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Ninjitsu gains post 57.5?

Discussion in 'UO Warrior' started by [JD], Dec 14, 2009.

  1. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    The stickied guide for Ninjitsu is 2+ years old and out of date..

    Mirror image won't gain past 57.5.
    Whats the best way to gain ninjitsu, post 57.5?
    Is there a new skillgain guide somewhere? I went back 10 pages but didn't see anything.

  2. Farsight

    Farsight Crazed Zealot
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 12, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Shadowjump until you get enough skill from your skill and skill gain jewels to death strike.

    It's a little bit counter-intuitive to increase your skill by 30 points in order to get better gains, but for ninjitsu, it works.
  3. Cazzador

    Cazzador Guest

    Or do like I did use a ring/bracer combo with ninjitsu on it to get it high enough to cast other spells and work on them.
  4. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Ok thanks. I've been shadowjumping but even at 80 hiding and 70 stealth it seems unreliable and gains are hard. I tried focus attack but I'm an archer so I needed to stone off some pts so I could train up fencing. Again gains are slow.

    I'm building a stealth archer for PVP/PVM... was also wondering what's some good equipment to start with.

    And are there any good stealth archer templates which include ninjitsu/chiv? I know it wil be a tight template. Should I ditch anatomy/healing for chiv? Or is that a bad trade?

  5. Don't waste your time with a stealth archer for PvM. They're just not very effective.
  6. Aibal

    Aibal Slightly Crazed
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    May 14, 2008
    Likes Received:
    QFT. Occasionally someone has a stealther with 800'ish skill points that is a solid damage dealer, but for the most part, the weakness of the template is the inability to dish out a lot of damage quickly. You're basic sampy, abc archer, or pally is much more effective in PvM.
  7. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    I said PVP/PVM and I can stone skills off and put others on as needed...

    If I end up not liking stealth archer I'll stone the stealth off and start a thief and throw bush/chiv on.

    But I am interested in a stealthing archer with amounts of chiv and ninjitsu.

    So my questions:

    What is good starting stealther gear?
    What are good stealth archer templates?
    If I'm low on points would it be better to get rid of anatomy/healing or have them at lower levels so I can put Chiv on?

  8. Thobius

    Thobius Guest

    My own stealth archer has the following:

    120: Archery
    110: Ninjitsu
    100: Tactics, Anatomy, Hiding, Stealth
    90: Healing

    This template probably isn't the most efficient as stealth can be dropped as low as 80 if you dont want to rely on items and then use the additional points to boost Healing --> 100 and Anat --> 110 for better healing. Or Healing --> 100 and Ninjitsu --> 120. Alternatively you could use Shadow Dancer legs / burglars bandana etc to increase stealth and drop your real ability even lower. As it is I trained my stealth years ago (when it was a real pita to gain) and I'm pretty loathe to reduce it.

    Gearwise I try and run all 70s suit with as much Dex / Stam Increase / Mana Regen as possible. I typically carry a bow (for para shots), comp (for AI), x-bow (for mortal) & heavy x-bow (for dismount & moving shot). These have SSI, hit spell & mana leech where possible. I make sure to use enhanced bandies for improved healing and I use recall scrolls to get around. I also carry apples / petals / boxes to replace the missing resist.

    I'm not sure my tactics would be any use as I don't normally PvP alone (except for occassionally hunting the odd script miner or two). My brother also has a stealth / nox-dexxer / archer (depending on his mood) and we typically hunt together. Basically its a case of throwing everything you have a single isolated target. If they survive then its time to run and stealth away, wait for your mana to replenish and then repeat the whole process.

    The fights are usually pretty short (:heart:0 seconds). The whole build up to the fight is probably the most tense bit. However there is nothing quite as satisfying as stalking a target and then killing them with a well made plan before they even have opportunity to react, for this reason I absolutely adore my stealth-archer.
  9. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    PVP Stealth Archer

    thanks dude.

    i'm set on having an effective 120 archery/tactics for the most part. but some more questions if you don't mind?

