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I can appreciate the dont buy sentiment.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by RavenWinterHawk, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. How would all you logic user work with this scenario on the dont buy?

    Lets start with a Valorite being worth 40 million

    COST Players THOUGHT
    40 million (safe to buy)
    35 million (safe to buy)
    30 million (safe to buy?, why such a deal?)

    The above safe cause of changes to bods. Yet they could be duped

    25 million (start to wonder, a dupe)
    20 million (duping)
    15 million (duping and wow look at the mess)

    At any point in buying, you are buying a duped item potentially.
    At which buying point would you ban a player?

    Is it on quantity?
    Is it on price?
    Is it that the duping word was officially spread on stratics and known?

    Just wondering.

    Oh or is it where you buy them from?

    Is a vendor that has 25 on them a duper?
    Is a vendor that has 1 on them legit?

    What if they hammers are 15 million all over the place but one vendor has them for 30 million? Is he not a duper because his price is higher?

    Just wondering x2.

    There are few absolutes. Not buying is not an absolute. Anyone bought a barbed kit for 2 million or so?

    Not buying is an option. When should that option kick in? And there lies the problem.
  2. Fortyniner

    Fortyniner Guest

    If the guy next to me is selling barbed kits for 2 mill I'm not going to be able to charge 4 mill. If I'm competing with dupers I still have to match their prices or I won't sell anything. So you can't draw any conclusions as to the genuineness of my goods from the prices.

    Also remember that the vast majority of players don't read Stratics, and probably don't know about the relative rarity of items. Joe Newbie doesn't know that Valorite hammers only appear a few times a year and that the guy with 30 of them must have duped them - he may not even know what duping is. So it is most unfair to punish him on the basis of what he "ought to have known" - either by banning him for possession or by deleting the item that he paid for.

    I think that if you buy something that is on open display on a vendor you should be protected.
  3. RoycroftLS

    RoycroftLS Guest

    To be fair, if Joe Newbie is so financially well off that he has the tens of millions of gold laying around to spend on valorite hammers, Joe isn't exactly a newbie anymore. And I would assume that most people would do some research into seeing how such an expensive item is used before spending a truckload of gold on it.
  4. Tjalle

    Tjalle Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Gilfane

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Well, especially now after these bannings when so many people are afraid to buy the cheap stuff cuz that´s a sign of the items being duped, some dupers might just put on a val hammer on their vendor and price it 45M so that people would think it´s a legit hammer and buy it without feeling that they risk being banned. But then the duper would still be making gold and the buyer would still risk his/her account...

    So I guess nowadays players can´t tell if an item is shady just by looking at the pricetag...

    Heh, I hope you understood what I meant. :p
  5. Well if the are going ban for quantity, I have 11 agapite hammers. Yeah. All bought when they were rewards and cheaper.

    I also have 60 tokuno dyes. All when they were cheap 250k to 500k when they were rewards. NO not the bright colors, the metal colors.

    If you take the stuff I have 80 horned kits. No barbs. Bought tons of horned kits for 100k before the change. What if horned kits go up? and are duped in the future.
    What if the tok dyes go up.

    Agapites could be bought for 2 million a moved back up to 7 million before the dupe. I can sell them now close to what the verites are going for.

    Im just saying, It be nice to have some word from EA on quantity issues.
  6. Wenchkin

    Wenchkin Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran Alumni

    May 16, 2008
    Likes Received:
    In all honesty I wouldn't buy any runic kits of any description, because there is no guaranteed way to ensure they're clean. Price means very little as legit crafters may price lower simply to attract a buyer. You also get resellers who may be adding a sizeable markup onto their goods - and all will claim they bought from clean sellers whether it's true or not.

    A legitimate crafter who gets a high end runic isn't likely to see another that soon, so by that logic, I think it's unlikely they'd appear on a vendor at all.

    Lower end kits would be available from those legit crafters, but I think "getting your own" would be the best idea there.

  7. Theo_GL

    Theo_GL Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Sep 2, 2003
    Likes Received:
    IMHO NO ONE should be banned for having duped items.

    They should ban people that they can prove EXECUTED the dupe. Period.

