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Leveling MUST Die in MMOs

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Teribithia00, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Teribithia00

    Teribithia00 Guest

    The leveling system that every single MMO since UO has relied on is simply awful and a true disaster for the genre. Every character ultimately ends up falling in to a handful of categories. Moreover, the game becomes essentially linear - as once you reach a certain level you move to a new zone, etc. Basically once you do x then you do y then you do z. A true MMO should *feel* like a virtual world with thousands of possibilities. Skills and other systems can do that... level systems can't.

    I really want to implore developers to take a risk and rip the level system out of their upcoming games.
  2. Locke

    Locke Guest

    I know what you mean, but most of what you've said can be applied to UO as well. As your character grows it's natural to go to new areas and find more challenging pray; sticking to one area would get boring quick. After all training on something like a buzzard can only be so much fun. When you first start out you might be using a sling shot, when you're well equipped you might sail up with a cannon; either way it could only be so much fun.

    The cannon could be fun I bet and probably difficult to aim. Imagine trying to take out a troll and ending up leaving a whole fern community devastated! In an advanced game you'd probably end up with a wanted poster for that. Not that anything could come from it. Even if the tree huggers managed to catch you, all you'd have to say is one of them butchered a tree for the poster and you'd start a mutiny!
  3. al-Maroc

    al-Maroc Guest

    you might find this gaming movement interesting, then:


    We read her whitepaper (http://www.emergenceingames.com/web_images/Sweetser_IJIGS.pdf) Scripting verses Emergence for my game design class. You can say, in a sense, leveling is a form of scripting.

    I actually did not agree with her white paper because much of her issues in scripting exist with emergence and vice versa, but that's a whole different story I don't have the energy to get into :D
  4. PlayerSkillFTW

    PlayerSkillFTW Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Darkfall will break the trend. Darkfall is an upcoming MMORPG that is very similar to oldschool UO. No Levels/No Classes, 100% Skill Based, No Safe Zones, etc. Darkfall also has several innovative things like true Real Time Combat (Think Oblivion style), Real World Physics (No walking right through people, although you can push them, plus you can do more damage with a strike by hitting an opponent with your' weapon while falling), Advanced NPC AI, etc. Darkfall won't be for everyone though because of the no Safe Zones, if you can't take getting killed by another player, then don't play Darkfall.
  5. Devilengine

    Devilengine Guest

    Eve does not have a leveling system. Skills levels yes... character levels.. no...
  6. Lairkingo

    Lairkingo Guest

    That's true DE but because there's an absolute cap on how quickly you can gain a given skill.... there's in effect a fixed amount of time you need to play the game before gaining certain skills. Essentially a level system.
  7. Yep. Biggest reason I've stuck with UO for so long.

    I played a couple level-based games for awhile and absolutely despised the system.
  8. Lairkingo

    Lairkingo Guest

    Yep. Every level based game has been garbage. WoW, AoC, EQ, EQ2, etc.
  9. Dol'Gorath

    Dol'Gorath Grand Inquisitor
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Mar 18, 2003
    Likes Received:
    You realize UO's skill based system works the same right? Skills are difficulty based so you need to train on monsters in a certain skill range [aka: level] to gain skills. Before Golems, the typical trend of character progression was animals, then low level monsters [Despise/Wrong], then mid level monsters [Covetous etc] And then finally high end [Destard, low Covetous, etc]

    All UO has is that it's more varied of where you can skill up. UO's skills are essentially levels but instead of one set level you have 7 or 6 depending on if you scroll or not.

    Levels in WoW give you stats and HP/MP, that's about it, there are also still individual skills to work.

