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My failed attempt at the holy grail price guide for weapons..

Discussion in 'UO Craftsman' started by FrankBama, Mar 18, 2008.

  1. FrankBama

    FrankBama Guest

    So I decided to figure out what is the best weapon and set out to create the holy grail of weapon price guides. Needless to say my head is still spinning with numbers but the conclusion I came to is probably so obvious and simple yet dumbfounded me. It can't be done. Why? Because each weapons is so character specfic, template specfic, other equipment specific, etc. Throw in special moves and such and the complications get even more so. Finally the number of shear possibilities of properties just makes even a mathmatician dizzy.

    I searched all the boards looking for what each template considered the best weapons. I found that the number one thing people looked for was speed...but I also found except for a few people...no one really understood speed. I mean the UO moderator Setnaffa is seen most everywhere explaining to people the formula time after time.

    I started my journey by following a simple assumption...fast weapons are best.
    After some research, and a quick realization that the weapon speeds on Stratics are wrong, I grabbed the current weapons speeds from the UO playguide and pulled up ye olde trusty excel and started to work on my formulas.
    I did tons of formulas for weapons speed...based on different staminas and different SSI's etc. I had found some of what I thought I was looking for...a kryss, a dagger, and a shortspear all with at least 20% SSI (this assumes no other ssi bonuses from other equipment) can let you go down to 60 stamina and keep the fastest rate swing. So they must be priced the best right...I can sort from there and figure out which is the best weapon to try to make or sell or whatever...but wait what if the other weapons had the modifier stamina leech on them...wouldn't that ensure they keep their stamina high enough to keep their max rate swing. So all of a sudden Stamina Leech just hit a boost in my future price guide...in fact stamina leech could be used in place of SSI on a high stamina character. (Should have been my first clue as to look at stats but my revelations brought me elsewhere.) Also my fast weapons list expanded.
    SO through all that, I end up with a couple conclusions,
    SSI is important on a weapon, and an easy way to qualify this is max speed maintained factor for all weapons I price out. So I believe I will list out weapons for sale as
    ex. Short Spear SSI 20% Max Weap Speed 1.25 Seconds maintained at 60 stamina or above.
    Also concluded stamina leech is important as it keeps your weapon swinging at the highest rate and should add to the price significantly.

    Wow I thought I was on the right track till it occured to me that I really should be dealing DPS (Damage per second). Back to the charts and the formulas on my sheet. Here's where I realized how much a template choice in stats and skills effect what type of weapon you should choose. One should I consider DPS at 0 stamina, 30, 60, 90, 120? Do I assume GM in Tactics, Anatomy, Lumberjacking? Assume Legendary? Do I do DPS at 100 Strength? Higher? Lower?
    Assuming all that stuff (GM in all skills, 100 Strength 90 Stamina with a 35% DI Weapon and no other modifiers)...I get my average DPS and sort then I try all the other combinations (different stats and skills) and I quickly realized my list order changes as my stats and stuff change. My fencer would be better off using a kryss at 90 stamina and a warfork if he is almost out of stamina...and again this assumes he has no other damage increase modifiers..of course that is if he is out of total refresh potions...and if I throw in another 50% DI because of jewelry or so the chart changes once again. If I take all the skills off of GM and down to 75 the chart moves again....AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH
    So I conclude that to judge a weapon on DPS I have to assume the maximum skills (or set them all at GM or some other set point) in all categories except stamina and show where the maximum Average DPS drops off at what stamina (which should equal to when the swing speed decreases)... but to do so other players will have to find out their own DPS for their character before they buy on my recommendation. Because if I list a DPS and their character stats and skills are different...they will have a different dps and it could be so drastic that it meant they should have bought a totally different weapon.

    Now I have my chart to import my weapons to see if I can find a price guide
    ex. Short Spear SSI 20% 35% DI--Avg Damage Per Second (at GM Levels) 18.6 Max Weap Speed 1.25 Seconds maintained at 60 stamina or above.

