to abuse the system in PVP. As I said you can gear up in a day or so. Omg you might have to grind skills for ... oh no 4 days at the worst...

    At least classic uo, you need some skill to play. This, you really dont. Logical system abuse of things that arent bugs or exploits are simple to do.

    Study the formulas, gear, and item properties and races for a week in and out and you will master it.
  12. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Apr 2, 2006
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    To OP, if you are who you say you are prove it by posting on your emulator site forum and then posting the link here. Easy takes 20 seconds.

    Then everyone will know that at least one of the major emulators backs an EA Classic shard. Otherwise all this is is astroturfing.
  13. RaDian FlGith

    RaDian FlGith Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jun 19, 2002
    Likes Received:
    No offense taken. Forums conversations are hard to judge. :)

    Well, and in many ways, your code may actually be superior at its base than what UO presently runs on. They *must* have cleaned up some of the old spaghetti code that they frequently refer to, but I suspect there's quite a bit of it that still exists, and they'd probably gain a great hand in moving forward if they sat down and restructured their code, cleaned up internal documentation, and so forth, but that would also require money, and they'd have to be very careful on how to continue to move forward on content and stuff because with a persistent state world, you can't just freeze content and pray you'll still have customers (KR's 9 month freeze is a sad testimony to what happens when you do).

    That would be curious, but I suspect that it's not. I have no idea either way either though.

    Well, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, it's not a difficult thing to figure out one way or another, but in either case, it's rather immaterial to the discussion as it would apply equally to both of the large emulators anyway. ;)

    Yeah... And believe me, I understand that in the core of it, the logic to each feature would remain the same. Understanding computer logic is the most important part of programming -- languages can be learned and draped over logic.

    Well, you know, I still maintain (and someone around here is using it in their sig) that EA has made money on UO completely in spite of itself. Sure, they've had various developers who do truly recognize the game's potential and have moved it forward. They've also had several nitwits who shouldn't have been programming "Hello World" who don't understand the game, and who fail to learn. In among that have been the various studio moves, silly things like them taking two to six months to get back up to speed after moving studios, and all that jazz. Honestly, the biggest problem I think is that UO's not had the money and the visionaries at the same time; and they've definitely had people distracted by lofty goals and spent money where it would have been better spent on UO.

    UWO:O, I don't know... I think it might have been a successful counterpart to UO, but much like EQ and EQ2, I don't think one would have replaced the other. As I understand it, UO:X was built out of starting to improve UO, and then becoming a new game of itself.

    And there's, of course, been talk about the canceled 3D engine that may or may not have made it out of preliminary design phase.

    Honestly, there's a ton of stuff that should have happened that didn't because of distraction, being presented at the wrong time, or belonging to the EA Borg Cube that just doesn't get why UO's successful (and their ONLY successful MMO to date, not counting Pogo... heh).

    Well, you know, I think sometimes it comes from keeping the right perspective -- and no, I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do. I tend to remove myself mentally from over-analyzing certain things simply to prevent myself from getting too deep into considering them. But yeah, I can also respect not wanting to ruin the experience by getting too deep into it that you can't drag yourself back out. Me, I honestly (and literally) decided to start the degree I'm working on presently specifically because I've decided I want to stop armchair designing and actually get in and do it.

    Well, I have elsewhere agreed that if they could find a way to do it without detriment to the existing chain of thought on UO that sure, I'd stand behind it as an experiment to see if it brought in new subscribers and whatnot. I understand my theories as to how it will turn out are just that: theories. I think they're well grounded theories, but only time will certainly tell.

    My biggest concerns are though that in UO's current state, they should really focus on fixing the existing product to a point where it's worth marketing as a whole itself, and then go back and reconsider a classic shard. I mean, I honestly don't know how the classic sharders would feel (by majority) about a stable, new client that kept the feel of Ultima Online that worked with a classic ruleset and offered that experience, but by and large, in order for UO to survive another decade, they need to get it to the point where new players can get in, look at it, and not say, "Wow, this looks so dated -- is this an old Atari game?" I exaggerate, but you get the idea.

    On the other hand, if they could hire a small UO Classic team, set them off to the side, let them do their own thing, not interfere with UO Production, and get the thing up and running in an acceptable amount of time, I say, "Go for it."

    My problem, truly is that UO's not in a state where it can afford distraction; secondarily, they are historically bad with alternative rulesets (Siege Perilous), which get ignored for far longer than they should.

