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Discussion in 'UO Test Center' started by Chardonnay, Apr 14, 2010.
Dismount is ruining PvP...
Stealth archer heavy xbow dismount is ruining pvp.
it does get old, but it isnt THAT bad.
bolas do get annoying at times considering they hit people off screen a lot lol.
Along with everyone and their mother throwing bolas...
Animal Form, Smoke Bomb, Mirror Image, 120 weapon skill, 45 DCI, teleport, wall of stone, invis pot, confusion pot, evasion, etc.... Lots of ways to handle being dismounted.
So you saying everyone who PvP's should have the skill ninjitsu?
Do you even PvP honestly? Because half that **** you posted is insta-death...
Do you pvp? Insta-death? Yes I did name some things with ninja skill. However 120 weapon skill, 45 DCI, teleport, wall of stone, invis pot, confusion pot and evasion do not require ninjitsu. I have survived tons of gank attempts after being dismounted without a single guildmate around.
Try working with what youre given and practice.
Fix speeding then theres less need for dismount.
Make pvp less defensive less need for dismount.
And thought id add, invis jewels / items, faction runes, sacred journey.
Theres many ways to combat being dismounted. If dismount wasn't needed to stop people of screening every 2secs it would be used less.
If people wherent so scared of dying there would be less need for dismount.
Fix disarm, its gay being disarm spammed constantly.
Fix apples, its gay not being able to do a decent combo as a mage / necro. We rely on curses.
Fix pots, Greater cures are way too overpowered. 0 skill completely negates 80 points. Make Greaters have a 30% chance to cure DP with 0 alchy. then another 5% for every 10 points in alchy to a max of 50%. 50EP with alchy bumps it to 100%, without you have 55% (basically EP is halved without alchy)
Fix pets, its gay being chased down by a dreadmare or GD(GD's not so bad).
Fix ninja form, its gay being chased by a mounted person with a GD.
Fix factions...they are FUBAR, even the new system still needs alot of tweeking, i hope they are planning development of this for at least 6months.
I wouldnt use the word gay like that, but I agree strongly on those two points!
Agree...there is no snare in this game, but the game could realy use some. People run away in every game, and with very little snare or roots it makes kiting a major problem. That basicaly means hell for any type of melee, and strong advantages for ranged opponents.
Mechanicaly the only snares in this game is dismount , and the only roots or mezz is paralize in its various forms. Without a means to do one or the other as a player, your ability to get kills is alot less.
Agree... damage may need to be bumped up. Its hard to tell exactly how much. Other changes like snares may be enough of a change. However duels or major fights, shouldnt last more than a couple minutes tops. The 5 to 10 minute duels are rediculous.
Not sure what your meaning here, maybe the devs will know?
Um with the limited skill sets fighters become 1 trick ponies for the most part. You get disarmed spamed because there isnt alot of other options. While I can see how thats annoying, a fair fix would be some very big changes to the current pvp system.
And I agree with the rest of your points without much to add or comment on.
All in all , I dont agree with the original poster...dismount is as close to a snare as we get in this game and with the insane amount of kiting that always goes on in PvP, its nessessary. You should change your playstyle to where you dont have to run so much and then dismount wont be an issue.
It's a mmorpg. You should teach the group you fight with to assist you or anyone else that's dismounted better. It's not impossible to heal someone while they're dismounted. The problem's not dismount. The problem is who's helping you or your tactic while you're dismounted.
If you're riding a living mount (which you should be) time out the message of the bola and jump off your mount before it hits you then remount.
Sounds to me like you just need some training....
I dunno though, the heavy xbow dismount is a little bit on the power side. And you are not always fighting in a group. but yea, bola's are avoidable.
Damage is high, and that goes for most archery weapons. That's not the topic at hand though. He's saying dismount in general... not obtuse dexer base damage rates.
The heavy xbow is the only dismount you can use anywhere on screen, do huge damage, and have no warning
Bola's and Cyclones both can be used the same way.... instantaneously. Bola's just need to be prepped and then a mage can teleport around till it hits.
And as for a warning well all you have to do is look at what the player has equipped at that moment. If it looks like a stick or a giant cross run if you don't want to be dismounted. And if you say $%!7 about a stealth character not giving you a warning about dismounting you. Well you'd just be ignorant. That's the point of a stealth character... that's why they invest 200+ points of skill....
