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Learning from other games...

Discussion in 'UHall' started by Lore, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    So I play a lot of other PC games. I've spent more time in Warcraft than UO at this point. The big difference between UO and Warcraft for me has been that UO changes have always made me want to come back and play. It's been the community and economy that have generally made me disappointed.

    I wouldn't change any of you though. I just think the game has aged to the point where the community has settled and the economy has just gotten out of hand.

    Warcraft, on the other hand, went in a direction that I did not continue to enjoy. Because of this, I'm excited for Classic servers and I've been getting the MMO itch. Nothing beats the itch more than UO so I'm coming back for a couple months while waiting on Classic. I plan on subscribing and not doing the free to play model.

    This is a long video, but everything he says disparaging the changes in newer MMOs struck me as things UO has never done wrong. I love this content creator and highly recommend his channel, but it never focuses on content many of you may enjoy. If you watch this video, can you let me know what you think about the idea of UO maybe creating a classic shard.

    My only complaint with the current game is the continued trend of not allowing runes and marking and the itemizations. I really miss the colored crafted armor and Valorite being king. I really miss the easy itemization of Vanquishing and slayer weapons and that's it.

    I know that many of you will probably not like the idea of change. I don't think the players of this game have a lot of tolerance for such things. But, if you could think back to the times you had during this era of UO, maybe you could understand that there are players out there that would enjoy it. Private servers are an option, but I've never been a fan for many reasons. They are corrupt and they can go down randomly. I've just never been a fan.

    Thank you.

     
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  2. Xris

    Xris Sage

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    I took a break from wow to come back to UO too. Im also excited for classic server too. It has been brought up to devs that a hybrid or classic server would be popular, and they said no. I don't think they have the time or money to do it. Just my opinion, but just enjoy the time you play, don't let scripters and dupers ruin your time. People with unlimited gold kind of ruined the games economy, and they can't seem to fix it. So now I try to stay as self reliant as possible and play til I'm not having fun. The lights will go off someday, so enjoy now.
     
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  3. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Yea, probably would be a bit too much for the team. But man I sure do miss those days and I think it's more than just the nostalgia I definitely have for it.
     
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  4. Xris

    Xris Sage

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    Ya I only log in a few days a week now. They keep bumping then nerfing loot. There's only a few places worth your time now which kind of sucks.
     
    Laura_Gold likes this.
  5. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I never played WoW but have been enjoying Black Desert Online of late... I too miss the old pre-itemization of UO when Valorite was king... but I guess it's a trade off... I'd hate to go back to the prefab housing... that's for sure.

    Greed IMO has been strangling the life out of UO for some time... people have forgotten community... they don't need it anymore they solo everything and want everything for themselves and seem obsessed with how much everything is "worth"... but to me what is worth more than anything in UO is the community... and I would give all the stuff away to have that back.
     
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  6. Spartan

    Spartan Lore Keeper

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    Count me in on missing the pre-stuff days. My first silver katana of vanquishing gave me goosebumps.

    I've tried out WoW and DAoC, some others whose names escape me. Not too thrilled with the structured skill trees at all and there is a marked lack of community. Or I'm looking in all the wrong places.
     
  7. grimiz

    grimiz Sage

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    The biggest reason most people and BS use against a classic shard is that they "don't have the codebase anymore" or that the "old UO was too buggy".

    No one says they have to use the old codebase - use what you have now and just start disabling systems. Leave the systems that have been good for QoL that don't impact that retro feel. ****, just leave the UI exactly how it is for starters and have all the extra buttons not do anything.
    - weapons and spells only do physical damage
    - no vet rewards picks
    - no custom houses
    - no styg/eodon/malas/etc.
    - no skill books/gains for bush/necro/myst/etc
    - no pet bonding/training
    - no eth mounts
    - keep the new boats
    - keep the account based gold sharing
    - all the other stuff too! ;)

    I mean, surely easier said than done... but everyone knows it is NOT impossible.

    I floated the idea a few years ago about event/season servers (to attract users) that you can test crazy systems on that won't impact prod servers but everyone poopoo'd it.
     
  8. grimiz

    grimiz Sage

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    There is definitely something to be said for a game with simple/understandable systems. Playing them can be refreshing.

    You think those skill trees are nuts, try PoE...
     
    Chazztizer likes this.
  9. Whitewolf of *VK*

    Whitewolf of *VK* Lore Keeper
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    Im also waiting on classic WoW, cant wait to play my NE hunter hunter again, but yea sadly UO has pretty much followed the real world in the aspect the greed has taking over, back in the day UO wasn't about money or greed it was about community, now greed and money is all UO is about.
     