    If they could do it without adverse affect, I'm all for it. I just don't, at present, believe they could. And before they do it, they really need to study whether it's truly viable, or whether they're just hoping it's viable and throwing money at it hoping it'll produce results.

    Yeah, I definitely get you there... it's part of what's made me decide I really want to move into game design as my next step in life. Because I want to be part of that experience and put stuff out that others will enjoy and be able to look back and hopefully say, "That was fun, and they're enjoying it."

    I'm also no fool... if I get into Bioware Mythic or Blizzard or somewhere I hope to land, I know my work on any MMO will be subject to scrutiny like never before, but I think I'm okay with that. Sometimes it leads to improvement in development, and sometimes, sometimes you just smile, nod your head, and think, "Yeah, um... no." heh
  14. Check your PM's. You know I can't post the link in here, It violates TOS. But read your PM's. The company has been around forever and EA knows it. There is more than just one server. There is a ton of people who run hundreds of servers, either from the place I work at on my free time or the other big one. Even RaDian FlGith acknowledged it.

    Some are custom, some are old classic, some are clones of current, some are a mix of all three.
  15. Another thing I would love to see added is more focus on water. Not even needing to release an expansion, just toss in some new monsters, ridables, possibly new boats. Add some new caves or pirate dens to the oceans. The original Ultima game had tons of ocean combat. Whether with undead crews, pirates, sea serpents, etc.

    A custom naval combat system would be nice. Again, this is stuff that should get a new thread, but it could be add to current or a classic system.
  16. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Apr 2, 2006
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    This guy is legit.

    I suggest EA contacts this guy and maybe they can outsource the Classic shard to his company like they do with UOGameCodes. That is the only way I can see a Classic shard project working without UO losing 10,000s of accounts. i.e. outsource it.
  17. Vexxed

    Vexxed Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    May 14, 2008
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    UMM.... #1 The ABOVE is Skill imo.... To Be the Best at those things does indeed take skill

    #2... If everything is EQUAL then true player skills will be what decides a fight... but then again this is UO so someone could have the advantage in all of that listed & have to face 3 opponents.. plenty of room for Real skill to show there.

    NOT True... I don't know anything who pulls items like
    -Tinker Legs

    etc.... like they are 105 powerscrolls.. I mean if you really want to argue then simply look at the going Gold piece value of such items... 50-100m ?? or so... That's not the kind of money the Avg player makes by a LONG SHOT.

    I'm sure you can simply ask for your enemy's to gank you if your not feeling like the games enough of a challenge. It seems to me you want your definition of REAL skill to be worth more than things like knowledge of game mechanics / how to build a gimp Temp / having leet items etc.. Those are what makes a MMORPG fun... There's definately a need for Skill to Matter, but it's already included in an effective manner I'd say

    LOL....... I've played this game for 13 years now & EXCEL at what you state above & can positively tell you that a week won't cut it lol. I'll have a knowledge / experience advantage on just about anyone for a year or more depending on how much they EAT / SLEEP lol
  18. Thanks for the acknowledgement.
    I am not saying they should outsource to us, but I don't think the owner would turn it down, nor would the rest of us... lol...

    Really if what you said were to hold any bearing on me, nevermind, I don't like to provoke. I will close with this, no matter how geared someone is, there is someone with a lot less who can take them on most times if they have any skill in pvp on uo.

    I have seen people run gank on others with what people consider crap gear, but in reality, to their template it's perfect.

    But like I said, I am not going there. No, I didn't know what the RATE Today is on crap arties. I haven't been around like I said since, they put off SA like the third time. What I do know is, there is better gear that can be grinded out with crafting. That is a proven fact. I was never any arty nut. I think my main wore 2 , maybe 3 arties.. at the most. That was it. The rest was gear made with Runics.

    If I ever come back, maybe we can duel sometime vexxed :) I would like that. It's been 18 months, but I am always up for some good pvp if you're as good as you say you are :D
  19. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I think freeshards emulate old UO well enough.
    So I see no reason why we need EA to do their own.
  20. Coldren

    Coldren Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I can see 3:

    Accountability - Freeshards answer to no one. Businesses answer to customers, the BBB, and to shareholders. No power-hungry/drunk GM's messing up the entire world. This is big for a lot of people, believe it or not.

    Consistency - The servers will be up regularly, they won't be pausing the world every 5 minutes to save it, and there will be SOME form of support (Using the word support very loosely here - Still better than nothing).

    Profit - There is money to be made. How much is up for debate, but you can be certain if they don't think there's a profit in it, they simply won't do it.