    It is a fools game to think everyone who buys an item has any idea that it is a dupe or not. Yes, the price might be lower than normal - but you always run across people not aware of the value of an item.

    Hell the value of runics fluctuates based on the changes they make to crafting.

    When they nerfed spined kits - the kits went down to 10k each or less. Oh no - should we not buy because they might be duped?

    Thats ********.

    The people that should be banned are those that did the actual duping and not the people who bought items from vendors at low prices. If it looks and smells like a val hammer - then how can you punish someone because they bought it in a vendor shop?

    I hope for EA's sake that they are able to determine WHO duped the items and they go after those people - not the end consumer that is in possession of the item.

    Its like arresting someone on the street because they have a $20 bill that was used in a drug trade. How the hell do they know and they aren't involved in the actual CRIME.

    The more this stuff happens - the more I'm in favor of some sort of wipe/delete of items.

    What chance do I have as a crafter who has never obtained a val hammer now that hundreds have been put into circulation and likely burned? How can I make weapons to compete with the thousands that now exist given i have a very hard time getting a val hammer?

    Lets leave skills/rune books/houses behind and purge the shards and let people start over.

    This is dumb. Nothing has value anymore.
  8. Leto

    Leto Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    It's impossible to mark an exact point in the 'price line' ofcourse. It's all about using common sense.

    When it comes to something (supposedly) as rare as Valorite Hammers I'd get suspicious if there were more 2 or 3 on the market at the same time (on Europa). Mind you, I wouldn't pass judgement at that point yet. When a week later there are 10 on the market the hammer will come down though.

    And about Joe Newbie, he won't have even 15mil to blow on runics. Even if he does; nobody in his right mind would without spend 15mil or more in an item without doing some research if just to find out what the item does. Even the slightest amount of research will point out the rarity of the item and most likely the fact dupes are circulating.
  9. Ok Again why is it us as paying customers responsibility to know all these things. I dont know the price of a Val runic hammer from anything else. So if i came upon a vendor selling one for a mil, i wouldt know any diff. Isnt it EA who should be responsible for making sure all this isnt in the game in the first place? I mean some people dont read the forums, they just play the game, and there is nothing that says you have to read the forums and know all this. EA should take these items out of the game, not punish people because they buy them or have them when they didt know. There isnt some neon sign on it saying i am duped, or i am an illegal item.
  10. Fortyniner

    Fortyniner Guest

    I mis-spoke in calling him Joe Newbie. I should have said Jill AveragePlayer. She might have saved up for years to buy a valorite hammer. If she doesn't read Stratics she won't know that her years of savings are likely to disappear.
  11. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    I love shopping...but these days i'm scared to death to buy stuff.
  12. I agree.
    How am i suppose to now how many valorite hammer are on atlantic?
    You cant unless you use a search site that tells you?

    So it be a good idea for players to go to the search site and see how many of a specific item are around?

    That is ridiculouos. Its not the buyer.

    Now MY POINT. When the dupe starts and say maybe 10 are around on vendors but hundreds in the dupers bank. Are you suppose to go and look around on every vendor. NO.

    Now when it got as ridiculous as it did last week. Then I can see how you go to one house and see 25.

    Im not saying BUY or DONT buy. Im saying EA needs to help out a log in.

    Thats fair.

    But somehow to be fair... I think EA is probably not banning for 10 hammers. I do know people are greedy. Maybe that set a high number like 25 hammers. That would make sense.

    And I also know people tell half truths. So... Maybe word on the parameters might be nice to dispell misinformation and my paranoia.

    But what about that guy with uber armour.
    Or the people that bought armour.
    I know I made some uber armour from gold and aggy hammers. Can you tell the diff.
    Did the guy who burned 20 runics of val, get off free?

    Who knows.
  13. Strawberry

    Strawberry Guest

    Reasonable research on item prices is seeing how much they are on other vendors on your shard. It isn't going to a message board and wading through dozens of "Tram v. Fel" and "Newbies Stole My Melissa Pearls" threads. If EA wanted everyone to know not to buy certain items they should have put up a login message.
  14. Landicine

    Landicine Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 23, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I'm not scared, but I'd suggest caution. Most of the items I buy are so small or minor that they aren't worth duping. Why would someone dupe dull copper runics or potion kegs when they can dupe things worth >1000 times more?