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  10. Xris

    Xris Sage

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    I showed my rl friend uo recently. He worked necro ss and mage to 80 sitting in New haven. He had no idea what really to do, there isn't much direction for brand new players. UO has such a steep learning curve and it's ever expanding. I'd love to play a classic shard and show him that. He'd love it.
     
  11. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Ya, I hadn't even considered housing, but even that I kinda miss having just my small house in the middle of the woods with just wood chests and a magincia throne in it. I had this log cabin in that spot directly north leaving Moonglow and felt like a king for getting that spot right out of the gate. My friend had a tower south east of the Yew Moongate and I thought she was the richest person in UO for a while.
     
  12. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Grand Inquisitor
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    Another one of these threads. Joy.

    UO isn't a bunch of modules like the free shards are, things can't simply be "turned off" on a whim. Having talked to the developers, UO is a rat's nest of old, decrepit code built on a foundation of sand. OSI admittedly wrote super sketchy, corner-cutting rushed code to get UO on store shelves. Twenty-plus years hasn't done the current devs any favors.

    In any regard, see the multitude of previous threads as to why such an undertaking isn't going to happen.
     
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  13. Anonymous UOPlayer

    Anonymous UOPlayer Journeyman
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    *sighs* this again.

    let's check in with "classic" wow, shall we?

    https://kotaku.com/world-of-warcraft-classic-beta-players-are-reporting-bu-1834864959

    for those who don't feel like clicking: the beta players are so much "in love" with the 'classic' game that they report old features as bugs. yep. sounds like they liked the idea of classic, not the reality.

    also the old stuff about how "they could just disable systems?" uhh...no. some stuff might be left but a lot of it has to be newer. for example: damage. how do we know damage is totally diff from pre-aos? simple. no zero damage spell bug for one. remember how they never fixed that? because they knew they were adding new damage mechanics so why bother. also i remember them talking about how pre-aos player damage against other players and player damage against monsters worked different and aos would re-merge them. weird? yes but that's what they said at the time. also those who think they 'only had physical damage" back then seem 2 think that they just took pre-aos damage, called it physical, and added the rest ontop of it...possible i guess but hard to imagine how it could've worked especially with the other evidence that they re-wrote the damgae systems.

    another example: housing.

    another example: runic crafting/crafting in general. do you really think that the plethora of properties we have now could somehow be commented out and then the older system would just be restored by magic somehow? think about it: even the conversion of GM weapons to the aos system is different now. when aos came out, GM made used to give you default 15% di and that was it. they increased it to 35% later. how do you think that, say, the multi-tiered resist system we have now would somehow translate into AR?

    another example: guild system. do you think that somehow the guildstone system could just be flipped back on and the notably different system we have now flipped back off? not likely. the systems are way different and i have a hard time thinking they just commented out the old system versus deleted it.

    We've been told by multiple dev team members (most notably Draconi) that the old code is gone and was not kept, and he's also described the poor state the game's documentation was in when he was on the team. (i note that wow is a younger game and, based on what I've seen of the game and its team, way better documented and has access to historical information about itself that we only can dream of.)

    even if they commented out everything and could just un-comment it and click upload....well think about it: what would the effects be? we've seen how this game has a 'i swallowed a fly, so i swalllowed a spider to eat the fly, then something to eat the spider' quality.

    think about wow....why, do you suppose, would they need a beta for a "classic" server? because stuff is unpredictable. even there they can't just cut things out and produce 'classic' from 'current.' and that game's set up way better than uo is.

    even if they COULD do it though (say they hired a few dozen coders and put them all to work re-building the old game to the specifications of whatever player happened to win this debate, which is what they would have to do)....it'd be a bad idea.

    let's be honest about what this thread wants. like all such threads it wants pre-trammel. sooner or later it'll come down to that. always has, always does, always will.

    and that's where the most-obvious failure is, because the unsupportable premise of such threads is that the pre-Trammel days were more successful, and were so on the basis of being pre-Trammel, and that bringing in a custom rules shard would emulate that success.

    those folks forget what should be obvious: that there was way more limited competition in the pre-Trammel days, that most players left Fel behind when Trammel was created (because few wanted the Fel lifestyle), and that UO's competition that was successful was way less Fel-like than UO ever was.

    tf the premise of these custom rules thread was true, then Publish 16, double resources, factions, vvv, dungeon khaldun, and all the other stuff they've thrown in to draw people 2 fel never would have happened, because people never would've left fel so no need 2 lure people there. hell, for that matter, if pre-tram was all that great a business model then tram never would've happened because there'd be no need for it. Also, games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing. Everquest would be dead, Shadowbane would be thriving. Pre-Tram UO free shards would have huge populationsm dwarfing the proper game itself. eve online's pvp areas would be thriving but players of it tell me that most people play in the more-controlled areas. league of legends wouldn't need to periodically reset everything so that new players would want to jump in.

    hell, this thread wouldn't exist because the fel business model would never've been needed to end but it was and it did.

    even, say, a pre-Publish 16 rules set would be subject to similar problems -- see where we began with wow players reporting old features as bugs.