    As far as the OP is concerned, interesting list. The only thing I strongly appose to on your list is races... I don't like elves, and the only good gargoyle is a dead one....
  21. OH BOY! ANOTHER THREAD ON THE CLASSIC SHARD! Can't bring yourself to add your ideas the the dozens of existing CS threads?

    Why not just open up a NEW FORUM dedicated to Classic Shard ideas?
  22. No offense. But can we give a classic shard a rest.

    The bottom line, unless you use a point in time... everyone will have difference of opinion.

    Second to bottom line, if you picked a point of time and said here is the classic shard... you would have things missing people enjoy. FINE you dont add them. Then you will have future additions, events etc... that the classic shard probably shouldnt get. Cause you want it to be classic.

    My point. UO is an evolving game. You cant go back. No one wants to go back. People just want what they like and want to get rid of what they dont like.

    Let it rest. I hope the DEVS put this to rest and say NO... NEVER...NOT going to happen.

    Add if they want they can raise another land mass with classic rules. The Untamed Land.
  23. That's a wonderful idea.
  24. Nyses

    Nyses Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jun 10, 2008
    Likes Received:
    :sleep2: GREAT idea - Classic Server Forum. Petra Where are you? :)
  25. Yes yes brilliant.
    Please that would be great.
  26. Aragon100

    Aragon100 Guest

    I dont agree with point one. Why make new monsters, new races and how items look? No need for it.

    No pet bonding.

    No custom housing but to be honest it is no biggie, might attract some more players to the classic shard.

    Insurance must go of course.

    No to powerscrolls. Patch 15 is a better patch to start with. Powerscrolls can be implemented if they want to boost dungeons and other outdoor spawn areas.

    No to anything stronger then vanquishing.

    Statloss should be as it used to be.

    No character transfer.

    If you have bods in this classic shard then you should allow runics to be made. It's a good crafting feature.

    Bless deeds only to unuseful none PvP affecting items. Like clothing and other stuff that affect your look.

    Remove resistance system.

    Bring back old guild stones.

    Factions + Alignment factions (Chaos and Order) should be implemented.

    + very important, bring back the old spelltimers.

  27. Coldren and Babble are both right.
    Yes, we emulate the old servers perfectly. We even run current the same and customs. We are pretty anal about it all.

    Coldren is right on all three of his statements though, which is why, even as a script dev I am asking EA to jump on this.

    Accountability: You are correct on every point, unless a Administrator hires GM's and Moderators who go through a rigorous interview process. Even then if one goes rogue the admin has to be on top of it and hold no bias to dismissing the corrupt; friend or not. Which is another common issue on MOST free servers.

    Consistency: I don't know about world saves every 5 minutes... I know some do, but those of us who actually work within "the company", we are smart enough to run world saves in the background. No one sees it, no one knows it. Support is there only the big servers who can hire dependable staff members(See above). So yes, that is rare. Some servers are up all the time, mine was up for over 5 years. Most are not though, as like I said way earlier, it is a bunch of kids leaving here and think they can program and run something for a week or a month, maybe two, then get fed up and quit because it's too hard for them. So in reality, it is hard to find a dedicated server (With good staff).

    Profit: For EA on a classic will either be round about 1000+ new accounts. They can look at this as "well that is ONLY $12,990 a month or more" or they can look at "$12,990 is more than managable to run one or two servers with staff". Even if it was 500 accounts I dont see why that wouldn't be enough to have a small team.

    This is also another issue with free servers. No one gets paid to run the consistent and accountable server. It comes from our pockets. Some people get donations from their players, but nothing monthly. Nor can we or would we demand it. No money sometimes means the death of a good free server.

    Races on the list were added for the oh so many old school RPers out there who complained back in the day about not having a different race to play. No one said you really have to keep the human/elf/gargoyle bonus/restriction lists for their races in. Just the look ;)

    I didn't bother to check all the CS posts. I Checked the two sticky ones when I posted this.

    I knew there was going to be people arguing about this. That is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. I have been doing this for years and ran a dedicated and successful classic server and a custom server. I met the requirements needed to run them and the list of issues Coldren posted I kept under control. Others do it as well. This thread was taking from the posts in both stickied... and adding logical marketting strategy to it.

    Then again, as one poster said, it is all about what people want and dont want. Well draw the line. You see my list, some things are labeled with EA needs a decision or it is an optional idea. As I read on stratics announcements; they were looking for input from players, non-players, rpgers, outsiders, etc; well I gave them feedback as an old player, a developer, a rpg/action game player, and a business man. I think I replied with what they asked for.
  28. Aragon that list seems close to mine ;)
    Not bad.
    I still defend new item art and monsters mainly for appeal and looks. It beats always rehueing the old and renaming them.

