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Imagine This UO

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Azaroth Dragon, Dec 22, 2010.

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  1. Imagine a UO where UO:Renaissance never happened.

    The same problems existed. They're not fantasy. This is perhaps... an alternate history exercise for you, but not an exercise in catapulting facts away when they're inconvenient.

    It's 1999, and you've got massive problems with PKing and griefing. UO has no PvE endgame, and PvE games are beginning to launch and dominate the market.

    You're the head honcho. You can do as you please.

    Perhaps you choose to keep UO unique and different than all of the stuff that's being launched, worked on, and surely planned in the future. You see the success of EQ and understand that UO is what it is, and must play to its strengths to separate itself from the pack.

    Be true to yourself, UO. What the cool kids are doing is irrelevant.

    Perhaps you choose to find solutions by using and empowering the incredible community you already have, giving them true power over their own world to shape it as they please -- or have the bravery and dedication for.

    Perhaps the core theme shouldn't move from Community -> to Locked Down Trammel Land, but from Community -> Community Empowered.

    To fix the PK problem, you shy away from Trammel - understanding that the open, virtual world of UO is difficult to replicate and happens to be what its players love. UO is about community, it's about every single person within that community (no matter how they spend their time) - and it's about the melting pot that all of these players and playstyles create and exist within.

    That's what UO is, that's what UO was, and that's what UO ought to be. That's what Ultima Online is best at.

    Trammel, or a PK switch, is presented to you in the board room. You decide that "perhaps we'll be a bit more brave, attack this more.. UO style."

    Player Justice has been attempted again and again, never working.. always failing. However, all of the systems implemented have revolved around punshing the bad guy. Why not reward the good guy?

    You introduce Paladins - a fraternal order for the few, the brave, the bold... that would dare turn away evil from your world.

    Why be a Paladin in such a harsh world dominated by reds? Well, for one, we'll incentivize it.

    Paladins, while unable to participate in O/C or any other PvP combat outside of Red-vs-Blue, are provided strong incentive. Rewards for killing murderers.

    Nothing neon, nothing overpowered, and certainly nothing that can be used against anyone but a murderer.. but strong incentives none the less.

    The citizens of Britannia are provided tools and rewards for tracking down and killing murderers. For instance, perhaps an orb that acts as a live beacon, suggesting coordinates for crimes committed.

    Your three point plan goes as such:

    • Incentivize Good Guys
    • Penalize Bad Guys
    • Console Victims

    The third part being important, and quite largely overlooked in any player justice system when it should never be. Part of the red penalty can be a price to ressurrect at the Chaos Shrine, and an equal divide of this cost can be given to his or her victims, along with a classy little note from Lord British.

    Hey, something that simple might just be better than nothing.

    You're allowing the victim to know that the murderer was caught and dispatched, and providing them consolation in a tangible form that will ease their suffering as they're buying cool new stuff.

    In the end, something like this is ultimately tweakable until you find just the right balance.

    Want reds to concentrate more on the good guys instead of lashing out against newbies?

    Introduce Dread Lords, with a way to shackle and trap Paladins in the depths of Hythloth, as well as a stacking damage buff for a string of Paladins killed - deflecting malicious intent toward the Paladins and away from the newbies of the world, for fear that their awesome damage buff will dissipate the second they kill a player other than a Paladin.

    Not everyone PvPs of course, and not everyone is a crack PvPer. Keeping up with the reds is difficult, even with a full set of Paladin Armor.

    For this, we introduce Detectives - a non-combat way for players to police the world, by collecting clues at crime scenes, piecing them together and turning them in to release NPC bounty hunters on murderers that would place them in Yew Jail.

    Now, of course you can tune these systems until the activity of PKs in your world meets your desired goals. What are the Paladin rewards? How much do they cost? Are they blessed? How hard are clues to collect? How powerful are the NPC bounty hunters? What does Yew Jail look like?

    But this only solves one problem. The picture is much larger than that when speaking about Classic UO.

    There's no PvE endgame in classic UO. People are going to (and even back then, did) get bored and quit. Classic UO has, and has shown to, become little more than this pretty quickly:

    Macro -> PvP (/PK/Grief) -> Tower -> Quit.

    Now, of course this doesn't happen with some users. Some are totally content to play with what they have for years on end and never get bored.

    That's fine, but 80% of your users will fall somewhere near this equation and WILL get bored of the same old after a very short period of time.

    To begin, we need elder games. Both PvE, and PvP.


    PvE endgame in UO circa 1999 consisted of EVing Lich Lords over and over, and nothing else. Doesn't cut it in 2010, sorry.

    PvP endgame in UO circa 1999 consisted of a signup sheet and separate flagging system of orange (enemies) and green (friends), and nothing else. Doesn't cut it in 2010.

    Introduce a PVE endgame of random overworld encounters, popup dungeons customized by player skill level, world bosses, achievement unlockable 5th levels to dungeons and even raids.

    The problem?


    Nobody wants to have to spend 2 years raiding (or buying suits) to complete. The solution is to introduce PvE sets that have bonuses applied only to certain monsters and dungeon. Four levels of Hythloth Gold Plate - deadly to daemons and gargoyles, unconcerned with players. Not hued in any neon colour, but instead... let's take the hues from the oldschool platemail purchasable from vendors in 1997. Those oldschool, awesome metallic hues. Gold, Grey, Bronze, Rose, Blue-Black... and so on. In a classic world where these don't exist (or exist only rarely, dating back to 1997), these become prestige items based on appearance alone.

