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Jeremy, I have two questions for five on Friday please.

Discussion in 'UHall' started by MoonglowMerchant, Aug 5, 2008.

  1. 1. Are there any immediate plans to cap breath damage from Greater Dragons in PvP?

    2. Are there any immediate plans to balance hide/stealth/detect on Siege?

  2. Jeremy

    Jeremy Guest

    If by "immediate" you mean "in the next patch," then no, not that I'm aware of. Our plate's pretty full for 55.
  3. What about in the near future?

    Edit: By immediate, I suppose I mean that it is something that is going to be addressed and just has to be fit into the schedule.

    Further Edit: I read in the Town Hall notes that weapon re-balancing is coming and I think that is a great idea. However, no weapon in PvP is currently more unbalanced than the breath weapon of a greater dragon. :)

    With regard to hide/stealth/detect on Siege, I was reading some old notes the other day where Wilki replied to someone about making hide/stealth more viable. I know that the timer on detect hidden was prolonged and I wonder if the chances for detect hidden to work were reduced too. While these changes were likely needed on production shards where passive detect is in effect, the same changes on Siege (where passive detect is NOT in effect) have created a shard where hide/stealth are no longer a choice but a necessity.

    If you run the numbers, you will see that the percentage of players running hide/stealth on Siege is about %50 percent for the shard as a whole. That is about 5 times what it is on a regular shard. So what you might say?

    Well, PvP is a lot more fun when you are fighting people you can actually see. :)

    I was on the field last night in a fight with about 8-10 people. The only one who was constantly visible was a tamer with a greater dragon.


    It isn't necessary to make a huge change. Perhaps just reducing the timer on detect or increasing the chances for it to work would be enough. I have a character with GM detect and I sometimes fail to detect a hider 3 or 4 times in a row when they are standing right in front of me. With seven seconds in between attempts, it isn't terribly practical to think that is a viable solution in game.

    I understand that ROT is important. I also understand that fixing ROT is complicated and could take some time. Adjusting breath damage and tweaking detect could be done while the ROT change is being worked on. Couldn't it?
  4. Jeremy

    Jeremy Guest

    For Siege, ROT is first. Beyond that, we'll probably take the temperature of the community again.

    For the dragons, pet balance in general is definitely on the list.
  5. Zofinur

    Zofinur Guest

    May i kindly ask how u will try to achieve this?
  6. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    Pet balancing is not an issue that needs to be addressed. All you have to do is read the weekly posts on stratics about it, to take the temp. You will see it's the same 4 or 5 peeps who scream GD fire breath is too strong. You will see the dozens of valid, logical , thorough responses on how to counteract it. Please don't open this pandora's box.. on top of the current mess of bannings.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
  7. Too strong in PvM or PvP?

    In PvP it is definitely overpowered. If you can show me any other single spell or attack capable of 90 damage against 70 resist please do.

    I don't believe there is one.
  8. Just because there's a way to counteract something doesn't mean it's still not overpowered.

    70 damage from a single hit from ANYTHING is overpowered in PvP.
  9. drinkbeerallday

    drinkbeerallday Visitor

    Jun 4, 2008
    Likes Received:
    #1 how many highly illegal items constitutes a "multitude"

    #2 when will it be safe to buy and sell items?

    #3 did you ban anyone who did not break the rules?

    #4 is there a reason why EquipLastWeapon does not work with spellbooks?

    #5 will magery changes be considered? ie: arch protect, polymorph etc

    #6 some pvp'ers feel Hit Lower Defense is overpowered. what does the Dev Team think?
  10. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    We can go through it over and over, but its :bdh::bdh::bdh: hee. There's dozens of posts detailing the discussion. If we really really have to rehash the issue, let's meet there.

    Let's throw in some other FoF questions.

    1) When/ how will arcane focus be fixed?
    2) Are there improvements coming to the GM system?
    3) What was Draconi doing in Japan and will we see some changes from his trip?
    4) How many subscribers does EA/Mythic/UO have, and how many have they lost in the past week? Month? Year?
    5) Will there be some means given to players to identify duped items?

    I'm sure we can make lists for days of q's for FoF. I'd love to see it actually be filled this week.