    Though I can see a point no is throwing on why no new.
    Simplistically, LBR + had art and animation updating. Animation pre-LBR do not match anything that was added after. Plain and simple. There is too sharp of a contrast. It needs to be fixed.

    As I stated in a private message last night, don't feed me an excuse saying you lost the frames/models for the original art. If you cannot replicate you suck as a animation artist and as a artist period. I have seen people create all new animations for UO and it was done in a few weeks with one person doing it.

    Just "my" input on the old animation/new animation contrast issues. No one is to blame but the artists.

    I was just told by another DEV, if we are offered outsourcing, we might possibly take it under contracted agreements of course. Food for thought.
  29. Most of us Classic Shard supporters generally want to see the "new" content (LBR, Elves, Gargoyles, SE, etc) removed, as well as the lands those expansions brought in. Personally, I don't care as much about removing the content (new monsters, new item art) as I do removing the land masses. The world is just too big as it stands. There are way too many places that you can go to and see no one, for weeks at a time...maybe longer. This shouldn't be the case. If the world is smaller, it forces more interaction.

    The original concept for UO was supposed to be for a world that was totally accessible without the use of "zones" (although I don't believe that term was around back then). You were supposed to be able to walk, ride, or sail to all parts of the world. That changed as early as T2A, but if there was to be a Classic Shard (re-imagining of UO)...it would be really nice if any new areas that were added followed that original concept, rather than being completely seperate from the main landmass. That's certainly not easy to do, given the way the world files are built, but like I said...it would be nice.
  30. I do agree to an extent. The reason for keeping more land mass is for housing issues, but since we are limited to one per account, it should be easily handled with one map. Plus appeal of new lands.

    Easier than you think. There is enough room in certain areas for new dungeons. Even dungeons can be parsed on a new map in general, dungeons from tokuno map are on the malas map ;). Players never notice the map changes ;).

    Actually it would be easy to enlarge the original map size. If they didn't want to, they could simply provide a second map just for dungeons and hidden areas that a player won't notice a transition in. Then use the old dungeon/green acres are in map0.mul and expand the world to add more content.

    I would love to see Paws put on the map. It was on mine. Have a dev custom build the whole small village based on an old Ultima map and town layout. Really since we are now kinda straying from the Ultima story line slightly, there would be nothing wrong with adding a small continent and some more islands to the original map.

    Again, an easy task.
  31. I knew that some of the dungeons and various caves and whatnot were spread amongst different maps, I didn't know it would be that easy to change.

    I always wished that the Lost Lands had been a continent, surrounded by oceans, like Britannia...instead of some rectangular chunk of land surrounded by ??? Being able to actually sail from the docks at Trinsic to the Lost Lands, without any teleporters etc, would have been awesome!
  32. If they removed the unused green acres, and yes it is unused unless its for quick testing. Which I doubt, since they have servers dedicated to testing... and moved the maps for the dungeons.. they could fix the map to remove the rectangle and fit it in.

    Yes, it is on the same map too, which is the killer. It was just an act of laziness. All the other maps that got their own slot, but T2A didnt... shame.

    Like I said, it is all possible to do. They can remove a lot and add a lot.

    I think the whole lost lands teleport thing though was because it was supposed to be some hidden land... a hidden land hindered by invisible barriers ;)

    Captain "Sail from these lost lands with the fury of god!"
    1st Mate "Captain, we can't! We have hit an invisible barrier and our ship won't move! It's an act of sorcery!"
  33. Well, the 'recdu'/'recsu' teleporter thing was also to prevent those that had not paid for the expansion from accessing those areas. I guess if you could have just sailed over there, there would have been no way to restrict access.
  34. Well even now, they could just add a larger scale serpent games and use no "magic words" to cross. There are a ton of options to go through to do as you are asking.

    On a custom note: when I had my customized classic server seconding my normal classic; I had several options to get from town to town and to the lost lands etc through ships docked as transports in towns, as well some of servers use "portal mages".

    I remember one server had a custom map where they removed all the dungeons and t2a, built onto the main map and recreated some old landmasses uo had.

    It's viable.
  35. Uvtha

    Uvtha Stratics Legend
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 24, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The lack of skill has nothing to do with the new items properties and everything to do with the fact that you never lose your equipment.