    *shrugs*
     
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  14. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Truth spoken from @Dot_Warner and @Anonymous UOPlayer is there...

    We can't go back even if anyone wanted to... we can't .... how many times has the story of the lost papers and documents from moving from Austin to CA been told?

    They can't just click off things it's not a free shard... the code is a mess and there is no fixing it... unless of course you wanted to all change to the EC or some new client but lets see... there are less than 10 people on the DEV team... and how many years do you suppose it would take them to basically rewrite UO? Then in the meantime there would be no new stuff, no new gifts, no new anything... Heck most of them and us probably wouldn't live long enough to see a project like that through... so yeah.

    Sure we all get a bit nostalgic for the old days... but IMO that's mostly the friends we miss. I could name at least 2 or 3 dozen people who quit that I would love to see again... but chances of that are slim to none... pretty sure some of them are probably dead by now.

    I know some play games like LoTRO and such or they did... some play Star Trek and many play WoW... but the idea that they would come back to play UO ... pretty far fetched. Not sure what it would take to get them back... but I know for most it would take a miracle... they quit because the other games are far prettier... have better systems for keeping you occupied with quests and the like... whereas UO is basically what you make of it and if you don't have much of an imagination and are more of a follower than a soloist or leader then it's very likely you'll quickly run out of things to do. Mostly because you won't know they even exist...
     
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  15. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    I mean, I searched the first two pages of topics before posting. It is a message board. If you don't like talking about things why are you on a message board? Retro servers are a current topic in gaming. One of the largest successful MMOs is going through it right now. At what point do we have your permission to talk about things oh great Dot?

    I've been pretty open to what people are saying and not arguing. But the point that you can't go back to a previous iteration of a game is just false. I understand the excuses the player base here uses. Things like "spaghetti" code or they no longer have it. Anyone with an ounce of programming training can tell you that these aren't really excuses. Everything ends up with "spaghetti" code and if Warcraft can do it, why can't UO? Also, Everquest does it. Runescape does it. But UO just can't possibly do it? Ignorance.

    Everything Anonymous posted is a twisted spiteful analysis of realty. It's a Beta for an old game. If you judged something based on bug reports for games no game would look good. It's ignoring the reality of what's going on by all the other content creators in the Beta as well. The Classic Servers on WoW are going to be very successful.

    I mean, I agree that it's not worth it for the current team to explore and the cost would outweigh the benefit, but the last few posts in this thread have been just vitriol nonsense and not real points IMO.
     
    #15 Lore, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  16. Dot_Warner

    Dot_Warner Grand Inquisitor
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    This topic has literally been talked to death. For over a decade. None of the reasoning against it has changed for the better, in fact the reasons why it's not going to happen have only increased. Just type "classic shard" into the search.

    The arguments in favor of a classic shard tend to be bereft of facts or non-anecdotal data, but long on speculatively fanciful nostalgia. There have been lots of "build it and they will come" zealots.

    UO wasn't created with good coding practices in mind. The older code has minimal or no commenting and tends to be rather fragile. Changing old systems requires learning how they work and which other systems they interact with...then trying to work with that without breaking things. New code is patched on top of this old crap code and is why new systems take so long to graft in. Far too many things were simply kludged into UO over the years with only cursory regard to future extensibility.

    UO has two people who code. Two. That's not enough to realistically think about (re)creating a codebase they no longer even have referential access to. The devs have already stated that to go down this path it would optimistically require around 18 months from planning to development to testing, etc - all with absolutely NO development for the current shards (likely including holiday gifts and vet rewards). UO would stand still for a year and a half to appease an ever-dwindling group of mythical nostalgists.

    To even begin this task, the players would have to reach a consensus as to WTF "classic" means for UO. Which current systems, lands/areas and art assets to include. I hold no hope for that to be accomplished in a sane or even remotely diplomatic manner.

    WoW, RS and (at one point) EQ have significantly more resources behind them as their parent companies aren't the dysfunctionally myopic moneysuck that is EA. (UO persists in spite of EA.) Even a cursory glance at the active player numbers for WoW (~1.7 million) and RS (93,029 online as of 12am CDT) indicate they have a lot of disposable income to spend on alternate ruleset servers. I can only wish UO had 93K people playing it right now.
     
