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Discussion in 'UHall' started by kelmo, Mar 16, 2012.
What is this skill?
It's a special skill in that only unlocks after you max out every skill, including and especially Forensic Eval and Camping. You also need at least 2 witnesses to certify that you are profecient in general chat pvp. After sending in 19.99 to a P.O box you get in an email, you can begin to train PvP skill. You will be considered a noob until you GM it. There is no 120 scroll, not every skill needs one.
Thats my version anyway.
I just keep seeing "skill" being mentioned. What is this skill? I am genuinely interested in what PvPers and "others" have to say about this.
Skill would be better phrased as "Meaningful Experience" or "Knowledge of better tactics than the other guy"
One simple warning... I am not interested in trolling.
OK... that is rather bare. Experience, knowledge and tactics... Is that all?
I would also add timing, area control, and implementation of the decided upon tactic.
PvPers... I promise to keep this thread clean. Any personal attacks will be dealt with. I know that many of you wish for more 'action'...
I keep seeing skill used as a term. Let us discuss that. Be open and honest. PvP skill is not a number... What is it? What factors come into play? I do not want to read about any hax... Tired of reading about it.
On a serious note, and you'll have to forgive me for my first post I misunderstood your intentions.
Cetric summed it up in a just couple of words. To me knowledge (especially game mechanics) and experience are very important, and I'll try and give a few examples:
Knowing purge takes off protection, timing cures for right before a heal goes off, leaving poison on to prevent paras/other poisons, not blowing all your mana on specials right off the bat, situational awarness, general game knowledge of timing, etc...
Most of those things are not grasped by new players right off the bat and so comes with experience. Player skill also heavily involves the choices the player makes. Was it the right call to prep a heal before damage instead of interrupting? Did I time my cure right? or Did I just waste my potion early? etc... The more skilled players will generally make the correct choice more often and learn from their mistakes if they did not.
I suspect that you are refering to hearing this phrase thrown around alot in the Bestial suit thread, as you know I made my point in favor of some toning down on the suit. I believe I used "player skill" a number of times and was intended to state that the bestial suit doesn't require any substantial input from a player. With the suit you just lived longer period... little to no thinking involved. Well hope that clears it up a little at least from my point of view, I suspect you may get varying opinions on this subject.
OK. I just liked yer input. I wish it was a little more organized ... but hey. It is a start.
So it is more about experience than "skill"?
Its really just who is better at setting macros and hitting buttons no skill really,I use about 4 or 5 macros on my bard most PVPers i would bet 10 at least you can see it when they speak as they cast 12 spells a sentance !!
It does sort of have that "Wall of text" feeling, doesn't it? - *working on an edit*
I think its more like Skill = Experience and Knowledge / the ability to learn.
You can't really seperate them in my opinion.
A player could die to being paralyzed constantly. (Experience)
Does he have the Knowledge that Resisting Spells or a trap box would help. (Knowledge)
Now what a player does from there says something about his "Skill" at this game.
A synonym for "Skill" would be aptitude.
That's a weird avatar, hahaha.
Obv. it's who can do RNG better .
Let's leave avatars out of this for the time being. If you want wierd look at mine closely...
So OK, macros.
Its sort of hard to explain but...
It really is basically just a knowledge of what to do and when to do it. Most of it is learned from experience, another chunk is just knowing game mechanics. Its not the simplest thing in the world to drop a stone wall right, or bola-teleport for instance. Sounds easy but takes some practice. Other things such as mage dueling/fighting take timing and knowing when to stick this spell here, or that spell there. A dexer revolves around when to use what special and why based on what you are fighting, the health of the target, what the target is doing to you. Field fighting takes into account knowledge of surrounds and warfare tactics, to leave it brief and simple.
Maybe i can go into more detail when im not half asleep.
To put it simply it's managing your resources well, the swiftness of your hand-eye coordination, knowing your keyboard, and awareness of your environment. Managing resources and awareness of your environment are based on knowledge and experience. If you can manipulate either of those to your advantage you will win a lot of fights, even against multiple opponents. Hand-eye coordination is both talent and a skill that can be trained, the more raw talent you begin with, the better (or at least quicker) you'll be able to develop the skill. Knowing your keyboard is purely something you have to learn.