    UO has always had item properties. Better gear has ALWAYS been a substantial advantage. The only real difference is that items are now more important, but if you take away insurance people only wear what they are GOOD ENOUGH to keep, and combat is balanced so long as functional gear replacement is easy enough to attain.

    I still don't think we need a classic shard, and I still content that many people who want one really want to relive the novelty of the era (which was novel, and was awesome) but that is impossible to recreate. It would be more advisable to move forward, rather than back if you ask me.
  36. It wouldn't be moving back per se. As this wouldn't be a complete redo for every server out. Just adding one or two new ones.

    The novelty of that era was it was insanely hard, as opposed to now. Which if you find it hard now, that is a shame. I do not find anything "hard" about the new systems.

    Item properties? What item properties were on the old items? Minus damage increase, hit chance increase, defense increase perks, and the occasional slayer or spell property? It is far from what is out now. Now there is too many properties. Do you think it is easier for them to balance 100 properties versus 10? Doubtful. I remember the publishings from two to three years ago, so many balance changes because nothing was balanced right. The more you add, the more work must be done in balancing, which UO has been really unbalanced.

    The reality is, UO went from a good core to trying to match Ever Quest, Dark Age of Camelot, World of Warcraft, Dungeon and Dragons Online, and Ascherons' Call, and others. It won't EVER happen. It was never meant to emulate others. UO was the original and should stay original and avoid being like these crowd stoppers. UO is a sandbox game at best with the most ideal customization without using a lame level system. If you want to see UO try and keep up with these said games, you will see failure. If UO kept with originality, it would live another ten years plus.

    Look at star wars galaxies, they revamped their systems to appeal with new systems, and like Origin's Ultima Online; it lost a ton of players. Enough to almost make it go under. In fact they even agreed as Origina and EA did for emulators to make their old school content to at least save their face. Now I am hearing they are reimplementing some old features as well as are in debate of just going back to grass roots.

    This is not what is being asked or said here. What is being asked or said is to add another server or two aimed at nothing but grass roots core origin systems. Not a rehaul of every server.

    What's next... to counter balance the mass damage, we will switch the hp/mp to match a JRPG?

    PKer: "Pft I have the most leet gear and 10,000 hp!!!"
    Mage Pker: "Wh4t3v3r n00b. 1 h4v3 10,000 mp 4nd 5 w4ys t0 h34l. D13 n00b!"
  37. Also I might add, you have Siege Perilous and Mugen. Two servers not to be like any other game server on the lists. What is wrong with adding a classic server or two. I don't see anyone complaining Mugen and Siege Perilous should be removed from not being the same and technically MOVING forward.

    Food for thought.
  38. I look it at like this:

    You are taking a road trip, a few hours into the 3 day drive, you realize you have made a wrong turn. You have no way of knowing how to get back on the road you originally started on besides backtracking to the point where you made the wrong turn. You can either drive "forward" aimlessly, hoping that you will eventually find the correct path, or you can admit your mistake, and just suck it up and backtrack.

    For many of us (Classic Shard supporters) UO made a couple of very serious wrong turns...UO:R and AOS. Depending on whom you ask, they will tell you one was worse than the other, but in the end, most Classic Shard supporters believe that both were wrong turns*

    There isn't much the devs can do to put UO back on the "right" course for fans of the Classic Era because there are too many players that enjoy the current version. Can you even imagine the number of players that would immediately cancel their subscriptions if they found out that the devs were going to do away with Trammel, insurance, and AOS properties? It would be the end of the game...pure and simple. That ship sailed back in 2003 or so.

    The reason many of us want to see a Classic Shard is not about "going back", but rather going forward from the point that the first of the wrong turns was taken...and then staying on the right path.

    Most of the people that want a Classic Shard don't really care one way or another about the existing shards. Most left years ago. Some went on to play other MMOs, others went to freeshards, some did both. And some of us have stuck around, hoping for years that we would eventually end up back on the road that UO started down, but instead, we have ended up more and more lost. That's who the Classic Shard would appeal to, not the current players.

    *not all Classic Shard supporters believe that Trammel was a mistake, not all Classic Shard supporters believe that AOS was a mistake...but most agree that the prior version of UO before those things were added is preferable to what is being offered today.
  39. A classic server would bring back old clients who are long gone when the new systems were implemented. As I have said, the emulators took most of these players a long time ago.

    As I also said, I back this, even though I am a soft code developer myself for these emulators, since there are too many wanna-be servers in the emulator community and a lot of people just don't like bouncing between 5 servers to get the perfect experience.

