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Necro warrior questions

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by Johnny Powerhead, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. I am returning to UO after a few years off. I've been reading the forums and apparently at some point there were changes made that for some reason requires all melee fighters to have necro so they can be in wraith or vamp form. I've been trying to find answers here and in the Spellcasters forum and there is no good explanation for why this is so. Can somebody explain it to me?

    Spirit Speak is useless for healing, even at GM the most you can heal is 5 hp off yourself or 6 off corpses (according to the formulas, SS/100 + 4 = 5 at GM, 5.2 hp at 120 SS). When the average enemy hits you for like 30-50 hp damage, you would need thousands of mana to keep up.

    Wraith form - this increases physical resist by 10 and decreases the others by a total of 40 and allows mana leech. This seems like a huge expense armor wise for mana leech. I have a bow on a GM archer with 40% mana leech among other things and I have around 40 mana which is gone in like 4 seconds and no matter how many times I hit, I never get like a boost of mana that got leeched. I don't even get how mana leech is going to work. But it doesn't seem worth it for a net loss of 30 resists.

    Vampire form - 20% life leech but a loss of 25 fire resist. Again seems a huge expense for something you can get free with weapons. The same bow that I have 40 mana leech I have 40 life leech and again, it doesn't do squat. I never "leech" the enemy's life and get a boost of free hp.

    What am I missing. Is it just needed because in wraith form you don't lose all your stamina when you bump into people in Felucca?

    Please explain what's going on. I was going to make a Samurai Parry Resist Swords guy but if I have to add necro and ss and remove healing and anatomy, I will probably just forget about it and focus on my ABC archer. I just wanted to give bushido a try with a guy who actually uses parry and all the extras.

    One more thing. I notice a lot of template advice omits Resist. I tried playing without Resist and it sucks against any spellcaster. Poison, para, poison, para, flamestrike, dead every freakin time. It's not even fun. Anyway, can someone tell me how important is Tactics? I'm trying to understand the formulas. At 0 Tactics, do you calculate 50% of base damage, THEN add the mods for Anatomy, Strength, and Weapons? So without tactics you are basically cuting all your damage in half? In short, is tactics really crucial? Also, is tactics only for damage now. I thought it was also for chance to hit.

    Any help with any of the above would be greatly appreciated.
  2. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The why: Forcing people to keep necromancy to retain their form prevents entering vampire or wraith form using items for skill and then taking them off to reap all the benifits without the skill cost.

    Spirit speak: The formula you found is wrong. I'll not look up the right one, but SS is pretty effective

    Mana leech and life leech from forms: Weapons leeching works differently then form leeching. Leeching mana using wraith form (make sure you have high SS) or life from vampire form (no SS needed) is 100% effective in leeching, while your 40% leech is only 40% effective, and doesn't leech the maximum amount every time. (again, I'm too lazy to look up the formula today). To put it short, the leeches from necromancy forms are extremely effective.

    Explain what's going on: You don't HAVE to do anything. You can keep healing and anatomy and do well in any spawn in game, but the high end spawns will be a little bit more difficult to do alone. I wouldn't take my samurai (no necromancy) to fight peerless or Doom alone, but I have done it on a necro-warrior. And if you work with a partner, then nothing is impossible for a warrior.

    Tactics: Yes, tactics is only for damage output and the ability to use weapons specials, which is why you'll see a lot of templates with 70 or 90 tactics. That's the minimum for using the primary and secondary weapons specials.

    If you like resist, keep resist. It takes practice to be able to run the no-resist templates. In either case, carry a lot level trapped box with you and plenty of cure potions and orange petals and you'll do fine without it.
  3. Rampant complaining by the Nerf of the Month Club in UHall about maintaining Vamp form after the skill items were removed caused the Devs to change forms so that you pop out of form if you no longer have the skill to maintain it.

    As Farsight mentioned, this formula is incorrect. I've used SS on my Vamp warrior and it's very effective, although interruptable. Another thing to keep in mind is that if there are corpses around you, there is no mana cost to you.

    Wraith form/SS is used in conjunction with Curse Weapon, which is a massive life leech. With the mana leech from Wraith form and from a good ML weapon you consistently have mana to recast this spell. The reduction in armor resists is negligible when compared to the amount of life you leech and the additional mana leech.

    Mana Leech on bows was nerfed so that you're only leeching about half of what it used to be. In order to see the large amounts of mana being leeched you have to be hitting in the 200 range. Other than that, it was also changed so that you can leech as little as 0, even with a 40% mana leech.