  11. Im all for Pet balancing when it comes to PvP but not if it greatly effects the pets performance in PvM. Guess my main fear is you'll tweak the Greater Dragons to the point that they wont be worth the five slots it takes to control/owe one.
  12. Krystal

    Krystal Sage
    Stratics Veteran TnT/TnA

    May 15, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Pets do really need to be capped. alot people arent playing right now cause of them, it making this game boring:/
  13. Agreed.

    The same thing happens tends to happen anytime they introduce changes without asking for feedback or doing playtesting first.

    If they would stop breaking things, there would be a lot more time to fix the things that already need fixing.

    The thing is, there isn't really an excuse for 90 point breath damage from greater dragons in PvP. They can't trot out the out excuses about lack of resources, or difficulty coding or whatever. They put them in the game. They put them in without notice or playtesting and they are not balanced.

    We really can't afford this pattern of continual mistakes when fixing them takes sooooo
  14. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    test's to see if your ignoring me ...

    what do you meen by pet balance?
    a hyru shouldn't be as strong as a greater dragon... nor should a player be as sttrong as 90% of the pet's.

    hope you meen balance as in all greater dragons have the same stats/skills, none is better than another, and that includes all pet's stat's and skills.

    somewhere i posted something i would like on the five on friday also but i'll be darned if i can ever find my post's.
  15. Faith

    Faith Journeyman
    Stratics Veteran

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    I would like to add a question:

    1. Could you tell us the formula which calculates the damage output for deathstrike, both when staying on the spot and moving out of the 5 tile radius.
  16. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    oh i remember one of them now that i haven't posted yet...

    this hammer bug thing , it had to do with bod's right ?
    well is it safe to fill and turn in bods or not?
  17. ylide

    ylide Guest

    I don't think pets are overpowered in PVP at all. They add some excitement back into PvP. Plus the dragons are so easy to out run if you do die to one you must have a really bad connection. It’s not like the dragon can stealth up to you and do a back-stab/fire breath/bleed attack combo. I mean they are huge and slow!

    To be honest they last time I remember PvP being fairly balanced was pre-AoS, when chars were fairly equal, equipment did not matter much (you could successfully pvp naked) and tactics and good macros made a much bigger difference.

    Jeremy please leave pets how they are! Basically, when people lose they whine and call for a Nerf.
  18. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    Superdragons and their sickass fire breath are not unbalanced. All it means is that, OMG, once in a while a tamer WILL kill you, whether you realized you were about to die or not.

    Mages can do the same thing to you, especially necromages.The only difference here is that some players are high on themselves because they feel ultra-skilled on their mages and necromages. They think that they, as a class, are the only ones who deserve to be able to solidly kill someone now and then because they possess this special quality they call "PVP SKILL". They claim that "tamers" do not have this and therefore the class should not have this ability.

    When's the last time someone thought they had gotten away, only to be leveled by that last, long-delayed explosion spell from that mage? The superdragon's fire breath is a bit like this, except that the tamer can't directly control when that fire breath is going to happen, they have to just keep trying to make things work out.

    If you wish to discuss actual, demonstrable class quirks, we could take note that there are some templates that CAN NOT be killed by archers - - I suspect this to be intentional however, intended as a paper-rock-scissors type of deal in the design.

    At some point in the past I asked the question - were tamers really intended to be a PVP class? The answers to that question are, if the answer is no, then pets' ability to attack other people should be removed entirely. If yes, then the class needs to be competitive at it. It would seem that the UO Dev people chose #2 and some of the people who primarily use other classes are not happy with the result.

    As far as I'm concerned, the mage and necromage peeps who are so in love with their mage dueling skills are welcome to remain that way, but there's no harm in those guys having to watch their asses around a tamer and his superdragon when screwing around in the field in Fel.

    Things would have been overkill with the old petball behavior and ninja tamers in animal form. The old behavior would have allowed a superdragon to repeatedly be insta-teleported onto someone while being chased down at mounted speed. But that's gone now and the pet has to move and attack at it's natural movement speed (which yes sometimes includes an initial warp at the beginning of the attack, a thing I don't find overpowering even when it happens to me).
  19. Snakeman

    Snakeman Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend

    Jun 13, 2002
    Likes Received:
    This must be the Wed joke of the day:lol:. Next they/you will want all weps's to have the same mods, make it so ea character is the same in Str/Dex/Int, no hybrid characters.:talktothehand:.. Come on quit crying already. As the PvP'rs tell us Trammies ALL the time "Deal With it" & we do.
  20. And this is where the logic of the consumate Tamer is fatally flawed.