    You no longer need crazy suits to compete in PvP, because PvE items have no bearing on player versus player combat. However, by its very nature, PvE requires rewards... otherwise, how many people would defeat difficult raids 'just for fun'? Not that many. Problem solved.

    What about a PvP endgame?

    Expand on O/C. Provide a fun, meaningful, factions-esque system of world domination. Introduce politics, Kings, Senates, taxes, elections that inspire a massive campaigning metagame with huge debates and, most important, PASSION on the forums and otherwise in and outside the game. Allow Kings ultimate control over their city. Everything from taxes to guard zones to rentable in-town taverns... put the control of the world in the hands of the players. That's what UO is about - and if they want it to be a certain way so badly, they have every opportunity to leave a meaningful mark on the entire game. Liven up these cities, inject real reasons for players to use them. Taxable marketplaces and campaigns, whatever.

    Create a world at war, with all cities and towns under and Order or Chaos banner, with both sides fighting over the treasuries of the towns, and the power that holding that town means for their faction. Waxing and waning power based on what areas of the world you control, and what cities you hold.

    Give the PvPers no items, but instead buffs based on area control as well as titles, points, and so on.

    It's not classic UO exactly, but it's Classic UO+++.

    Introduce a new evolution of the reputation that truly quantifies the impact of a player on the world. Feed a rabbit? +Compassion. Kill a PK? +Justice. Kill a player under 60 max skills? -Justice, -Compassion, -Honor.

    It's also a great chance to implement multiple choice, classic Ultima-style quests. Track what happens during a quest. Sure, giving a beggar coins is +Compassion. But that beggar asks you to save his mangy little mutt of a friend from the rats that have cornered him in the sewer. How do you approach this?

    Save the dog?
    Save the dog, kill all of the rats?
    Kill them with FIRE?
    Kill them with POISON?
    Tame the rats, save the dog?
    Tame and feed the rats?
    Do you feed the dog?
    Reject payment from the beggar?
    Demand double payment?
    Steal from him?
    Lead him out of town and kill him?

    Because MMORPGs can't stagnate. They must advance and move forward. All of these Classic UO Hardcores you see on the forums today? They wouldn't exist had the rulesets never deprived them of what they were enjoying. Had it always been like that for the last ten years, 99% of them would have moved on by now.

    The point is that oldschool UO is fantastic, but it also isn't going to work long term in 2010/2011. It's not sustainable, and that's completely aside from the malicious and relentless griefing and PKing you're going to see.

    So evolution is necessary, but I think all of these folk would come to realize that careful, directed evolution within the virtues of oldschool UO would give them new and better experiences, and more breadth to their world based on what they already loved about it.

    Perhaps the concept is to simply evolve in the opposite direction that UO did, and see how that works... good or bad, but placing the choice in the hands of the community. Since community is what UO is all about. Let them shape their own world.
  2. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Nice one.
    I wonder when we will see those ideas implemented :)
  3. BigEv

    BigEv Lore Master
    Stratics Veteran

    Apr 29, 2009
    Likes Received:
    could someone pass along the cliff notes ;)
  4. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The Skrag administration of UO:

    * Invent character transfers earlier than they were invented in reality
    * Trammelize all existing shards, period
    * Allow people to transfer to a smaller number of newly-opened PVP shards if they don't like it

    The net result is things are much as they are today, except Felucca isn't empty because "Felucca" is now a handful of thriving PVP shards packed full of people condensed from all the others.

    All this social engineering crap in the OP is just garbage. Us carebears just want to kill monsters and craft and have RP events and stuff. Not participate in some grand war against reds. We just don't care about this kind of thing.

    All this bla bla dynamic player justice bla bla crap? That isn't something we wished we could do but couldn't. It was just... a bug, as far as we were concerned. We didn't want to defeat the PKs, we just wanted to forget they existed and not have to deal with them.
  5. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Ahh, you said it nicely, but I don't agree with you. I don't knows who's right though, it's so hard to read players minds.

    I think we need a poll on this to see. Going to do it right now.
  6. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    Az, I appreciate the time you put into that. But I have some issues with it.

    Mainly and first, what would these Paladins do, walk through a dungeon unmolested by MOBs while PKers are, and have it that easy?

    I think these things (Justice Systems) need to be very straight forwards and direct. Get caught and you get punished. No outs. No leeway.

    Then you do have to have plenty of "sanctioned" outlets for PvP.

    You brought up a real problem for a game like UO, "end game". Waht do you do when a player starts to stagnate because they've done it all?
    My own opinion is that you make the game so as to have decay to what the player builds up, to a point. But only on what I'll call "Advanced" gains. This would be on things like a players house, for example, but very slowly on the base house, faster on things like decorations (and in various rates). So a player has to Maintain his/her "end game", in a fashion. Add in a worldly game with lots of player interaction, and I think players won't really feel "end game syndrome".
  7. No AoS? No Trammel? No pompous carebears complaining about people playing the game the way it was actually designed??

    Sounds awesome!
  8. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    I think that in order to have a full PvP system you need somethin like :
    - reds can be looted (maybe proportionately to their murder count), blues can't
    - the choice to have your corpse inventory back on resurrection if you accept a temporary stat loss
    - incentive to guild wars : stat/skill bonus for the guild controlling a city (with the appropriate system to take it), tax on NPC going to that guild's coffer, etc.
    - a better way to work out murder counts (hard/costy quest for example)
    - restrictions on mark/recall to make death more significant than losing two minutes, and to make the world less like a waiting room with a door leading directly to a farm area

    That way PvPers attack themselves in priority (with the war system), but if there's a problem with someone outside the PvP competition, it can be dealt with.
  9. copycon

    copycon Guest

    I wish I could "like" this post.