Damage is really the only issue of a heavy x bow dismount. And that can be resolved by a useful guild mate x healing you.
I do like how your solution is to have a guildmate heal you.
5/6 mage daggering casting was fine too - just needed a useful guildmate to heal you. Perfection in pvp? All good. Just grab yourself a guildmate to heal you! Its so simple!
Just because effective crosshealing with two people can potentially have a positive influence on a situation does not mean it negates a bad game mechanic.
If there is a manipulation of game mechanics with a bola to teleport around and instantly use it, it should be changed. Even then, it requires the user to be visible and unarmed. The cyclone is a new wrinkle and could represent the same instant, unavoidable dismount from stealth.
The fact is, groups who rely on this to get kills are soft. Players that use it create less pvp for themselves and their teammates.
There needs to be a way to deal with it or recognize it. Hidden instant dismounts for big damage out of stealth is overpowered. Yes. Especially in an era of faction ganks. As for your solution that everybody should just get ninjitsu?
We're practically already there. Most people in the game that pvp in smaller groups have been forced to get it. Which leads to even MORE running, less solid offense and ultimately less satisfying pvp action.
Changes like this are not a matter of nerfing a class or playstyle. It is a policy decision that trickles down to gameplay you wouldn't even imagine could connect with the change. Modifying ranged dismounts with a delay (and firming up the delay for bolas) would provide incentive for people to fight against larger groups without the fear of an ambush insta death. This would lead to smaller groups more willing and able to fight larger groups. Which means more pvp. Which means more fun for everybody.
Remember, most shards have anywhere from 5 to 20 regular pvprs who run around on given nights. If the right combo of stealth dismounters get together on one side or the other, who wants to bother? Less action, less fun for everyone.
It needs work regardless of if you feel its fine or not. The situation is crystal clear and speaks for itself. This is another in a long line of essential, incremental pvp alternations. If we didn't bring these things up, it is likely holy light would still cast without delay, dismounting somebody would still have no remounting delay, 5/6 daggering, etc etc.
Well, I was more saying I agree with you. But then I thought about it right before posting and came to the conclusion that the archer dismount was a bit unbalanced compared to the other two Dismount methods.
Why do I get the idea that Puni either plays or runs with a stealth dismounter...
My guild has them, and they are devastating. I just can't help but notice that after a couple ambushes, people just stop showing up for more. Laughs and backslaps on their part ensue, then I'm forced to log out in boredom. Thanks guys.
No, I play a weaving/healing/fencer and a parry/med/macer mainly. Stealthing's the biggest waste of 200+ skill points in my opinion. Thx.
You can hardly compare casting flame strikes like lightnings with uncapped SDI to a 5s weapon's base damage. Find better examples.
And to the other part you make it sound like the fight is suppose to never end. Really? We're not suppose to create tactics out of the special moves they give us in pvp? Just pure damage and nothing more.... yeah sounds like fun...
You should just stop arguing with him. He thinks Stat loss is the reason people run away, should show his knowledge of how the player base works.....even though I slightly agree with him on the archer dismount, but that is cause it is unbalanced compared to the other two dismount methods, not that it should be removed or that people who use it are soft....just unbalanced.
Its fine to argue with me - but I honestly just don't see anything concrete coming from Puni on this. He misreads what I'm saying with the 5/6 casting I'm not directly comparing them. I am saying that your suggestion to "find a guildie to heal you" could be applied to almost every single bad or unbalanced mechanic in the history of the game. But if he wants to read it a certain way to FEEL like he is in the right, so be it. I'm also not one of these "DONT USE DISARM ITS CHEAP! DON'T USE DISMOUNT ITS CHEAP!!!!" people. Use the hell out of every special in the game. Mele dismount is necessary, tricky to pull off and has upside and downside. Same with bolas. Use and abuse to your hearts content. Archery dismount (especially from stealth) is just plain overpowered compared to the other two. Give it a delay before a shot and the problem is solved. Still good, but no more instantly popping people off their mount from stealth into a wall of your friends or pets. You'll just have to work for it a bit like others.