    Why should a Tamer be more powerful than ANY other class in the game?

    A meleer should be able to tank just as well as any pet. Having a Tamer around shouldn't be a requirement to engage in high end PvM.
  21. Norrar

    Norrar Lore Master
    Governor Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 25, 2008
    Likes Received:
    *thinks back on old days when a group was needed to kill ONE dragon* ahh does anyone else remember those days?....
  22. Limlight

    Limlight Guest

    1. Most pets are fine....Greaters are in need of a PvP nerf....

    Whoever it was that said "only 4-5 people are complaining" is clueless.

    EVERYONE knows they are over-powered.

    2. Whoever said they are easy to run from has obviously:
    A. No PvP'ed
    B. Sucks at PvP and doesnt want their Bola using Gimp to be nurfed.

    With 320 skill points and a crappy suit...you can own a 840 skill point Mage or Dexer with max resists and a 300 million suit.

    Its stupid and lame.
  23. Yalp

    Yalp Guest

    If you need feedback from the player base.. getting it on stratics forum is not an accurate method. take some time. log into the game, spend time observing pvp/fel side on any shard. If GD's and tamers have become overpowering, you'll see nothing but a sea of wings and claws. then some changes will rightly be needed. Short of doing that.. it's just a bunch of blow-holes talking out of their ass-hat.

    LORD Yalp of Zento, CTDM
  24. Eslake

    Eslake Guest

    I still say people are drastically overrating GDs in PvP since I have no trouble dealing with them at all.
    (and as Yalp says, if they are so overpowered in PvP why isn't Fel crawling with them?)

    But if breath weapon is the big issue, I have no problem if they nerf it to say.. 20% more than a Normal dragon's for PvP.

    The problem is, they won't do that.
    They always overshoot the Needed reduction on things by orders of magnitude. Then they have to follow with nerfs to other skills and abilities in order to "rebalance."
  25. o2bavr6

    o2bavr6 Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Note to self: Don't turn my back to JD :p
  26. love2winalot

    love2winalot Guest

    Here is my question. If a person could only play 1 game, would EA rather have them come or return to UO, or have them play Warhammer?

    It is one or the other, not both, thankyou.
  27. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

  28. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    ok and your meleer has how many hit points ? maybe 150
    my dragon has what 800+

    what are you thinking ? a mellee'r should be the same as that ? whatever. my dragon better eat you before you even blink at that ratio.

    no wonder people want UO back to PRE-aos. then most things where even.
    no uber this, not super that. ore types each had there 'specialties' but none was better than another , cept for exceptional was better than non-exceptional.

    ahh the good ol days, armor suit's where so easy to make because everyone could have the same thing. ( full plate suit, full leather, bone armor.. etc..)
    the true skill came more from the player than the item's they had.
  29. Lord Kynd

    Lord Kynd Guest

    what differance would this make to them as a company ?
    they want your money, as long as you pay them and not blizzard :p
  30. Revenant2

    Revenant2 Guest

    This is kinda BS. Mages and every other proper PVP template can kill a tamer, but it does require the PVPer to excersize the correct caution AND for the tamer to not work the dragon purely defensively.

    This is no different from the other major, powerful templates. It's hard-to-impossible to kill other templates that are playing with maximum defense (for some templates that simply means running away, whereas a superdragon-tamer combo is defensive in an entirely different way).

    I think that some of the non-tamers liked pure tamers the way they were before Superdragons came up. In an all out confrontation, all you had to do was put enough damage on the two relatively low-HP pets to slow them down, then dump on the tamer and it was over.

    Bringing superdragons into this picture was not a bad idea. Instead of outright nerfing the overpowered templates, this raised tamers closer to the level where they can survive and fight back against them. This is a more comfortable way, as far as playerbase impact is concerned, to deal with imbalances and I'm glad they took it that direction.