    I'm going to stay away from items with price tags of several million or more for a few weeks. I figure by then the dupers will have reverted to scripters.
  15. Sarphus

    Sarphus Guest

    What you suggest should be done would not work. The dupers aren't using accounts that can be tied to anything of real value. They just use freebie accounts to do the deed and get RL cash.

    Also, the proper analogy to the ppl that got banned is it's kinda like getting caught with 7 or 8 stolen cars and claiming you didn't know they were stolen even though you got them at > 50% below market value.

    People didn't get banned for having one duped hammer. They got banned for having several duped hammers, which pretty easily implies they knew exactly what they were doing. They were taking advantage of the duping situation and trying to illegally enhance their characters (cheating).
  16. Kith Kanan

    Kith Kanan Guest

    mine where all bought off my main shard europa , mainly Atl and GL , shards with a larger player base and a hell of alot more vendors.. thats why I xfered there in the first place !!! And the vendors did not have 10's in stock , the most I bought was 3 verite's at 14.9m each and I was all gitty , thinking I made a nice deal and what I could make with them... boy did I get fooled...
  17. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    Yeah but god knows one of those dull could be duped.....

    Who knows?

    Some dupers might dupe dull hammers aswell to put them in the same vendor to make it seem like they 'got all those valorites' with bods...

    This truly IS a reason to be scared to death.

    If being in posession of a duped item gets you banned :S
    Then they'll have to ban a lot of people...cause i think by now..a lot of people are in posession of a duped item but simply don't know it...
  18. I could actually afford verite hammers at 20 million.
    I pretty much just buy and sell and for the last 3 years, there hasnt been anything for me to buy. So I save my gold.

    Even houses are like 20 million on atlantic for 18x18.
    I dont pvp, dont need uber stuff.

    Suppose I spent 100 million on verite hammers and have been holding them because I dont want 100 1 million checks. Or whatever. Is that enought to get me banned.

    Now granted 5 or 10 valorite hammers might not be something someone could buy.

    But verites were.

    Barbed kits a 2 million 2.5 million have been around years now. I could have 50 of those sitting from buying.
    I dont but have lots of horned kits.

    Clarity would be nice.
    MY POINT. What can i buy now and when can I start buying.

    Verite hammers are out at 14 million now.

    Seriously, Jeremy, EA, a little guidance. Does the price reflect legality.
    Any guidance?
  19. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    EA/Mythic can hold me responsible for possessing illegal items acquired through duping and scripting when they are able to fulfill the following...

    Until they, EA, not some blow-holes on stratics...

    1)communicate that certain items are duped, or
    2)provide us with some means to identify whether we possess said items, or
    3)produce some announcement which reaches 100% of the player base,

    they are justified in banning, wiping, canceling, punishing players that possess dupes.

    Until that time.. every single duper needs to be removed from the game. Their possessions need to be dispersed to the entire player base, and/or they need to be publically hung in the town square.

    This current action is draconian (no pun intended). It is aggregious and capricious. It punishes innocent people, provides bad customer service, and jeopardizes the product they wish to sell.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
  20. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    How exactly do you know that peeps didn't get banned for having exactly 1 duped item? Are you part of this process? Do you work for EA? How do you know every single player that has been banned has come here to stratics and posted? How do you know that every one who has been banned should have known the item was duped? Do you have some program which checks the id's of all these items and compares it to EA generated items? How do you know that people read these boards? How do you know that every player on every shard knows exactly what every item SHOULD be sold for?

    There are so many assumptions running rampant on these boards all weekend long. It's making my head spin. Please peeps.. take a moment and think before you type. There's a big difference between the assumptions you are making and the truth.

    (sorry Sarphus. this post is not directed to you specifically.. just had a good quote I wanted to use).

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
  21. the 4th man

    the 4th man Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Jul 31, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Maybe players should stop buying gold from dupers to buy these things and earn them.....yes it takes long, but is it worth losing your account over??