    If a server or two was added you would see a gradual return. Like I said its either "Oh we are only adding 1000 accounts" or its "We have 1000 new players!"

    EA is trying to make more money. The more people who oppose this and the more players that leave... well if you don't see end game drawing near, expect it within the decade. A lot of vets leave the game, a lot of new players leave the game.

    If you think about it, it really adds ANOTHER game to EA's servers for UO. It's another system to try for new players and a system a lot of players who left would return for.

    So those who say "Move forward", it would be. It is opening another avenue for income to come in and another highway that keeps your deteriorating highway from collapsing.

    I would love to see the difference in active accounts on a yearly basis and how long one stays active that is new.

    When I returned I saw a lot of old vets return as well and as I left, so were they. It is a common problem.
  40. Babble

    Babble Guest

    It is just EA is not able to update servers with different rules.
    Is my main reason why I hope EA stays away from it.

    As for money... EA will release TOR and expects a million new gamers, so what are a few tousand accounts to a decade old game?

    Might be different if EA licensed UO out, for different rules shards.

    Will be interesting to see in the next year what EA's online strategy will be.
    DAoC and UO are slowly fading, Warhammer was a disaster and we have the graveyard of Earth & Beyond and Sims Online of EA's track record.
  41. I think its going to come down to this. UO will die or they will have to outsource it. Period. I don't see why "we", as in our company, was never approached. I think it's stubborn. We have been around since Origin.

    If not give it to us, split to a new team on new angles. Give it to someone who knows what to do with the servers. Those who can fix it.

    Really, a lot of us would love to take this job on, but I know there would be debates on how between EA and our Owner. I can see the contract being really really definitive on the outsourced companies role and their permissions on how and what to edit.

    As for adding a server with a new system? They could just buy the use of ours or another emulators servers and hire the dev's. Then you would have your working servers for a classic system, an aos system, or a customized system.

    We just stay within the client's scope anyhow. With on and off options of course. I know most of us don't edit the clients. As we'd have to edit each and every client upgrade. That is a lot of work for a team we don't have since we can't pay anyone to do a free service.

    But within the scope, we can do what they ask/ want.

    I don't see a millions of people coming back. Nor will UO ever have a WoW player base. They need to stop aiming at that goal.

    What they can have is probably a range from 500,000 to close to a million return if marketted right. Again EA would have to dump money in marketting, which if anyone from the 80's and 90's gaming era knows... hasn't been the same since then for ANY company.

    When was the last time you saw almost every OTHER set of commercials advertising a game or game store? Do you get retail released magazines from GameStop/EB? No. Video game marketting died. Why? Who knows. It is a stupid error from all the companies. It is one of the biggest markets out there.

    Another stupid move is making certain games PC only. EA's money makers are on console. The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion were smart. Bethesda made that game a port game and wracked up the sales from PC, XBOX, and PS users. Now that was smart marketting. Another company who did it was the one who created Sacred and Sacred 2. They made a good bit of cash from having both PC and Console games. Dragon Age is doing it as well, but there was a huge issue which I still have a gripe with EA about on DLC (Yes, I am an AVID PS3 player). They could have handled it better and BioWare acknowledged their error, but as I see it, left the error in to collect money asap, instead of fixing it asap!
  42. Alvinho

    Alvinho Great Lakes Forever!
    Stratics Veteran

    Sep 7, 2003
    Likes Received:
    Classic servers will be a fail irregardless, with stagnant content nothing is there to keep folks around, want nostalgia go play a 8 bit Nintendo game or sega genesis and see how fast you grow bored of those games same will happen on a classic PERIOD!!
  43. Evlar

    Evlar Guest

    This pretty much sums things up for me in a nutshell.

    Although newer games came along, although some of them offered players what UO couldn't, one has to wonder...

    ...what difference in overall player numbers would it have made in the long run, had developers prior to/during Renaissance and Age of Shadows, stuck with the game's core originality? Personally and at the very least, I don't think the game would be in any worse shape for subscribers than it currently is.

    One can't argue with the fact that there have been some excellent additions to the game post-AoS/Ren, but the overriding factor, THE biggest changes to the game and gameplay, came as a result of those major changes.

    When you implement such big changes in the midst of a perpetual world, some will go along with them for the ride, some will love them, some will loathe them. I would surmise that there was probably a fairly even three-way split of opinion - sat on fence, for, against.

    The saving grace perhaps, unlike some other games, is that the core overall loyalty of the "fans" of UO, kept it from spinning into free-fall. Those happy would be around for even longer. Those against would quit within a year. Those on the fence would quit, return, quit, return... and so on. The likelihood though, is those "on the fence", possibly find less and less reasons to return as the years pass.