As I see it, PvP skill is like a pianists' skill. Timing, which key to follow with, etc. More to it than just that too, group coordination as well as strategy.
The definition of PvP skills is:
The ability to mash the keyboard in given sequence without missing a key, then beating your chest like a gorilla over your keyboard once you have won and the ability to type faster than your dead opponent in general chat.
Seriously, its about knowing game mechanics. Knowing which tile to teleport too, knowing which spell to cast when chaos is breaking out all around you. Knowing when to run and when to fight.
Most of all its about not panicking when you get attacked, watching what is going on around you and reacting to it, that bit takes skill.
But don't underestimate the keyboard mashing without having to look at your keyboard, even a touch typist is classed as having a skill worth paying for.
Oh, cool, where can I buy this? I'll pay 2mil for each PvP alacrity scroll, and 600k per 0.1 transcendence point.
That's not pvp skill, that's the wanna bes who can't quite cut it against the ones that have real skill.
Please don't troll this thread, it's a very interesting read when taken seriously.
1. Locational Awareness - knowing the area you're fighting in, where the server lines are, what skills will or will not work with that terrain, and how to use it to your advantage
2. Timing - if you know how long effects last, or can judge swing speed, you can get twice the use out of your heals/cures. A good example is poison, a major downside that is often forgotten is that higher levels have longer between ticks. Some skills (animal form/bush confidence) if used properly can actually heal between the ticks fully, or holding off a second or two to apply a bandage/arch cure could keep you from being double poisoned.
3. Knowledge of skills/spells - knowing how skills and spells are used, their ranges, and interaction is crucial. Sometimes you WANT to run through a deathstrike if you know you can dodge the next one and finish them off before they can heal, another good example is knowing from the poison text whether it woudl be more ideal ot arch cure or cure.
4. reaction time - especially for a dexxer, reaction time can make or break the kill. There's always a chance of something you don't expect happening, and being able to change your tactics mid fight based on new conditions is crucial, how fast you can do this is very important
I like this thread! Can any of you folks talk about PvPing as part of a group and what factors make that successful or not? (No, I'm not talking about just having a bigger group, because I somehow think that doesn't always make you successful.)
This is like any fighting sport/event. So it comes down to knowledge, conditioning, and execution. You have a number of participants within the game trying to kill each other with all tools in the game available to do it (tools being skills, items, consumables, pets, summons, fields, and game environment).
PvP requires an in depth knowledge of game mechanics.
Situational Attention and awareness .
The ability to adapt quickly. In PvM you can build a single character which fights almost every monster with the same tactics. In PvP your opponent(s) are actively attempting to counter your tactics and they have the same tools available at their disposal.
The best description i can think of is a doctor who straight out of med school goes into general practice family medicine versus a doctor who goes straight into a busy ER.
They may have the same skills, the same knowledge and the same training. But in the ER each action, impact, and repercussion have to be considered and time is forcing the decisions immediately.
As a result PvP does call to a certain personality type, and as with any game there's a difference in that some people are there for the competition and some are there only to win.
Unfortunately there seem to be way more that only care about the win than those that want to actually compete so the quality of the participants has really gone to the crapper.
I would think that in a group, many of the same factors that are used in PVM or higher level treasure hunting could determine a successful outcome. Organization/utilization of resources: who's best at what, and using them accordingly. Stealth attack, stand behind rezzer, Tank healer, heavy swingers, even ghost cams, are examples
Solo PvP you pay attention to keeping yourself alive and so its easier in a sense, but its all about the individual skill and ability.
In group PvP a player who's not that good at PvP can still contribute by assisting with healing and curing of their group.
Basically effective group PvP allows players to have a little less to worry about if they have a dependable group. A fighter can concentrate on dishing out damage if he doesnt have to worry about healing himself. A tamer will have help keeping their pets alive etc.
In solo PvP you are worried about both offense and defense, but the scope of defense is basically yourself. In group PvP you usually are worried about offense OR defense but the scope of each is larger. In older UO times alot of the larger champ spawn guilds had a few hard core PvPers and then mostly not that great PvPers backing them up. The hardcore PvPers would be dishing out damage and defending against raids, the others would be killing the champ and spawn and healing/curing the defenders.