    So there it is.
  10. copycon

    copycon Guest

    This makes no sense. Sorry to point out the obvious, but PKing must be lucrative just like every other activity.

    This further itemizes UO. UO should not be based on how "uber" your items are. It should be based on how adept you are at playing the game and overcoming obstacles and conflict. Chasing the "best" items only maintains a level of interest for so long, and then it becomes monotonous while constant variety provided in the form of positive or negative player interaction maintains interest much longer.

    For people who wish to engage in "wars" this should be encouraged. However, funneling PvP into a single form of interaction such as controlling a city should not be the end goal because players will lose interest quickly as is exactly what happened with factions.

    This is not necessary. Murderers should remain as murderers because that is their motivation. Non-murderers likewise.

    I don't understand what mark/recall has to do with death and the "waiting room" or farming effect, but yes there needs to be additional end game content which is probably something that can be said for every game.
  11. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Mar 3, 2004
    Likes Received:
    UO is an old game and have gone thru so many changes, and is now a different game.

    Classic UO I played has completely different game environment believe or not.
    RP was a good thing, and farming was never THAT important.
    I have to disagree with the "massive PK griefing problem in 1999" comment tho. Given that I was never on the PK side I enjoyed the uncertainty. When I am loaded with valuables in my backpack, should I play it safe and do a trip to bank/house and drop them off or stay and do a little more while being real cautious that the "grifers" might come in and take the good from me.

    And also a lot of newb players cannot distinguish PK and Grifers. UO was designed with PK in mind, and playing a murder WAS a valid career. By far the most challenging profession to date. Also it is the ONLY profession when you are out-played you take a hefty penalty (ie statloss 100+ hours rebuilding your character). The risk vs reward is very high for the murder profession and the penalty is huge thur only a handful of players (usually on really good connection (ie ISDN 128k) compare to common players during the time on 28.8k and 56.6k dialup). Back in the games there wasnt even script programs, your char is only as good as the time you spent in it and player skill.

    Newb players tend to think if another player is trying to stop them doing whatever they want, they are "griefing". Sneak a spawn in fel, get raided by "grifers". Wants to get the double resource and gets PKed by the "grifers". Nothing in fel is "grief", because grief only exist on tram because there's simply nothing you can do about it. In fel you can at very least "outplay him with your skill/character and stop him". Grifers on tram can even use something like a new character with no skill over 30 to actually "grief" you and since both YOU and the GRIFERS are in godmode to each other, it's GG, more power to the grifers.

    Fact is imo grifers only exist on Tram, because they are running around in godmode, and is immune to player justice (just go QQ to your GM Mommy, as that's your only way to stop the real grifers). Well even if you manage to kill them there's zero penalty cept for some insurance gold. UO has turned into a no risk game, all you are gonna lose (especially in tram) is your time. A real penalty imo would be along line 100k to 500k gold per death.

    I agree with a lot of things you said but according to your "1999 when PK and grifers was a major problem" ironically had 562342139587 times better PLAYERS COMMUNITY, and much more meaningful to interact with other players back in that time.
  12. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Great idea for a thread. I'll be back later to comment and expand!

    It's pure fantasy I know, but as I was saying to a friend/ex-UO guildmate this morning, just talking about UO at it's prime and the fun we had is more fun than all current games..
  13. Slayerik

    Slayerik Guest

    Your vision for UO is exceptional, Az.
  14. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Mar 3, 2004
    Likes Received:
    Nice read from the poster couple posts above.


    Again, players villians were designed to exist in UO, and btw there was a LOT more anti-PK guilds as I was in one. We try and hunt PKs down and we dismember them and cut off the dirty heads. The good guys always outnumbered the PKs due to the penalty accessed on the PKs when they do FAIL doing their PORTION of the game.

    People used to run to bank and yell "XXX YYY and ZZZ is out side of the city!!! lets go get them!!!" The in-depth world of UO is destroyed pretty much. If you are hooked on to farming and grinding and wearing over-sized blink blink necklace, there are way more better choices out there on the market.

    PK and grifers are different. UO had never EVER had grifers until the introduction on Trammel, unfortunately.
  15. Ganondorf00

    Ganondorf00 Guest

    I'm not sure this needs to be said, but if the devs expect a plain classic shard to be extremely successfull, they're wrong. So i obviously agree that should they go ahead with it, it will need further investment once it has been shown that there is real interest in it, or the old time players will leave after 2 months and no real new players will join. It will need a real sandbox system, a more complex pk/anti-pk system, a better pve and a more balanced pvp. After the bugfixes and anti-cheat measures, it will need new features of course. I thought it's stating the obvious but better be sure and say it clearly.
  16. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Maybe this isn't the right thread for it, but WarUltima's post prompted something that often irritates me. People that are anti-classic shard, and started after UOR seem to have this idea that the only people that preferred pre-tram UO were the PKs, etc.

    I was a PvM warrior/swords type char, that went on occaisional 'PK Hunts' with my guild(s) before UOR. That was the extent of my PvP knowledge/experience.

