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FYI atlantic dupes. Something interesting to see.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RavenWinterHawk, Aug 1, 2008.

  1. FROM A PREVIOUS THREAD but I thought you might like to know how the packing of dupes is being dished out today.

    Join Date: Jun 2008
    Posts: 18 Selling Gold/Val Hams/Verite Hams
    Selling Gold @ $1 per Mil !! ---- 1 Billion+ @ $0.75 per

    Val Hammers - 15m or $14 per, 10+ @ 13m or $12 per, 100+ @ 11m or $10 per

    Verite Hammer - 8m or $7 per, 10+ @ 7m or $6 per, 100+ @ 6m or $5 per



    Thats too funny.

    People told me, youll never see vals for 12 million and verites for under 8 million.

    I have buy add in from 2 weeks ago or so with buy prices about that low. its on this forum somewhere. No one has gotten back to me. Doesnt matter. Im not buying now. Ill wait till they are 5 million gold.

    Oh my point. The duping was so obvious then and even more so now... That you can safely say there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of valorite and verite hammers around.

    The game has (I CANT SAY RUINED) been changed YET again by duping. There is absolutely no reason for a player to have an underpowered set of armour or weapons, today. Being a merchant, the game is now being played not on how UO dictates the creation of items but on how much duping I think is going on. That is crazy.

    Thanks DEVS for the prompt action.

    1. characture transfer (BACK AND FORTH) 1x per month per account.
    2. FREAKING start giving away castles to players that turn in duping mechanics.
    3. Learn how to monitor the creation of items in your game.

    "Scottie can you do a search of atlantic today and give the number of valorite hammers that are on atlantic?"
    "I cant do it captain, I can't do it."
    "I need it now Scottie!"
    "Ok, Captain but it will take sometime. I can tell you. Hmm let me got Fxxxx0.com. (that special website) Lets see there are 86 valorite hammers on UO atlantic."
    "Thanks Scottie, well thats down for the 123 list the previous day. I guess we got a fix for the dupe."


    Are you telling me there is no way to track the creation of high end items in this game?

    Anyway beware. There is a dupe in practice. Or if it was sealed the rewards from the dupe are flooding the realm.

  2. Slasherpvp

    Slasherpvp Guest

    You are correct!! Luna is full of duped runic hammers and arties. I think someone got wind of it and two of the main duped item vendor malls closed shop,lol. Scared of a little fire? lol I'm just saying,hehe.
  3. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    Dev better have a good reason for waiting this long before taking action. Soon, all artifacts and high end combat items will become irrelavant if this continutes.
  4. Erekose

    Erekose Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    May 23, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The damage is already done, and there IS no good reason why this wasn't dealt with a long, long time ago.
  5. christy1221

    christy1221 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I've noticed some rares that I haven't seen for sale in months all of a sudden start popping up. Not sure if it was a dupe or not but I found it strange they had several of the same ones for sell.
  6. Yeah I noticed. Moving them away. HEHE.
    Glad EA acted fast.
  7. When strange it is a dupe.
  8. Kaj

    Kaj Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Dec 23, 2007
    Likes Received:
    I normally don't post in those kind of topics, but when someone is selling 100+ valorite hammers.. Pff.

    Hopefully people like that will get dealt with.

  9. Too late to deal with it. Sadly.
  10. Skwiz

    Skwiz Guest

    Ahh Siege Perilous, how wonderful you are.
  11. Thats why im starting to hang out there

    Assuming the dupe is xshard related.
  12. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Gilfane

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Welcome aboard! :thumbsup:
  13. Nyses

    Nyses Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Jun 10, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I think the think that pisses me off the most about this F*&%ed up situation regarding dupes, it that it has uttery destroyed one of the fun end games for me.

    After all, why should I bother running BOD's for years to gather all the components to finally get that Val hammer, when I can (or anyone can) just plop down a quick 14 mill for a duped one? Not to even mention the fact that, my legit hammer should be worth 50 mill, mine is now worth 14 mill and the weapons and items I can create with it are being devalued as fast as hammers can be used.

    The dupes have made it so,I cannot even feel a sense of accomplishment at finally getting a high end hammer, or Crimson, an ornie, or any other "high end" game item, because they are litteraly a "dime a dozen". I work hard for years to get said item, but it is meaningless, because everyone else already has multiples of them, purchased at bargain rates.