Typically a groups success is dependent on how well they work together not how many are in the group. Four guys dedicated to killing one guy and keeping each other alive can burn through a disorganized group five times their size.
Very good explanations here. Can't emphasize the "keyboard memory" thing enough. You don't want to have to look at your keyboard or think what to hit. you want to think "I need to cast paralyze" and do it without hesitation.
For Kelmo - Alot of the reason people complain about skill can be summed up rather simply. Lets take the spell Cleansing Winds as an example. There was a time say you had a big fight, and a guy was getting railed. It was important to know when to grab cures or heals, who was grabbing them, when to move, when to stay on screen. On the flip side it was important to know when to poison the guy, when to try to disrupt the crosshealer, etc. Now, one spell can take care of all of it, so it irritates people because they built up this knowledge of how to play better than the other guy, and one spell swooped in and ruined it (and removed curses at the same time!!!) Now you try to work around it, you take people down without curses, you just try to sync them, which is a new tactic to learn so the complaint of the spell has died down, because people started learning how to sync better.
I only play uo to pvp, ive played alot of games but in most cases, uo has better pvp than any console/mmo.
Group pvp has several other factors. As Zero said, solo pvp is about keeping an eye on yourself while taking down the other guy. Group, you have more responsibilities. You have to consider what you can do with your group, rather than just you. Recognize the templates you have in your group and utilize them correctly. Know the strengths and weaknesses of your group, but as Zero said, a group that plays well together can overcome numbers advantages from a disorganized group. In group pvp croshealing is a must, calling targets and getting people on foot is a must as well. Depending on numbers and environment, factors come into play for "choke point" fighting, casting fields and walls, etc.
The best way to truely learn it is joining an established group, and working your way up. Be that random stealth archer that dismounts people and then hides, be that random guy in the back watching everyones healthbar. Being in a vent channel with people that are fighting, you will learn tons, just from what they are asking for.
If you're in factions, skill loss after you die to a faction enemy is a given. I don't want to start a debate about the pros and cons of skill loss, but rather would like to know how do PvPers these days deal with skill loss? If you're fighting as part of a group, do you just stay on the field while you're in skill loss after being rezzed and try to contribute what you can (borrow pots/bandies from someone else?), or do you use the time to go get yourself reorganized? Also, how do you deal with skill loss if you're part of a group and multiple people end up in skill loss? Leader calls a time out and sets a time for everyone to be back and ready to roll again? And if you're fighting on a shard where your guild is a visitor or not every guild member has a house, how do you keep yourself organized and stocked up and housed? Do you bring along or build crafter characters or do you rely on the players of the shard you're visiting to supply most of your consumables? Everyone logs out at inns or you share a house?
Sorry if these might seem like dumb questions, but I'd kind of like to compare what other groups do along these lines and think the information might be beneficial to others thinking to jump into PvP or maybe folks who need to consider branching out to another shard to see more PvP activity.
PvP skill is the correct application of Sun Zu tactics combined with keyboard skill. Pure and simple.
There is a reason for the saying "The best tactics are passed on by the survivors"
I think skill is your ability to read what the other player is doing and counter accordingly, while being perfectly efficient with your timing and use of hot keys. Similar to StarCraft 2, which takes an extreme amount of practice, especially in 1vs1 ladder and tournament play.
To this day I still feel the greatest test of skill on Ultima(and any MMO, really) is mage dueling. There's hardly any room for error when you're up against the best players.
Heh, that reminds me. Now, I was never very good. But, I enjoyed pvp and dueling anyway. Years ago, I used to fight this guy named Xandros on top of the Wrong roof, and he would slaughter me every time. Once in a while I could get on the offense, but that was rare. Eventually I just asked him, "How did you get so fast? Many hours practicing? Smarter hot keys than me? A 9ms ping?" He replied, "Nah, you either get it, or you don't". So true, so true.
This is more of a philosphy but it's more of a feeling in my opinion. A point in which 2 people converge into one movement or balance, like a dance or a breathing of life that fills your emotions within anticipation of your opponents next move. A way of leading the dance or following is where a skill comes in or a knowledge of your opponent.
Understanding the possibilities of what someone might do and then being able to recognize ahead of time how to counter the move with a balance that will allow the dance to remain, prolonging the life of the dance, allowing each of the opponents the time to experience the flow or the execution of each individual move.