  17. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Alright, I already agreed that it's not feasible for a couple reasons you listed. I don't agree with all your points and I think you are displaying all the qualities of a bigot on this topic, but I agree that a classic shard isn't going to happen.

    I guess we live in a world on this board where if it's already been talked about nothing could possibly change to talk more about it. I mean, imagine if the news stopped talking about a topic because they've done articles on the subject in the past and they considered it a done issue.

    This topic isn't just about classic shards though. The video has other points that I thought were of value to learn from. Intrinsic versus Extrinsic reward systems, for example. UO is filled with Extrinsic. I see it often complained about when I lurk.
     
  18. MissEcho

    MissEcho Babbling Loonie
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    I would be happy if they just opened a NEW shard all with all existing rules/facets accept NO transfers on or off. Also no purchasing leather, cloth, ingots and other resources off the npc's like the NPC's on siege (although other items not 3 x the price but regular prodo shard prices). Make it where you must grow your own flax for cloth or gather cotton/wool etc, cut your own leather and boards. It would be great to play a regular shard with an economy not totally stuffed by transfers.
     
  19. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Seems good... but the scripters would have that market cornered in a week.
     
  20. Anonymous UOPlayer

    Anonymous UOPlayer Journeyman
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    i have explained myself adequately -- it would be both impractical and, even more importantly, inadvisable, for the reasons I capably demonstrated.

    i know i can't convert u. u, and others like u, have faith-based opinions on this subject. logic cannot overcome faith.

    all u really have 2 counter is insults ("spiteful") and more faith ("Classic Serves on WoW are going to be very successful," sure they will, especially if people will realize that lack of features they're accustomed to aren't bugs lol).
     
  21. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Alright, since I'm being called out as using poor arguments. I'll try and be better about it.

    What I've seen so far in the thread is a definitive no from the current UO team. I already agreed that this is a big reason it's not going to happen. That was out of the way before you two went on your points about why it shouldn't ever be talked about again. Good point. I considered it and agree.

    Dot used the old "spaghetti" code argument claiming it wasn't possible. This is flawed. The obvious FACTUAL argument is that other games had spaghetti code too and have done it and there are actual private servers that have done it. I'd link them, but it's against TOS. Making it convenient to call out that I have no facts. Also, I don't understand why someone that isn't a programmer for the game can use how the code's status is as a "fact" when they just don't know what's possible or not. There are a lot of instances where code becomes a jumbled mess. You don't give up on an idea because you encounter a problem. It's just a obstacle to be overcame assuming that the first point wasn't true.

    The argument about modules or plugins and just turning them off isn't something I brought up. So I'm not going to argue against it. I'll just reiterate that you don't do it so you shouldn't speak on it. It doesn't make what you say a fact.

    Your article from Kotaku, a joke website at this point, is very selective. That one article is dwarfed by the countless articles and content providers in Beta that are praising the game. The Beta bug report list isn't really illustrative of people not enjoying the Classic servers so far. And the private servers for Classic were very popular. Below is my FACTUAL source. Unfortunately, numbers are tough to get at for a lot of games, but it's better than just pulling things out of the butt.

    The Numbers Across All Private Servers
    This is the pure data numbers using the ratio from the Nostalrius infographic. The ratio of total WoW server to Nostalrius average players online was 10.00125, making it a very straightforward process to compile the rest of the numbers.

    Average Players Online – 80,010
    Peak Players Online – 131,016
    Active Accounts – 1,300,163
    Accounts Created – 7,300,913
    Characters Created – 24,384,008

    An Estimated 1.3 Million People Playing on WoW Private Servers - DKPminus

    The rest of your post is really about coding issues. You're speculating and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that it's possible. Facts? Well other games and shards have done it.

    I never wanted pre-Trammel. I would like pre-AOS, personally. Because you joined the thread with a bias, you are assuming. You don't have an open mind for discussion. That makes it difficult to talk to you on a forum.

    The rest of your post was pretty hard to read and it appears to be mostly based on an assumption that pre-Trammel is the aim, which isn't the case.

    Which brings me to Dot's point on the fact that players would have to come to terms with what a Classic Shard actually means... This is a good point, but it's not a reason to just say no. This isn't an impossible task. Even in terms of Warcraft they still talk about this. 1.12 was the patch they landed on. Some people complain about it, but they accept it. They are still going to play. The idea that you can't do something because it doesn't please everyone is not constructive and that's the fact.