    I'm sensible enough to understand that there's no way of fully recapturing the time and the essence, or indeed, many of the people who shared and helped create the gameplay experiences of the era. There is an opportunity to re-capture the essence of the originality, along with many great aspects of the era. Plus, the opportunity to shape and help create what could have been.

    Ultimately, it's not our decision (be you for, against, indifferent), nor even the current developers decision. It all comes down to how "economically viable" it is.

    One suggestion that captured my attention in this thread however, was the possibility of outsourcing. It isn't an entirely new precedent. EA Games only last year, sold rights to NetDragon in China to produce a "new" Ultima Online MMO. If it's infeasible to directly offer a "classic" orientated alternative option to the mainstream of UO players past, present and future... why not consider including outsourcing such a project, within the feasibility study that's quite obviously under way?

    This thread has provided some food for thought and it's interesting to hear the perspective of someone who's been so heavily involved in the emulation aspect. Although free for the players, it has shown how alternative options can be successfully implemented and maintained to a degree.

    Thank you for your input Khaotic Carnifex. You will no doubt have gathered that although some here support a "classic" option, there are also many forum members here steadfastly against even the thought of it.

    All I hope, is that there are realistic options available for everyone who loves UO in their own way, to be able to enjoy the game style they they prefer, without detriment to the other. It's not going to be an easy ride, but then again, nothing worthwhile at the end ever is. :thumbup1:
  44. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Apr 2, 2006
    Likes Received:
    EA should OUTSOURCE the Classic Shard!!! Wooo. Just like they outsource UOGameCodes and are outsourcing UO-3D to NetDragon.

    It is zero risk and zero cost to EA.

    Most importantly it wont impact current production shard and next expansion development.

    If it is done inhouse, it will be like KR and will be effectively the next expansion. Current PvEers will desert UO because EA will be catering to griefers and PvEers will have to wait at least another 2 years until they get an expansion/new content. KR was a disaster... UO lost 35,000 accounts in 2007. We dont want a repeat of that again.
  45. Well said Evlar and HD2300!

    Everyone for the most part has been pretty open minded in this discussion and my new friend RaDian FlGith have discussed a lot in private about UO's past, present, future, and only hopes of fixing itself.

    As I said earlier, after talking to other devs, we'd be willing to take on the burden, if not us, I guarantee others would love to have a hand at it. Honestly outsourcing would be cost effective. Very much so.

    I was talking to a friend of mine in our community today about how sad it is to watch old uo nostalgic vids on youtube... we spoke briefly of opening a server ourselves. We find that the issue is bringing aboard the right people. last time we tried this, a lot of people who were hired on had their own ideas and left because we were trying to remain classic. As RaDian and I discussed it comes down to persistance and staffing. Can we get it going fast? Sure. Very fast. Can we maintain it...? That's the loaded gun question right there. It is one thing to maintain something on our end for a few years, but with no cash but our own supporting it... and free help. Well you can draw a conclusion to how it would be run. Which has been a couple of members personal hold backs on releasing a large scale server. I know we can personally host a server that holds thousands of players. We just can't get the manpower to maintain it.

    I hope this becomes economically viable though. I would have loved for the classic players to have stuck around while us dev's worked on ours. But players are impatient as we all know and go where they must.

    Another sad note... I don't know how many people know this... Tabula Rasa, as I just found out, closed down there servers for good last year. Another of Richard's Garriott(sp?) games gone down the tubes. DAoC won't be far off or UO if things don't change. Hearing there was a 35,000 account loss in 2007... and knowing as Evlar said, I am one of the Fence Sitters, this is boding bad for EA. Because I keep trying to find a reason to return and it gets dimmer everytime.

    I hope this thread besides the arguements are food for thought. I am glad I could provide some insight for everyone from an emulation developers stand point.

    I won't lie. I miss the game and the community. Everytime I come back though, more of my friends quit and most are permanent due to the abrupt changes or unbalanced new additions or nerfing. I always find myself with a large guild to see it last for a couple months then wane to almost nothing... or just dies out. Players quitting the game... it's sad. As I watched those vids and read those comments today, even as a guy, I hate to admit... it saddened me dearly to read what I was reading. So many people gone... claiming it was the best game till ren or aos... even some who said it just lost its flavor after so many of their friends quit after aos time era.