    Thanks soooooo much EA for allowing the game I love to be "violated" yet again. Every day that goes by, should see fixes and content added that makes UO more fun and exciting, not dupes and cheates that destroy yet another reason for legit players to continue to pay their monthy subscriptions.
  14. GalenKnighthawke

    GalenKnighthawke Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I don't know about that...I mean I see what you're saying, and you may be right, I just don't think you are.

    I remember a long, long time ago, the first major duping bans/fixes....A couple of dozen accounts were banned, and some incredibly percentage (80%?) of the gold in the economy just....vanished.

    Now I wasn't on the boards much then, so I don't know, but I'd suspect people were saying the same things. "It's too late, the damage is done."

    -Galen's player
  15. Sadoul

    Sadoul Guest

    I heard grumbling about this back in February. See post below.


    It has been 6 months and still no action. Someone even posted the details on these boards. I read posts concerning this everyday and the devs don't address it all. Where is the emergency patch to fix this. WTF!? :lame:

    I would rather have had it fixed ASAP then wait on a sting operation to catch dummy accounts so the community can see a little more fire in Luna. I might have given them too much credit with the sting operation, but seriously why is this still going on? :please:
  16. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    It is very likely that the dupe is limited to bod rewards, otherwise, you will see crimson, blackrock rift, server rares popping up everywhere, sold in quantity of hundreads.

    I am pretty sure there is is a tracking system in UO that tracks all (at smith)bod rewards. When smith BOD was first introduced, the designer of the BOD (Hanse) ran tracking for the first few days and found some ppl on Atlantic horded most of the low end runic hammers (bronze and down) on that shard. Keep in mind, at that time, even DC/shadow runic hammers are hard to come by. So I am sure they can, if they want, find out who has how many valorite/verite hammers on each shard.

    Is it too late? Not really. First they should deal with the ppl who has mass quantities of the val/verite hammers. Second, they should nerf the highly duped/scripted val hammer and barbed kits by changing the reward table of the bod system so that they are a lot more easier to get (like gold hammer/horned kit). Third, they should add consideration of the dupe in their current pass of weapon revamp. Specifically, they should put more higher end, more desirable weapons/armors in the high end monsters but make those items "un-powderable" or with a reasonable timer before they break.

  17. Dont get me wrong.
    You can remove the hammers, ban accounts, and all that.
    They should do it.

    But the damage again has changed game play.
    I can only speak from my end as a merchant.

    There are to many uber weapons and armour pieces out there from these dupes. They wont be removed. And I am in the position of game play as to buy runics to create vendable items. My golds and aggys are pretty much devalued. All gained by gold or turn ins.

    Its a game. Its not life. Its not really a morality thing. I save that for raising a family and RL. Right now in game there are cheap verite hammers. Whats my reward for not buying some. (PS. I waiting till they are 5 mill each now.)There is now reward. Its a game.

    General rule of thumb is the player base shouldnt try harder then the game developers to correct problems. We arent getting paid for that, we are paying to play. We did our job. We pointed it out.

    As far as a playing a game, the game has been changed once again by duping. Its become my opinion now that duping is part of the game scape and you have to incorporate it into everything you buy.

    How am I going to address duping.
    Report it to DEVS.
    The report it to player base and provide some sensible buying guide lines.
    Buy at smart prices.

    Save just saying no for real life and more important issues.

    I really think at all levels.
    Be it
    a merchant,
    BOD collector
    Rares collector

    I think it affects everyone.
    Just in game, not life and all that.
  18. the only way to fix this is to place ten of each runic hammers and ten barbed kits in every ones bank box only when there is no market will the dupers stop of course people could just not buy them..............
  19. You know.
    In a way your are right.
    Seal the dupe.
    Remove the dupers. Not that they are hiding now

    And give every body some hammers and kits and let them burn away.