    1. what hiding and stealth levels should i shoot for to be effective in pvp? i don't want to go to 120 if it's not necessary.

    2. i'm just now finding that bows have different abilities... but how do i shoot someone with a special shot to dismount, mortal strike, or para?

    3. how useful would small levels of bushido be on a stealth archer? i checked out lightning strike and it adds up to maximum of 45 Hit chance increase. didnt matter if I was wearing a 19 HCI ring or if I had no chance, it would always be 45. im not sure if thats worth the points when i can get almost as much from an item or two. what else in bushido would be good for a stealth archer? we can't parry so confidence is useless, right? and we can't stealth with a pet so the hiryu, while nice, is not useful to us.

    4. how useful would small amounts of chiv be to a stealth archer?

    5. what about out of the box thinking - spirit speak to heal instead of anatomy/healing? as a bonus it cures mortal strike. or also ive seen stealthers with maxed hp regen and no healing ability. they just run off restealth wait 10 sec to heal and then attack again.

    6. regarding ninjitsu, i've been told llama form is faster than the other stuff like ki-rin form and takes much less skill pts. would i be better off going with 70 natural ninja and then adding 10 or 20 more to make llama form reliable?

    thanks. just trying to determine the best direction to go...
  10. Hildebrand

    Hildebrand Certifiable
    Stratics Veteran Stratics Legend

    Oct 12, 2005
    Likes Received:
    Re: PVP Stealth Archer

    This is an interesting thread. I too have been mulling around with my human stealth ninja nox fencer (no tactics since i can use assasin spike specials - at the cost of DI) and I was "thinking" about adding archery. I'd like to hear more ideas.

    Here's my contribution:
    1. Fact is, 80 in stealth is all you need for 100% success stealth in mage armor/leather. I'm not sure what level is ideal. I'm at 110 (with Cloak of silence) and I still get revealed easily so not sure what's going on there. Elves reveal you more I think? Mobs spam reveal (ugg)

    2. To shoot someone with specials, you have to be 70 tactics for special move #1 (primary), and 90 tactics for special move #2 (secondary). Each bow has two kinds of specials that you toggle on, then it strikes, then toggles off. Those icons are found in your paperdoll (2D has a book looking thing, EC has a char abilities button).

    3. Not sure which level of bushido you would need. Maybe someone else can answer. What I do know is, that lightning strike gives 50% HCI, but you're capped at 45%. Plus if you're hit with Hit Lower Attack (-25%), and you were at 0.... now you're -25, BUT, toggling LS adds 50 so you net at +25 HCI on that one shot (per lightning strike shot if you get what I mean).
    Confidence has TWO effects. Confidence will work for the hitpoint boost regardless, but you do lose the parry effect of regens as you parry per hit. So not a total loss.
    I guess you 'could' summon a lesser hiryu as a surprise attack if you wanted to.
    But maybe we can hear others thoughts about bushido on stealther.

    4. Chiv for PvP most say 60 is all you need. For PvM you'd kinda want 80 so you don't pull your hair out failing EoO.

    5. Spirit speak is great on a necro. On stealther? Um, you still fizz if you get interupted and you won't heal too much if there's no corpse. (Heals 15hp at 110 SS). You would be better off casting remove curse (chiv) or eating apple or hide and time it out, I would say. Or, lately, in pvm, I hide and turn to dog to heal, then come back for my other black eye. :gee:

    6. llama and ki-rin run the same to me. All mounts are supposed to be same speed. But yes, ki-rin would cost more ninjitsu skill and you wouldn't want to fail at a critical moment.
  11. Thobius

    Thobius Guest

    Re: PVP Stealth Archer

    I'll do my utmost to answer your questions but I'll confess that I'm not the greatest PvPer and someone like Lynk might be able to offer more accurate information.

    Nonetheless lets begin.