    So, it's my opinion that the only real argument here is that the team already said no and the limited resources. It still doesn't mean you can't talk about it and reminisce. Also, nostalgia isn't an argument. So what if it's nostalgia? Being nostalgic doesn't mean it won't be fun to play. You all wave this word around like it's some end all argument insult. Yea, I'm nostalgic for UO.
     
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  22. Stinky Pete

    Stinky Pete Seasoned Veteran

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    For the record, the server software that these private servers are using is totally different than what BS has. Consider that both iterations of the private server software are written in C#, a language that didn't even exist in 1997. I have seen the source code for the private server software and it is very well written and incredibly modular. If BS wanted to start a classic shard, they would be better off using the software that private servers use and I don't think EA would let them do that. The spaghetti code argument, though ridiculous, actually does have merit.
     
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  23. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Ya, I wouldn't expect an exact copy of 1996 in 2019. Warcraft didn't either. They just worked the current client backwards. There are some things like resistances and armor and HP that they are just piecing together. It's not an insurmountable problem.
     
  24. Stinky Pete

    Stinky Pete Seasoned Veteran

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    Nah, it's very possible but using the server software they have would be reinventing the wheel and unnecessarily complicated. We all know that there are options out there for classic era UO. Most of them are now defunct for a multitude of reasons. I for one, have no faith in BS to be able to keep a classic era shard populated any better than one of these now defunct private servers. I miss the classic era as well, but let's face it, nostalgia wears off after a time and change is what is needed to keep people playing for the long haul. It's the reason the free shards always disappear overnight.
     
  25. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    I disagree that nostalgia is the reason. I feel it's more along the lines of the nature of private shards than what the private shards choose for the content. It's my opinion that it's the same reason I don't play on private servers in the first place. They are corrupt and they don't have any responsibility to the players in terms of servers and uptime.

    The only fact that I can provide for it is that other games have official classic servers still going strong if not stronger than the retail.
     
  26. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Everytime they have tried to "reinvent" UO they have failed... terribly. First off many won't switch from the CC that's been proven over and over again...

    So reinventing UO to make a "classic" shard will never work as they would seriously have to reinvent UO again... and you know they won't do it right and a vast majority will hate it.

    So we all know anyway the team is too small and it will never happen why do we have to keep bringing it up?

    Sure there are things I'd like to "go back to" pre-AoS sort of... but not. I don't want to give up housing changes... I don't want to give up many things. I like Malas, Eodon, Ter Mur... the Abyss... Mysticism... and even Elves... so yeah... not willing to backtrack.
     
  27. grimiz

    grimiz Sage

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    Man, you guys are just stuck on "finding the old codebase"....

    If they have a developer who can merge account gold they can sure as F figure out where a method call is invoked when you try to cast rising colossus and return "You cannot do that" instead.

    Code isn't mystical or magical, and I can guarantee they aren't using any DI or IoC that can be inherently tricky to figure out what is going on just by looking at it.

    It's. just. code.
     
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  28. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    What's the problem with talking about it? And why do I need facts in my points but others can just make up their own things and assumptions?

    My first post I got excited about Classic. But really the bigger point I also wanted to discuss was the idea he brings up in the video about intrinsic versus extrinsic rewards. I feel that UO has relied on Extrinsic rewards a lot more since the itemization. I see many complaints about how the rewards aren't good enough for some of the content. If the team swapped to a more intrinsic style of reward for some patches it may alleviate some of that criticism.

    Also, just to edit this in, I find it kinda funny how there's such rage at "oh no not another one of these topics" and then posts about how no one will be interested in it. Doesn't that sound odd to you at all? Like on even a small level?
     
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  29. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    It gets old all the people who think they want all that old back...

    What I'd like to have back is people... but that's not happening...

    The itemization isn't the problem... it's the greed. Everyone wants everything to be "rare" and mostly unattainable to anyone but themselves. But how much rare is too much? Right now "rares" are spewed out at an alarming rate. IMO it sort of distracts from real gameplay... and the need to acquire all the stuffs... distracts from community and play.
    I would rather they focused on global events that occupy more time... like the Halloween stuff and such where everyone can do things as a group ... which I think is more fun than the weekly 1 day when often many can't attend sort of events.
     
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  30. grimiz

    grimiz Sage

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    Umm. Derailed?

    Classic UO *barely* even had the concept of rares. Fruitbaskets and skull candles. wooooo.

    I don't think anyone who is asking for a classic shard cares about rares or legendary god items. The game wasn't even about that back then. Classic UO is about a cleaner game that is less about items and more about community and to some small degree, skill.
     
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  31. Lore

    Lore Lore Keeper

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    Well, I've resubbed and look forward to playing with you. I'm excited to get some BODs going and making my swordsmanship paladin that can't do anything a Sampire can.
     