    It really wouldnt hurt anything.

    it be nice if no one bought. but that wont happen. and wed be trying harder then the DEVS. Or to be fair maybe harder then EA puts resources in job place for the DEVS. Either way.
  20. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    May 16, 2008
    Likes Received:
    They dupe the BOD. Not the hammer. When they turn in the BOD it creates a new hammer. They are actually harder to track that way.
  21. Lord Kotan

    Lord Kotan Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    May 16, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Maybe they'll give us black rock turn in at end of summer for a chance for aggy, verite, val hammers, and B-kits.
  22. Sadoul

    Sadoul Guest

    If you believe the player that posted the details concerning the dupe on these boards, the dupe has NOTHING to do with x-sharding. The dupe with x-sharding involved crashing the shard to get reverts. I haven't noticed alot of this. DISCLAIMER: I did not see the actual posted details but he gave hints before he did it that had nothing to do with x-sharding.

    Also, if you believe the player that posted the details, then anything can be duped. I think the problem with duping is that it usually leads to two items with the same code or ID. I am not at all a techy, but I think every non-stackable item has its own unique code. But consider LBODs. If you have a LBOD for a valorite runic hammer that has been filled and you dupe it, you now have two items with the same code. But you recall to the smith and turn in the duped LBOD and voila, you now have a freshly game generated runic hammer with its own unique code and the duped LBOD is gone. This is why I believe the dupe is concentrating on runic hammers. The duped bod is turned in and the new hammer is generated, destroying evidence of the dupe. If you duped the hammer itself, not only would they all have the same code, but 20 hammers on the vendor all with 42 durability would be a dead giveaway.

    To the mods, I don't believe that I have crossed any lines since I did not give details nor do I know how to dupe. I just wanted to dispel rumors that the dupe is specific to BOD rewards.
  23. MYUO

    MYUO Guest

    You wanted to "dispel rumors that the dupe is specific to BOD rewards" but your post only talked about valorite LBOD and hammer. I am a little confused.
  24. packrat

    packrat Guest

    It is way too late. After 9 years in UO I have seen many things duped and know the routines. Until they do something about the 15 day free accounts things will never change.
    Let me explain how it works. Someone figures a way to dupe (lets use hammers as an example). Once he gets it to duplicate, he opens a 15 day account and loads it up. He does this a few times with a few accounts. Then he closes the accounts. Then he waits a few months to let things cool down, then he gets another dummy account and rents vendors that are not on his house and sales them. He has enough stored to sit it out (some where around a year) and let the Devs do their burnings. Dupers do not care if they get a couple of accounts banned. They have 20 more that they never even had to pay to open.
    I may be wrong, but I think if an account is closed for a short amount of time the items stored on that account can't be traced or tracked.
    If there are 100s in game now, no telling how many are stored away waiting for the Devs to start burning and wait for prices to go back up before they start activating the old accounts.
  25. Im with you brother.
  26. Ah shows you what I know.

  27. So actually, we could have all dupes from a very old dupe. Even more clever.

    You know why is it the players seem to have a good sense of how things might be done and ideas how to counter.


    oh well.
  28. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    The devs have already stated that the item database isn't sophisticated enough to restore items lost from people who were hacked. And assuming that the people behind this have half a brain, that doesn't give much hope for tracking them down.

    Not that it would really matter much even if they did track them down, in this day of dynamic IPs and single-use credit card numbers. The dupers could be back up and running in a matter of minutes once the attention died down.

    It rests on the player base to stop buying from these people and giving them a reason to dupe. You can say "oh, I'll wait for prices to go down to 2 million before I buy" all you want. The dupers have an almost unlimited supply, they don't care if they sell one at 10 million or five at 2 million. In the end you are still giving them what they want, and supporting their destructive behavior.
  29. packrat

    packrat Guest

    I also think the large black rocks have been duped. I have seen many big black rocks for sale lately. One guy was selling 10 large black rocks in Luna for 500k each last week. I asked to see them and he showed me the pack with 10 black rocks. He told me if I bought all 10 he would sale them for 400,000 each. I didn't buy them because I found it odd that someone would have 10 and was in a hurry to dump them. Then I went to an auction and there were some for sale there. Another guy in the audience was selling some off to the side.
    It just seems odd to me that all of the sudden everyone is trying to sale big black rocks.
  30. MaryForUo

    MaryForUo Sage
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 29, 2004
    Likes Received:
    UO is trash now, devs work is ridiculous...
    i'm planning to close my accounts soon.
    nothing to say more then what i always say...devs do not care about this, they have better to do in RL!