My philosphy is, Not to kill your opponent but to beat them into submission, to control your opponent is much harder to do than it is to kill them. If there is a death then both have lost and there is no dance and neither will learn anything from each other. It's the same in Chess. A stalemate is a true win because it forces both the opponents into a situation that is no longer within their control. They have beaten the game by pushing each other. They have caused but only one resolution, that of the experience they have learned.
So, even though one might think that when they have killed someone that they have beaten them, they have only shown how quickly they can lose to their own corrupt power which has no focus or skill or knowledge. It is much harder to save someone and to do so while inflicting life threathening moves is what takes knowledge and understanding.
I like this thread.
From what I can tell, it has something to do with general chat.
I'd be interested in hearing what 3rd party programs work best for those that pvp. Pinco's UI? UOA?
LOL....truthfully...probably "the program that cannot be named".
Note: Evidenc gathered monitoring general chat
The 3rd party program that causes players that come to the bank and say a block of text before saying bank. "11111aaaaaaaaqqqqqqqqqzzzzzzz222222111 bank"
That's purely keyboard macros. The only 3rd pp that would help someone in pvp is one that makes you go faster. It's also real easy to see who those people are.
I was thinking of 3rd party programs that help players reequip weapons and shields and also to chug pots much faster than doing it manually.
I have seen it said in old pvp threads over the years that state "May the player with the best 3rd party program,win." This is why I am completely disinterested in UO PvP.
anything that automates cures and bandeges and hitting boxes and the like would only mess up a competent pvper. A person will time these better than a program could. Yes they are used but only by baddies. Like max said the only thing that truely gives an advantage are teh speeders and client modders. And the client mod only really helps when in a choke where fields are everywhere
That one word can sum up everything that has been posted thus far.
How to bola someone while on foot correctly
Knowing a wall is three tiles wide, and that the target of said wall usually sticks for a second while they move their wrist/mouse (and you have to target a few tiles ahead of them if you are chasing)
Knowing who (enemies and guildies alike) what (trees, buildings, land defects) is around you, and each item(s) (players and terrain) points in battle
Talking/calling a target or task (arguably the biggest factor) I've only known one person that was able to type while PvPing efficiently, Cheech.
Knowing specific template ranges (parabait, low fire, no eval etc.etc.)
Resource count, not only yourself but your enemy as well
Having the people you are fighting with know what you are doing without saying it (effers that break para spams)
Timing of spells/specials (timing dump vs heal)
Eventually learning dump combos
Watching what is being casted on your entire screen (AOE, wall, fields, summons and direct damage)
Who is healing, who is doing damage
Hitting a rez point
Knowing common fall-back positions
Knowing line of sight rules
Know flagging rules
*End of not-so-nutshell*
Probably forgot a few, but situational awareness sums it up completely.
People that use that junk are typically not as good as those that do. The human mind and keyboard macros are more efficient than any 3rd party crap. theres times you are poisoned, that you don't neccesarily want to cure instantly for instance.
I think the single most important pvp "skill" is situational awareness - being aware of who is on screen with you, friend or foe, what their condition is, and what they are doing. I think that this is what separates the truly great pvp'rs from the also rans. Unfortunately some of it will depend on your hardware, but that is unavoidable...
It's what they call "seeing the court" in basketball, or "seeing the ice" in hockey. You can get better with training and experience, but some are just born with a little something extra that allows them to focus on, understand and process information from multiple sources in a way that others who are not born with that "gift", or those genes, cannot.
Define 3rd party programs. UOAssist & EC are quite legit. Would a serious player turn control over to a bot?
legit but still lame that they give so many advantages (though EC does have disadvantages to it too, at least, UOA doesn't really share that). Years ago UOA functions were starting to be added to the ingame macro system to phase out the need for UOA, but for some reason EA stopped after only pulling some in. Thankfully things like bandage self and bandage target you no longer need UOA for, thsoe were the major ones for me, and now that there's actually a bandage icon in game on the buff bar i wasn't using UOA at all anymore, but UOA and the EC enable things like quick chugging of pots, ability to keep 4-5 different weapons in reserve and quickly swap between them (somehow EC also allows you to do this WITHOUT disarming). CC without UOA you can only quick swap between two weapons, but even that is broken if you get disarmed.