As for the faction statloss thing: I'm deeply sorry it offends you. But the hard cold reality is that for whatever reason you would like to assign, more people play factions now than ever before. A lot of xsharded pvp groups run factions because it enables them to have good equipment on multiple servers. But I won't try and make the case that gear incentives have been the change that caused higher enrollment - I'll just leave it to you. Point is, factions pretty much define UO pvp right now for better or worse. Xsharders, new players, etc etc. The only reason I say that the developers seem to be encouraging factions as the primary source of pvp is simple: Theres good, easy loot to be had and really useful pets. Why do you think these things exist? To NOT encourage people to join? I just really don't get why you are so aggressively in disagreement with me about this - its just very obvious.
So all that being said, Factions is a system built for when the game had a broader playerbase. With the xshardering pvp teams now, the second one or two drop into stat they'll just log and look elsewhere. If there are big gank squads, a solo player will likely take one death then find something else to do. This isn't some radical anti statloss tirade - just the reality of what happens nightly in the pvp scene. It isn't as if there are epic faction battles for sigils taking place nightly where one team really needs that statloss to defeat the otherteam. Its mostly just gankers jousting with stragglers until the numbers shift around. Even fights last as long as it takes for one or two to drop, then people drop out for 20 or log.
So heres the thesis:
*Incentives to factions attract people. Clearly somebody wanted to see more faction play, and gradually it has become the preferred way to go about rolling a pvp character.
*Factions is designed to provide definitive battlefield victory, not continuous combat. Hence statloss.
*The small player-base of current UO is not large enough to absorb statloss and maintain an active pvp scene. Too few people, plain and simple.
*If you remove or modify statloss, you get the most bang for your buck with the relatively meager player-base.
Maybe you could have statloss around strongholds - thats fine. Most of the faction ganking/pvping that takes place is far away or in dungeons.
The other alternative is to remove the incentives to join factions (gear, horse) or provide an alternative method to obtaining them. I would rather just see the statloss timer get cut to 5 minutes unless your within a radius of a faction base. Why this whole argument gets under your skin I have no idea. And as much as you mock it, YES statloss has created a climate of desperate anti-risk style pvp. People go to insane lengths now not to ever be compromised. The upcoming changes to the apple timer will have an impact on this behavior as well - but I fear it might lead to just plain more running. Again, this isn't some crazy scheme or motive I cooked up, its just based on observation and participation.
So you're saying have archery back to the old way it was? Before they "fixed" moving shot AI's right?
I could go for that. Just say that next time.
You add so much extra detail I don't read your entire posts.
Why would you think that I said anything like that? Nothing in my post resembles what you just said. For some reason you don't seem to like me and insist on making this a cute back and forth.
I think the developers should add a delay and message on shots from heavy xbows and cyclones along the lines of the one used for bolas. "Player prepares for a devastating attack". It would draw you out of stealth, and take another second to hit. Simple fix. Why are you so adamant on this childish stuff?
Using a bola does not take you out of stealth currently, other than that I could agree with adding a little bola code to the archer dismount.
Also I know why people are in factions "now" but people have been doing it for TWELVE YEARS we should not be forced to change a system so that the children in this game who wish to be high and mighty can prosper. Factions should be factions, they are not the "mainstream pvp" and no one is trying to make them that way, faction over haul is not to get more people to pvp, but to get more people to partake in factions, and fix a few over sights they made the last round. Honestly it is not an offense, it is exactly what it is, don't like factions? get out.
The suggested Ideas for how stat loss can be handled is a great discussion, I simply do not agree with removing it. I am also no fond of lowering the timer. The other ideas are great though, when Faction events are happening you should be placed in stat, when they are not fine I don't care if you are in stat. But then I also have a thing against being able to gain points when not partaking in faction events, but that is a whole different discussion. My point is Factions is Factions, you do not need it to pvp, even though you need pvp to do it.
Also I disagree with you that stat loss is the reason people run away, or hide, or do any of the things they do. Sure it might make 20 minutes dull if you defeat all your opponents and I realize on some shards this is what happens, I play on two servers, Napa and ATL, if you feel napa is a high pop shard then I dunno what to tell you, but on napa there are down turns in pvp when we win (we don't run away just because we go into stat so if we are losing there is no down turn) but it is usually short lived, on atl it is more constant flow (when fights really happen anyway). People were doing the same thing before the faction influx, this is what I am talking about. Stat loss does nothing to the pvp tactics, it simply allows you to "win". If you want to say once everyone is dead pvp is over, then I will agree...but in a real field fight...once everyone is dead, its over anyway, except I suppose in a field fight you have people ressing up and coming back, but as I said for us that happens even with stat loss, specially considering most people equip a few skill items and are good as new.