    Look at the 25k*2 points that each one can get fast and easly...lol...great job devs!
    great programming work! my compliments!

    in the last 2 days, on atlantic , the total points go from 600mil, to almost 700mil...lol

    i dont know you, but i'm planning on closing account soon!

    i want respect and good programmers, not currently one, for the rl $$ i pay to play this game!
  31. It like saying if all americans stop buying gas for 2 days the prices will come down. The selling of dupes is going to be handled by not buying.

    Any way how would you determine if a weapon or piece of armor is from a duped hammer. You cant.

    Not buying isnt the answer. I am personally going to educated people on what not to pay because dupes for the most part have become common place and are in all aspects of the game

    A legit process valorted is worth 35 million.
    Based on the level of duping of valorites. The current value in my opinion is 5 to 10 million.

    How about EA getting a call from the game when some guy turns ins a valorite hammer bod.
    If they get more then 2 a day something is wrong. ANYTHING SOMETHING.
  32. Well that I can ateast that I have 100's from mining and buying for 10k each before they had value. I think thats pretty common. I still have 100 and 100's of smaller ones. The smaller ones can still be mined.

    Everyone held them thinking they would be turn in points. They didnt put value on them so people are selling. Id speculate on LBROCKS at 50k each. Something tells me they will be a good merchant item by events end.
  33. Thats why I gave my sonoma house away.
    Closing it down fully this weekend.
    Im not quitting but shrinking.

    I once had 7 accounts.
    I shed some everytime the game gets screwed. Why? Im not ready to quit but not happy enough to hold more then 2 or 3 accounts now.

    Simple. I agree we pay real life cash. SO I am paying less until the game gives me more.
  34. Slasherpvp

    Slasherpvp Guest

    I would have to totally agree that getting rid of the 15 day free account, couldn't hurt, only help. It is not the main and only fix for dupers, but it has been part of their tools for years. That same tool has also helped the big house sellers on the Atlantic shard hold 10 or more max storage homes to sell at one time. Sometimes those rare castles that cost an arm and two legs with your next new born also. Yes, I opened this can of worms but it was brought up above as far as the free accounts and this applies. Dupers and many others have used that free account as one of their tools in one way or another for years. This isn't news to any vets and the only ones that might jump in here and get upset because I'm aware it's used for more than one thing would be the ones wanting to get millions of gold from you as often as they can. It is a fact, not meant to offend and I don't have any sympathy for quick reply billionaires that say it should have never been mentioned. It has affected our economy and with very little housing space on Atlantic, let us see how many can just run out and find a spot to place a castle. You will have to, 99% of the time, deal with somone who does this regularly with many accounts. There are only the occasional exceptions. The free accont going away would certainly get my vote, if I had one, for more than one reason.
  35. And besides.
    The dupes.
    Some bright player basically said it. The dupes are be put on temp accounts and closed for a few months. Later they can be open and used.

    Burning the houses and banning the player doesnt matter.

    EA should get some **LLS and make dupe public knowledge. BINGO. Dupers are ruined. When the figure out how to fix it. It is removed for all of us.

    EA should stop keeping things secret and consider duping a rift in time and tell us how to do it.

    We can pretend its a game event.
  36. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    I think it is foolish to buy hammers from these vendors. You certainly can't claim you didn't realize the hammers were duped. It's pretty freakin obvious that something's wrong when a vendor has 20+ valorite hammers.

    Don't think you can just buy a hammer from one of these places and consume it without getting in trouble. Who's to say the devs didn't add some logging to track the purchase of duped hammers?
  37. Well you are absolutely right. The is no value of 15 day account for a player, less you dupe. Business end it is also useless.

    Make UO free with stipulations to try it out.

    Basically the free account theory is I give you 15 days and you give me your credit card and I bill you after 15 days unless you say no.

    Its a lousy model and its abused.

    Like I said and other have said Make UO free.

    You open A FREE acount and get this.
    A player: ONLY ONE.
    A backpack: HOLDS only 25 items.
    A bank: HOLDS only 25 items.
    NO house rights in any form but you can go to a create housing zone to see what housing is about. Its in lala land and has no realness but to let you experiment and see it.

    And other stuff that lets you play the game.

    If you decide you like it then you have to pay for full active account.