    I didn't get involved in proper PvP or start PKing until post UOR. I died countless times to PKs pre-trammel. I suffered numerous financial setbacks because of PKs. I was still a 'victim' until not long before UOR released I'm still VERY pro-classic shard.

    I enjoyed:
    Player Justice
    A sense of being part of a 'world'

    If anyone thinks any of those things improved after UO:R then I'd love to hear your explanation why.

    He's also correct that there were far more 'Anti PKs' than 'PKs'. They/we just tended to be less skilled in both player ability and character development than the bad guys.
  17. Ganondorf00

    Ganondorf00 Guest

    Yeah i personally know many players who are mostly pvers who recognize the increased fun from a open pvp world, where player interaction is increased. It's not just a danger factor when leaving the guarded areas, the whole market is different and more active if players can lose their items more easily. UO:R was made because of players complaining so much about being pked, and putting that as a reason of their account cancellation. Then when it went live, even more players canceled their accounts putting the exact opposite as a reason :D Rather ironic.

    There is of course more than that, i still remember when i was a noob back in 98 and killed a pk for the first time, it requires some courage and even group coordination, and it worked extremely well. Players would actually get rewarded for playing well and punished for doing stupid things.
  18. Zyon Rockler

    Zyon Rockler Guest

    I like the concept and I love seeing posts like this but I think there's to much focus on things like Trammel being the cause when there are clearly many other issues that no one seems to address.

    Systems that over ride other systems, the justice system, the guild system, faction system, this is just my opinion. I could be so very wrong but I think when you join a guild you should still be part of a main justice system.

    The problem is , the ruleset changes to benefit the bad guy only. It's almost like saying, now that you're in a guild there is no longer any rules.

    Guild PKs will never turn red.

    Guild Thief, nothing you can do to stop them.

    Except for break the rules yourself by killing, stealing from them back or removing them.

    Factions, good, neutral, evil. What we have is all in the same faction, why?

    The murderer and thief should be in the bad faction only. They can steal the Sig.

    Good faction and neutral would have other ways to recapture the town. Neutral might have the justice system set to probabilities, whereas, evil would have no justice system attatched, similar to the way guilds are now.

    There is no logic, to me, that i'm in a pure, good faction and at its' pinacle of power we have to stop because we have to steal something. I would love to read the lore on this stuff. Maybe a red and a blue get married and have orange kids.

    So, the point is, the justice system, again is removed so it only benefits the bad guy. So, what does this do? It isolates the player because you cannot be in a guild or in factions for the justice system to work.

    Last of all, because of all of this we don't really have a justice system. It's more like homeland security. To prepare for an attack make sure you have duct tape and plastic.

    I'm trying to make a point instead of the red being a hero, he should be the one isolated. I say make a new justice system and make it work above all other systems, then look at ways to build back the evil power slowly, such as benefits to being a thief, like the NPC guild type. We never really saw where all thieves and murderers have this, "whatever this is."
  19. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I thought I was the only f13'er depraved enough to post on Stratics. It's a regular reunion around here. Az if you want to fish for input for the freeshard you're developing then that's great, but don't pretend like the actual EA game wouldn't have been quickly murdered by it's competition with you in charge.

    You're going to get the same group of the same old people every freeshard gets, and 99% of them would disappear if your pirated product cost even a nickel.
  20. So0nice

    So0nice Guest

    I have but ONE question for you Az...

    Why weren't you working with Garriott, Rick Delashmit, Starr Long and, Raph Koster when we needed you? :yell:
  21. I couldn't disagree more. I think some of the changes he has listed would have gone a long, long way in keeping both vets and carebears...instead of splitting the community and causing PvPers to just quit like Trammel did.

    I think what you actually meant to say was that *you* would have quickly quit the game had he been in charge (or if these changes had been made). There would have been plenty of business from people that actually wanted to play the game as it was designed.
  22. So why did you sign up for a game with open PvP?
  23. PvP is best when it's optional. WoW and other games that have succeeded with PvP is because it allows a player the choice to do what he or she wants in a MMORPG. If you want full PvP there are servers for that. Want more of PvE game, there are servers for that. Getting griefed on by some bored teen venting his frustratings or mischief on others in a video game is not my kind of fun.

    Aion is another game which is similar to the early days of UO. Where players are basically thrusted into a chaotic world with free pvp. The lore of it sounds so good. You feel like you want to fight the enemy for your side. The free for all PvP, where major battles can occur also sounds promising. Yet all that sounded better on paper. But guess who messed that up...Yep the player base. High end players slaughtering lowbies and new players in the newbie zones. Ambush style attacks from high end players or gangs while you are PvEing trying to level up. Of course you have the cheaters, using hacks to gain even more benefits over you. Aion started with a ton of servers at start, even had to add more later on. 1 year later, after all the complaints about griefing tactics from lowbie and new players, a mass server merger happened to maybe 1/4 of what it was. Mass cancelled accounts, even though there was a big cry for at least 1 PvE server.

    If it wasn't for UO:R, I would never have come back and I would bet that UO would not have lasted this long. I mean how long does it take for a UO of old with PvP/Pking as it's main focus last? Even the hardened die hard will bore of doing the samething everyday. But give players choice to do other things then you have increased the enjoyment level for years to come.
  24. Coppelia

    Coppelia Guest

    Nice attempt to separate the points, but they are together for a reason.
    And PK to get stuff from players isn't a valid gameplay. It's pure crap and it's what brought Renaissance. The current PvP system is completely idiot. If Felucca was a deathmatch area were you could attack anyone anywhere, it would even be better. Currently reds are a necessity because guilds don't war each others. So when you want to crasha spawn, you have to go red. It'll be always the same guilds but no, people don't war themselves.