  32. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    Oh I agree... I want that back. But the chances are that's never going to happen. Mostly I want community back...

    Just saying that greed IMO has been killing UO of late. UO was simpler pre-AoS... I guess I miss that.
     
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  33. Dorset

    Dorset Adventurer
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    @Lore - Good luck with this topic my friend.
    I too miss the old days, I compare everything I play to UO. That is just how good it was back then compared to the market.

    But do I want an old classic style server? In some ways yes, and then no. And that will always be the problem we all have different parts of the old game we liked. You would never get the keyboard warrior generation to agree.

    I've played the classic free servers, they always end the same. Gank fest and generally over the top griefing, I'm too old for that now and no longer 15 and find it fun. I miss playing a challenging game, and a game where you had to work together to achieve a goal but there is some bits I do not want to go back too.

    Personally for me, id just love UO to be a bit more simpler, less neon items, unicorns and people crying they didn't get a Easter bunny present….
    Old UO was real basic compared to todays version, but it was raw and fun.
     
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  34. MalagAste

    MalagAste Belaern d'Zhaunil
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    I miss the community... I miss the fact that it took a guild to go to a dungeon... you couldn't go with 2 people and control everything in most dungeons... Now if you take 2 people to do something like killing dragons you pretty much wipe out the spawn and have to stand about waiting for something to spawn which is BORING...

    I never played in the "fel" only days and I can say for sure that had I been forced into that kind of gameplay I'd be exactly like my brother and would have given UO about 2 days before saying forget this doodoo... only I wouldn't have been so polite with the verbiage... and never would have touched UO again and would probably be playing WoW or EQ2 these days... not UO.

    I'm still getting to the point of frustration enough to quit and say forget this doodoo but it's that serious love of the game I developed in the early days of UO:R that keeps me here... Between UO:R and KR I loved UO and couldn't ever picture myself playing anything else... no matter what it had for graphics or anything... I didn't care UO was my joy... but now UO is more of an annoyance I tolerate to still be with my friends.... those that are still here and haven't left for greener (prettier) pastures... or whatever... or died.

    For me it's the greed and the grind that has killed the fun... and being forced to play templates that I don't like... such as a Sampire to be able to do anything in the game... and I prefer not to play UO solo... if I wanted a solo game I'd play a solo game like Diablo, Skyrim or something of that nature... the Sims. I play UO for the community... for the friendships... and to relax and have fun... fun for me is not repeating the same grind over and over and over to try to get some snowballs chance in hades of getting some item I want... or need. That isn't fun.

    Fun used to be defending the towns, going to the tavern and maybe sometimes a bit of RPPvP... but I'm older now and PvP isn't much my thing. I still like hunting but with most my houses packed to the gills, I don't see the point in acquiring more stuff... not that I ever get much of anything worth bringing home most of the time.

    But fun was working as a team... with the guild. Doing mock battles, roaming through a dungeon to kill all the inhabitants... saving the day, helping and protecting the town... and all that. Mostly though it was the friendships. Going to get repairs and actually talking to other players and interacting...

    Now UO seems to be all about do this for a long while to try to get a set of something ... so you can stick that in a box somewhere and forget about it... though most folk seem only interested in selling it to the highest bidder so they can turn and sell the gold for $$$... which to me is just pointless. Go get another real job if you need the money that bad.
     
  35. petemage

    petemage Certifiable
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    Everybody: Go spent some time reading that old can-of-worms code

    BS:


    On a more serious note, I wouldn't probably start over somewhere again. I'm quite ok with how the economy is on Atlantic and I don't even have shields to move off and on. It's not required to engage in the high end sales to play the game, and in the end everyone can make a couple hundred mils as long as they put the required time into the game. That's no different than Ark or STO, which I happen to play a lot more than UO. For those concers I have on Atlantic, I don't see a legacy server being the answer.
     
    #35 petemage, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  36. Spartan

    Spartan Lore Keeper

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    Not disagreeing but as one of my early projects (about 1984) was to untangle and fix the spaghetti code a prior programmer had done. The purchasing system for the client (a nuke plant) was causing issues. I got it done in a month (with alpha and beta tests) with little new code but just cleanup of things.

    Over the years - and admittedly some VERY ancient languages, I worked in Dartmouth BASIC, VB, VBA, C, C#, C++, FORTRAN/4 and 7, COBOL, Assembler, RPG III, RPG IV, Pascal as well as slight usage SQL Server and Oracle programming of procs. <shrug>

    I said it before and I'll say it again. I'm more than willing to NDA and review the code to help document things as best I can. No charge. I spent 40 years making life a bit simpler (I hope) for people and this would be just another instance.
     