    ....And a tamer with a crap suit would die before the superdragon could fully engage the attacker and kill him, you know.
  31. Redxpanda

    Redxpanda Lore Keeper
    Stratics Veteran

    Dec 6, 2007
    Likes Received:
    It would be nice if they answered real questions/concerns for a change. I am expecting more of the same.

    How do i dry dock a boat?

    To dry dock a boat your hold must be empty and your anchor must be down. Once you are on land simply double click the little man on the back of the ship.

    Town Hall Blah Blah

    Next publish exciting blah blah story arc cant talk about it yet blah blah future.

    Edit in*** Do they really think we are too stupid to realize that they purposely avoid certain questions?
  32. You didn't answer my question.

    Why should a Tamer be more powerful than ANY other class in the game?

    A dragon having a lot of HP's doesn't answer that question. The question was WHY SHOULD, not WHAT MAKES.
  33. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    There aren't any classes in this game. Animal taming is a skill, not a class. Any character can use this skill.
  34. HD2300

    HD2300 Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Apr 2, 2006
    Likes Received:
    One question.

    Can item loot from peerless and strongboxes be bumped up? The only good armour and weapons nowadays is from runics of which most are illegally obtained. It is rewarding the wrong players, not players that play the game fairly.
  35. It's a generalization, not a specific term. You know, like Dexxer, Mage, Archer, etc. Which still doesn't answer the question, just brings up your well known pet peeve.
  36. I think they already took it, and it wasn't an oral reading either. :blushing:
  37. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    Animal taming is not the I win button. Sorry, but it's just not. Animal tamers die just like any other character. There are no be all end all characters. There are strengths and weaknesses to any character type.

    The greater dragons are pretty powerful, but they still die. They still have weaknesses.

    The greater dragon is NOT the animal tamer character. Nor is any other pet that character controls.

    So to clarify:

    "Why should a Tamer be more powerful than ANY other class in the game?"

    My answer, "They aren't."

    Otherwise they wouldn't be walking up to my beggar in dungeons looking for a res.
  38. You're skipping over the statement that brought up this tanget:

    "nor should a player be as sttrong as 90% of the pet's."

    The question is in relation to this perception, which is a common one among Tamers, not which character type is better in some cases and not in others, and if Tamers die or not. If you're going to jump into the tangent, at least stick with the context that formed it.
  39. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    You are making the very wrong assumption that player character melee are designed for the sole purpose of being damage soaks or "tanks". UO melee characters are offensive in nature. They are close range "nukers" to use the generic MMO terms you like to throw around. Animal tamers provide the damage soaks. The high HP distractions for high end PvM.

    As far as PvP goes.... Most PvPers run on characters designed to exploit the balance of offense and defense most other PvP characters use. When you throw a tamer or bard into the mix they are often ill prepared to handle that character type. Strategically and character equipment/skill type.
  40. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
    Governor Stratics Veteran Alumni Stratics Legend Campaign Supporter Royal Knight

    Aug 21, 2000
    Likes Received:
    Hiding and stealth need fixed everywhere.....

    I have 120 stealth and GM hiding..... Anyone with the normal human tracking can track me it may take them a few tries but they can do it.....

    Personally I think a successful track should last only a while based on the level of skill of the tracker... As it is now with no skill at all the successful track lasts just as long as it does if I worked really hard and gained GM tracking... IMO this is not right at all.