    Some day, you'll have to ask yourself why some MMORPG are successfully using a full PvP system and why it's not working in UO. And if you think it does work, then you're blinding yourself. In your opinion, why the players who are asking for a classic shard or saying that UO was good at the beginning without Trammel almost always go on their nostalgia trip by telling you how it was fun to PK newbies and loot their stuff, their homes, etc. I've heard that here and in other games. Sure, when you're on the one getting all the stuff by playing your favorite playstyle, it's fun. But if you like to kill mobs and end up everyday being PKed because "it's an approved way to get stuff", or robbed by naked thieves who don't risk anything... it's quickly not fun. And if you remove PvMers, you end up with only PKs and thieves, and that doesn't go anywhere.

    There are games that will never need a Trammel. In UO it was the last hope to save subs from the fire. It wasn't the only solution, but at that time it was the most obvious, easiest maybe. That's what they did.
  25. I would agree with you, if you had said "if something hadn't been done to address PKing"...but I do not believe for one second that Trammel was the only option.
  26. What I find so funny is that these few ex-players coming here lamenting about a classic shard. Yet they are probably already playing that same ruleset on some freeshard. I guess those hosters can't really revive that same old "feeling" of UO. So they come here to vent for a classic shard from EA. Well guess what, I have a feeling that even UO devs can't recreate that "dream" of UO of old for you. These people will never ever get that feeling with an offical classic shard either. I mean who in thier right mind would pay for out of dated ruleset with no new landmasses, no improvements, no updates? I think some people are just out of touch.
  27. I agree with you, Trammel was not the only reason for UO's extreme long life span. But it's a major reason. Not the land itself but the ruleset of choice where someone doesn't have too be thrusted into a land where he has to watch over his back while crafting, mining, fishing, etc. If someone wants to experience that sense of risk and adventure well, there is Felucca for that. Choice was a huge reason why UO is still going strong.

    Note, I honestly don't mind a classic shard for you. I just wonder if you get what you want yet, you will bore of it fast as it will never grow. So it will be another siege type shard with a extremely low population. Would that be what you want? You are not really going to get a mass amount new players willing to start from nothing on a 13 year old game. My personal opinion is it will be wasted resources and time. I have seen these "classic" shard threads for years and years now. What going on 10 years now and all new expansions, updates, having trammel ruleset as its core not a clue enough that even the thought of a classic shard not even on the back burner?
  28. I'd gladly pay double for a shard without all that...primarily because it would mean I would not have to play with people like you.
  29. You think UO is "still going strong"? Really?
  30. /flawed precept

    If you are NOT going to "exercise in catapulting facts away when they're inconvenient"

    then >the rule is BROKEN< right here (first among others)
    Player Justice has been attempted again and again, never working.. always failing.
    click clic whoosh !!!

    You just broght in a singular fact: Player justice has not worked
    You say (you "see it as") a "Lack of" not rewarding the good guy ...

    The "reward" that was lacking ... was that "the goodguys" couldn't "gain and control" ground
    IE a "safe space" ... an "end to/of the criminals"

    You gotta admit (should be able to) ... ^^that is a Pretty Good Reward for the good guys to strive for
    and "with tram" essentially "won it" ... locked doors and secure chests, insurance to minimize PvE gear loss etc.

    BUT: there is still "Player griefing" in tram ... Yes?
    "with tram" essentially "won it" ... essentially ain't ... complete enough
    got the gain, but haven't established "control".

    So ...add in yet another layer? say the ability to "banish" a character/account TO fel?
    Looks promising ... but no ... there's the rub

    The banished players don't want to Stay there (in fel)
    They want to "win" by forcing the "good players" to have to play with them
    Die to them, be looted by them ... u know ... "win with the BETTER playstyle"

    The interactions are quite well examined here: the DAEDALUS PROJECT: MMORPG Research, Cyberculture, MMORPG Psychology and here: Raph’s Website
    and FURTHER played out HERE

    *grin* ... By the way or By The By

    > I Win !!!! < :danceb:
  31. Congratulations! You won! What did you win: Easy Mode, Itemization, Massive Inflation, Decline of Population, Shoe String Budget, No More Expansions...and eventually, No More UO.

    Again, Congrats! What a prize you have for yourself there.
  32. Babble

    Babble Guest

    I still think UO is a dinosaur from a design standpoint.
    UO was designed with stories in mind. Not with 1000 quests and items and zones to explore, but a land where things happen and change.

    If you want static go play a trailer park game where every zone is and stays the same (though even wow is changing that these days).

    Sadest day for UO was when the developers decided to go from GM or event developer driven design to programmed design, because neither the programers were good enough nor the game designed for it.

    I agree that big games need to be program driven, but niche games like uo could do a lot better with some personal touch. The ems do their best..but it is still a shadow of what once was
  33. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Hey Morgana, remember when Trammel came out and everyone was bored and they all fled to a new generation of exciting PVP games featuring complex systems of player justice and consequences?

    Oh yeah, that never happened. Funny how your opinion of what everyone totally wanted wasn't actually shared by anyone making games. Well, anyone making successful games.