For the "other" 3rd party programs, it's not really turning control over to a bot, but what many pvp players do, much to the chagrin to the rest of us, is automate certain tasks allowing them to concentrate more on the fight itself. For instance, it was more common before the pot changes, but before it was EXTREMELY common for players to use "auto-chug" scripts which used the 0 cooldown greater cure pots whenever poisoned, meaning they never even need to realize they're poisoned as they're automatically cured while doing other things, they still do this it's just to lesser effect now that gcures don't cure higher poison 100% of the time anymore. Another thing they tended to do was have "emergency healing" set up to auto-chug heal pots or apply heal stone/etc when low on health, acting kinda like the fairy in zelda because they can just concentrate on healing and fighitng like normal but if about ot die it would heal for them. Another common thing is what's commonly known as speedhacking, which automates nothing but allows the player to move significantly faster than should be possible. I won't go into details on why or how that works here.
Those are obviously HUGE advantages in pvp and are more commonly used than many would like to admit, as much as I dislike all the script miners and such around EA's tailored the game around their activities to the point where, without a lot of work the economy ingame would (at least temporarily) collapse without them, and the bigger issue for now should be eliminating combat (pvm AND pvp) cheats.
For me PvP in UO follows one of my philosophies for all sports/games/work and many other life aspects.
Its not what you can do, its what you can do with it.
Because PvP is the sum of all things brought to the table, character items, skills, abilities, situational awarenesss, reaction time, muscle memory, and quick decision making.
You can give a new player an character with godly gear, legendary skills, and a bunch of resources, but you can pit them against a veteran with half the skill points, minimal gear, and still expect the veteran to win every fight.
This is a damn good thread. I hope other serious PvP folk will chime in.
Remember, all board PvPers will be removed and perhaps lose posting privileges.
This thread is for very serious discussion only... Chest thumpers need not apply.
There's something I think that many who discuss the issue of cheating and illegal third part apps don't understand, or deliberately attempt to obfuscate. The problem with scripting in pvp generally isn't great big scriptzillas that will pvp for you, or control every aspect of your healing, curing and curse removal. Those bloated scripts will generally not perform as well as a skilled player, no matter how well they are written. The scripts that are the problem are small, specific scripts, that most "skilled" pvp'rs like to call "macros". Some of them are key activated, some of them run in the background and only activate when very specific conditions are met.
But it is those small scripts that make a huge difference, are hard to detect, and completely unfair. One that has become popular in recent weeks is a script that automatically throws a supernova potion when certain conditions are met (it may actually be bigger than that, it might also include the casting of a specific spell such as lightning, or a spell trigger bombard, but I'm not 100% certain on that). It is a small script, it's easy to detect when you know what you are looking for, but it is easy for the people that use them to explain them away and say things like, "Oh I just have [short macro description] on my [key]."
But that one little script is the difference between a nasty "dump" or "kill shot" sequence, and a thoroughly devastating one. It is a small script, but it is often the difference between a win and a loss. And there are many similar very specific situational scripts that might not seem like a big deal when looked at in isolation, but will in specific situations make the difference between a win or a loss. How many times have certain pvp'rs been saved by a "pot chugging" script that only activates when certain conditions are met, and the player is at 20% or 10% health? The player will claim they are "skilled" and most of the time they are skillfully handling their own healing, curing and curse removal, but when the situation is desperate and they need to be able to simply run without having to worry about keeping themselves alive at the same time, that little script will save their butts more often than not, and make them extremely difficult to finish off.
RE: 3rd Party programs. Other than UO Assist which allows EC functionality in the CC, and Automap/Mapper which allow you to keep track of groups and locations, the only other App that I would be willing to use is Vent/Teamspeak for group communication. That's not to say that there aren't other applications out there. PvP occupies the majority of my time in UO with everything else I do usually being some goal toward improving my PvP capabilities. I love to PvP but for me its less about the winning and more of just the fighting so a good fight is more of a reward and a win is like the candles on the cake. If the cake is crappy no amount of candles will make it taste better.
I just don't see any value in a win gained by cheating.
Well, I'm used to you/yours by now but I get the hint.