    #36 Spartan, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
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  37. Cymidei

    Cymidei UO Pacific News Reporter
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    Lol just remember how horrible Classic WoW was! Hope you really do enjoy it when it comes out.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  38. kaio

    kaio Lore Master
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    All i want is a shard with FEL rule set everywhere, and no trammel :)
    The truth about programmers are that unless they code it them self, its spaghetti code, been there done it, didn't like it.
     
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  39. Spartan

    Spartan Lore Keeper

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    Fel everywhere = Siege or Mugen.

    The real truth about programmers is that very good ones will comment inline, have structure to the code for ease of reading by others. None of that is really taught these days, but I and others who learned in the '70s thru the '80s had it drilled into us. Been there, done it, got the T-shirt.
     
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  40. kaio

    kaio Lore Master
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    Let me rephraze then.
    I want a shard with feluca rule set everywhere as on prodo shard, and no trammel, and no xfers to and from.

    Just because you comment your code, dosen't make it good. Inline commenting is not very good, since its hard to maintain.
     
  41. Stinky Pete

    Stinky Pete Seasoned Veteran

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    Still sounds like Siege and Mugen, though Mugen has a Trammel, it just has Fel ruleset.

    I would rather work with bad code that is commented well than good code with no comments. Though, I don't comment my code when I know that nobody but myself will ever see it even though I know that I should.
     
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  42. Lord Arm

    Lord Arm Lore Keeper

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    just say no to pandas. is why I left, and because of the daily grind.
     
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  43. callum_fitzhugh

    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

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    I havent read the whole thread.

    But it seems to me we are all a lot older than we were in 1999 - well 20 years older.

    And that leads to a lot of misty-eyed nostalgia yearning for a time when we were possibly happier with life and UO was a part of that.

    We therefore look back with much happiness for a lost era.

    My first house in UO was a small marble given to me by Garod and Alynora of House Tremere in Felucca Moonglow. I loved it soooo much. Was so happy there.

    I left UO when all the role players left Europa to play WoW when it came out. I loved WoW with a passion for six months, then moved on....

    Been moving from game to game ever since - currently in Neverwinter [Free to play] where they just completely nuked the game about five times in a few months. Sure boy oh boy have they lost a LOT of players over it! Game designes and game OWNERS do not always make the right decisions.
     
  44. kaio

    kaio Lore Master
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    I don't like RoT on siege, and i like to have insurance.
    I have no idea about what level your coding skills are at, but i can tell from experience that when the code base is over 5000 lines of code, inline commenting just doesn't work as a source for documentation.
    If there is more than 1 developer assigned to the project it starts to get a lot more complicated.
     
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  45. klapios

    klapios Adventurer

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    Yep that's why it quickly became the most successful mmo of all time, because of how horrible it was! See you all on August 27th.
     
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  46. Fridgster

    Fridgster Babbling Loonie
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    I actually had the itch once to go back and play WOW. Saw them advertising pandas. Suddenly no longer interested. Wonder if a level 70 NE Tamer (or whatever they call it can't remember atm) is still viable.
     
  47. klapios

    klapios Adventurer

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    I had the same feeling, I was even at blizzcon (thanks to my brother buying me a ticket) where they announced it. But it was actually a really good expansion.
     
  48. Anonymous UOPlayer

    Anonymous UOPlayer Journeyman
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    First of all to say this is not about pre-Trammel is disingenuous. That's all these posts are ever about.

    Here is my many times posted debunking of the "tram sux" posts. The numbers are a little out of date but the idea is the same.

    If the premise of this idea, that Fel is more popular than Tram and players would return upon the introduction of a "classic" shard, then the following things would also be true, and they aren't. Here we go. This is tiresome because I have to keep posting it.

    Publish 16 never would have happened. Posts from the dev team at the time said that Publish happened because most people had left Felucca for Trammel and there was a need to balance out server loads for a greater degree. If Trammel hadn't been a success, most people never would've left, and Publish 16 never would have happened.

    But it did happen.

    Trammel never would have been created, because the discontent created by Fel never would have existed and thus there never would have been a need for it.

    But it was. (Then see also above.)

    Richard Garriott's Memorable Moment from UO would not have consisted of a realization, caused by an incident of one player harming another, that he had to think hard about the rules of the world he'd created.

    But it was.
    Link: Memorable Moment – Ultima Online

    Starr Long would not have indicated that the creation of Trammel was necessary when he spoke at the UO anniversary party.

    But he did. (There used to be a paraphrase up someplace of the talk he gave; others will remember it though not all will remember it.)