    Face it, you're a dinosaur even among UO players. An evolutionary dead end. Your tastes are so weird and obscure that almost no one will actually make a game for you, the few that try rarely ever end up making any money, and instead you end up playing pirate shards and haunting these boards, begging EA to make one special freak server for you to play on.

    Because it was the only MMORPG on the market. Then others came out, and we started leaving. EA didn't like that.
  34. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:

    No pompous carebears complaining about people

  35. WarUltima

    WarUltima Babbling Loonie
    Stratics Veteran

    Mar 3, 2004
    Likes Received:
    UO went with Trammel split if I recall correctly was because the introduction of EverQuest.

    EQ barely qualify as a PvP game, however they offered today's famous theme park questing play. They also do allow PvP in a small selected areas in the game.

    People were intrigued mainly by its true 3D world, and on top of that players who prefers never having to compete against another human being directly and/or prefer to be able to turn on "godmode" whenever they want, and only have to focus on AI which is 100000 times easier to defeat. And the removal of "losing stuff"... all these led to split world and insurance. More and more blessed items and funky color/race/item/skill of the UO we have today.

    Slowly MMORPG turned into "PvP oriented where Player skill matters the least", see google "Achievement Systems" that's oh-so popular today and used in almost all MMORPG and XBox live/PS Network and now being implemented to Wii. UO used partial achievement system as well, for example unique titles for completing certain certain stuff (eg Slime Hunter), or you know completing the same quests 100 times, 500 times, 1000 times and 10000 times (see World of Warcraft). This is an indirect way for players to "feel cool, for beating other players". People in my entire work place plays WoW (and they compare each others achievement points, and sometimes how many unique pets they have obtained). The biggest WoW player at work showed me his Loremaster achievement which indicate him for successfully completing 2705 different quests for his faction. And the seeker for completing 3000 quests. And the reward of doing all these? A suffix title and a tabard (no mods whatsoever) with a exclamation mark on it. And he was telling me he's ranked on top 3% of all players, yes means he has BEATEN 97% of the players in that game without even attack one single live players character. Top rated "PvPer" indeed.

    Personally I think the whole achievement thing is stupid, but people do LOVE it. It gives them a reason to do all the repetitive things OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! Woohoo!!! The Loremaster title took him little over 9 months at an average of 5 hours a day. Yes there are some achievement for PvPing, but compare to grinding achievement is around 5% to 95% ratio. And WoW PvP is like constant slow-mo for me since I am used to UO PvP.

    I like classic UO and new UO. But the community is next non-existant rightnow, with few EMs and players working very hard to give the game a "reason" to be played not just farming artys and make 3245230984 billion gold and finally sell em to brokers. There's no reason for players to work together and defeat the bad guys since they can turn on player godmode (walk thru the blue moongate).

    Anyways, I adapted and I will live with the current UO. And I really dont mind with a classic shard option as IMO many new players have missed out on the real UO. If I am to play trammel full time, I would have switched to WoW/EQ years ago. I have yet to own 1 single house in UO on any trammel rulset facets (Malas/Termur). Dont get me wrong, I do play on tram... not only because 99% of the new ingame content is ONLY availiable there (well its true for the most part) but if I do not go to tram, I cant even sell anything so I can have gold to spend... and farming for gold pieces is NOT my playstyle. There are plenty of players who REFUSE to even go to fel to shop from my vendor and many of them dont even think its safe to buy off player vendors standing in guardzone right on top of the moongate (this means they are not completely godmode).

    Oh well, enough for the renting. Happy holidays, and please enjoy UO if UO is your game of choice, pvp or not. :blushing:
  36. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    It's not just about that though is it. FYI there's games to cater for that now. Darkfall being the most relevant example.

    UO was much more than 'an exciting PvP game with player justice'. I don't think you understand really because you evidently don't feel the same.

    I loved the 'feel' of UO, I love the world, the sense of community no other game has ever matched. Even just the isometric viewpoint and the graphics.

    I grew to love the PvP as well, but that's not what made me fall in love with the game in the first place.

    Those things were all gradually eroded and removed from the original game by various expansions.

    It's not just nostalgia, and the fact that the game felt that way because it was the first one of it's kind. You can still recapture much of it now by playing 'unauthorised' shards.

    Anyone that left UO on a longterm basis for Everquest, or World of Warcraft, or whatever really didn't play UO for anything like the same reasons as me. Those games hold zero appeal in my mind. They're just a neverending achievement cycle to keep you locked in. UO was something much more, and probably still is even in it's current terrible state.
  37. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    Another great post from WarUltima. If only I was able to articulate my thoughts so well.
  38. Thanks for further making my point.

    What I "win" is not joining in your loss.

    Your OP in YOUR thread ... was basically a declaration of: Arrgh I didn't win! and because I didn't win .... everyone join me in Punishing EA ... by dropping your accounts ... that's the only way to convince them they're wrong in not doing classic ... :scholar:re-read it ...

    "I won" in that your little recruiting drive ... didn't actually "win" alot/enough converts (EA hasn't announced: shutting down UO, due to a flood of canceled accounts)
    "I won" by betting on my past experience with these types of threads ... again, basically by >understanding< that as PERFECT a world you can imagine and describe ...
    The on the ground REALITIES of implementation will scarcely ever ever ever "satisfy" ...

    The feller's don't want to stay in fel ... nor do they want to banish >anyone< to tram ...
    they want to "banish tram" ... because tram is not a "valid playstyle" ... in their viewpoint
    Fair enough ... as long as you remain in the imaginary mode ...