    On the subject of Stealthing and hiding... Again I have 220 points in These skills.... it really irritates me that while I can walk circles around most people or most monsters I can't get within 4 tiles of ANYONE flagged "my enemy" ie orange... This comes from their passive detect?? What????? Wait they don't have any.... I'm the ELF! They are human! They have the base 20 detect???? Right so 20 points of completely free skill negates 220 points of real skill everytime????? HOW is that right???? My feeling is as an elf I am supposed to have more detect, I'm supposed to "see" better in the dark and one would think in the shadows of hiding and stealth I would have some advantage... and certainly you would think that being legendary in the art of walking in shadow that would allow me to stealth past my enemy a bit closer than by 4 tiles... Long time ago this issue was supposedly "fixed" and while it certainly helped "fix" it as far as I no longer get detected by rabbits..... I still can not come anywhere near my "enemies"... My feeling is if they aren't actively looking for me with detect and tracking then they shouldn't be able to reveal me that easily.
  41. It's not an assumption. It's an assertion that they should be. There's no reason that I've seen anyone give as to why a meleer that can take down a greater dragon in seconds can't survive just as well in a PvM situation. Having a Tamer when a tank is needed shouldn't be a requirement, but an option. A warrior with the skill invested in Parry & Bushido, along with items designed solely for defensive purposes should be able to tank just as well.
  42. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    What role do you want to see the animal taming skill provide in the game if not that of providing a damage soak? Also, you would then like to see melee damage reduced and defense buffed to fit your vision of how UO should work?
  43. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Jun 7, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Breath damage from a greater dragon [wild] against 70 fire resist, does around 60 damage. The breath damage is based on the remaining hp of the dragon. The normal formula is (Base damage=HP/10).

    For a greater dragon that has around 2k HP this means something like 200. Then you apply your fire resist and you should only receive 30% of that Base Damage, that is 60.

    Now, considering that upon taming the hp of greater dragons is halved, the maximum damage a greater dragon [tamed] can inflict with its firebreath should be 30 against 70 fire resist. To receive 90 damage from a firebreath you should have around 10 fire resist.
  44. Why does there have to be only one class, character type, skill, whatever you want to call it, that can do this? It should be an option to choose from, not a requirement. UO is set apart from every other game by it's freedom of choice in what type characters we have and the skillsets they have. The simple fact that Tamers & their pets are the only viable tanks in the game goes against that same freedom.

    If that was what was required to maintain the "balance", then so be it. I know I'm far from alone in preferring to play my meleer above any other character, and I'd like to be able to use him. If it has to be a choice between being able to deal massive amounts of damage but having little defense or being able to absorb massive amounts of damage but have damage dealt cut down, I'd be more than willing to accept that.
  45. Anakena

    Anakena Seasoned Veteran
    Stratics Veteran

    Jun 7, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The problem is that UO is a game where you are free to do what you want (at least in felucca) provided you respect the ToS. If you want to mine, fish, trade,... in felucca, you can If you want to hunt in felucca you can do it too, be it with or without pet.

    What happens if a tamer is farming demons in Wind and pk attacks him? Either the pk wins and let the tamer know he should have stayed in trammel (this is the polite version), either he loses and he comes post here that taming should be nerfed.

    There is a common attitude among reds that only mages or dexxers should be allowed on felucca. Felucca was,and still is, an entire facet allowing all play styles.

    Soon, if a miner dares to resist to a pk attack (sometimes recalling away is admitted) he will be considered as a lamer!
  46. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    Here is why that can't be done: UO isn't a class based game. If you let a player character add a skill or skills that allow them to act as a "tank" someone will simply pair that ability up with the highest damage offensive skill creating a super character. A game wrecking unbalanced offense/defense template. We see that all the time as far back as the game goes. PvP is inundated with this type of character as it is.... Give them the ability to do to PvM what they already do to PvP and how long before the majority of characters in the game are one build?
  47. That's no reason it can't be done. Anything is possible, especially in UO. It's just a matter of figuring out how to make it work.
  48. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 18, 2004
    Likes Received:
    It isn't for me, anyway.

    I tank pretty high end stuff on my Chiv Dexxer, without any tamer, and without even having Necro...

    Oh...you weren't talking about Paragon Dragons and such?

    Listen...Dragons have 4-6 or more time the HP of a player...but you seriously think that any PC "With the right skills and/or items" should be able to tank that well?

    There should be some trade-offs for the abilities afforded by a pet with 500 HP, indeed. Are there enough? Not sure on that one.

    But your argument that "A Meleer needs to be able to tank just like a dragon, against any creature in the game"...is well...ludicrous, at best, IMO.

    But you already know this, I am pretty sure.
  49. Surgeries

    Surgeries Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 18, 2004
    Likes Received:

    Perfectly stated.
  50. Excuse me for expecting a meleer to actually, well......melee. You know, give as well as take? Not have to fight as if he's in a jousting tournament.

    If that was the way I felt on the matter, you'd know it. Of that I'M pretty sure.