    Yeah, it sucks, but you learn to live with it. I added additional MR to my archer's suit, and also added large amounts of mana increase. In comparison, my archer has a mana pool of 94 while my warrior only has 45, yet my warrior has more mana consistently than my archer does.

    Go figure.

    Again, leeches for bows was nerfed. The Vamp form leech is a guaranteed leech per hit, and at max swing speed that turns out to be quite a lot, especially when you've got something honored and have EoO on it, and are hitting in the 100+ range. The -25 fire resist is a hit, but it isn't that hard to put together a suit to compensate for it. Overall, once I'd tried Vamp form on my warrior, I never looked back. I can solo things with him now that I never would have thought of even thinking about before I made the switch.

    I don't PvP so I can't answer this question, but I do know that Wraith form coupled with Curse Weapon is deadly to Dreadhorn. Not only are you never out of mana, but the 75% life leech per hit is unbeatable. When you're hitting for 200 damage, you stay at max health.

    If you have the gold to spare I'd suggest you do what I did. I have GM Anatomy, GM SS, and GM Resist on soulstones. I swap out as needed depending on what I'm fighting. If I'm planning on Wraith form, I pop the SS on and I'm on my way. If I'm fighting a non magic casting creature that Vamp form is sufficient for (and it is for most things), then I pop on the Anatomy for the extra damage. High magic casters like a Balron, or even Doom (especially Abyssmal Horrors) I definitely go with Resist.

    I covered this above, but I will add that if you're fighting a Necro casting creature, you swap to the Resist. Vamp form is immune to all but level 5 and higher poison, which can easily be managed with Cleanse by Fire, especially when you have Protection cast and can cast it without interruption. While in Wraith form, I'd strongly suggest you have protection cast so Curse Weapon doesn't get interrupted. That can mean insta death if it does depending on what you're fighting. Also, you can't drink a Greater Cure potion while in Vamp form due to the garlic damage they added to Vamps. Simply put, any spell or potion that has garlic as a reagent will cause damage to anyone in Vamp form. Greater Cure pots won't even allow you to drink them, although any spell or potion that doesn't have enough garlic to cause death will allow you to cast/drink it, but you will take damage from it.

    Tactics is important to a point. As Farsight mentioned, you have to have at least 90 Tactics to use both weapon specials. At GM Tactics, you get a 150% damage increase to your base damage. Tactics, Anatomy, and Str are added together to form your base damage, then item and spell bonuses are figured from that, up to 300% damage increase. One thing to note is that if any part of the 300% puts you over that, you lose all of that particular bonus. So if you have 100% DI from items, have EoO cast, are using a Slayer, and also have your opponent Honored and are gaining levels of Perfection and the damage increase from that, you'll end up losing all of one of the damage increases. This also figures in to hit spell effects on weapons.

    One thing to note is that in today's UO, you can no longer compare Archers and Meleer's, as the way leeches are figured, and how you need to adjust your gear to compensate have changed dramatically, so that now you need to have your focus on completely different aspects of your stats, along with necessary properties on weapons and gear.

    Hope this helps.
  4. Thanks for the answers guys this has been helpful.

    Connor you mentioned having Protection cast. This is a magery spell. So are you suggesting I need to add Magery to my template too? I don't know where I would find the skill points for it.

    Here's the template I'm thinking about:

    Swords 120
    Bushido 110
    Parry 110
    Necro 100
    SS 100
    Tactics or Resist 100
    Chiv 70

    I have only 700 skill points. How long does it take to get 720? Also I don't have a soulstone hopefuly they give me one when Stygian comes out?

    I had all this stuff with a 5 year old account a few years ago but sold it and quit for awhile. Now I'm back to square one and it sucks. I shelled out the 9.99 for a charger cause I couldn't ride horses for 5 years but otherwise I plan to do the rest the hard way.

    I guess the big problem with the above is, no tactics or anatomy would mean no damage. I would be hard to kill but I wouldn't have much offense.
  5. You can cast Protection with 0 Magery by using a scroll. You'll take a small amount of damage since it's a garlic based spell, but it's not that much.

    I would strongly suggest taking Parry to 120 and dropping Chiv by 5 and Tactics/Resist by 5 to get the extra points. It does make quite a bit of difference in how many hits you block, and NOT getting hit is key to the Sampire/Wammy templates. You'l also want to max out on both HCI and DCI. Hitting and NOT getting hit are the 2 most important aspects of either of these templates.