    Logging on presents a different scenario ... same as it ever has.

    Nope! I did not "win" your little list (Easy Mode, Itemization, Massive Inflation, Decline of Population, Shoe String Budget, No More Expansions) ...
    I acknowledged that which is ... and (wait for it)

    Learned and adapted For today's "plan" ...

    aka "reality" ... that which is real and present.
    And if there is a "problem", that I think I have a solution for
    Bug report/suggestion/forum mention ... maybe a little debate to "flesh it out"
    make my "point" and then move on.

    Here ... I'll make it REALLY basic

    I get to keep playing MY time waster
    You haven't gotten yours "back" ...

    What is the score?

  39. Skrag

    Skrag Visitor

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    But if UO never nerfed PK it's population and budget would have never declined ever ever, right? ROFL

    If your ideas are so great and popular and everyone would love them, go play one of the many games based on them. Oh wait, there are almost none.

    Go sit in Darkfall. There's a game with no population.
  40. Clx-

    Clx- Guest

    har, log into Darkfall and you'll see much more of a 'population' than on any of Ultima Online's ghost servers in the year 2010!

    Edit: Why do you want to see UO continue along it's current trajectory anyway? What does it actually do well these days? Player housing is the last thing I'll assume hasn't been bettered elsewhere. Beyond that current UO is just a poor imitation of Everquest, WoW, etc.

    The fact that old UO was unique is something to be celebrated, not mocked.
  41. Babble

    Babble Guest

    Ok why is this a pk/pvp argument?

    Where are the days where you put on some gear and go out monsterhunting without getting blasted by 125 damage because you forgot to wear the special armor.

    Where are all the rp towns and guilds? Fled because of the pvp or neglect of EA?
  42. Different strokes for different folks...but keep in mind, there are quite a few Classic UO fans out there that would be perfectly happy to pay EA to play a Classic Shard, and by not making one, the money goes elsewhere. To other games, to other interests, but in the end...it does *not* go back into the funds that keep UO running. So while I might be a "freak" or "weird", you'll be joining all of us weird freaks on "pirate shards" after EA shuts their shards down...or you'll be forced to move on to something else...just like we have been. So before you get your little 'tude on over there, you might want to take a look down the road just a bit.
  43. Well...actually, I get to keep my time waster as well...but I don't have to fund EA/Mythic to do it.

    So what *is* the score anyway? What will it be when the only option to play UO is to do it on private shards because UO loses so many subscriptions that it is no longer worth it to keep it running?

  44. Dermott of LS

    Dermott of LS UOEC Modder
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:

    Where are all the rp towns and guilds? Fled because of the pvp or neglect of EA?

    It's a lot more involved than "either PvP or EA neglect".

    First of all, there's a BIG argument in my mind that states that while adding in Trammel was the right thing to do, the implementation was done BACKWARDS. Because the Non-PvP player base was forced to move, MANY established RP communities were broken apart and abandoned as it is MUCH harder to rebuild what was built up in Fel on Tram.

    Secondly, there's the simple issue of time. Over the course of 13+ years, people have come and gone, interest waxes and wanes, and groups come and go naturally.
  45. Never said that. While you are rolling around down there in a pool of your own drool, you might want to see if you can keep up with the conversation.

    You confuse me with one of the "everything was just fine in old UO" people. I am not one of those people. I have said many times that something had to be done about PKs...just not Trammel. There were other options that could have worked. It's not one or the other. There was middle ground.

    But see, that's the real issue with Anti-Classic shard fans. As Fayled Dhreams makes evident with his posts, it has never been about what is actually best for the game with anti-classic people, it's always about Fel players vs. Tram players. Us vs. Them. But what you don't seem to get is that everyone, Fel players, Tram players, whatever all paid into the same pot. When you alienate a portion of those players, the pot gets less and less full. But that's not important, right? What *is* important is making sure that anyone that might have PK'ed you back when you first started out get what's coming to them...even now, 10 years later. You'd rather see the game shut down than to admit that those people were valid customers, just like you. Well, that's where your headed...so enjoy!
  46. Trebr Drab

    Trebr Drab Guest

    This is the part that sticks in my mind as wrong, Az.

    Player justice has never been tried without allowing loopholes and outs for the PKers. Bugs or mistakes or whatever, it's never been tried.

    On the other hand, "rewarding the good guys" has been tried. UO once had a Bounty System. It was abused by the PKers. Any system that tries this will have the same results.

    In your idea here, I can guarrantee that it will end up with PK guilds that have their own Paladins, to fight and grief other PK guilds, to mislead other players:
    PK Guild Paladins: "Yeah, it's safe in there, we kilt the big bad peekayers, go on in."
    PK Guild Paladins: "Hey, fellow Paladin that's not in my guild, lets go take care of that Peekayer, there's only one of them, really!"

    A Justice System must be straightforwards, simple, and no loopholes. It has to be punishment for the PKers (and other "criminals"), and it has to be applied at death, not at resurrection. It's got to hurt, or it won't work.
  47. Heh! you assume MUCH there morgana ...
    and while well writ, it is at its core FALSE.

    I am not "against" a classic shard
    I am against going against and calling EA "liars"
    about stuffs they HAVE reasonably explained and laid out

    Server code for one ...
    They said it was lost and unrecoverable
    "Impossible" says I ...
    No, a hard drive crashed, a defrag was typed format, a compile was interrupted and dumped
    RG & friends (~~80+) threw the design docs on a bonfire, spaghetti code self corrupted ...
    oh! :blushing: I see ... so can we go forward from here?
    Yep! ... we just can't recreate "the original"
    okay ...