    1. I regularly see fellow stealthers with 100 Hiding & 80 Stealth. With GM skill you'll never fail hiding and 80 stealth means you'll never fail stealth whilst wearing medable armour i.e. leather (note: not studded) & armour with the mage armour property.

    120 stealth is not necessary for PvP. The differences between GM & legendary stealth are: (1) the amount of steps that you'll have to take before passing another stealth check (iirc it's [email protected] 80, 20 @ GM & 24 @ Legendary) and (2) you'll be more easily passively revealed with lower stealth.

    The former doesn't really matter as long as you're wearing medable armour and similarly the latter doesn't matter too much as you'll be hitting your opponent from distance as a stealth archer. Passive reveal primarily concerns people who need to get in close such as dexxers and thieves.

    You could drop stealth even lower to free additional skill points and make use of arties such as the shadow dancer leggings, burgalars bandana & cloak of silence. However you then become tied to these items and I prefer having natural ability.

    2. You attack with mortal strikes etc. by using the primary and secondary attack functions of your weapon similar to any dexxer class.

    See this link for details: http://uo.stratics.com/content/arms-armor/specialmoves.php

    3. The problem with the stealth-archer or any stealth-dexxer template for that matter is that it's a tight build as c. 200 skill points are 'tied up' in hiding & stealth. This means that you have to make some sacrifices, which usually means the build doesn't have the survivability of pure warrior / mage templates.

    Bushido may work on the template but its eating into your already limited skill points. You would have lightning strike for improving your HCI & confidence for healing. All the other bushido abilities are rather redundant as your build would be lacking parry.

    Personally I'd opt for some Mace & Shield Glasses (for the HLD) and buy some imbued jewels for increasing your HCI / DCI.

    4. I think the smarter option would be to run small amounts of chiv. Add extra chiv skill points (+13 ea. peice) to your imbued jewels with some FC / FCR. This would enable all the additional buffs of chiv with less skill points used than Bushdio would reequire.

    Alternatively if you're human you can use the Jack of all trades (JOAT) ability to use spellweaving's gift of renewal to provide additional healing.

    5i. Again spirit speak might work. I've seen some stealth-archers running with necro & spirit speak. They use wraith form for mana leech and spirit speak for additional or main source of healing. For your information spirit speak doesn't 'cure' mortal strike, but enables you to heal through the mortal strike, effectively negating its special ability.

    5ii. Stealth-archers with high HP regen. rates are sometimes referred to as 'dog archers'. They run in ninjitsu's dog form, which provides increased HP regen. & add additional HP regen. to their suit. Dog-archers are notoriously survivable & difficult to kill thanks to a combination of HP regen, hiding / stealth & small silhouette.

    6. Llama form is one of my favourite ninjitsu forms. I'm not sure whether its faster than Ki-rin form, I always assumed they were the same. However it does require less ability to use (c. 70) and has 100% success rate at 105 ability.

    Again you could run 70 ninjitsu & add additional skill points through items, but then you become tied to them. This isn't neccessarily a bad thing now though with imbuing and perhaps I'm a little stuck in my ways of preferring real skill over item bonuses.

    A few templates for you to consider:

    (A) Keeping it simple

    120: Archery
    110: Ninjitsu
    100: Tactics, Anat, Heal, Hiding
    90: Stealth
    JOAT: Spellweaving

    (B) Some Chiv
    100: Archery (120 with Hunters Headdress)
    110: Ninjitsu
    100: Tactics, Anat, Hiding
    90: Heal (use enhanced bandies)
    80: Stealth
    40: Chiv (+26 (2 x +13) from imbued jewels = never fail sacred journey or CW iirc).

    (C) Necro-Archer (use spirit speak, spell weaving's gift of renewal & curse weapon for healing. Dog form for increased HP regen. Vampire form for life leech)
    120: Archery
    100: Necro, Hiding
    90: SS, Tactics
    80: Stealth, Ninjitsu
    60: Spellweaving

    Alternatively if you opt to use Wraith form you could drop Necro to 40, which frees 60 addition skill points for SS --> 100, Tactics --> 100, Ninjitsu --> 110, Stealth --> 90 Or add Chiv --> 60
    Hope that helps. I think the key thing is to remember that stealth templates are a matter of compromise and so its always going to be difficult to find one that suits everyones needs / purposes.
  12. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Hi again, and thanks for all the great info from everyone.