    Is buying your way to the point of nothing left to gain, a real game? I doubt it. Too many kids, I'm talking 20's and younger, get a game and need a cheat to finish it.....why?

    Appreciations gone.
  22. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:

    The problem RWH is that your premise is flawed.

    Price is NOT the issue when buying duped items. The issue is that when you start seeing items in FAR GREATER quantities than should be possible. THAT is the point at which you STOP buying that item.

    Wasn't it interesting that every time a Vine Cord came for sale from so many different places that IT was the real one and all the others were the dupes?

    Shouldn't it also be IMMEDIATELY questionable when people can restock runics that drop even under the loosened BOD rules at a MAXIMUM MAYBE once per year INSTANTLY when you buy them?

    As I said to another poster (I know who, but I'm not going to call them out), if you're buying something, regardless of price, and you're buying it at a pace of 2 to 4 per MONTH and it's something that MIGHT drop once per YEAR throughout the entire game, you should really start to ask yourself if you're getting the real deal.

    Once an item breaks the plausibility limit on number in existence, it's time to say NO to buying them... especially from people where you do not have ANY proof on where THEY obtained the item to begin with.
  23. I hope that the obvious disaster that has become the economy will push EA even closer the the nuclear option of deleting almost everything to start over. Not going to happen but who knows at this rate.

    I would love to participate in buy low and sell high ... i haven't because i know they're dupes and i'd be reselling dupes. It would be nice to get a notice from EA that they've fixed duping, they've gotten all the dupes and now it is legitimate to buy low and sell high.
  24. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:

    One other thing. A higher price for an item does NOT guarantee authenticity. It could just as easily be someone buying duped items and "flipping" them for a profit.
  25. Lady_Mina

    Lady_Mina Guest

    Well i guess we'll never know for sure...if what we're buying is real or a dupe.

    So it's best to decrease the shopping for now...
  26. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:

    It's best to decrease shopping for CERTAIN things.

    The likelyhood that an SOS, Powder of Fort, Rarity 4 Artifact, and whatnot is being duped is absurdly low. Why waste time on a couple tens of thousands when you can dupe items worth millions. ANYTHING in the millions should be treated with caution.

    That means there are times when you DO have to say that the best option is to NOT buy the item.
  27. Radun

    Radun Guest

    what's the point of having money in the game, then?
  28. love2winalot

    love2winalot Guest

    Who here knew they were to only suppost to drop once a year? If you asked me, and most non stratics posters, drop rates on any 10 things in the game they would get 9 of them wrong. I agree with Theo, it is the responsibility of the game, and game mechanics, and EA, and NOT forcing the players to have to guess.

    This is just like in RL, it is so much easier to target the buyer, than it is the seller, or the supplier. Look at Tradespot from a while back when even they got caught up in the duping and such? Most players do not dupe, Buuuut, stuff enough money down their shorts, and they will at least start to think about.
  29. Basara

    Basara UO Forum Moderator
    Moderator Professional Governor Stratics Veteran Wiki Moderator Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter

    Jul 16, 2003
    Likes Received:

    Given the changes to runics back at the beginning of the year, it boggles my mind as to why anyone would even buy barbed kits or valorite hammers, as Horned kits and gold/Agapite hammers put out nearly same quality pieces per kit (thanks to the number of uses) as the high-end stuff, only just lacking one property...

    And, it is almost certain that those runics wouldn't be the subject of any duping - furthermore, a horned runic is absurdly easy to get just from filling BODs.

    I never have the need to buy runics, as I have as many of the sewing runics as I can use just from BODs - and would never think of selling them. If I want more, I fill the BODs and turn them in.

    higher smith runics are a bit different, but I've gotten 20 bronze, 3 gold and an agapite runic in the last 6 months, and would only need to buy/trade 2 small BODs if I feel like rushing to a Verite. Again, where's the rush?

    IT's that "gotta have the best now" attitude, compared to the more "old-fashioned" self-reliance / "good things come to those who wait/take their time" one, that has landed so many people in trouble.

    (though not all of them - some of the people with bans got there from buying too many duped rares - a completely different deadly sin)