    Potential for abuse. Sure. But limited to holding 50 items. Sure you could have 20 of them and hold 1000 items.

    BUT THE KICKER IS they dont refresh. WOOHOO. THEY DONT REFRESH. You can use it for a month and it dies and you have to start again. You cant close it and come back to it for the secret storage.


    Oh spare me the loss. If you are loving it for 29 days and building skill then you will buy the game.


    Oh and EA, you would get a lot more people checking out the game this way then asking for a credit card. Come on. Time for some new ideas.
  38. packrat

    packrat Guest

    I am doing the same thing. I had 4 accounts. I closed 1 a few months ago, I am in the process of moving and turning things in to close another account. And if things don't change soon, I will be closing another. I will keep one for sure but, I'm slowly losing interest in a game that accommodates dupers and scripters. There is no reason it takes this long to deal with dupers. All they say is they like fire. I have seen this a 100 times. They might as well tell the dupers to run and hide before they start burning. Just do it and stop giving the dupers time to hide their goods and get rid of their stocks. That would be the same thing as cops printing the address of their next raid in the morning news paper. And looking surprised that there is nothing there when they get there.
  39. Sadoul

    Sadoul Guest

    This is what has always been wrong with the system. The buyers get screwed and the duper walks away thousands of $ in his pocket. Vine cord sandals are the perfect example. What about the guy that bought the first duped pair for $1500 (don't really know how much, just speculating)? You can't claim that he knew they were duped. I guess he could have sold them after he realized but he would be screwing another player. Either way the cheater always wins. What does he lose that he can't buy back with all his $ or gold.

    Just to dispute, not everyone uses the taboo search sites and most of the time the person stacks them on the vendor so it looks like one. Only after you buy it do you realize there are more. You are supposed to quit looking for good deals on vendors because the devs can't turn out a good product?
  40. Well I suppose, EA could ban the players for buying them because after all we cause dupers. If it werent for us buying them then the dupers would go out of business. But EA created the game, that attracted me, maybe its their fault.

    I mean I see its my fault. Because when they first started duping and I didnt realize it, I shelled out some gold for them, I thought not a bad deal.

    Then more and more came and the vendors next to me had tons and tons of mage armor and killer weapons. That were selling.

    So I upgraded my warror.

    But more an more and more and more and more hammers came out and more and more armor filled the armor vendors and some really nice 5 mod maces were dirt cheap.

    So I bought 2 more hammers at 9 million and made garbarge. I did my part and burned out 2 hammers.

    Now Im suppose to say the 2 hammers I bought might get me banned.
    I bought it from a vendor.

    Im not buying anymore unless the fail to the 5 million range because thats about all they are worth now. BECAUSE ITS CHEAPER to buy the armor and weapons. SO are you telling me I should stop buying everything related to runic hammer or sewing kits now. When can I start buying again?

    You know (not you but players) that for 5 million now you can buy a 70's suit with Mana regen and LRC.

    The product made from the hammers is cheaper to buy then the hammers.

    That is why the prices of hammers are going down. The dupers are duping themselves.

    Why spend 15 million on a valorite hammer when you can buy a suit and weapon for that cost or less. AND YOU CAN NEVER LOSE IT.
  41. Yeah smooth.
    Next week we will be banning the dupers.
    Might as well say that.

  42. Exactly so I stop buying.
    Maybe you live next to me and craft something sweet. So now I assume your a duper.

    Whoa. That makes the game fun.

    I like how EA hasnt said a word to anyone. Players here have a thousand ideas to make scripting and duping harder etc.

    What do we get for it. NOTHING.
    Yeah I mean not kudos and no game improvement.

    So yeah I wont quit. I just pay less.
  43. Right now on Pacific Val hammers are a little bit less than 2 mil cheaper than Verite hammers, and have been for about a week or so now. Where Val hammers used to run 50mil just months ago, now they're down to 17 mil. If the price keeps falling and nothing is done about it I don't know if I'll be able to resist the temptation to pick one up for a few mil myself. I've only managed to get the large Bod and 1 of the smalls for a Val hammer, and this is after almost 4 yrs of collecting Bods. I have to ask myself why I even bother saving the Val hammer Bods instead of just selling them.
  44. Good to see xsharding is helping the supply come to your end.
    I dont blame you.
    Wait till you see the uber armor and weapons that start popping.