    I've been playing my stealth archer a bit lately and I have to say it's GREAT FUN!!! After basically being meals on wheels as my tamer necromage, it's good to be able to pick and choose my fights and to escape and come back or do recon for my guild. I did that just last night wearing a newbie 50 physical resist suit and only having 73 archery.. lol.

    So here's the minimums I'm considering training for my stealth archer:

    Human for JOAT (I have spellweaving quest done, great suggestion)

    100 Archery + 20 from Hunter's Headdress (when I get it)
    100 Tactics
    100 Hiding
    80 stealth + 20 from Shadow Dancer Leggings (when I get them)
    90 Anatomy
    100 Healing
    70 Ninjitsu (for llama, I'll increase it with items)

    This gives me 60 skill points remaining to play with and either bump some of these skills up or add others.

    I'll load up on Hit Chance Increase items so I'm at the cap.

    So now for some more questions:

    1. Is Death strike worth putting the points into if I had to raise Ninjitsu to 110-120 skill? How much damage does it do and how often would I be able to use it - would it be a regular part of my attack sequence? IE dismount, death strike, continue shooting?

    2. Can I drop healing at all to 90 or 80 or is that not a good idea?

    3. Can I drop anatomy to 80 or is that not enough?

    4. 40 base chiv + 26 in items sounds very attractive to always have recall/cure/close wounds. Would the same amount put into magery instead work better for the utility (heals, cures, teleport, recall, bless, etc)? Or am I better off with Chiv?

    5. Would having access to blood oath on my archer, when most reds I run into are archers, be worth making the sacrafice to get? (I assume I would need 20 necro/ss and then a bonus from items)

    6. What is the PVP melee damage increase cap (if any?) Spells are capped at 15% Spell Damage Increase for PVP… just wondering about weaps. Don’t wanna load up on stuff which won’t be needed.

    Last night I was on the champ spawn island in Despise with about 10 reds all fighting each other and barracon. I was only revealed one time which wasn’t directly my fault (running over explosive mushroom, moving too fast, etc)… so I think 100 stealth is working fine for me so far. I wonder if I can trim it down to 80 including item bonuses, that would be really nice…

  13. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    For your 60 points, I would recommend finding a way to free up 40 more skill points and put on 100 spirit speak. This allows you to see ghosts. I know it sounds lame, but it really is fun (and funny) to kill someone and then follow them to the nearest wandering healer to get them again. It also plays as a great support character for group fights to keep people out of the fight.

    I have a character like that and when I'm bored it's a great way to kill an hour or so.

    1.) Death strike is not optimal for an archer. Your DS damage is halved from range attack. Your mana is better spent on moving shot or armor ignore.

    2.) At 90 healing you won't ever fail to bandage yourself. 90 is the minimum.

    3.) Anatomy doesn't necessarily have a minimum number. I'd recommend 90 for damage and it also helps with the amount of damage healed.

    4.) If you have to choose between chiv or magery, go chiv. I wouldn't really recommend relying on close wounds or cleanse by fire during a fight because you'd be better off running and healing with a bandaid. Also - with chiv you can sacred journey and immediately hide, when you recall into your destination you're still hidden. If you do that with magery you will be revealed upon arrival.

    5.) I don't think you'd benefit much from having necro on a stealth archer. Maybe like 60 for a quick painspike to finish someone but even then you need to invest in some faster casting and you're better off not bothering.

    6.) PvP damage increase from items is capped at 100%. DI from tactics/anat/etc isn't part of that cap.
  14. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Thanks for all this info... it's really helping me to determine where the skills need to go.