    You get 5 additional points added to your skill point total each year your account is active, so at year 4 you're at the 720 cap.

    For soulstones, you can get 1 as a vet reward once your account has been active for 1 full year, and you can also buy them from players. Player sold full soulstones run from 7-9mil. You can get by in the short term by buying soulstone fragments from other players which run from 450k-600k (I wouldn't pay more than 600k. Anything higher than that is a ripoff).

    You can actually start riding ethy's at year 3. You have the choice of horse, llama or ostard at that point. I'd suggest you use your vet rewards for soulstones though, and buy any other vet rewards you want to have simply because soulstones are the most valuable vet reward there is.

    You'd be surprised at how much damage you can do with only 95 Tactics. That's pretty much what I run with most of the time (without Anatomy) and I do quite well without it.
  6. Well I meant 0 tactics and 0 anatomy if I chose to have resist. So I guess I have to dump resist and use tactics instead. But on that subject - why would you have 95 tactics? You get a 5% bonus added at 100, so that last 5 points in worth twice as much.

    Procedural question - if I have a 2 handed weapon I can eat food like apples and petals, but not potions - is this correct?
  7. Kellgory

    Kellgory Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    May 14, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Yes, you can eat while carring a two handed weap but you can't chug a pot unless your an archer with a balanced bow. As far as how much damage diffence you will have with 100 tactics compared to 95, you might go to the test shard and test it out on what your planning on fighting.
  8. 5% Luck

    5% Luck Guest

    Now heres the thing.

    If you run vamp for the life lech you wont need SS.

    If your human and run wraith for the mana leech you dont need necro(JoaT 50% chance to cast Wraith)(needs test)

    If you plan on casting curses then you need both and only then.

    Thats your GM resist!
  9. Diomedes Artega

    Diomedes Artega Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran

    Oct 9, 2008
    Likes Received:
  10. I put the 5 points from Tactics into Chiv to get me up to 65. I found at 60 that Cons Wep failed WAY too often, not to mention Divine Fury. The difference in damage in a fight when you compare NOT having Cons Wep up for 3-4 swings average versus the 5% of base damage pretty much balance out in the long run, if not actually tip in favor of the Chiv boost depending on what I'm fighting. I didn't want to take the 5 points from any other skill, so it seemed a fair trade off to me.
  11. I don't think you would need to know your fame. If the maximum damage healed at GM is 5 hp (100/20) then the minimum would NEVER come into play. As long as your fame is at least 2000, then you would get 5 hp every time.

    But someone else said that formula is not correct. I tried it a little on TC and I was getting way more than 5 points from myself or from corpses so no way that formula is right. Could it maybe be SSx10/20?
  12. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    It appears, there is some uncertainty about the amount of hitpoints healed by SS. So to satisfy my own curiosity and perhaps be of some help to my fellow necromancers I went to TC and did some spirit speaking.

    The suggestions in this thread for a formula are:
    Maximum damage healed = (Spirit Speak / 100) + 4
    Minimum damage healed = (Maximum damage healed / 2) + 1

    Now this is clearly way off as it would give a max heal at GM of 5 points.... Perhaps that's (spirit speak/10) instead? Or the skill should be entered as '1000' like we see on TC, where decimals don't exist. That would give a max at GM of 14. This also is too little. I beleive we can dismiss that one without looking too much into the minimum heal.

    Another one is suggested:
    Max heal = SSx10/20
    Which is the same as = SS/2
    (only nicer to look at :p )

    This formula does not describe my observations on TC very well either.

    So here's what I found. :scholar:
    I'll present you with the range of data from observations on TC. They are all based on draining your own mana to heal. No corpses involved.
    The sample size is 10 heals for each level of SS:

    Spirit speak 10: Healed hitpoints between 3 and 6
    Spirit speak 20: Healed hitpoints between 6 and 9
    Spirit speak 40: Healed hitpoints between 10 and 12
    Spirit speak 60: Healed hitpoints between 15 and 19
    Spirit speak 80: Healed hitpoints between 20 and 23

    - and then TC went down for maintenance.... So I'll follow up with the higher levels.

    However these data was enough for me to suggest these formulas.

    Minimum damage healed: Spirit speak/4

    Maximum damage healed: (Spirit speak/4)+4

    That predicts a minimum heal at GM level of 25 and maximum 29.
    At legendary it becomes 30 and 34. (Unless there is some bonus for being at 120)

    As my sample size is somewhat small, I may not have included the complete range of possible hitpoints restored in this little test. However the numbers fit nicely. We'll see about the higher levels of SS when TC comes back on.