In short, I do not disagree with you in a full extent, I just disagree with where you are coming from. All your points are valid, if we consider how things "are" but none of them are valid if we consider how things "should be" or how they were, for that matter.
No stat loss unless it is faction related, but no points unless it is faction related.
There, that is my basic stance on the whole subject summed up into one line
I sort of just looked over your post when I posted a second ago, and some how missed this part.
I will just say one thing, considering you realize the problem. Instead of incentives for more pvpers to join factions. How about you give suggestions on how to get more people in general to join factions and then do faction related things? How about you offer an idea for a new part of factions, other than just controlling the towns? There are a bunch of Ideas on how to spice up town control, you could add to those if you wish, but maybe an original idea is needed. The problem is not stat loss, it is lack of faction participants. Removing stat loss will only further remove the faction participation, and you will mind as well just make the arties "fel arties" instead of "faction arties" Because really, you are not helping Factions, you are helping pvp.
Edit: By the way, I have nothing against you nor did I ever say you cooked up some scheme. My latest two posts should better explain myself, since you do not seem to understand as of yet I am hoping you will by the time you reach this edit. As I said, I argue with you not because you are wrong about the state of pvp, but because the state of pvp should be changed to how it was, how it should be, and not let to continue on this trend.
I understand the bola timer since you have to start swinging it. But normally a crossbow would already be prepared. If you could see the bolt coming at you like it used to be it would give the targeted player a second to dodge it (by jumping off your mount then remounting) therefore implying some amount of skill and timing. Your idea would just give players even more time to run away which I don't really see necessary.
Stop getting all fussy.
It would make xbow dismounts balanced with the other varieties.
Just a quick thought on dismount and disarm..
These are the two specials that get the most attention (at least from my experience) as being over powered and counter productive to PvP. Some potential quick fixes:
Disarm: Disarm works the same as its current form but when the disarm timer is in effect, your unarmed defense is based off the highest of the following:
1) weapon skill -10
3) Passive defense [(anat + Eval)/2 +20]
When the disarm timer ends, your unarmed defense chance returns to your wrestle or passive defense whichever is higher.
Dismount: Dismount has a base chance to succeed on a successful hit:
1) Bola: Automatic [Proposed Bola Changes HERE
2) Mounted (Lance vs Lance only): 100%
2) Melee: 100%
3) Ranged: 70%
Attacking from a hidden position (Invis spell, hiding, etc) has the following penalties:
1) Dismount Penalty: -30%
2) Damage reduction: 30%
Stealth Skill: Bonus to success rate (+5% for every 40 points)
Ninjitsu: Bonus to success rate while hidden (+5% for every 40 points)
**People who invest more skill in ninjistu and stealth will have a better chance to dismount from a hidden position then those who have less skill in those areas.
We are beating the hell out of this horse ain't we, not that I mind it is all the same as how I see it should be.
One thing though, Disarm still favors the dexxer types more than any mage type. Most mages with a weapon do not have weapon skill or anatomy or wrestling, so disarm will = 0 defense still. I think preventing the spam by having two timers might work best. the same 3 second timer for when you can reequip and a new 30 second timer for when you can be disarmed again. Something like that anyway.
Disarming a person who is an archer, thrower, or melee character loses 100+ skill points when disarmed.
A mage template which has invested 0 points into a weapon, loses 0 usuable skill points when disarmed.
I don't mind mage weapons and think they are a clever addition to Pvp, however a person who builds a template around an item and therefore invests all his/her skill into other areas and neglects physical defense [wep skill, wrestle, eval/anat, parry] should be at a disadvantage over someone who invested their skills into a means of physical defense.
Similiarly, I believe a template that neglects to put any skill into magical defense should likewise be at a disadvantage against magical attacks and why I am hoping for PvP changes that make the use of Apples, and trap boxes more restricted.
A human mage with 120 eval, would actually have something like 90 passive defense while disarmed, I'll need to double check the formula but that is not bad at all.
Not sure why I was thinking the way I was, I use wrestling personally, but at first thought it unfair...But you are correct, things should not be revolving around a single item, not even sets of items. (My original argument to begin with, not sure how I missed it with the mage weapon)
Its a tie!! you fixed the trap box formula, great idea!