    I wouldn't rely on chiv during a fight, more than likely i would pop a bandage and then hide if it was that bad. The close wounds would more be to help heal guildies/pets in a fight if needed and i couldnt stand next to them. I like the idea of the hidden sacred journey.

    This is a super tight fit for items but I might be able to make this template to fit in minimum chiv/spirit speak:

    100 Archery + 20 (item)
    90 tactics/healing/anatomy
    100 hiding
    80 stealth + 20 (item)
    70 ninjitsu + ? (item)
    74 spirit speak + 26 (jewelry)
    6 chiv + 26 (jewelry)

    Sacred Journey wouldn't be too reliable though. At what point would it stop failing?

    Can you think of another way to tweak?
  15. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Keep in mind that you need 100 real skill in spirit speak for that to work.

    I guess it depends what you are going to be doing. Are you ever going to be mounted trying to 1 v 1? On my char I actually didn't have heal or anat, I just used pots and hit point regen to heal.

    But if you insist on heal/anat..

    100 Archery + 20 (spirit of totem)
    90 tactics/healing/anatomy
    100 hiding
    50 stealth + 20 (+10 stealth robe, +20 shadow dancer legs)
    100 Ninjitsu
    100 spirit speak
    0 chiv (doesn't have to be reliable, you just have to be able to cast it). Minimum skill to cast it is 15, so JoAT would let you cast it once and a while. If you insist on being able to cast it regularly, I would do it with your jewels. Get jewels like:

    13 ninja, 13 chiv, 13 hci, 13 dci, (whatever is left over in EP, probly 10 or so).

    Drop real skill ninja down to 74, chiv up to 26 real skill. That would put you at 62 skill with items which is more than enough to cast it regularly. You could also play with those skills a bit more and tweak it to however fits your play style.
  16. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Hmm I'd forgotten about cloak of silence, thanks. I won't be mounted ever, not with ninjitsu - no point.

    I don't seem to use my healing skill much now as it is, I always de-engage, dogform, maybe use bandages after fight. I might think about losing it but I think while I "learn the ropes" I will probably want it.

    Do you think 80 total stealth is enough? How often would I passively revealed?

    Thanks for the insight
  17. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    Hard to say. Just stay away from everyone and you'll be fine.
  18. (I don't know if this has been mentioned because I skipped most of it but...)

    While Shadow Jumping for gains if you fail a lot you can be in Rat/Rabbit form and have 20 more Stealth.

    You can also record a UOA macro to Shadow Jump 1 tile North, 1 tile East, 1 tile South, 1 tile West, then change all the lines that say 'target' to 'target relative location', you may need to insert some short delays (500?) between the target relative location and the following cast spell. The point of doing this is that when you fail you will start to head in a certain direction and this ensures that when you end up next to a wall it will still play because one of the lines will always be moving away from it.
  19. [JD]

    [JD] Guest

    Hey good trick with the stealth form, I didnt think of that. I used an oldschool American Macros program and did 1) hide, 2) stealth, 3) walk forward a couple steps, 4) shadowstep back to start point. It wasn't relative targets though so sometimes I would end up in other areas of the room lol. Trained stealth to 97 and Ninja to 75 that way, fairly slowly though I might add - took several evenings.

    I had a PVP experience last night where I repeatedly got revealed by a red guild 3-4x once they knew I was there. I think I might keep stealth at 100 now +20. i think one had detect hidden or something.

    is there a list of skills which must be naturally trained somewhere so I can figure out what I can drop and which need to be naturally trained? Or from this skill list (archery, tactics, anatomy, healing) which must be naturally trained to certain levels?

    also is there any max bonus from items? Like could I plan on having +20 archery from hunter's headdress and then another +13 * 2 from jewelry?

  20. Lynk

    Lynk Grand Poobah
    Stratics Veteran

    May 13, 2008
    Likes Received:
    There is no cap, however, you must have at least 90 real skill to perform secondary specials or 70 to perform primary.