    In essence UO is no different anymore from the other games. Even with it's pitiful excuse for high end content [lol], it still requires high end gear and such to not die painfully and quickly.
  10. deadplayer

    deadplayer Guest

    The leveling system is necessary, which will helps you know your character and skills. But the endless leveling is boring, i dislike!
  11. DebiHIS

    DebiHIS Guest

    I know I hate the grind, is why I have quit playing some of the games. UO wasn't as bad, but takes forever, unless you afk level, lol.
  12. UO *used* to be a real no-level game. You could 7x GM your character in a month or two... then the game really began. In a sense, while most games are all about getting to the high level content... UO was all high level content.
  13. DebiHIS

    DebiHIS Guest

    And what happened to the power hour? On Last Chaos they have regularly scheduled double exp/sp days/times, that really helps a lot. I heard that used to happen on UO? *before my time*
  14. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle Guest

    The levelling system is also neccessary to stretch out the total viable playing-time for the MMO publisher to maintain a steady income to support ongoing costs to run the back end servers. Games with massive player inventories and housing like UO have much greater demands on storage systems. Lightweight inventory games such as Guildwars can get by with minimal server-side storage management requirements and can dispense with subscriptions.
  15. Is the fee really that much of a burden though? The $15/month for an MMO is equivalent to a movie ticket or two. I'd rather the games be good than free.
  16. Bluebottle

    Bluebottle Guest

    Not really though folks then feel obliged to play to get their money's worth. I've also heard that it also depends if you have a significant other asking what that odd monthly $15 charges here and there are for :p ? I like the lifetime subscription approach myself ... but then again, you get some of the scares like Flagship looking like they were going to simply dump Hellgate London :(
  17. Surindur

    Surindur Guest

    I believe what the OP is saying here is that the basic leveling system restricts your characters to a certain class, and your choices are then limited to a skill-set for that particular class. But the skill system such as UO has allows you to break the class boundries and acquire skills based on your preferences. The only limitations are the number of points you can invest in those skills.

    I'm sure the reason most games went with the leveling system was that it made balancing issues much simpler to deal with. Which IMO doesn't really improve game play, it just makes the Devs job a little easier. Personally I'd rather their jobs were a little harder and my games a little more interesting.
  18. Chiaki

    Chiaki Guest

    Agreed. People who didn't play UO pre-Pub 16 is just not going to get this, though. It's a shame.
  19. dirran

    dirran Guest

    Something is right... but if leveling system disappear in game, then what kind of fun we can enjoy?:sleep2:
  20. Fojos

    Fojos Guest

    How is endless leveling different to endless skilling?
  21. Aston

    Aston Guest

    If Darkfall ever comes out, this might reverse the trend that started with the creation of Everquest.
  22. Aran

    Aran Always Present
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend -A-

    Apr 1, 2000
    Likes Received:
    This is truly a level one complaint.
  23. emist

    emist Guest

    Hmm, I actually like the leveling trend though it is sorta boring but it does create a challenge forthose who have the time. The only game I've played that has had a lot of features is Runescape.
  24. eemoor03

    eemoor03 Guest

    I know what you mean. I've had a UO account since 1998 and I really only hold onto it for very strong (used to play with deceased spouse) sentimental reasons. It's not the same game anymore. In a bad way.
  25. Kormorant

    Kormorant Guest

    Play Eve if you don't like levelling. Just skills.

    Levelling is dull and boring.

    A good mmog would allow a group of new characters to be on par with an experienced one (pvp... pure pve sucks as well...hello... interaction?)
  26. Robthemilt

    Robthemilt Guest

    I think that if you are working to level you make it worse than it is. I rarely AFK train. And after having my account for probably a year and a half i only have 1 complete char, who is subject to change. NOT because I dont put the time in, but because im constantly changing templates, and gear. Which changes my tactics and abilities, which changes the game, which makes it NOT boring.
    Skill gaining is different from Level gaining. In that you can interchange your skills on a whim and not lose anything. There is no exp penalty, no reason that i cant decide, "Damn my dexxer sucks without healing" and have to go out and re level to get it back. When i change from swords to archery or from one handed weaps to axes I dont lose levels, hp, or a defined area of proficiency, without gaining the advantages that I was looking for.
    I agree WOW ends up more linear than they'd like to admit, but the skill gain system works.