    And here we go:

    Spirit speak 100: Healed hitpoints between 25 and 29
    Spirit speak 120: Healed hitpoints between 30 and 34

    Now ain't that pretty? :-D
    My formula is based on the numbers from SS at 40 and 60. Those formulas match observations at levels of 10, 20, 80, 100 and 120 spirit speak.

    Now - all this is fairly academic as I guess most of us BY FAR prefer to drain the sweet life force from still warm corpses :-D However it does tell us that healing by channeling your own mana is a reliable way of healing. It also tells us that the difference between maximum and minimum is fairly small and far from being (max/2)+1 as suggested by formula A). Which is good!

    Now - I guess I ought to go and check out the drainage formula...
  13. First off, I don't believe JoaT is true at all. There is no skill that I have found where having 0 is equivalent to an elf having 20 skill points. On a newbie (human) fighter with 14 fencing his fencing was far more effective than his swordsmanship which was under 3.

    But, assuming JoaT is real...

    I tried to cast Wraith Form with my fighter who is human and has 0 necro. I tried more than 20 times and did not become a wraith. With an elf on TC I set the necro skill to 20 and tried about 20 times and did not become a wraith. I think at the minimum skill you don't get 50% chance of success.

    I looked all over Stratics and UOGuide and could not find any explanation for how much chance of success you have at various percents. Anyone have a link?
  14. Thanks for doing all this testing it is very helpful. I had a feeling those formulas couldn't be right.
  15. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    You're welcome, glad you appreciate it! As I said I was curious myself.

    Now. Here is first part of the follow up. That is, healing with spirit speak by draining life force from a corpse. The problem here is that I'm not sure that the fame points mentioned earlier in this thread is used directly for calculating the fame-based heal. And of course I'm also not able to see my character's exact fame. So I decided to just go by the titles and see if I could figure something out.

    Starting with an awful lot of deathrobes and wrestling a red healer (so he wouldn't be grumpy about ressing me imediately), I went to virtually no fame. I got fame from killing small birds, which is the lowest you can go I think. Strangely I kept loosing a little fame when I died (and that happened around 40-50 times, on a character with no significant kills). Anyways... the fame turned out to be less of a problem than I thought.

    Now - I'm somebody is curious I'll be glad to post the data, but otherwise I'll just skip it :sleep2: and go to what I found.

    At zero (or very little) fame, the amount of healed hitpoints from draining at spirit speak of 40, 60 and 120 corresponds to the numbers I get when healing with my own mana. So based on this, the minimum healing you get from draining is equal to that you get when using mana, when your fame is very low.

    At the title of 'notable' (first fame step, neutral karma), I only tested for spirit speak level of 60 and 120. Thinking that if a pattern emerged I would try to predict the values at other skill levels - and then check to see if I would be right. As it turned out the pattern was indistinguishable from the results at zero fame.

    At the title of 'prominent' (second fame level, neutral karma) I also limited my testing to 60 and 120 skill. The results I got were not distinguishable from anything I had done previously...

    That's it for now.
    My conclusion so far is that the amount of healed hitpoints from draining depends solely on your skill. Furthermore it can be predicted using the formulas in my first post. The only difference being, that when draining - as we all know - it comes free of charge, mana-wise.

    As far as I can see, there are two weak spots in my testing. One is a roof-effect of skill. That is, perhaps at lower than 60 skill the calculation begins to rely on fame. I will test this when fame is higher.
    The other is that my fame might not be high enough to make a difference.
    Somehow I have a feeling this is not the case. It's all down to two formulas determining the minimum and the maximum, and a random roll. All drainage does is give healing for free.

    Hopefully I'll feel inspired to conclude this.

    Anyone with different experiences please post.
  16. Boogieman

    Boogieman Guest

    So here is the last part of this spirit speak investigation.

    I got to 'renowned' - fame step 3 and tested healing by draining at spirit speak levels of 40, 60 and 120. The results are not different from those of equivalent levels of SS at lesser fame.

    Spend some more time bugging the deamons and got to Lord. I'm afraid there is no surprise here either. The amounts of healed hitpoints were no different from the other levels of fame.

    Then - just for the heck of it - I cast wither for 20 minutes and went to 'dread' - lowest karma level. Thinking that maaaaaybe karma has an effect, SS being strongly connected to various necro spells.
    Drained some more corpses at 120 necro, 120 SS, max fame, lowest karma. The results were no different from other results at the same level of SS.