    I now look at my weapons in my chart and start to assign pricing before I consider other factors. I start off with a fairly linear price sheet and figure I can add steps later.
    I now start considering other factors...
    Stamina Leech I already consider a major factor...
    remembering my research through boards...mana leech is a major factor...
    Oh my I forgot to consider special moves (head starts spinning)...if I can leech a ton of mana off something and constantly use a special move shouldn't that be added into the DPS (dizziness still coming)...what about bleed attack oh yeah should that be added into the DPS possibility...oops got to seperate one handed vs two handed for play styles (why are my words starting to appear jumbled)...hey this pitchfork is a better dps than this spear (eyes pop)...no one buys pitchforks...maybe they should (hmm realization not logical to my mind)...oh my this one has hit lightning...should that be added to DPS assuming it hits? Maybe I should not do avg DPS but minimum and maximum DPS and just add the lightning to the Maximum side...Oh boy HCI that DPS is only good assuming you hit everytime...(look at all the pretty colors on my screen)...hit dispel...what the hell does that do?....oh life leech...yeah that is nice how does that factor in...(should I be swaying like this)...oh this one is UBWS...4 modifiers...3 modifiers but a higher DPS ...47% hit stamina leech but with a low dps that means only 4 stamina back per second...is that enough to keep me at high stamina.

    After picking myself off the floor where I was doing my best rainman impersonation and saying stuff like HCI definitely HCI lots of HCI...
    I came to realize I am not going to be the one that comes up with this price guide.

    I thought it was interesting attempt and still have all my work if someone is interested in taking up the quest (or in casemy ego gets the better of me and I try again)

    Each weapon completely has its own merits and depends on so many other factors not least of which are stats, other equipment, play style, special moves etc...that all weapons have their place....and what is good for one character is not good for others. It might have been one of the more brilliant designs of the game that weapon choice be so character and play style specific. The days of this is the best bow or this is the best swords no matter what are long gone. Someone should put a serious and comprehensive DPS calculator (remember stratics numbers are wrong on theirs) that has all the factors and let people use it to find the best weapon for them.
  2. You seem to have over-thought the whole process. You should have first created two categories:

    PVP and PVM

    Break each of those down by template.

    Next see which weapon works best for each template, and compare and contrast. You'll soon notice a number of weapons having found themselves into many of the templates. This is true especially for PVP; to save time you could simply go to Fel and look at what weapons the best players are using.

    So in general, what most PVM players like DPS, but don't waste your time thinking about suits and skills, just look at basic DPS, then factor in mods on the weapon itself (weapon specials and handedness are factors as well):

    - DMI 40+ is a given on practically every runic weapon now.
    - Leeches, the more the better, but ML and SL are preferred.
    - SSI will improve DPS, making a useless weapon useful (IE Ornate Axe).
    - Lowers; Defense is more sought after than Attack.
    - Slayer; obviously has to be useful, like Demon!
    - HCI/DCI; In pvm most template/equip normally gear towards DCI, and thus it wont come from their wep, so HCI is better to have imo.

    Those mods above, when put together, will create a very expensive weapon.
    The more the better!

    - SSI is paramount, DPS is the name of the game in PVP.
    - Thus DMI is a given
    - Weapon Specials are now a priority, someone with poisoning will obviously want a weapon with poisoning. Also note that some specials - ie: whirlwind attack - while useful in PVM, are rendered useless in PVP.
    - Handedness is more important: 1 handed weps are required by pot-heads. In fact most PVP weapons are one handed; people like to use shields! Samurai are the only templates running around using 2-handed weapons - usually an ornate axe, short spear, spear, and ya people use pitchforks (for dismount).
    - Hit Spells; necessary, A lot of people like hit lightning, but Arrow and Fireball are more useful imo because of the delay, and thus extra interrupt. Harm is the least liked since it does damage to phy and most people have that covered. OK dispel is least liked and it's actually useless in pvp.
    - Lowers; Defense once again more useful. DPS is a factor in why; you want to do as much damage as possible to your opponent, if you're worrying about being hit (HLA) then you're not going to kill anything, thus HLD is more useful to those looking to get kills.
    - FC is helpful, but most players who need it get it from equipment.
    - SC no FC penalty is useful.
    - HCI/DCI depends on the equipment of a player. If they picked ring of the vile and leggings of bane, they may prefer a weapon that has DCI over HCI. Though I think for the most part, players do not specifically buy weapons for HCI/DCI mods.
    - Leeches; all utterly useless in pvp since the nerf awhile back.
    - UBWS; I make maces and diamond maces for the sole purpose of getting good mods + ubws so I can use these one handed monsters for conc blow. But overall it doesnt really add to the value.

    All in all, a top end PVP weapon will have a high basic DPS output, be one handed, with 2 high quality special attacks (ie: warfork - bleed and disarm).
    And the mods MUST have a hit spell, dmi, ssi, and hld.

    As far as how much a weapon would sell for with all the best mods at max intensity, it would be billions of gold to the right PVPer, or worthless to a PVMer. So find your market, and target them!