    Really, for the sake of the community, the perseverance of the game, and maintaining a Legend in its own right... EA does something soon with either classic, balance adjustments, or just mass advertising to bring people back. Else I just see it dieing out like Tabula Rasa.

    Thank you everyone.

    I would like to add this for most of us players, developers since osi owned UO, to those who have left UO (EA or emulated):

    "We have been here since the beginning. UO revolutionalized MMO's. It is also the ONLY ONE still around that has the customization it does. No game and I mean NOT A SINGLE ONE offers what we have here. Can you name a game you can own and decorate a house, customize it as well; turn around and maintain any class template you want with your own customization and grinding; have the immerse community it does; have the combat and crafting system which no other game matches by far; and still on top it all haven't had a single graphical upgrade to match modern society... ever? Yet still be loved? No, you can't.

    Those perks above... and other things we fell in love... the story, the pvp, the pvm, the pve, have all been our corner stone in our arch of happiness. Some of the stones were removed, but replaced with more glamorous ones. As Evlar said, some liked, some watched, some left. If something is not done soon. All of this... will be just a memory you will love.

    We have all gloated over a great kill, laughed with friends over a hard champ run, complained if we lost to a pvp gank ambush and lost our gear, we have all been through all the emotions. Do you remember the speech when Lord British left? Do you remember "Ima Noob" comics? We all loved every moment. This game has brought more memories to me than ANY game I have ever played. I hope you all realize this too... it needs to be saved one way or another. For everyone that is here or gone.

    If and When UO ever dies... it will be down to us in the emulated community to make the supply. A supply... we cannot provide for you all, as there are too many people in the community running a non-business oriented UO. You might find what you like, but it doesnt mean your friends will, they might find another server... or another.. it will break everyone apart.

    I hope EA saves UO. I really do. We as players from OSI to just EA... to the emulated community hope something changes. Something brings back everyone. Cause even we fear the death of the game..."
  46. Llamfia

    Llamfia Guest

    Fixed a little
  47. With all this thought and input and changes and subtractions. It doesnt really sound classic.

    Thats my point. Much of what people talk about under the "classic" is what they like and want.

    Classic is gone. UO evolved. No saying in a good way. Just evolved.
  48. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 18, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Perfectly Stated in My Opinion.

    There is no "Perfect Job" that I have ever been able to find, and a person can gain from even a crappy job.

    But for it to all work, the work really must be a Passion, not just A Job. A Spirit With a Vision is a Dream With a Mission, a person I respect a lot once wrote.


    I would think that a person that DOESN'T want to start a company to show everyone how to do what THEY say "Can Be Done" simply doesn't have enough Desire to actually do it.

    That's my take on it. As you so aptly stated, and as I have said so many times:

    If the idea is so very viable, and there are literally millions just laying there on the table for the taking...why in the world hasn't someone already scooped that money and niche market right up?

    There HAS to be a reason...there has to be...:)
  49. @Surgeries

    It is called CopyRights. Did you know there are several lower graded games and some actual based off ultima or ultima online. Did you also know they are low populated, not charged for, because well... they don't carry the ultima name or the designers were so scared to infringe upon certain aspects that things have to be left out. In the end this takes away from making the "classic" game and charging for it.

    Really, as I said. Classic has been done on several free servers. Pre Ren, Pre T2a, Pre-Lbr, and pre-aos. You can find a handful of them. Are the persistent. Doubtful. They come and go. We cannot legally charge for these games due to a copyright which EA owns.

    If EA let there be a laxity on the copyrights or rewrote the contracts with certain emulators, than yes, we can produce what people want. That would cost EA money, and EA being the corporate juggernaut it is, is not about to part with any money on their owned game names. Which after the recent Tim Langdell legal copyright crap with Mirror's Edge; EDGE GAMES!! (Take him down EA, he is a joke. I wrote a whole column on how to legally annhilate him on NISA forums) I don't see them making any more copyright mistakes.

    Which is why EA would have to either change agreements legally to allow another company to do this, or subcontract and outsource to someone else. That is in short why most people have not emulated UO and produced it. Can't use a name that isn't legally yours and people won't come to a game that's a knockoff most times.
  50. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 18, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Then make your own game?

    That was the point of my post...be a ground breaker instead of waiting for others to approve your dreams. You must either Lead, Follow, or get out of the way.

    And if you have the prowess in understanding gaming and the psychology of those that play to the point of knowing what it would take to bring the next big thing to market...then...

    Why wouldn't you do that instead of waiting for EA to give anyone rights to their own material and proprietary intelligence?

    I'm just sayin'...