    So that's it guys and gals - it all boils down to the above mentioned formulas. Fame has no effect, karma has no effect. Skill is the single determining factor. And by the way some people might prefer to express the formulas as:

    Minimum damage healed = SS/40

    Maximum damage healed = (SS/40)+4

    Writing the skill without decimals - as you do on Test Shard. So 80.6 skill becomes '806'.
  17. Okay I went to TC, loaded up my guy with uber armors and a decent sword, went into the first level of Doom. I had the following skills:

    Swords 120
    Bushido 110
    Parry 110
    Necro 100
    Tactics 100
    Chiv 60
    Anatomy 100

    I was in Vamp form but still had fire resist at 70. I ran in there hacking away at things, then after about 60 seconds something walked up and poisoned me. I had no healing and couldn't use a cure pot because of vamp form. So I recalled back to the bank and set my healing to 100 and necro to 0 and cured myself with a few hp left.

    So my question is, without healing how are you guys curing yourselves? Orange Petals would not have helped because Vamp form is equivalent. Are you casting vamp again then chugging a pot? Is there time for this? I don't think you could script it because vamp fails too often at 100 necro. What am I missing?
  18. Trinsie

    Trinsie Guest

    I am not a melee fighter who uses vamp form. Does the leeching still give health if you are poisoned? If so I provide you with this answer to your question. Fight through the poison if you are leeching faster than it deals damage.

    Sorry I am not an expert on melee so that is my nonexperienced guess.
  19. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Trinsie's nonexperienced guess is exactly right. If you aren't missing much, then you can simply keep fighting, keep draining and ignore the poison until you have time to cure it.

    Otherwise you need to use chivalry for curing.
  20. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    So long as you have high karma 60 chiv will cure even the deadliest of poisons (altho not always first time).

    that is the biggest flaw i see in this temp is that your using to opposing skills (mainly from a RP side) a holy paladin using the forces of darkness!!! also both the skills are maximised on the amount of karma pally good necro evil...the higher your karma the more hp u can heal and higher poison you can cure with chiv.

    the lower your karma the more effective your leeches, summons (try vamp bat for additional LL, wisp for MR, death adder for poison strikes) and curses. low karma means you can kill yourself using chiv cure tho. (seriously i tried it!!!)
  21. I cast Protection on my Sampire so he can cast Cleanse by Fire without being interrupted so I can continue swinging and leeching life. It's all dependant on the situation though. I may just keep swinging and ignore the poison. You can normally leech enough life to keep yourself alive until you get done killing whatever it is you're fighting.
  22. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    This ^

    All of my healing is done via life leech and confidence while bashing mobs.
  23. Is this correct? You need low karma to use life leech? How much difference does karma make? I think if you lose a little karma to cast vamp, then gain loads of karma killing things while in vamp form, you are soon glorious lord. Does this harm your life leech?

    By the way I forgot all about the chiv cure. Problem with test center is I don't always take the time to line up all my spells and make all the necessary macros.
  24. Salty Pete

    Salty Pete Guest

    My necro/samurai is Glorious. I get plenty of health from leech.
  25. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    The answer is to include midnight bracers, and high skill inc/dci jewels on your suit! Mine has.. +65 total skill points (you can easily do better), and I was able to fit 90 healing in, on top of the other sampire skills.
  26. How is that possible to add 65 skill points with jewels? That's 30-40 points per. Or is that on your entire suit? And if so, what are your resists?
  27. With his particular setup, he's using the skill points on the Midnight Bracers along with his jewels to reach that level.

    Aside from armor pieces, it's possible (but not very probable) to have 150 skill points on jewels alone. My Bard/Tamer's original setup had 820 skill points overall. Some of that was on a talisman and some on armor, with the rest on jewels that had 40+ skill points each on them. It's all a matter of being able to find the jewels that have that many points.

    Personally, I always suggest staying away from skill points on items, as you get stuck with those items and have very little freedom in adjusting your suit and template because of it. It takes a major overhaul of the entire character to make any changes. My personal setup allows me to do anything I want to with my character, up to and including swapping out multiple skills from soulstones because all of my skill points are on my character, and not on any items.
  28. RichDC

    RichDC Guest

    Befor the nerf you could use items to gm necro with only 25 show real:

    +20 Midnight Bracers (arms)
    +5 Talisman
    +30 Jewels
    +10 Necro Mark (head)
    +10 Ossian Grimoire (Book)