    See? ^there's the difference^ twixt you and I
    >I< can take NO for an answer (when reasonably explained and laid out)

    You ... even AFTER having been given countless reasonable explanations, and logical breakouts of thus and so ...
    Persist just to persist ... or persist on the mere hope that NAGGING and continuously spinning truth to fiction and fact from opinion

    is how to get what you want ...

    which, AGAIN, you claim you have a right and duty to do ...
    as "The Voice"(choir music) of the down trodden classic masses
    (to the tune of You and me against the world?) ...


    A) I hold that: you can only speak for yourself. As each of your "agree'rs" can ALSO only do ... one by one doesn't make a choir ...
    well, sorta ... they do! ... the proper word is cacophony.(cacaphony? *shrugs*)

    B) >I< only ever speak for myself. and have a penchant for actually having a truthful basis that I can link to.
    Raph, Daedalus, m-w.com to name a recent few.

    I >ONLY< hold a small fractional "hope" ...
    That Cals "video explanation" will put the past to rest ...
    pfffft! not likely ...
    As producer ... the fault of its "resurrection" ... lay with him ...


    PS. the name of the file that the Freesharders used as a >template< (/not/ reversed engineered) was: Uodemo.dat
    and it was released on the T2A disc ... so that a standalone(occolo only) "Ultima OFFLINE" could be played.
    (and as a sub postscript, I AM quite impressed, with someones ability to edit most every reference to their "efforts" ... as being letter perfect copies of the same phrase... beginning, pretty much without variation: Fans of Ultima Online have reverse engineered the game ...)
    *shrugs* penchant, precision, template ... :scholar: G'Day! :danceb:
  48. Lady Storm

    Lady Storm Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Feb 20, 2006
    Likes Received:
    First off its a nice dream to think of what might have been...

    I for one would have loved to put my size 6 foot up Sun's not so bright tush and make him listen for once to the people and nto sit there and play GOD.

    The T for teens bit hit hard into UO. Admit it this game was set for adult thinking.
    That said... we got children playing UO. I have consistantly told players useing profanity to watch their typing... only to be told to @[email protected]! filter it... a 8 year old standing next to me at the bank.

    It's nice to dream what should have happened...

    I lost alot of friends over the years to blunders by the Dev and its Leadership. I play alone most time not cause I want to... I have to. There is no one left I know~!~

    Oh I have friends in game but not ones who play UO as we use to... 1999 is long gone and each Dev has made life in UO harder for the players to stay.

    Cal and his crew have made life come back to some areas in UO. They are not perfect.. who is. But it is a move in the right direction.

    I want my friends back..... (And how the hell do I unravel the accounts they gave me from mine!! IF they do???) (ahh a few reds are not red anymore and are lords/ladys ......)

    OK who has the Time Machine keys??
  49. AtlanticVlad

    Stratics Veteran

    May 14, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The original post rocks here. I really do wish that would have been what happened. I would love to see it happen now.

    My thoughts on old UO are this. PK's were just that player killers the reason didn't matter UO had a justice system it was removed as far as I remember because cutting up body's wasn't ok. But I'm sure abuse of the system didn't help.

    Most of the PK's I knew back in the day wouldn't have turned in their own head if they had the option they wanted people to be after them.

    And having been on the victim side of PKing most of the time I gotta say, sure it sucked, but honestly it made my accomplishments that much sweeter when I didn't get killed.

    I also saw someone mention ganging up on reds and such at the banks. This is what uo has lost. Not specifically ganging up on reds at banks. But social interactions making new friends learning to trust people. Asking other people if new people could be trusted. An amazing social network that we had long before its time.

    People In UO today are rude and don't remember how to type. Mostly because they don't need to. UO was the first MMO and it defined what MMOs should have been... It's lost that charm I log on now a days and the only place I can find groups of people is Luna, and they are all afk and if they aren't they are to rude to bother responding. We no longer have any help for new players which makes it horrible for that perspective. I know we are unlikely to get them back but the thing I think that would help us the most to restore our community is our councilors.

    I know they can't bring back the councilor program as it was. But I don't think its impossible really all they need to do is offer any one I would say with an account a year or older the option of making a councilor as a character slot. And just make it so only say 5% of the currently logged on players could be on those types of characters per shard. And if your councilor was idol for so long well it should auto log any way. Really make them always visible and set the system up to police its self. If someone reported a councilor for something 3 - 5 random councilors would be brought to the location to decide if he needs to lose his privileges of being a councilor for a while.

    I'm sure there will be some folks that will say no one would participated but I know plenty of folks who would, and I would for sure. I love talking to people and helping them. This would also be a great way to put together a new knowledge base for uo.com or something.

    Oh and a side note Skrag doesn't like this idea because he was never very nice to any one and there for never really understood the community thing. =) I still love you in a strictly heterosexual sort of way Skrag =)
  50. Babble

    Babble Guest

    From my view from europa, the trammel fel split was not that harsh. It seperated though the players who accepted pvp and who didn't. What really brought it down was ea abandoning seers/counselors/and ea's decision then that ems or such things were unneeded and contact to the playerbase should be automated.

    Players come and go that is true, EA must still have done something terribly wrong when people left the game to go for roleplay to wow...
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