    Siege and Mugen would be the most-populated shards in UO because people would like to play that way.

    But they are not.

    There never would have been a need to have the Siege housing gimmick as people would have played there without it, because they liked to play that way.

    But there was.

    The Fel Abyss spawns would be crowded with folks doing them. (The undead one in particular has a lot of cool content and good rewards.)

    But they're not.

    There wouldn't be posts on Stratics complaining that VvV was dead, because people would jump at the chance to PvP.

    But there are those posts.

    Games that came out post-UO that had more of a Fel type environment would be prospering, whereas games that came out post-UO that had more of a Tram type environment would be failing.

    But that's not the case. Shadowbane is dead. Darkfall has 3,344 likes on facebook;

    Darkfall Online

    Everquest has 66,431;

    EverQuest

    UO has 27,757.

    Ultima Online

    (Facebook likes aren't a perfect indicator of a game's popularity but it's a much better metric than individual posters.)

    No likes for Shadowbane because it died.

    I found a Facebook page for a free shard! Number or likes: 3,773.

    I found a Facebook page for another free shard, specifically dedicated to the Second Age era. Number of likes: 1,680.

    Finally, Fel would be so popular on its own that threads like these wouldn't exist.

    I could go on and on but that's enough for now. Ultimately the argument of these types of threads is "Trammel failed, because failure is defined by the original poster not liking it."

    There was a time when most players would see posts like these and just let them pass by, but I'm glad that time is gone. In not responding to posts like these we run significant risks of letting intense opinion be mistaken for popular opinion.

    Now as to the rest of your post you seem largely ignorant of computer things and seem to suggest that the old code is just sitting around waiting to be reactivated.

    Have you noticed that we don't have the same physical servers that we used to? If nothing else it's pretty unlikely that the code that exchanges information between the server and the client is the same as it was. (I mean how could it be. From EA servers to Amazon "cloud" servers, much more up to date. How much can really be the same? Have you tried playing with your network/Oracle settings, or altering your tnsnames.ora file, or anything like that lately?)

    And that's to say nothing of the fact that the way computer programs are built, even the best ones, resembles a house of cards on a house of cards, and errors can creep in really easy -- especially when you start ignorantly adding code that worked (sort of -- remember all the bugs we used to complain about?) 15 or 20 years ago and assuming it'll still work now. Let's say that a Halberd was, say, item code #5556 in the old system. Let's say I want to resurrect the old random special move system for the halberd and toss out the new AoS special move system. So I bring back the old code for the old system, comment out everything related to halberd in the AoS code (never mind that we're talking about hundreds of lines or more), then paste in the old code, and click run.

    Yay I've restored the old system for halberds! Unless of course halberds no longer are item ##5556, but, say, a spellbook is. I've now given the old halberd specials to a spellbook. Well drat, now i Have to change the item numbers too.....Oh and wait, the damage system is different too. Oh you didn't remember that? You didn't remember how they told us about how in the old days player damage to players and player damage to monsters were on different systems? That's why the HP for monsters used to be higher and one of many reasons why AoS screwed up our PvM timing until we got used to it. That was why the zero damage spell bug (you didn't remember that either did you) wouldn't be a concern after AoS because they were scrapping and replacing the damage system.

    Of course given unlimited times and resources, they could code in anything but that's sort of dumb to say. No game has unlimited time and resources. How can wow do it? different game, budget, manufacturer, business model, approach to saving old code and old documentations. why are documentations important? Because that's how coders know what to code.

    Which brings me to, what's classic anyway? Ultimately it's just a code for "stuff u like better than what we have now." that ain't classic. that's poster's preference.

    So, yeah. I miss the old days when Stratics was smart enough to realize that the mere mention of this idea was dumb and not conducive to a positive community on stratics.



     
  49. Uriah Heep

    Uriah Heep Grand Poobah
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    All the stories about why a professional team (said that straight faced, too) can't do it.

    Yet the basement kids make it work with whatever age they want.

    Amazing
     
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  50. Anonymous UOPlayer

    Anonymous UOPlayer Journeyman
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    lol.

    way smaller scale. not amazon cloud servers (third party vendor) but, presumably, privately-run servers, requiring special software to access. software you control. there's a program i don't think i'm allowed to name that is required both to play on and to run most private servers i'm aware of. less server security to worry about.

    all told: lots easier. Also I remember reading a long time ago that some early hacks exposed more of the early code then should've been exposed-not sure if true or not but explains a lot.

    finally: I was clear that anything is possible given unlimited time and resources. but that's true of anything so.....

    so try again, but on second thought, no, don't bother.