    Lets see...
    Dupe valorites or regain stored supply on atlantic.
    Sell 1000 on atlantic but now price is to low.
    Pack up other 1000 dupes and go to Pacific
    Start at 30 million and work way down.
    When price gets to low xshard to where-ever.
    Go back to atlantic eventually and repeat.

    I guess EA can see the xsharder with 700 valorite hammers.


    Jeremy youre around, please help me understand the insanity.
  45. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    If you believe that the dupers are going to inevitably get your gold no matter what you do, then why are you still playing the game? Why would you support the bottom line of a company that doesn't take a hard stand against cheaters and lets them profit at the cost of the average player?
  46. I had 7 accounts. I have less. I really dont care if dupers get my gold. I really dont care if the make a living selling items. It think thats fine.

    My complaint is the lack of action.

    So how do I demonstrate it. I speak my mind. I try and convey the intensity without calling people names.

    When it comes to companies...
    I spend less.

    I am spending less on UO right now because of the lack of action.

    Im good with that.

    Its the same thing I do at Walmart. I shop there because the prices are cheap.

    I get in line. When the line is stupidly long and the manages only have 2 of 10 registers open... I say can you open another line.

    NO you cant. Okay I leave and I leave my stuff.

    I dont over react and say boycott them. I just dont spend my money that day. I still go back.

    UO has other aspects that are fun. Its a game. I dont take it beyond that.
  47. Restroom Cowboy

    Restroom Cowboy Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran

    Jul 1, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Oh but you forget sir that up till a few days ago it was very easy for a person to take a trial account code and call customer service to have it manually activated WITHOUT A CREDIT CARD OR ID! Now how about taking this free trial account and booting it up using a neighbors wireless? The people who were intelligent enough to do this will be the ones who see no loss from it. Funny thing is two of my posts were removed for naming off a couple of these individuals. (I do understand its against the rules to do it...I dont debate that, however I will say it was still a kick in the teeth to see this information go to waste.)

    Lets not forget the last round of shutdowns we had. Yessir, lets not forget about those certain individuals who not only returned...but have continually mocked this games existence since. Its ironic how a few can *destroy* a game for so many...and then get away with it again and again. Gloomy outlook on things I know, but was Beerman72 so far offbase afterall? This started again over two monthes back now, no solution in sight?
  48. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    There are 2 very simple solutions to this problem.

    #1 - Stop giving out Val Hammers (NPC gives back the BOD) and toggle all existing ones to being QUEST ITEM and cannot be toggled off.

    Tada. The Devs can now scan for every existing hammer and see who owns more than is possible through legitimate means.
    (not to mention they couldn't Dupe any more of them since the existing hammers would be logged, and any new hammers would Have to be from duping.)

    #2 - Uniquify them. While every item in the game you can interract with has a unique identity, the game knows to generate new ones for newly created items (including through dupes).

    So just add 2 more tags (like the Exceptional and Material tags), but don't send these tags' info to the client. Keep them inhouse. Both tags generated on the item at the moment it is recieved as an artifact-drop to pack, or as a quest reward from a BOD etc.

    The first tag being incrimental in the system.. 0001 for the first one handed out, 0002 for the second, 000A for the 10th and so on.
    The second tag simply being the Character ID of the character who recieved it.

    So if you end up with more than 1 copy of Valorite Hammer 0005, you know someone is duping.
    A quick check of the second tag tells you who Legitimately earned it, and you can start there to find out where the hammer has been since.

    And no matter what method they use to catch these people...
    Banning 1 account of someone who has 15 on the same credit card is pointless.
    Sure they might have 3 credit cards, but if the first 2 are banned, they will really be thinking twice about duping/cheating on the 3rd.
  49. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    "Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."
  50. Good quote.

    You know Aristotle feared democracies would be over run by the wealthy. He believed democratic governments would lose touch with the common man. He figured the common man was to busy working the farms to have time for politics and thus a disconnect would form. The wealthy didnt have much to do and time to kill. Funny. He was right.

    Indifference allowed Nazi Germany to kill millions.

    The game isnt real life.

    But Ill be standing with you when real life issues becomes a matter of action.

    Maybe we are both voting for Obama.